Gankstah
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Posts posted by Gankstah
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When you say buffed, what exactly do you mean? I'm also a juggernaut tank sitting at just under 27% static defense, curious where you get the other roughly 10% from. Are you calculating the accuracy loss from Smash along with the Retaliation buff in?
Yes, that is correct. 25% Base + 6% Ret + 5% Smash.
I've also noticed channeled abilities (ravage, un-talented force choke) will often play the animation as well as display the channel cast bar, but the ability will not go on cooldown and no actual attacks are made. This may also have something to do with the defensive animations not allowing other abilities to properly trigger.Yes, this is what happens when Defense trumps Ravage. For some reason the Ravage animation can't be interrupted but the mechanic can. This has happened to me quite a few times.
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The higher your shield chance gets the more valuable shield rating is, and vise versa; with diminishing returns devaluing points put into whichever is highest, a balance between the two seems like it would give the most bang for your buck. Has anyone done the math on defense vs shield chance/rating?
The math is not difficult at all.
Defense will, in nearly every situation, trump both shield and avoidance in average mitigation value. Again, average. I can't stress this enough. Average != constant. Sometimes it will be more. Sometimes less. Any given parsing will yield different results. Average enough parsings together and you will eventually hit an average mitigation in the neighborhood of the discussion posed.
But I digress, just like Absorption, Defense "pockets" it's mitigation in spurts as opposed to spread out.
For example, let's take the previous numbers posited in the OP, 100 attacks at 100 value. Let's presume a Defense of 25%. That means 25 of the 100 hits are automatically shaved right off the top. That's 2,500 damage mitigated vs the previous 1250 garnered in each previous example given.
It's not difficult, by any stretch of the imagination, to attain a 35%+ Defense. Negating 1/3rd of all incoming damage on average is no laughing matter and something that Shield Chance and Absorption combined in copious amounts will never be able to attain. Not with the numbers we're looking at in the current incarnation of TOR.
There's a reason that Defense has the highest diminishing return factor of all the defensive secondary stats (0.55). Because it has the highest mitigation yield but at a very steep cost.
As with everything, you the player need to weigh the pro's and cons of said investments. It's almost always beneficial to invest the lions share of your points into Defense. But at what point you cut it off and begin investing in other stats is up to you. There's quite a bit of debate out there as to where that cut off point is. On average you'll find that most theory crafting opinions float somewhere in the 350-450ish range.
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Hello Gankstah, i would like to thank your for your great work.
I wanted to ask if you would allow me to translate your guide into German to put it in the tank forum. (Of course with you as creator of the database.) Every english reading tank there is exited about your gathered informations, for the non english reading ones its a bit complicated, because they have to gather parts of the informations from the different threads. (One Thread about Aggro, the other one about preferences for stats, ... and the answers are anyway based on the informations of your thread.) Next server maintenance is coming and i need something to do.
Thanks again for the nice work and have a fun in the Game, Antiochia
Yes, of course.
As stated in the Author's Note, any and all information contained in this thread is communal property. Use it as you wish. No citation is needed or expected.
I've checked this with my Powertech and my results indicate two things. Firstly that Ion Gas Cylinder is actually giving a armour bonus of 61.5% and secondly that it is additive with Rebraced Armor and not multiplicative.I noticed this when I was levelling up and wanted to work out how much extra mitigation Rebraced Armor would give me so I ran some calculations however when I got it the calculations were incorrect. I have since cleared my talent tree to discover why this was the case.
Base armor value 1126 - No RA or IGC active.
With IGC active armor value rises to 1818 (1126*1.615)
With RA(1) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1216 (1126*1.08)
With RA(1) and IGC active armor value rises to 1909 (1126+(1126*0.08)+(1126*0.615))
With RA(2) and no IGC active armor value rises to 1306 (1126*1.16)
With RA(2) and IGC active armor value rises to 1999 (1126+(1126*0.16)+(1126*0.615))
Screenshots as evidence here.
Perhaps someone can check Juggernaut and Assassin as well?
Thank you for bringing this up. I will definitely check this in game. I've had very little time because of the holidays to keep up with this thread but I really need to get back to testing and verifying information in this thread.
What little time I have has been spent actually playing the game and not really examining it's mechanics. The Warrior story is extremely compelling. I promise though I will check this with my Jugg as soon as I am able.
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Admittedly, this is a more profound issue for Juggernauts since we have such a heavy investment in Defense by default. But I figured this is an issue that should be brought to the attention of the entire Warrior community and not just thrown into the Juggernaut forum.
I would post it in GenDisc but that's a cesspool of spammers and whiners and I'm hoping this might garner some attention if placed in a different forum.
Anyway, Defense (i.e. deflection, parry, dodge etc.) interrupts the GCD. As a juggernaut I'm currently sitting at roughly 36% defense (buffed of course). Which means that 1 in 3 hits are parried/deflected.
I honestly think I'm coming down with carpel tunnel from playing my tank. I have to spam my buttons NON-STOP to get them to fire off. For example. I hit Slash but at that exact same moment I deflect a blaster bolt. The result is Slash does not fire off. There have been situations, more abundant than I would like to admit to, where I'm literally smashing my keyboard for 3-5 seconds trying to get an ability to fire off because I'm just constantly deflecting/parrying and I'm essentially "locked" up.
As a Juggernaut, this causes some serious issues. Particularly with 2+ mobs attacking me. If my abilities are not firing off in a timely fashion I can't maintain aggro. If I can't maintain aggro my position in the group is worthless.
The result of this is that tanks that are heavy reliant on defense (i.e. SA/JS and SJ/JG) are at a disadvantage to tanks who are not (i.e. PT/VG) because the likelyhood of them suffering this effect is far less.
This is the only complaint I have ever, I mean ever, registered on these forums. I am pleading with BioWare... PLEASE turn off the forced Defense animations. For the sake of my health (my hands) and my sanity. I'm not saying turn them off entirely. But if I hit Slash then it should trump whatever Defense animation is firing off at the time.
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Strength will increase the magnitude of damage that you Glance.
I'm not sure where you got this information from but it's not accurate.
Strength has absolutely no effect on any mitigation factors. At all. I'm guessing you read this off of an out of date theory crafting site or poorly researched guide somewhere on the internet. The reason I say this is because "Glance Chance" was the old, old, OLD name for Shield Chance. That name hasn't been used since like build 801 in beta.
I'm not poking fun at you. Don't think I am. This happens all the time so there's nothing to be embarrassed about.
But the answer is no, Strength has no bearing on anything regarding mitigation.
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It's funny. I just made a thread answering this very same question. You can find it here.
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I see this question and argument a lot. A LOT. So I'm going to break it down as simply as I can.
Let's assume incoming damage is 100. This value will not change. Good? Good. let's now assume that you are hit 100 times. That means a sum of 10,000 damage.
If you have a shield rating of 25% with an absorb rating of 50% that means 25 hits will be blocked for 1/2 damage.
- 25x100=2500
- 2500/2=1250
So you have absorbed 1250 damage out of the 10,000 potential damage given.
If you have a shield rating of 50% with an absorb rating of 25% that means 50 hits will be blocked for 3/4th damage.
- 50x100=5000
- 5000*.75=3750
Or 1250 damage absorbed.
That's right, it's the same total.
Now, you're going to say to yourself, "Ok, if it's the same now I'm really confused!" and rightfully so. If you're looking for the highest AVERAGE mitigation yield then Absorption trumps shield chance. The reason being Absorption has a lower diminishing return ratio than that of Shield Chance. 0.18 vs 0.32. That means you have to invest less into it to get any given sum compared to Shield Chance.
HOWEVER that's AVERAGE mitigation. If you want less "spikey" damage (and we're not talking about a massive difference here) then you will want to focus shield. Think of it this way. Shield Chance spreads the average mitigation out more over time. While focusing Absorption contains more mitigation in smaller pockets of time.
Over X amount of time the damage mitigated is the same (on average). They just do it in different ways. While Shield is more expensive (per diminishing returns) it's "safer" yet Absorption is cheaper. Most theory crafting tanks are banking their points into Absorption over Shield because of the higher return. That by no means is indicative of completely ignoring Shield. What we're seeing a lot in the theory crafting world is roughly a 2:3 ratio Absorption favor. For example: 200 Shield Rating and 300 Absorption.
Of course you also have to consider some abilities proc off of shield chance. So that is another thing to consider.
Mathematically, Absorption > Shield. That's imperical mathematical fact. Period. End of story. But mathematical fact does not trump using your brain to figure out what equates to the best setup for your given situation, playstyle or preference.
There's a difference between mathematically better and strategically better.
Don't confuse the two.
Finally, this is not me saying that one is better than the other. This is me answering a question that I see way too often. So now I can just link this thread instead of typing out this answer over and over again. The answer to the question of, "Which one is better?" is entirely subjective. There is no wrong answer. There is only your point of view and your chosen play style.
Don't ever let anyone tell you any different.
- 25x100=2500
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30% with or without retaliation buff?
To clarify this, because I see this misconception a lot, only the DEFENSE stat caps at 30%. I know it's a confusing thing to understand. A lot of people don't get it right the first time. That's to say any numerical bonus that is not a %. Any bonuses you get from abilities, passive or active, that provide a % bonus are not calculated into DEFENSE's stat cap (this includes your base 5% defense rating).
Only the stat itself cap's at 30%. And the number you need to reach that cap is insanely high. 20,000 or some such nonsense. I don't remember and am posting on a cell so I can't calculate it for you atm. You will never, I mean NEVER, come any where even remotely close to hitting the cap.
Just like the cap for DR% is 75%. Your armor rating has to be massive. Absurdly massive to ever come near that cap.
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I met servant 1 and 2, but I want to meet the head cheese, do I ever meet him face to face?
Yes... and no.
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Apparently every hit has a chance to to be blocked/shielded then absorbed including criticals according to game data.
I would very much like to see this "data".
...I rarely get crit for the same damage normal attacks on elites are 300~400, when I am crit hit its around ~1.5 but sometimes it becomes 1100, 1800, can you explain how those aren't being shielded?Let's pretend for a moment that the base value of our given attack is 200-400 dmg. Crits in TOR are based on a 1.5 modifier (which can be increased via Surge). That gives us a window of 300-600 dmg on a crit. It will be extremely rare for you to see the "same damage" from any string of crits. Anecdotal observation shouldn't be taken as imperial fact. I'm not saying that's what you're doing. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be done.
However, that isn't to say it's not impossible that a crit can be shielded; the lack of combat logs makes it impossible to know.It is impossible for a crit to be shielded.
The following is a quote from Georg Zoeller. I have highlighted the important parts for the reader.
Combat Results:We use a two-roll system for determining combat results.
First is a hit roll, accuracy versus defense, and if the attacker misses then no damage occurs. If the attacker rolled poorly enough to miss even discounting the target's defense then a "Miss" result occurs. If he misses because of the defense then the result varies based on the attack type, the cover state of the target, and the target's equipped weapons. All the possible results - Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist, Cover - are mathematically the same, but they can trigger different effects and are visualized in different ways.
If the attacker hits, then a second roll is made with the crit chance of the attacker versus the shield chance of the target. If a Crit or a Shield occurs then the damage is adjusted up or down (based on Surge/Absorb), and then it goes through to the armor and damage resistance. A critical can never be shielded, and an attacker with a high enough crit chance can push the target's shield chance off the table. It shouldn't be possible to get your passive crit chance high enough to start pushing off the target's shield chance, but there are short-duration buffs that push these chances high enough to come into conflict.
On Diminishing Returns:
All of the percentage-based "ratings" on gear have diminishing returns. The design intent is that all tanks will want a mix of Shield, Absorb and Defense ratings, with the "perfect" ratios varied by spec and play style.
For those of you who are unaware of who Georg is, he is the Lead Combat Designer for SWTOR. He's the one responsible for combat design, balance and implementation. Unless Georg and his team completely redesigned the combat system for TOR between the close of the Beta forums and launch... the previous statement is still true. Feel free to contact Georg directly if you want confirmation of the above statement.
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[Guardians] can spec for several "oh crap" abilities that dramatically reduce incoming damage.
If by "several" you mean one... then yes, you are correct.
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I'm not saying that Slicing didn't need a looky loo but now I actually lose money by sending people out on missions. I lost 300 credits and 1/2 an hour of time sending two companions out on a Rich Yield Tier 5 (Taking Back Control - 100 credit loss) and an Abundant Yield Tier 6 (Data Race - 200 credit loss).
I'm sure this is an oversight by someone somewhere. I'm guessing the jeweled and gilded medium cases aren't supposed to be on those mission tables or possibly those cases aren't supposed to yield so little. I dunno.
Right now Tier 3's and 4's still yield a profit but only if you come back with a green case and even then it's only a couple hundred credits. But the Tier 5's and 6's actually yield negative return.
I'm pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to roll especially when you're not only losing money but more importantly TIME.
At least I can still pilfer the **** out of slicing nodes in republic owned areas. So there's still that.
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108 people who wanted SWG2 went to metacritic to spite the game.
Who cares what butt hurt whiners think? All that matters is what YOU think. Stick with that and you'll be fine.
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This is because no one plays Eve Online. *rimshot* Any intelligent person knows this is a technical and performance issue more than anything else.
I chuckled.
The actual difference between EVE and traditional MMO's is profound but it all boils down to one very simple concept with a very complicated answer: N^2 algorithms.
Specifically movement packets.
A movement packet is essentially a piece of information that is sent from the client to the server back to the client and simultaneously to every other client that is in 'X' proximity of the originating player. So let's pretend that there are 1,000 players in one zone. All of them are standing still. One player moves 10 feet. A packet is sent from your computer (i.e. the client) to the server, the server receives and then responds back to the client that said data was received. In the process of doing that 999 other packets are also sent to the 999 other players in the zone.
That's for ONE person in a zone of 1,000 players. Now, imagine if all 1,000 players are all moving at the exact same time. That's just moving from point A to B. All movement in a traditional MMO is reported. Emotes, turning, jumping, blocking, attacking etc. etc. This information is transfered constantly to all players in any given zone. And that's just players. We're not even talking about MOBs as well. There's a reason why most MOBs are static. This is that reason.
Any way you cut it, that's an OBSCENE amount of information to be transferred at any given time and quite honestly it's a lot more complex than I'm giving it credit for. If people truly understood the sheer amount of information that is transferred just in regards to information... they would be in awe.
And that's just for movement. EVE's movement is miniscule in comparison. EVE is essentially a MUD with a graphic interface. You don't even have to have the graphic display up to play. In fact most hardcore players don't even have that window in view. They just have all their operation windows open so they don't even "see" the game. That's because position is relatively redundant as far as EVE is concerned.
Because they don't have to accomodate for that massive influx of information they don't need the server support that traditional MMO's need. And that's just ONE reason out of several as to why EVE can handle that kind of server load.
That's what people don't understand. You simply can't say, "Oh EVE does it so everyone should be able to do it." Because it's simply not true. One day technology will catch up to the demands of the gaming industry.
Today is not that day.
Next year isn't looking good either.
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The question here is not "can it be done." Of course it can.
See my previous post and curb your hostility, please.
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The way SWTOR is currently designed, with broken up worlds and instances for each zone, it could have been EASILY handled.
No, it couldn't.
I love how people use the word "easily" in regards to technology they don't understand.
Please, enlighten me, how would you handle the subnet interface for 3 concurrent blades running in parallel for authentication queing? If you can't answer that question than please stop acting like an authority on the topic.
Thank you.
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In short:
People who have no technical expertise in the field of Network Engineering shouldn't be commenting on this topic as if they were an authority. If you don't know the broadcast IP of a sub-class C block (a very basic question in networking) without Googling it... you shouldn't be talking about this issue.
At all.
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Never played Eve Online? One server. Works fine.
I wish people would stop using EVE as a comparison.
EVE is essentially a MUD. Point and click through and through. You're comparing an apple to a grand prix.
While it's humorous to watch people who have zero understanding of network engineering decree that because 'X' system works this way obviously 'Y' system should to, it's also very frustrating. As an engineer I have to deal with this kind of attitude every day so I understand that people out there would be confused on the matter.
To put it in the language of sports:
You're asking that the Bears (TOR) go to Wrigley Field and play against the Cubs (EVE) and for everything to be equal. That's not going to happen.
EVE is a joke compared to other games out there. There's a reason why CCP can suffer 300,000+ concurrent players at any given time on their global server. The same way Google can handle millions of people online at any given time. Because the data transfer that CCP has to cope with is insignificant to that of traditional MMO's.
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Am I missing anything on these? Are the power / armor buffing adrenals the best all around choices for a tank? Or would something else help more?
The defense stim, imo, is the best choice. It provides a little more wiggle room for your modification stacking. But that's just my opinion.
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2 days in and I don't have the desire most MMOs give to play. Usually I am trying to skip work or training to game. Just to easy of a game with no real challenging content.
I mean who is even listening to the VO. I haven't seen EA started and still feel like I am wasting time having to space bar though it.
Now I know a bunch of Fanbois are going to flame but hey I paid for it also!
Different strokes for different folks. Hope you find the game you're looking for!
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...I have no idea what the OP is doing. Unless he's just bluffing, which is certainly possible, or if Rage is a horrible spec and I just don't know it.
It's a lot easier for an immortal spec to "solo" without a companion than for a rage spec that's for sure. And I most certainly have to blow a CD and a consumable when it comes to 2+ hard enemies. So it's not like it's a cake walk. I personally recommend people who are going immortal spec to level at least for a while, if not longer, without a companion so they can get accustomed to using their CD's so when tough boss fights come along you're not panicking or looking for your CD's which are rarely used when you're with your companion.
I'm not saying it's easy by any stretch of the imagination. It's not. I'm saying it's just the way I play atm since I only have 3 companions and I don't want to waste this valuable time not maximizing crafting resources. That and it does wonders for prepping you on tough fights in flashpoints/operations.
If you're a tank spec and you're reading this, I promise you, you will know your hotbars intimately by the time you've leveled 4 or 5 levels without a companion. And that panicky feeling you get when your health gets low... that just goes away. It's valuable experience.
Can you post your current spec Gankstah.Level 29 so far. From here I will focus on Sonic Barrier since it wasn't in when I was beta testing and I want to see how it performs.
I just turned 28 and I generally have no issues. My only problem is AOE threat. There are just not enough skills to single each mob and keep threat on them all in a group of 4 sometimes. Im getting better at it though but I do wish we had some wider AOE skills earlier on.From previous experience with play throughs that issue resolves itself with Sweeping Strikes. It makes a massive difference.
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What kind of rotation do you normally follow when you're pulling a "hard" group. And what is your build so far?
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I'm curious to know what it is you're doing.
This isn't a thread where I or others are trying to bash you. This is intended to be a genuine attempt to help people who are having issues with PvE'ing as a Juggernaut. I've been seeing A LOT of people in game complaining about solo'ing issues as well as on these forums and quite honestly it confounds me.
Currently I'm level 27. I haven't had a companion by my side (with the exception of solo Champion fights) since I was level 15. I have them all crafting non-stop. I haven't encountered a solo pull that I couldn't do alone unless it involves a Champion, then Quinn comes out to play.
So if you're having issues I'd like to know what they are. What are your rotations? What kind of gear do you have? Who's your companion? What level are the mobs?
I feel bad that there are so many people out there having a hard time playing the Juggernaut and I'm genuinely trying to help those who might have issues.
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Friggin' awesome dude. Thanks for this. I was starting to get tired of looking around on the webs and finding out dated information. This is very welcome. I appreciate it.
Tanking: A Primer
in Combat Styles
Posted · Edited by Gankstah
I can also confirm that I am seeing the % increase. I have reported this as a bug and I suggest others do so as well. It looks like a decimal place was moved or something on accident. = ) I think it's supposed to be 60.15 not 61.5.
As far as the simplification of the mean mitigation calc, thank you very much. I will have that updated as soon as I get home (posting on my phone) monday. I knew eventually someone with an affinity for math would come along and clean up my sloppiness. I'm not very good at math.
Thanks again Tanis.