The epeen is strong with this thread. Popcorn I eat. Continue you must.

How is it trying to find groups as dps? Edit: at 50

Here's an idea to help you be stronger on your vanguard: spend your talent points. If you don't feel powerful on a vanguard, then none of the other classes will do either. Vanguard is strong from 10-50,

No. You are an "althead". You satisfy your addiction in an "althouse". Get some help man, before it's too late.

Thanks!

Ok, I am a founder who has been playing since beta and I still don't have a level 50. Why? I can't stay with a class long enough to get there. I have finally narrowed it down to one of three classes and one of four ACs. I am choosing between Operative (Diogenes), Sith Warrior (Thrax), Vanguard (Elvis) or Jedi Sentinel (Huggy - shoulda gone with Huggybear). I obviously like melee (my sorc has the highest level, but I get bored playing him). I do not want to tank, but prefer to have that as an option, especially for PvP. What I would like to know is how healthy are these classes at 50, PvE and PvP? I don't need OP or I would stay with my Sorc or Merc (same with my Gunslinger, though he is the lowest level of the bunch). I do, however, want viable and, maybe, even great with some gear and skill. Thanks to those who respond.

Nice story, that was very well written. I don't usually read posts this long, but once I started, I couldn't stop, lol. Here's my take: SWTOR has a very different dynamic between tanks and dps than other MMOs. Classes that can tank have great dps specs; classes that can heal have great dps specs. There does not appear to be any "hybrid tax" whatsoever. This freaks people out. It will be even worse with GW2 where there are NO pure tanking and healing classes. WoW is a good game that does a lot of things right, but it sure has caused a lot of ignorance when it comes to other games.

This answer is also wrong. No one has any accurate reliable information on comparative end-game dps because BW has not released the combat logs. Accordingly, anyone who tries to tell you that they know this information is guessing. The only problem with Vanguard DPS is that players believe you are only viable as a tank because that's the way it is with some tanks in other MMOs.

Why do poor players always blame it on the class/game? Someone may be an awesome sniper and a bad sorcerer and they come here and yell that sorc is broken. Most of the time it is the player who is "broken." Snipers are fine for pve and pvp.

This is way too simple. PvP is a rock/paper/scissors issue. Sorc versus sniper or OP, sniper or OP usually win. Powertechs are tough, but a good Sorc should dismantle them. A marauder with CDs up is a nightmare to deal with for anyone. A tanky assassin or shadow is also hard to beat. No one can 1v1 a heal specced sorcerer or sage. So, in PvP, "better" is a relative term. All classes can be successful, but some require more skill and ability than others. Overall, a heal specced sorc/sage is probably the most difficult 1v1 class to deal with in the entire game, but their damage is just meh. Powertech/Vanguard is also very, very good, especially with objective based WZs. All said, play the class you like, learn it well, and you will have the best chance to succeed in PvE and PvP. Juggs are awesome, with great mobility and interesting skills. Played well, they are fantastic. Played well with a healer and you are in trouble.

Animations are personal preference. That said, to my steely eye, marauders have much better animations and armor.

What about PT/Vanguard? They have some nasty aoe damage.

Hmm, I have no issues with shadow/assassins on my OP. Wonder what's up? Also, a Marauder/Sentinel with full cds is tough for anyone.

This is the argument for logs/parses that makes sense. As for the scrubs arguing that I would like to be "fine," and you use meters only to sharpen your gear or build, I call bs. Why? You talk about other people with a subpar spec using poor skills. That is something a pugger would be concerned about. PuGs are NOT at the forefront of end game raiding. Accordingly, you are your pug friends are the problem. If you want to defeat end game content get in a guild and argue over loot distribution. Would you be satisfied with a dps meter system that could not be broadcast to other players? Also, we have all seen how meters are misused. An extra 100 dps is not worth the community ramifications of having meters.

Exactly. Thank you. Skills that hit hard have a comparatively long cast time. Channeled skills use less resources or return them. All in all, we won't know anything until we get combat logs, which may never come. Enjoy your class, learn your class, learn your fights and stay out of the bad stuff, then these questions become meaningless.

No. There is no acceptable way to calculate comparative dps without logs. That said, whom on Earth ever said Shadow dps was bad? Edit: Let me clarify, you can show a form of comparative dps, in that on that night, with that rng, you beat your mini boss first. You just cannot calculate numbers from those fights or extrapolate to any other night when rng may be different.

Combat logs should be available at some point. From them, parses will become available and will be useful. DPS Meters may or may not be available after that, depending on third party development. I don't see BW creating an in-game dps meter, but they might. However, don't let anyone tell you that DPS meters are necessary for progression raiding. They aren't and never have been, not in this game or any other. End game content is being and always does get finished just fine without them. Parses are useful, but not for the reasons most of the scrubs responding in favor of meters believe. Those are the same people inspecting low level alts of serious, top guild raiders, and complaining about their spec. They read about some cookie cutter spec on a forum and stupidly believe that it is the best spec for everyone, for all content. Quite frankly, that's one of the reasons you may encounter those wannabes - they ply their trade in PuGs. Those idiots, and there are a bunch of them, are why I hate meters. They encourage scrubs to disregard raid mechanics to pad their numbers. Here's a pro-tip, from a progression raider, learn your class, learn the fight, stay out of the bad stuff and you don't need meters. That said, they are almost certainly coming. Accordingly, my advice would to learn how to use their limited information correctly. If you post dps meters after a wipe, then you need to understand that you are doing nothing but broadcasting your stupidity and/or ignorance to everyone else in the raid. Don't mistake my strong distaste for most of you as an inability to play. I am usually at or near the top of recount or skada whenever I raid with PuGs. I have just seen how stupid people get over the meaningless information. Half the raid wipes to an easy mechanic and almost always some idiot posts meters like they mean something. So, you may want meters, you may not. If you do, then cheers, you will probably get them. If you do not, then cheers as well, I understand your pain brother. But please, if you want them, don't support your argument for meters by stating that only scrubs are against them. I have cleared content in games you play that you have never and will never ever see and I don't want them.

Just a few points in response to the comments: 1. Why play an OP? OPs are great to play because they are so much fun. It's the only reason to play any class. This is a personal preference issue. 2. We do not have a gap closer. True, but we have ranged attacks that may not be as strong as a sniper (far from it), but are still pretty good. I have killed a bunch of folks using ranged attacks while running to them with my 15% run speed increase. 3. Weakest heals/PvE DPS: No one knows anything about comparative heals or dps. We do not have logs. I do know, however, that OPs have cleared all end content NM raids (as dps mind you). Disregard all current posts that claim to know otherwise. Their calculations are utterly meaningless, especially as pertains to OPs (positional attacks).

While I appreciate the effort, the results are not accurate, unless you find a way to reconcile uptime on boss and the lack of proper positioning for melee (parry/dodge issues). We won't know this information until a combat log is provided and then we will be in for a ton of stupidity. Besides, this information does nothing to help you become a better player. It's only purpose is exclusion and, as noted, for many classes (like OPs) the results are useless.

The reality is that you don't know anything about comparative dps without logs. Concealment ops are clearing all content. That's all that matters.

Trolls live on the "off chance it isn't a troll" belief. It's a troll. Look how it squeals when uncovered. Move along.

Where do you get your data without logs, parses or meters?

I disagree with this. I don't think any class has effective damage output of a sniper/gunslinger. You cannot heal through sniper damage.

Well played snipers and gunslingers are ridiculously effective in PvE and PvP. The problem is that they are somewhat boring to play. All of the cast times seem to take forever and that makes the class feel slow and unresponsive. When you hit someone, however, it's fun to se them panic as their health is immediately halved.

Which is funny because there is nothing in PvP quite as formidable as a Powertech or Vanguard.