I've already explained once why this is not accurate, though it may have been in the Harbinger thread. Pre-30%, Juggernauts get to use V.Throw on a 20 second cooldown. Sub-30%, it's on it's normal cooldown of 6 seconds, with a total of 4 every 20 seconds. This is not an insignificant DPS increase. I will allow that Juggs are closer to "capped" than any class other than Mercs, but they are not running dummy parses at 100% of their potential, despite what Austin said on some website or anorther around 2.0 launch.

The Internal on Rampage (Ravage proc) is pretty simple, and there's really not much to keeping track of it. If it procs off Impale, then it can proc again when Impale comes off cooldown. If it procs off Shatter, it can proc again when Shatter cooldown is =< 3 seconds (It's even easier if you follow Shatter with Impale, then you use Impale's CD to keep track). V.Throw will proc every 20 seconds if you keep your bleeds up, 24 seconds at the outside, and besides, with it's 15 second timer, you don't have to watch it or track it too close: when it procs, simply find some place to slip it in. Rampage procs fail, without a doubt, but in the fights where we can take full advantage of Rampage, we're taking enough damage that we can afford to use heavier hitting abilities in those occurrences, thus making it less painful (in regards to DPS) in a raid scenario than when parsing on a dummy.

I'm sure one of us can round it up. I trust an achievement pic will suffice at this point. Here you go.

4/36/6 It's really the only spec for Vengeance. Depending on what you are doing, you can swap the 2 points from Deafening Defense to Seething Hatred.... it's a nice convenience ability for Dailies and FPS, but DD is a must for raiding. I've not been to Noxxic lately, but if they failed on something that basic, then yeah, I would just delete your link to that site.

For PvE, it would be worthwhile to gain proficiency with both specs. There are some fights where one is better than the other.

Pretty sure they made taunts unable to miss. I run zero accuracy in gear when tanking (94% with Vengeance + companion) and don't have issues with threat.

Bias against melee, else I'd offer offer my Guardian for your weekend runs.

Full boss duty or were you chasing snipers?

Rage is just as reliant on RNG as Vengeance - just in different ways. If Rage has horrible crit rates on non-smash abilities, its DPS (particularly ST) is going to be on par with what you typically see out of Assassins. Vengeance needs Rampage procs - it doesn't need high crit rates. Rage needs good crits on abilities other than Smash to even compare for ST damage. If only the ranged would leave them alive past my first S.Slash.

Top-tier Anni marauders should outdo Vengeance, unless the Jugg gets some crazy RNG love w.r.t crits/procs. But as far as burst goes, we're talking Ravage > Impale > V.Throw > Scream > Ravage in an ideal world. Timed with Bloodthirst, relic, and adrenal, you're looking at numbers like Ravage : 4k 4k 9k (2.5 2.5 5.5) 17k / 10.5k (crit/non) - 3 seconds Impale : 7k (4.5k) 24k / 15k - 4.5 seconds V.Throw : 8k (5k) 32k / 20k - 6 seconds Scream: 6k (6k) 38k / 26k - 7.5 seconds Ravage : 4k 4k 9k (2.5 2.5 5.5) 55k / 36.5k 10.5 seconds Obviously getting crits on all abilities is not likely, and I guesstimated numbers based on some of my own logs, but even with zero crits, this combination (again, with BT/Relic/Adrenal) is pumping nearly 3.5k DPS. If we assume 30% crit through that phase,over 4k DPS. *This is not an ideal rotation, and is not sustainable. It also requires a bit of luck and preparation to build this exact scenario. And actually, you should probably substitute Shatter in for V.Throw and put it in front of Impale (if the boss is above 30%), but I don't want to rework the numbers. Sub-30, you can expect to add another V.Throw in after either Ravage.

Good Jugg DPS will put out better burst than an Anni Marauder, especially when paired with a Marauder in a group, and depending on the fight, will come close to equaling Anni for sustained. A well played Carnage marauder is second only to a well played sniper, but Carnage is also one of the toughest specs to play optimally. We will never (with current class designs) come close to touching a good Carnage Marauder. There are plenty of DPS Juggs around, and the Jugg forums are full of DPS threads and conversation. As far as pros in PvE: You get taunt, which is great to have for a number of fights. Saber Reflect is a stupid good ability. You can target swap effectively. You have some decent mobility tools is group situations. In Vengeance, you have a number of toys that really help you survive. In Rage, you have an extremely simple rotation. PvE cons: Without some kind of target to use as an anchor, your mobility is horrible (Titan 6 huge grenade). In Rage, you are farily squishy (not PT DPS bad, but still pretty bad). In Vengeance, you have to know the fight mechanics almost inside and out to maintain effective DPS on a number of fights, more so than any other class I've played. You have to work much harder to put yourself on par with other classes. It plays identical to the Guardian, just with different animations and skill names, so if you got bored of the combat there, you won't find much difference here. Story/Companions are matter of taste, so I won't compare the two.

Strictly by the numbers, Shatter + its bleed comprise a higher percentage of your total damage than Impale + bleed. That, combined with the longer CD on Shatter really do put it at the higher priority. Even if they were equal, you want to prioritize from longest cooldown to shortest, not the other way around.

It really depends upon the Juggernaut's role within a group. When I run Vengeance with my guild, my job is not AoE, it's sustained damage on the boss, and in that role, I am right up there with our Marauder. If you were able to quantify skill and find two players that were exactly equal in skill, one Rage and one Vengeance, the Vengeance player would do better damage to their primary target for most fights - Dash'roode really being the only absolute exception here. The Rage player would have higher total parse numbers for many fights, but would lag behind on boss DPS. There are obviously some exceptions (Dash'roode being 1, Thrasher adds being the other, though in favor of Vengeance)., but by and large Vengeance should parse higher against single targets. If you are consistently parsing just as high with Rage, then you are simply better with the Rage rotation than you are with the Vengeance rotation.

Yes, it is.

Because most of our 8m setups have 3 melee if I stay on the Jugg. I'm going to be running Sniper for most of our NiM stuff, so I'm gearing the Jugg out to be a tank-in-a-pinch.

427 Accuracy will get you to 99.91, assuming you take the Accuracy talent in Vengeance. 395 (5 accuracy pieces at the 72-tier of gear) will put you at 99.51%, which is sufficient in most peoples' minds. I believe it's going to be at right around 435 that you get to 99.99. After you reach that threshold, you should be stacking nothing but Surge in your tertiary stat slot. In full 72s, that is roughly 400 surge. As far as crit rating goes, most folks are advocating running zero crit in their gear, while I personally prefer to run between 150-200. That is, however, after I obtained all of my 72 gear. While in the process of gearing up, I would suggest sticking to the full power approach, and worry about fine tuning down the road. On Relics: Assuming you not at the Kell Dragon tier, the current best paring is the Underworld Serendipitous Assault and either the Underworld Boundless Ages or the Dread Guard Boundless Ages. Elite War Hero Boundless Ages is not a bad pick either, as its passive power makes for one less thing to manage mid-fight. We will see how things shake out after 2.3, when they allow damage proc to stack with power proc relics, but until then, the SA /BA combo is the better choice for most fights.

A couple things I noticed as well (I had typed out a long critique earlier but inadvertently refreshed the page): 1. As Ark mentioned, pair OS with BS. 2) There were several points in your parse where you just completely skipped BS. I think it's about 30 seconds in or so where there is a sequence of PB > OS > Dispatch > PD > OS or something similar... Point is, you didn't use BS a very long time and were just wasting stacks of the proc. Edit: Found the sequence I was talking about... It's not exactly what I described, but still not very good. I cleaned out the bleed ticks to make it easier to read: You could have (should have) fit BS in before Master Strike here.

Break 3k with Loufucai; Lift's becoming a tank and I'm forgetting how to play Vengeance.

I get the full-power argument. I used it in Vengeance for quite some time. I just happened to have changed my stance lately, and I find myself getting better results in both specs with some crit in my gear. This is hard to evaluate, though, because there are a large number of different variables between the fights than just my gear, so I can't just line the data up side by side and make straight comparisons.

I'm still not sold on the zero crit gearing for Rage.... Gonna do some tests here soon to compare, but non-scientific observations have been leaning towards a modest amount thus far.

Don't forget Unstoppable. Scream/V.Throw then leap back at under 4 seconds on the channel. As for the adds in phase 3, I find that I do better just burning the Affliction mob and AoE taunting the others for death by DFA/Orbital. I would like to run Rage for this fight because we have been running 3 melee groups for the most part and Rage offers more flexibility for kiting, but I just can't beat the DPS check on Heirad with Rage.

Most Rage specs do not take the Ravage talent. To obtain it, you would have to either drop 6% strength or 2% accuracy. Neither one is a fair trade, in my mind. Dropping the 6% strength talent would drop melee bonus damage by roughly 4%, which impacts Obliterate, V.Throw, V.Slash, two of which far out-damage Ravage in Rage spec. Dropping 2% accuracy means dropping a lot of surge to make up for it in gear, which means substantial losses to Smash damage. As far as single target vs. multiple target, it's not as simple as that anymore. Look at a fight like Dash'roode. Yes, it has lots of adds, which allows for Rage to pull 3k + on that fight. But if you look at single target DPS,(ie: DPS strictly on Dash) well played Rage will outdo Vengeance. There are a number of single target fights where Rage has the advantage right now.

As far as best, this is still on the front page. You can get the DG Boundless Ages easily enough - 150 Classic comms (classic ops, level 50 FPs, daily quests). The tokens for Underworld and Kell dragon relics drop off Hard / NiM Dread Guards in TfB. Arkanian can be purchased for basic comms. (Edit: You can also find crafted Underworld/Arkanian relics for sale, most likely, though that, of course, depends on the availability on your server.) Vendors are in the fleet Supplies area (where most PvE endgame gear is purchased)

I just pointed out the absolute worst Vengeance parse that I could imagine in my last post. Here it is. Some highlights: Ravage - Used once every 25 seconds : 1 Rampage proc in 3 minutes - 8% crit rate Impale - Used once every 10.5 seconds - 1 miss Scream - Used once every 10.5 seconds Shatter - Used once every 14.3 seconds This is essentially as bottomed out at Vengeance gets. Had I continued that parse out to at least 5 minutes and the same pattern held out, 2650. That's it. Rage parses (for me) typically vary between 2700 and 2850. Vengeance, up until this parse, usually runs between 2700 and 2950. More often than not, I am in the 2825-2900 range. I have never seen, in any of my parses, such a perfect storm of bad luck. Here's the thing, though. If this parse had happened to me on say, Dread Guards, it wouldn't have been as dramatic of a failure, due to forced downtime in that fight, and windows where one wouldn't use Ravage anyways.

We are looking for 1-2 solid healers and 2-3 DPS. Folks that are versatile in their roles/have multiple characters are preferred, but again, competence is more important than class. We are 2/7 NiM S&V after minimal pulls. Not put any time in on Thrasher as of yet - more players that are consistent will allow for more 16m days throughout the week, and thus, faster/better progression.