True enough, except that there is no way of knowing whether or not those Lazed snipes would have crit (which is different than should, obviously), so your range is then more accurately reflected as zero to ~43 DPS.

It lasts long enough that I assumed this to be the case.... OS > Laze > Ambush > Shatter Shot (if needed) > FT > Snipe.

Or by doing simple math: Snipe does in the ballpark of 2.8-3k non-crit. (Based upon my Sniper's gear, which is full-UW) Assuming 70% surge, a 2.8k Snipe would crit for 4760, near enough to the 2k that I used for my napkin math. 2k damage * 6 crit snipes over 5 minutes = 12000 damage. 12000 damage / 300 seconds = 40 DPS. (side note: 50 may have been a bit high for the upper range, 44-45% is likely a accurate more high-point at the 5 minute mark) *This, of course, is not factoring in power adrenal/relics. It's also assuming a low Surge rating at only 70%. (I'm' not near consistent enough in my rotation to be able to do side-by-side parses, so I have to make my determinations based on what I see on paper. If those of you that play the class better than I care to test on the dummy, feel free.)

I wrote my thoughts out and prepared to submit it in your thread on the Sniper forums, but realized that my opinions are entirely selfish from the standpoint of a PvE MM sniper. I don't play the other specs (honestly don't care to learn them, nor is it needed) and I don't PvP on the Sniper. I see the value of the change for Lethality in particular (which is a spec I would play with if it got some love), but selfishly, I just want what I am accustomed to to stay the way it is. Edit: As far as "miniscule," we're talking a range of 40-50 DPS in a 5 minute fight with the current Laze. I'll let you decide whether that qualifies as "miniscule."

With the timers listed in that thread, this would be a slight nerf for Marksman in regards to total overall damage in a number of fights (basically, unless the fight lasts longer than 5 minutes but less than 6, it is an overall decrease in dealt; as soon as you hit the 6 minute mark and get your 7th Lazed Snipe in against just 3 Lazed Ambushes with the new cooldown, the old version wins out)

I emphasized the comment that lead to my conclusion, which is not tied directly to the question asked, and specifically mentions classes that can taunt. Edit: Besides, the "full potential" comment is just ridiculously inaccurate. Playing Carnage Marauder to its full potential (which is not the same as playing it to outperform other classes) is the most difficult/complex thing in this game. Especially compared to maxing out the potential of any Jugg spec.

Raising Shatter to a 45% proc rate will not increase our top end DPS (our DPS cap, if you will) at all. With regards to Rampage, that is determined by the 9 second internal cooldwon. The Shatter proc increase will just make the higher windows of DPS easier to achieve consistently. The easiest DPS buff that they could give Vengeance (though certainly not the best) would be to make our non-rotational abilities (ie: not Impale, Shatter, Scream, Ravage) more powerful. This would give us the ability to keep competitive (though not amazing) DPS through the bad RNG runs, while letting the good RNG fights get a little more bang in the (very few) filler windows that come during a good proc fight. It would also shift the burden of our DPS away from t hose core abilities slightly, meaning that in PvP Vengeance Juggs could feel less pressure to get a Ravage off, yet still have it provide the burst when they are able to use it through a full channel.

A hint of what to expect as a DPS Juggernaut, gotten from the Sorc Q&A: I read that as Bioware changing their stance on DPS specs across the classes. Their apparent stance is that our off-specs are part of our "full potential." So off-healing or off-tanking because the healers or tanks failed at doing their job means that in the eyes of Bioware's current combat team, multi-role classes' DPS specs should not be compared to Marauders/Snipers. Bioware has just endorsed running nothing but Sniper/Mara DPS. (A little over dramatic at the end, but I'm allowed that now and again )

Yeah, that's what I was using, but the overlay that lists abilities in order of overall damage is what I'm missing. Aside from that small complaint, I'm really liking it thus far.

I really like the layout and overall appearance of the main UI. The combat log filters are great and will be a wonderful tool for post-fight analysis... Much, much easier than an F3 search on TORparse. The one thing that I've noticed that TORparse has that Parsec is missing is a pop-out for the "Damage Dealt" info, which is quite handy for on-the-fly tweaks while on the dummy. Will see if folks are willing to try the raid parsing with this program tonight, but it looks like that will be a simple process to setup; it's just a matter of how well it actually works.

Sadly, I will never get the chance to reclaim my spot.

If I said or implied that PTs and Sins had more/better group utility, that was unintended. Sins have the ability to stealth rez, as do Ops. PTs are on par with Juggs in pure damage, bu Juggs have the edge for armor debuff, except that it is usually a redundant ability. Sins need help, no doubt about that, but we need to look after our own first. Operatives have some of the highest damage potential in the game, so their utility is irrelevant.

If I said or implied that PTs and Sins had more/better group utility, that was unintended. Sins have the ability to stealth rez, as do Ops. PTs are on par with Juggs in pure damage, bu Juggs have the edge for armor debuff, except that it is usually a redundant ability. Sins need help, no doubt about that, but we need to look after our own first. Operatives have some of the highest damage potential in the game, so thier utility is irrelevant.

Maybe not "many," but the ones that are there are quite significant.

Welcome to the club, though bear in mind that they only posted some of the 2.4 content to the PTS. No operations or PvE stuff was put on the PTS, so it is possible that more class stuff is forthcoming. (note: possible does not equal likely) For true burst, Rage is the spec. We have"burst" in vengeance right now by only the widest confines of that term - a 12 second window of 4K-5K DPS.

But, I enjoy a good back-and-forth. And as much as I was joking, I also like the idea of a full out bleed/DoT spec, it would require some other changes, but I think something as simple as leaving Ravage at 30 seconds would help balance it out.

Drop Jedi Warden and grab Accuracy and Perseverance.

There is nothing subjective about facts. Titan 6: Juggernauts Marauders Thrasher: Juggernauts Marauder My parses, which are all 2+ months old and not very impressive any more (I'm not even top 5 for 16m Juggs anymore), would still be in the top 30 for Marauders (on all SV fights); which would qualify as better than "a good percentage." So not to try to discredit your retort, but at face value your statement is highly pointless. The point I was getting at is that there is a very basic problem with our class when I can switch to a class that I've never played before, and with the absolute bare-minimum of effort, out perform the class that I worked on perfecting for the last 5 months. I am mediocre at best on Sniper, but I still bring more to any raid on the Sniper than my Juggernaut does. A change to Enraged Defense won't change that. A viable threat dump would do as much as nothing to change that. And the proposal to change how Rampage works will, if not done perfectly, destroy what is so enjoyable about playing this class. Besides, the proposal that I saw would just make us more consistently hit the same numbers that we already hit, while eliminating the chance of having a good burst window. If we're that dead-set on making drastic changes to Vengeance, then I go back to a tongue-in-cheek proposal that I made elsewhere: Up the bleed damage on Impale and Scream and give us a weakening blast/deathfield type debuff to apply and make it a full on bleed spec. As far as the auto-crit V.Throw, they changed that entire mechanic, and if they were to give us that back, then you would see it no longer build a stack for Scream, and with the rotation works presently, you would be giving up every other auto-crit Scream for a crit V.Throw, which would result in an average ~65% crit rate on Scream, assuming 30% Force Crit chance. Though with the 20 second internal on V.Throw, you can probably get half of those non-auto Screams with 1 stack, so that would put you up to a ~78% crit rate on Scream coupled with a 100% crit rate on V.Throw. Now, that's really quick napkin math, and it is subject to inaccuracies due to the exact timeline of cooldowns, but I would still put Scream crit at somewhere between 60-80% to gain 100% crit on V.Throw. Even if I'm overestimating by 10% on the Scream crit rate, that is a very sizable damage increase, and quite likely over the top.

Sadly, I already out-parse a good percentage of Marauders out there. The problem is, even as bad as I am on Sniper/Marauder, I parse above the Jugg with those.

You are out of touch if you think we are the "third highest parsers" in a field littered with Marauders, Operatives, and Snipers. We also fall behind Sorcs and Mercenaries, largely due to their ability to ignore a number of mechanics with range, but on the dummy parses as well. We are on about even ground with Powertechs, and ahead of Assassins in generic DPS. A viable threat dump, while it would be nice to have, pales in comparison to the fact that we have no real raid utility. We are viable, but you can't say anything more than that. Viable does not cut it in end-game PvE, which is why some of the top Juggernauts have switched mains - Loufucai and Ark to Marauder apparently, and I to Sniper. I laid out the basic groundwork for what should be the PvE question, and I feel no motivation/obligation to flesh it out any further. Trying to prioritize Enraged Defense and a threat dump over the lack of reason to take a Jugg DPS on a raid (aside, again, for the player behind the toon) is just a horrible decision.

If Sniper wasn't so stupid easy to succeed with, I'd gladly put the Jugg on some of these boards, but circumstances have dictated that the sniper is the better choice for us to catch up with the content. I'm getting a NiM run or two in on the Guardian lately, so I'll see what I can do with him, instead.

It stands to reason that this would be the case. They've got more gear and more time in on the fights to sort out their approach. That said, my Dash parse was in 2 verpine implants (one unaugmented), over-capped accuracy (due to the 2 bad implants), and only 1 piece of 75 gear in my bracers. As to the rest, don't bother with a separate category, in my opinion. Vengeance Jugg, in particular, can push huge numbers on a fight like T6 if his group setup allows him to do so. It just doesn't happen because they fit a different role better, and there's usually a better suited class to handle adds. Besides, there are numerous factors that go into these parses beyond class, that if you start making special tracking for the under-appreciated classes, then you might as well start making one for the guy who got doomed three times in a row, choked twice, and had to place 6 red circles.

When this conversation took place, I'm fairly certain that none of the guilds that had killed DGs did so with 3 melee. Our first kill, incidentally, was with 3 melee. Edit: This is, of course, regarding Nightmare mode.

There are currently 5 melee DPS classes (Marauder, Juggernaut, Assassin, Powertech, Operative). Amongst these classes, each brings its own group benefits. The current DPS output currently places Juggernauts solidly above Assassins, about on par with Powertechs, and well below Marauder./Operative, while also being noticeably lower than all 3 ranged DPS classes. Our raid utility is easily supplemented elsewhere (Juggernaut tank, Sniper, Arsenal Mercenary), and our actual DPS potential is, while viable, unimpressive. The only thing that we have unique to our class is Intercede, which can have some situational usefulness in a raid setting, but is largely unimpressive. What role do you envision DPS-specced Juggernauts fulfilling in a raid setting, do you feel we are meeting this desired role, and what tools/features have you/will you provide Juggernaunts that make them desirable in a raid setting? Could use a little fluffing up, but I feel it's much more critical to get some attention upon this than dealing with Enraged Defense. Especially when you consider that this Q&A really doesn't seem to be designed as a forum for requesting/advocating specific mechanical changes.

8m Dread Guards 2871 DPS - Bijje - Sniper - Marksman - 36/8/2 http://www.torparse.com/a/383677/1/0/Damage+Dealt 8m Operator IX 2079 DPS - Bijje - Sniper - Marksman - 36/8/2 http://www.torparse.com/a/383677/1/0/Damage+Dealt Gear: KD Relic/Belt, all other 72s.