Agree with this too. I want my own data. I don't need others spamming theirs at me.

This I agree with. Hate meters in raids, or e-peen contests. Love meters to better my own output, and figure out gear/trait differences.

Facts are provable. Unless you've met every player and personally asked, it's not even remotely fact. That word gets used too much.

I find it really, really funny how many comments here are assuming it's some DPS e-peen thing, and find that offensive, even though they have no clue that's why it was asked for. Leveling a healer. And I'd like meters. So, people take issue at me wanting to maximize how well I heal them? Truly?? Do healers even number boast? Zomg, I healed your face off, lolz... There's max one healer per group usually. Who am I racing with??? Accept that some people want them for personal improvement. You may not agree it outweighs whatever imagined evils you are fighting against, but some people DO use them for nothing beyond personal improvement.

Not a knockdown argument, it's a difference of opinion, nothing more. He said he wanted it. You said you wanted him not to have it. At the end of the day, there is no discussion here. You don't need a lot of things in a game. But people want a million different things. At the end of the day, someone is going to want to paint their ship, someone will want LFG, and some will want meters. And of course, you'll have opposing camps for each. I don't like addons. But I do like accurate totals after the fact.

Output meters trivialize nothing. Many addons in other games do, but output readouts do not. They reflect what has already been done.

And what is wrong with wanting it? Especially mostly solo players? How does it affect anyone else if you are using it to help guide your gear and talent selection, outside of groups, or bosses? I've seen little arguments against those who want it for personal information, nothing more.

You can glance at an addon, or treat a game like a job and hire a math professor to work through the deviations. Me? I like to glance up now and again, and say hey! that alacrity seems to be helping! Let's look for some more gear with that! But yeah, wanting data is always bad and anyone asking for it must be e-peen focused...sigh

Think about it? Ok, I'm thinking about it. Does speeding up your cast time by 20%, for a handful of seconds, every two minutes outweigh the benefits of a 10% increase to a certain attack with a 5 second cooldown? What about when you factor in further traits, and their interplay? Does that cast time get better as my force crit improves, or become less useful? If in my rotation, I opt to use 40% instant casts, does the value of that haste talent decrease? Enough to chose another talent? Yeah, I'm sorry, having thought about, I ended up concluding I need more data. I need to see my output using both options to get a sense of that. My mind cannot work out all the interplay, and how it interacts with other options. Had I some meters, I could glance at my output on similar packs with different gear/traits, and better understand my class and their gear/trait options. Oh, and the above has zero to do with others, grouping, or having the game do anything for me in the slightest.

No, I'd like a tool to accurately let me know what I have already done. That way, in choosing future gear/traits, I'm informed. Alacrity better for sorcerors than force crit? Willpower more useful than...? etc. etc. I don't study the game. I don't read threads telling me how to trait. I don't do cookie cutter. I play, I learn as I play, and I adapt. Meters help me learn, nothing more. I should know the damage or healing I output.

Start a thread about those addon types then. This one is on meters. I expressed why the argument he made equating meters to bots was wrong. You assume one leads to the other. I'm simply arguing the meters. I find them useful, and am far from hardcore, and would never use anything that tells me how to play.

You made bad assumptions. You assume everyone min/max's. Not everyone who uses meters are hardcore players. I'm a bit new to the game. I have no clue if alacrity or more force crit is more beneficial to my L37 sorceror. I fight the same mob packs often. With meters, I could give myself an idea of my output level using each, and understand my class a bit better. Or I could blindly guess. Some people just like information.

None of those are meter problems. Meters do not make choices for you. They are not automated button pushing machines. They do nothing but give information. What people do with that information can be positive or negative.

Good drivers don't need a speedometer to be good drivers. But that tool remains useful as a pacing device, and most drivers, need em or not, will glance at them to help determine pace. Same way I see meters. A sometimes useful tool to glance at.

Mature, mostly solo player who would like them for self-improvement. I have zero clue which traits are helping my output and to what degree. Same with gear. Meters are also useful to people confused between multiple gear/trait choices, as it helps show the effects of those choices. You don't need a speedometer to be an excellent driver. But, most still glance at it now again to get a sense of their pace.

I got my first cripple communication bonus last night. Been wasting missiles on that thing for days, glad to find out it DOES actually do something. Definitely been looking for others since then.

Because a lot of people left WoW for a reason. Copying the guy who lost record subscribers doesn't seem overly bright on paper either. I'm not saying there are not many things in WoW that would be great here. Of course there are. That game had 7 years, and literally billions of dollars to perfect their product. So yeah, some things they developed make gaming enjoyable. But I don't want this to BE that MMO. People are leaving WoW, and with good reason. Played from release til about 2 years back, and it was going downhill fast.

People keep posting, I see no bumps. I'd like meters, but not for a single reason you listed. I enjoy them personally for self-improvement, nothing more. To me, personally, it helps with talent and gear selection. Does my Sith Inquisitor get more bang for his buck speeding up casts? Should I focus instead on more willpower? Meters let you try each, see how each affects your output, and helps me make informed opinions on things I'm otherwise a little lost on. Has nothing to do with groups, instances, or gauging others, at least to me.

You don't need a speedometer to be a good driver. But, it is helpful in assessing your pace, and I know few who don't glance at it once in awhile. Same things with meters. Don't need them to be a good player, but, they do help people assess their own output, and can be a useful tool.

Early WoW had thin end game, so they compensated with ridiculously long "key" quest lines. Getting keyed for Ony was a chore. Getting into MC was also a chain through LBRS/UBRS. Still, at the end of the day, MC/Ony was the only end game content. Ony was downed by March? MC by April? And BWL was out in June or July. There was definitely forum posts about lack of end game for some raid guilds, not to mention, a lot of complaints of "key" series, and resistance checks used as a stall mechanic for lack of content. /shrug

From the handful from MMO's I've seen, end game is thinnest at launch. Which makes sense, given the leveling arc. After release, very little resources generally go back into the leveling areas (which also makes sense, as the populace is on average at max level later), and more resources are allocated to end-game content. Pretty standard, so I'd say, if you do like the game, just be a bit patient. You are ahead of the curve, and most focus will begin to fall on end game.

You know, your car doesn't need a speedometer for you to be an excellent driver. But I don't know many people who don't glance up now and again, just to check their pace. Kinda feel the same way about meters. Not much more than a self-check on pacing, but something a lot of folks like to have available.

I like meters for character betterment, nothing more. Spamming sets of attacks is great fun. But to me, not knowing which series of attacks hits the hardest takes away from my fun. I like to know how I'm doing. Not out of any 'leet need, or group analysis. Just me, even solo'ing. So I'd like to see them added.

Many gaming companies use 3rd party engines, MMO's included. Dark Age of Camelot - Gamebryo engine Lineage 2 - Unreal Engine Some popular games, outside of MMO's GTA - Renderware Morrowind - Gamebryo And lately, there is a ton of "middleware" being used in game creation. Elder Scrolls used SpeedTree for many environmental effects. Civ 5 used ForkParticle in their game. Havok is an example of a popular middleware application.

You are misunderstanding what I said entirely. Do I feel bad for those who can't play? Sure. But, is the fact that some people are having issues the same as entire servers being MIA for weeks? Someone said it was. That's all I replied to.