Gankstah
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Posts posted by Gankstah
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MOS 8541. Yes, I know they changed it and I don't give a ****.
.308 holes leave empty souls.
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"and are even able to drain the energy of their enemies to further strengthen their resolve". So when the hell can a Juggernaut "drain" an opponent's "energy"?...
Beta.
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I found your problem.
...level 33 Juggernaut...Believe me when I say, if you're a 31/x/x Immortal Jugg, you will not have issues with rage. Now, if you plan on playing a Vengeance Tank, that's a whole 'nother story. You will feel the pinch on Rage and that never goes away.
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Survivability as a jugg in pvp isn't very fun atm, and gets worse at 50.
^ This
The only thing you can do is tough it out and wait for BioWare's metrics to favor your situation.
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For one, CC should NEVER be the first thing that a mob does when you agro them. Often ill force leap into a group of enemies, and instantly im cc'd for 5-10 seconds, while the dps does their stuff and it all goes to hell and makes it impossible for a melee tank to get it all working together :/
I don't want you to take this the wrong way. Seriously, I don't.
Instead of complaining about it what do you think you can change that will rectify the situation? I'll give you a hint:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."- Albert EintsteinI'm seriously not trying to bash you or aggro you. I'm trying to help you help yourself. Expecting TOR to function like another MMO is faulty reasoning. Expecting TOR to adapt to YOUR playstyle is faulty reasoning.
You clearly have enough experience to know how to tackle the situation. You just seem to be lacking the motivation.
Yep, that too. Using guard on the healer is pointless coz they're always more than 15m away too...Guard should never, NEVER be on your healer unless you're PvP'ing. If your healer is pulling aggro off of you... you've got way bigger issues than tackling trash pulls.
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When I first saw this game I must admit that I was really excited about the idea of a ranged tank. However, now that I've played a Trooper for a while I have to say that I'm a little disappointed... basically it's still a melee tank with some ranged attacks.
I tried to warn people before launch.
You're not alone. A lot of people expected to be Tanking from 30 some odd meters. People didn't believe me when I tried to tell 'em. So long as there is melee in the equation, tanks will never be "ranged". They may have some ranged attacks but at the end of the day, they're spending most of their time up close and personal.
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I find it ludicrous that you think tanking in this game is that different from wow.
This is where I stopped.
I could really care less what a person who's sole experience is level 25 content escorted by a 34 sorcerror actually thinks at this point. You haven't even hit actual tanking content yet to even formulate a respectable opinion let alone have all the tools to even function as a tank.
When you manage to make it up here then come back to me and I'll be happy to roll over some ideas with you. Until then, feel free to peruse the forums. You will find more than enough WoW Tanks, who have failed here, crying about how "it's too hard" and Tanks need a buff. I'm sure they'd love to continue this discussion with you.
Me? I've wasted enough time.
Gotta get back to NMM.
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That sorc was either doing something very wrong or intentionally throttling his damage so as not to pull aggro.
This is why I find his "experience" suspect.
I'm not going to argue the matter but there are several holes in both his premise and most especially his "example". I know when I'm healing friends alts on my medic I pull aggro without even trying. And that's at a .5 aggro deficit.
A sorcerer who's 12+ levels above the content played would not only tank but would essentially solo the entire instance. As far as mechanics go, he doesn't even know them. I'm not going to argue against someone blind in their beliefs.
Especially when that someone keeps misrepresenting the point made into a topic not even broached.
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Tanking in wow changed alot depending on time and circumstance, so claiming you never needed CC, relegating responsibilities to others or anything else than just wading in and pushing a button to grab everyone till they are dead just means you only have a periferical view of tanking in that game and its history.[/Quote]
Because +500% vs 60% threat gen, vastly different threat distribution and a single roll system vs. two roll doesn't make a difference.
There is definitely a perefical view in this conversation. It's not mine though. Knowing encounters is not the subject of my commentary. Tanks not being able to differentiate function or, more importantly, limitation is.
...level 24 ...level 26 ...level 34.Your Sorc would have tanked better than you. In fact, he probably should have since he vastly outleveled any content you had a chance of even hitting let alone surviving.
Your basis for comparison is flawed.
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Thank you very much for the recent update about Threat! I am a relative noob and have been trying to learn the ropes of tanking. I read up here and there, and never realy knew the difference between threat and aggro and how threat works until now. Very concise and easy to understand. It has already made a big difference in my PvE parties.
So thanks again.
Sincerely,
Nooby McTank
I'm glad you took something away from it. That's what we're here for.
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At first, yes. The ranks are already starting to thin though. At least on my server; Anchorhead. I attribute this mostly to PvP. Most people are speccing DPS or rerolling.
Also, look for yourself around these very same forums. There's no shortage of people that simply can't get over how tanks function in other games compared to TOR. Hence all the, "Zomg tanks r teh sux fix it nao!" threads.
TOR Tanking isn't easy mode. Those who can't cut it either quit, reroll or out themselves on the forums with their incessant whining.
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I've already had to quit group with my alt (DPS) and log on my main (Tank) and run the group I was with through the flashpoint... four different times.
There is an abundance of bad Tanks out there.
I can only take so much before I snap, "That's it! Kick this mother ****-er. I'll run us through this. Someone get a DPS."
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Yes, seriously.
You misunderstand.
I'm not questioning your reasoning. I'm intimately familiar with the math being tanking in TOR. I understand your premise and actually agree. Mathematically it makes more sense.
What I don't understand is you ruining a perfectly good point of view with vitriolic garbage.
Telling someone to "stop talking" because they have a different opinion than yours is about as childish as it gets. Maybe you're having a bad day. I dunno. But I'm accustomed to seeing better responses from you.
Not this crap.
You're better than that.
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Just stop talking please. If you honestly believe that tanking can be best accomplished by stacking hit points then I have only sympathy for the poor people you end up tanking for.
Dude, seriously?
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Threat in trash pulls is the biggest issue I'm seeing people from other MMOs dealing with.
Tanks from other games aren't accustomed to having to CC in order for a pull to be successful nor do they understand the concept of the tank only being responsible for a portion of the pull and not it's entirety. If you've come from WoW or Rift you're used to tanking a dozen plus mobs at a time.
That doesn't happen in TOR.
Even IF tanks were capable of doing that, healers aren't capable of sustaining that kind of damage intake. TOR is a different beast. CC, communication and cohesion are your tickets to success. Not zerg pulling trash.
Come to terms with that or be prepared for a hefty repair bill.
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Also, earpieces can have augment slots from critical crafting.
And Implants and weapons.
I just haven't gotten around to fully updating that section. Last time was a pass through to change the dialogue and nomenclature. Will be taking care of that "soon" rest assured. Thanks for the reminder though!
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Jugg is not as blessed lets say, at the other classes when it comes to aggro holding ability.
Sins would disagree with you wholeheartedly. And I wouldn't blame them. Spec'd Smash has more potential AoE damage than all of their AoE abilities combined.
But anyway, back on topic.
I can assure you that Bioware did not intend for Taunt to be part of a tanking rotation. Taunt is there to pickup adds and can also be used in case you stuff up or need to tank-swap due to debuffs, but never should it be part of a normal threat building rotation.Every tanking class has a taunt, Juggs are the only one which has to use it in order to maintain threat? Doesn't seem right does it?
EDIT: I should explain further, Taunt does not generate any threat on it's own, it merely takes over someone else's threat. So, if you are saying that a tank should be using it in their standard skill priority, then you are saying that the tank relies on others to build threat for him/her. Which is stupid because the whole point of a tank is to build and maintain threat by him/herself.
I see this question/discussion a lot. So I'm going to direct you to this thread. What you want to look at specifically is the Threat Theory section. I'm not trying to plug another thread I just don't feel like posting again what has already been outlined and there is a lot of information in there to address.
The first step to better aggro management is understanding how it works. Once players understand how it works then they can start analyzing what it is they're doing wrong. The best tip I can possibly give tanks (regardless of archetype), which is mentioned in that thread, is (if their computer is capable) to Fraps some of their encounters. Granted, not all PC's are capable of running Fraps or similar programs in the background while plugging away on an MMO.
BUT IF YOU CAN then do it. It's difficult to say, even to one's self, "I don't get what's going wrong" when you're in the moment. But reviewing what's going on afterwards, you can spot your mistakes. Simple reflection isn't enough. Physically watching yourself play, you can actively analyze what it is you're doing and what you're not doing. You have the opportunity to objectively say to yourself, "Well that was dumb."
You catch a lot of things by following this method. It's the same in competitive sports. Every team, I don't care how good they are or what sport they play, goes through footage reviewing their games. So they can see where it is things went wrong and where they went right.
It's nearly impossible to analyze your performance WHILE you're playing. And more often than not, you end up answering your own questions before you even have a chance to post on the forums, "QQ WTFBBQ! JUGGS ARE TEH SUX!" I'm not saying that's what you're doing. I'm just saying that there are proactive steps players can take themselves to improve their own gaming experience.
If there is one Juggernaut, just one, out there that is not having issues with threat management then that means everyone has the capability of doing it as well. I will say this, for every poster I see on these forums voicing concerns about Jugg threat, there are at least 1/2 a dozen that are countering with "lrn2play". I'm not saying that's an appropriate response but it is clear that those that are voicing concerns, at least on these forums, are not a "massive majority".
Logically that means the problem isn't with the class but rather the understanding of how said class functions.
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UPDATE
- Updated the Threat Theory section.
- Updated the Threat Theory section.
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Because building up 20% armor reduction over the span of 9-10 seconds would be OP.
Immortals can do it in 2 GCD's...
Just sayin.
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...there is really nowhere else to put them that increases survivability, or threat, aside from Dreadnaught.
If you have a build in mind that has no other choice, like the vengeance tank, than yeah, there's not much that can be done. But if given a choice, do not invest in it.
It may not be a huge increase to threat, but it's the best option for a raid tank.Correction, it's not the best option for a raid tank, it's the only option for THAT build.
I understand that we have a significant population from other MMO's, specifically WoW, and of that population from WoW most are accustomed to having to min/max to the extreme in order to be competitive. I've said it dozens of times before and I'm sure I'll have to say it hundreds of times more over the course of TOR's lifespan... this is not WoW.
The encounters in TOR are not built around a min/max model. 1% will not make nor break a raid. As a tank who is currently tanking NMM every night and 5/5 EV I must stress to my fellow Tanks that a difference of 3-5% will not drop your raid. In TOR, cohesion trumps everything else.
The encounters in TOR are designed specifically to stress your unit cohesion. Does gear play a part? Yes, of course. But that part scales to a point. We've had up and coming tanks MT EV 5/5 in full sets of 106. Seriously, marginal difference are indeed marginal. What matters is your communication and your groups ability to adapt to the encounters presented.
Hell, the very very VERY first people to complete D7, Red Rancor, did so from start to finish on their first try and weren't even geared. They were able to do it solely because of communication. In TOR, the kings of content are the ones that are able to lead and follow as a team.
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Im sorry, is this guy just guessing at the problem? im pretty sure deflecting isnt causing him to have to spam buttons. I have to say though I do notice more delay on actions during multiple mob combat, but I would put that down to server delay.
I ran a buddies alt through Mando Raiders last night because he was having a hell of a time finding a group. Just for giggles, on Mavrix, I told him to hang by the door and I proceeded to aggro all of the turrets in the room and leave them alive.
At least every other GCD was interrupted once I had them all firing at me.
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...im curious where you go the figures from so accurately. Personally I didnt know that ranged had a higher threat cap than melee in this game i thought it was a static 1.1-1.2 accross the board.
From datamining before they compressed the client for release.
Now all this information is held server side so it makes it more difficult to find. But not impossible. If they change anything though, it's relatively easy to test for so long as you know the calc's, which we do.
Unless of course they change the calc's lol. But if they did that we have worse things to worry about. See: SWG Pre-CU, CU and NGE.
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This has got to be the 6th or 7th thread I've seen in this week alone that is based on this topic.
I use this spec personallly. Have been for about a week. I can't say that it works "better" because honestly, I'm still clearing the same content. Just doing it in a different way. It's definitely more difficult to play that's for sure.
Everyone focuses on the pros which is the mitigation spurts you get and they lose focus on the downsides. So let me highlight them for you:
- Force Scream, just take that off of your hotbar. You no longer have Rage to fuel that and all of your other abilities. Impale has now taken the place of both Scream and Crushing Blow in your rotations. Just without the benefit of having Revenge to make it nigh free. So just trash it as soon as you respec.
- Draining Scream is a completely and utterly useless talent. And because you can no longer afford to even use Force Scream the 1 point you have to invest into Battle Cry to get to tier 2 immortal is likewise a waste. 3 wasted talent points right out the gate that you have to invest into this build.
- Dreadnaught? Useless waste of points. See this post for an explanation as to mathematically why it's completely retarded to put points into it that talent. Move them to Unyielding, you're going to need the resource generation it creates.
- It's not the loss of Sonic Barrier or Crushing blow that makes the switch hurt. It's the loss of Sweeping Strikes. You think to yourself, "So I'm losing 1 rage every 3 seconds. Big whoop?" Yeah, see, you say that... but... then you don't have it anymore. And you start to feel the pinch. That and the fact that Enrage isn't off CD more often than not and you start to understand why your resource consumption is greater than your generation.
- People don't realize you have to blow 2 GCDs in order to attain those mitigation bonuses. 2 GCDs that aren't spent generating threat.
All in all, get intimately familiar with where your Assault button is. I dunno about the rest of you but I rarely, if ever, used Assault when I was full Immortal. Tapping Sundering every so often after it's CD was more than enough to keep me fueled for the long haul. With the Vengeance build, that goes away. The removal of Sweeping Strikes and Revenge really gives you perspective on Rage generation.
I recommend every Tank out there play this spec, if only for a few days, just so they can see what kind of resource generation those 2 talents all by their lonesome create for Juggs.
Also, you REALLY gotta be careful with the Intercede spam. The problem is you have to target your healer, Intercede, then target your enemy, then leap. Well, not only is switching targets a monumental waste of time. But the 4 seconds of DR% that Huddle gives you is blown just from jumping around.
If your target is melee, congrats, the only thing you accomplished was dragging the melee boss closer to your group. If your target is ranged, congrats, you just successfully managed to get the boss to ground target AoE your healer or whoever it was you just interceded. This build is NOT easy. And I can't even say for certain that I'm netting any tangible sense of mitigation since Huddle is such a short duration buff to begin with. Seriously, the buff lasts for maybe 1 second by the time you make it back to your target.
I dunno. In MY opinion, it's way more headache then it's worth. Any kind of mitigation gain I might be getting clearly isn't that big of a deal since I'm not noticing it. And the people I play with aren't noticing much either other than the fact that Melee mobs are now running all over the damn place. I'm constantly asking my healer, so are you having an easier time? And he keeps giving me the same response, "Honestly, I can't tell a difference."
So, for what it's worth, that's my take on the vengeance tank so far.
- Force Scream, just take that off of your hotbar. You no longer have Rage to fuel that and all of your other abilities. Impale has now taken the place of both Scream and Crushing Blow in your rotations. Just without the benefit of having Revenge to make it nigh free. So just trash it as soon as you respec.
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yea i was looking at potential 5K credit plus items i can craft?
I have 600K credits currently from quests so 300 odd credits isnt wroth the time to me.
300 cpu isn't something to scoff at. That's 300k a stack. And yes, people do pay.
You can make cash off of implants but be prepared to invest A LOT of time and energy into RE'ing.
Guardian/Shadow - Tanking - Confusion
in Combat Styles
Posted · Edited by Gankstah
That's why BioWare blessed you with an "S" key. You tap it once and all of a sudden all of your surrounding targets are in conal range. Now, if you have so many targets surrounding you that the artificial collision takes hold and they will not spot properly... well then you have bigger problems on your hand. Because in NMM, that means you're about to wipe.
So this, isn't even a factor. I don't blame you for this and I'm not trying to taunt you. This is a common oversight people make who haven't actually played Juggs/Guardians. Positioning is a non-issue in PvE. It really is.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there. You do know that Whirling costs 40 Force, right?
Ok, we all need to take a step back because people are starting to throw out some seriously wishy washy "what if's". The theorycrafting in here is wholly lacking. What you guys need to do is start plotting. So, to save you the time, I'll do it for you. Actually, instead of plotting it out, because people unfamiliar with plotting might get confused, I'm going to do this via chart. We're going to use the posited situation the above reader presented and then compare it to a similar situation via the Guardian.
So, first let's set the parameters. The reader was positing a 12 second time frame. 12 seconds = 8 GCDs. He also listed 10.4/sec as the Force regen factor. For simplicity's sake I'm going to list regen gain every other round so I don't lose the reader.
As you can see, it can be done but you have near zero wiggle room to do it and only 1 of those 4 "*" rounds could be allotted to doing anything that costs force. Now let's compare it to a Guardian AoE rotation. Remember, Soresu grants 1 rage/3 sec when spec'd. For simplicity's sake we will list this at the end total of every other GCD. Also, let's assume that Sweep is at full cost to start out and that Revenge doesn't factor.
And ^this^ is assuming Revenge doesn't factor.
If you want to compare apples to apples then compare apples to apples. Too often I see these discussions and no one actually bothers to do any plotting. You can't, I repeat CANNOT, have these discussions without plotting. It's like engineering without a calculator. You have to do this.
Now there are two things we have to remember.
And you just carry on. Overall, yes, the Warrior/Guardian has a little bit better AoE threat than the Sin/Shadow on paper. They can cycle more over a longer period with greater sustainability. The Sin/Shadow mathematically cannot. I can do this all day long. Really, I can. But I trust I've made my point. Sins/Shadows aren't INFERIOR tanks. They have many strengths that Warriors/Guardians do not. It's just that AoE isn't explicitly one of those strengths.
That is how the game is designed. That is called BALANCE. And I don't care who is talking or what your "experience" may or may not be. You can be the all time gamer pro of the year and I still wouldn't care. Sins/Shadows do JUST FINE with tanking. Both in AoE and single target. They have a little bit of a disadvantage with AoE but as I said before, they have a toybox of utilities that Guardians/Warriors aren't afforded.
Finally, theorycrafting is all well and good but at the end of the day theory rarely resembles reality. As a Juggernaut I can tell you right now, thanks to the state of the game no matter what theory you throw down it will never be accurately represented in game. Mostly because of the GCD interruption issues that Tanks are facing across the board.
Everyone in this thread needs to take a step back and try not to take everything so personal. If your class is at a disadvantage in a given situation it's not a personal assault on you as a man/woman. People take these things waaaaaaaaaay too personally. As if someone just insulted their firstborn.
Do you see me arming for war because someone says that Jugg Immortals are crap in PvP? No, you don't. It's just a game guys. Take a step back and relax.