Then be ready to say that nothing will beat WoW in the next 5 to 10 years most likely. Because while I get your statement, people like to look past the fact that WoW of today is WoW + expansion + expansion + expansion. You paid over $200 for that game, not including fees. So I guess until someone comes along and plans to charge you $200 base for a game that includes 4 expansions worth of material, you won't be satisfied. I agree, you can't compare something today to something 8 years ago. Good argument. But you ignore the flip side. You shouldn't compare a base game to a game that includes 3 expansions, and 6 years of material either.

Elder Scroll and other sandbox types games are pretty non-linear. P.S.: I have no issue with the linear nature of this game. Just replying to the question posed.

Agree, but, on the flip side, people who believe that the purchase of the game + 1 month in fees ($80) should get you the same as you get with Warcraft, it's 3 expansions, and 7 years of fees ($1500), are comparing apples to oranges.

It needs tons and tons and tons of work. That said, to me, it is better at the start than several other MMO's I went through launch with, so I'm hopeful. Enjoying it.

Similar boat, and it looks like a solid purchase to me. I've been watching Newegg, and often compare their ibuypower and cyberpc computers with similar ones you can buy directly from those two sites. And inevitably, newegg is cheaper than a similarly built computer directly. Thinking it has to do with them using slightly older motherboards on the newegg builds compared to builds directly on the site. Don't think these newegg sales use the P67, Z68, X79 motherboards they use if you buy direct. But with the lower cost, I think it's worth it, and will probably go the same route.

True, but when determining something potential, you do compare their first year. Be like saying Charlie Batch is a better QB than Cam Newton. I mean Charlie has 10,000 yards, and Cam only 4,000! But when you mention to folks Cam played 1 year, and Charlie 8+ years, they stop comparing that, and compare their rookie seasons to guess where Cam is heading. If you expected a brand new MMO to beat an 8 year, billion dollar backed project, I'd say you entered with unrealistic expectations.

Exactly. We made it to the Ragnaros fight by March/April I think, but couldn't kill it until like May/June. Took almost 2/3 months to get 40 people geared into their asbestos suits to win. There was not a lot of content. Ony/MC. 9 raid bosses in 2 raid zones for the first 7 months til BWL. It lasted due to insane keying quests (which they later dropped), and hard resistance checks (which they later added gear drops to make easier to get to).

Any of the 5/10 were open, and you could form a 40 man raid and run em all. UBRS, the only 15 man, needed a key to get in, but anyone keyed could open it for anyone else, regardless if they finished the key line. That was the first few months only, and you couldn't complete quests in that 40 man format. So people would gather 40, run it, drop group, form a fast 10 man, complete quest, re-form. Cheaters paradise! But Ony and MC, the only two real raids, were all there was for the first 7 months. They were stretched out with 20+ part keying questlines, and eventual resistance checks (fire in MC) on the bosses. Both were stall tactics, because content was thin til BWL and after.

Because they went through a zillion patches early on that majorly changed everything. WoW was a mess at release, and changed drastically in the first 6 months. People need to sit back and give this game 6 months to adjust itself.

Scholo and Strat were 10 mans originally. They become 5 mans much later. And in the early going, you could run 40 through in a group, making it a joke. But you're right, it was not end game.

WoW released Nov '04. Through June '05, there were 2 raids only. (Raids being 40...15/10/5 being something else altogether) The two 40 mans were Onyxia and MC. However, you couldn't walk right in. There were quest lines to become "keyed". The Ony chain was very long, and included runs through some of the 5/10/15 mentioned before you could enter. MC had 8 bosses (?), and due to some "resistance" fights, quite a bit of side gearing was needed to beat a few early on. So yes, 2 raids in the first 8 months of the game. They were stretched with long keying quests to enter, or gear checks with resistances, which let them last a bit. BWL was the 3rd raid zone, released in June/July '05. And yes, some guilds finished MC in April/May, and the forums rang with calls of "need more endgame", though in honesty, the majority of players never got done with MC before BWL was available.

Nothing. Trying this one out. Nice to see proper posting again = )

Hey...that name looks familiar. I used to know a rogue that looked a lot like you

Bioware and Blizzard made fabulous games. EA and Activision purchase studios that make good games. I'll credit the creators, and not the megalithic corporations who buy and sell them.

No flame. A good post. But, I don't raid. I don't even group much. I'm an L37, who likes meters, because they help me figure out excellent synergies I may not have seen. There are 90 trait choices. They inter-depend on each other. Gear factors in, as do the abilities I use. Meters just help me improve. Should I go with alacrity as a healer? Or is crit going to help my output more? Will that change if I drop 10 talent points here, and move them there? Just saying, there exist players who like to do the best they can. They probably played Skyrim and other solo games the same way. I miss this tool. Admittedly, it gets abused and annoying in the hands of idiots. Some people have mentioned personal meters, that others can't see, and can't be spammed, but allow players to see their own output. How can that be of issue to anyone??

If you wanted a meter for personal improvement in the first place, outside of raids, groups, etc, then yes, it matters! Seen a lot of mention of personal-only meters. I like the idea.

I'm a fan of meters, but even I'll say there's a lot of truth to that. Many people confuse output with solid play. I can stand in the middle of the room and damage everything and win the meters, but if it was a CC pull, well then... But they can be positive too in the right hands, like any tool. Personally, I'd be satisfied with personal meters viewable and resettable on your character screen that couldn't be linked. Let's me personally improve, without the baggage bad people can bring with meters.

Personal BioMeters. Make it so!

Played Lotro 3 years and never even knew it had addons...

I'd honestly just like them for personal output, healing and dps. There are a lot of talents, and a lot of interplay, and I'll admit, I learned in <gasp> other MMO's, that trying things out and testing them can surprise you. Some synergies of talents mesh REALLY well where you wouldn't suspect it. Meters just help in seeing that sometimes, if you're trying to test stuff out. Like someone else said, I'd be fine with personal meters only, with no sharing. Helps me improve, negates the whole ego/epeen/others argument.

There is an awful lot of math when choosing like 30 talents out of a possible 90. Factor gear on top of that. I'd really like to see the guy who can, on the fly, tell me that shaving 2 points off the tree here, coupled with gear X, will produce Y change, given a certain rotation. And before you copy/paste your e-peen rant, I asked for personal meters, that can't be linked. So tell me how that helps ego stroke anything.

You'll split the pro-camp here. Some like to use meters for raid betterment. Some for personal betterment. I'm of the latter camp. I don't care if they only show you your own data, aren't linkable, and can't be screenshot. I still like them for personal tweaks and betterment.

I adore you. I'd even endorse personal meters in this game that cannot be shared and are personal feedback only. Eliminates the e-peen complaints and gives me my needed data!

Damn kids and their screwy priorities! j/k...good luck!

L37 sorceror. Tried leveling as heals, but seemed really, really slow to me, and I struggled in some areas. So I went lightning now, since I don't get a lot of group invites anyway. But, I do like group play, and especially on weekends, have some time blocks to group, and maybe heal. Dual spec would help me there. Not arguing it's needed. Just helpful. Could I heal in lightning spec? Maybe. But I haven't grouped much, and if I'm going in as a healer, I want to do well and not fail the group, so I'd prefer heal spec for that. I dunno. Not a screaming request for them or anything, but I'd definitely heal a few more groups during the week if it were an easier swap. And since you can switch specs anyway, for a little legwork and credits, I don't see it as a large intrusion, just a shortcut. Just my 2 cents.