Shadow infiltration spec viability in pvp

[Fairell]

Im currently rank 35, so i pvped a bit. From my observation, shadow infiltration spec is flawed, actually the whole shadow class mechanic.

 

1. as infiltration, you are squishy as hell, yet we are the only class, which has to trade survivability for damage. Knights and troopers dont loose anything if speccing dps or hybrid. they still have heavy armor, dmg reduction shields and other sutff. even scoundrels have medium, while having far more burst and heals. but we have to choose whether be in combat stance and render half the infiltration tree useless (exit strategy and stuff) or be in shadow stance and die as soon as you come out of stealth and someone sneezes in your direction.

 

2. we are the only melee class with absolutely no dmg reduction cooldowns or procs. the only thing we have is saber defense. every other class has heals or dmg reduction shields, or absorb shields or even a mix of them all, bluntly far more defenses while having same dmg.

 

3. what is our role? we dont have any survivability, we are even squishier than mages, our force regeneration outside stealth is depressing, so if you get cced after you exit stealth, you are ****ed, since you cannot fight at all.

we lack sufficient burst to be a true stealth class. lately, people seem to have realised the above mentioned points, cause not healers, or smugglers or whatever other class is focused on sight, no, its shadow, cause they know, you are an easy target,since you lack any defenses.

 

4. this is somewhat frustrating, but i have a feeling i do less dmg since i dinged 50. now even lvl 15 powertechs or something take forever to die. our hardest hitters ar project and shadow strike which deal both kinetic dmg, thus are heavily mitigated by armor, but we dont have any armor penetration worth mentioning. another thing is, SS has base dmg of 1500 max. procced it should ignore 50% of the targets armor, yet it hits for 1k. *** is this? if shadow doesnt crit with every strike, your dmg is pitiful and you die, cause again, low force regen( yes, i use blackout) doesnt allow you to fight longer than 15 seconds. if you dont kill fast, anyone will outlast you.

 

What am i missing?

[Gabeqt]

What I'm gonna say is from a perpective of a relatively well-geared lvl50 (I've also had extensive high-end pvp/arena experience with rogue in wow, which is extremely simiar to infiltration).

 

1. So I've played infiltration the majority of times, but I've also experimented with every other specs out there. My conclusion: infiltration is fine if you can play it.

As for the part of being squishy, I couldn't agree more, we are by far one of the squishyest classes in game. If you have troubles adopting to the requiremenets of this playstyle I recommend you spec 23/18/0 (which has an edge over infiltration in pvp anyway). It's just the way it is, the class is squishy, if you start taking dmg you'll die eventually, so you aren't looking for to mitigate the dmg you take, you want to avoid it as long as possible (preferably long enough to get a kill). You've got your tools to counter both melee and force attacks, plus you've got the stun and several interrupts. Try not to overlay these cooldowns. Also you need to know when to vanish, I can't comment on that further, it's something you know or not.

 

2. About dmg reduction see the 1st point.

 

3. Our role is dominating snipers and mages. I dont agree with you concerning energy regeneration, I barely find myself energy-starved. If you don't overlay the energy regeneration coming from leaving stealth and blackout you should have no problems.

 

4. I don't know about you but I do quite amazing dmg. I can kill a mage or sniper from 100% in about 3 gcd with the proper setup. It's all about picking targets, if you start going to to toe with tanks you'll lose, noting to see here move along.

Another thing that you probably dont do right is shadow striking. You should never use it unless it's procced, which will happen once every 10 sec. If you use it any more often you are gimping yourself. A lot. Try setting up coordinated burst, infiltration works that way. If you want to do good sustained dmg while being more tanky (tho doing almost no burst) go 23/18/0 as I said above.

[Chomag]

Pvp as kinetic, tbh. You will rock.

[Weizmir]

Another thing that you probably dont do right is shadow striking. You should never use it unless it's procced, which will happen once every 10 sec. If you use it any more often you are gimping yourself. A lot. Try setting up coordinated burst, infiltration works that way. If you want to do good sustained dmg while being more tanky (tho doing almost no burst) go 23/18/0 as I said above.

 

You are perfectly right. However, I found it is very hard to notice the proc during a pvp fight. How do you do ?

[Zunzun]

You are perfectly right. However, I found it is very hard to notice the proc during a pvp fight. How do you do ?

 

You keep watching your buff bar... With a little practice you know approximately when it's gonna proc.

 

For pvp, you may want to run a kinetic template, they're far more efficient. And as you said, people seem to focus shadows, so being focused when you're actually some kind of unkillable tank can change the outcome of a teamfight. Best pvp build i've tried so far is 27/14/0, and it still allows you to do a fair tanking job in flashpoints. Stasis and Force Pull are incredible tools for pvp.

[Fairell]

ofc i never SS without proc, same for project without double buff. but theres definitely something wrong with SS. procced it should ignore 50% armor and with talented 30% critical damage it should hit for more than spinning strike. yet it doesnt. read again, i said PROCCED SS hit only for 1k or even 900. crits go 2k or something

 

 

btw. 27/14 kinetic heavy. but still offensive gear or full tank?

[dronepilot]

I take it these numbers your all flashing around - are the points used on the skill tree between Kinetic - Infiltration - Balance - if so what are you all doing with your remaining points ?

[Fairell]

im infiltration with upheaval spec. so nothing in kinetic. as a shadow, if you go kinetic you have to gear for it, you cannot make a bursty, but tanky hybrid like the knights can.

[Unscrupulous]

I somewhat agree. I'm 50 and an upheavel build infiltrator. fighting 1v1 vs sorc or snipers own me. maybe its because i dont have much pvp gear yet but being a melee burst damage class and getting out bursted by snipers point blank...i mean 4.5k hits as well as sorc taking a beating before going down. for having to get close it seems like im under powered. maybe im playing the shadow wrong or am not geared up enough.

 

 

doubt ill use them but can you guys link those other builds plz so i can take a look and try it out

[Wakantanka]

This is my tanky shadow striking leveling pvp hybrid: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rcRokrskZhGdMkMz.1

 

For leveling I use fess in force tech and just tear mobs up, but for pvp combat tech with a shield. I like the build a lot so far, very versatile.

 

Doing well so far in bg's at lvl 37, although I do agree SS seems like it's armor pen is borked. Still don't have spinning kick yet, which should help with opponent control, just like low slash.

 

So project is kinetic dmg? does that mean lightning is energy and also mitigated by armor / shield?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Wakantanka

[Fairell]

i dont mind pve. i can do everything solo, except heroic 4 bosses.

 

the thing is, we are VERY crit reliant class, yet we dont have a single talent to boost crit. we dont have any burst out of stealth, cause project has to be build up and SS needs a proc. i jump on a 40 sniper and he outdamages me in melee range. hell i want spammable abilities which hit for 3k too. got hit by a lvl 38, i think BH that was, for 3.8k, yet i have to see such a number as a lvl 50 shadow. and on top of that no absorb shields and no dmg reduction cooldowns, which every other class has.

 

shadow is ridiculously gear dependent and unflexible. yes, i've seen vids with assassins tearing ppl apart, but they have full champ+ gear. anything below and you do pitiful dmg, except for those moments where all the stars shine upon you and everything crits

Edited January 3, 2012 by Fairell

[Halja]

What I'm gonna say is from a perpective of a relatively well-geared lvl50 (I've also had extensive high-end pvp/arena experience with rogue in wow, which is extremely simiar to infiltration).

 

1. So I've played infiltration the majority of times, but I've also experimented with every other specs out there. My conclusion: infiltration is fine if you can play it.

As for the part of being squishy, I couldn't agree more, we are by far one of the squishyest classes in game. If you have troubles adopting to the requiremenets of this playstyle I recommend you spec 23/18/0 (which has an edge over infiltration in pvp anyway). It's just the way it is, the class is squishy, if you start taking dmg you'll die eventually, so you aren't looking for to mitigate the dmg you take, you want to avoid it as long as possible (preferably long enough to get a kill). You've got your tools to counter both melee and force attacks, plus you've got the stun and several interrupts. Try not to overlay these cooldowns. Also you need to know when to vanish, I can't comment on that further, it's something you know or not.

 

2. About dmg reduction see the 1st point.

 

3. Our role is dominating snipers and mages. I dont agree with you concerning energy regeneration, I barely find myself energy-starved. If you don't overlay the energy regeneration coming from leaving stealth and blackout you should have no problems.

 

4. I don't know about you but I do quite amazing dmg. I can kill a mage or sniper from 100% in about 3 gcd with the proper setup. It's all about picking targets, if you start going to to toe with tanks you'll lose, noting to see here move along.

Another thing that you probably dont do right is shadow striking. You should never use it unless it's procced, which will happen once every 10 sec. If you use it any more often you are gimping yourself. A lot. Try setting up coordinated burst, infiltration works that way. If you want to do good sustained dmg while being more tanky (tho doing almost no burst) go 23/18/0 as I said above.

 

 

 

Agree with you right up until point 4.

 

I have never been able to kill anyone from full hp, even with perfect setup/crit strings, in 3 gcd, and I can't imagine how it would be possible against someone in equal gear.

 

(perfect crit string being 5 stacks or Exit Strategy, a SS proc with 1 second remaining, Force potency ready, 2 stacks of clarvoyant buff, and a whole lot of luck.)

 

Most bust I have ever done as a (semi) geared 50 in half champion gear against another person with decent expertise was 2.9k SS crit>(Potency>)2.2k Project>2.8k Breach>2.9k SS crit, which is 4 gcd, and 10.8k damage, which wouldn't even be enough to kill a fresh 50.

 

I like it when people educate others on the pros of the class other than whining, but exaggerating to prove a point is a disservice to everyone. :/

[dgannaway]

ofc i never SS without proc, same for project without double buff. but theres definitely something wrong with SS. procced it should ignore 50% armor and with talented 30% critical damage it should hit for more than spinning strike. yet it doesnt. read again, i said PROCCED SS hit only for 1k or even 900. crits go 2k or something

 

 

btw. 27/14 kinetic heavy. but still offensive gear or full tank?

 

I'm lvl 23 and i always get my 2.5k dmg hit with shadow strike. if you are only doing 1k dmg with procced shadow strike you are doing it wrong

[anstalt]

Inf shadow's main trick is on-demand burst

 

Can't stress enough how important this is.

 

Whilst the rest of the time it might be hard to maintain decent damage, due to proc-watching, force management and squishiness, having on-demand burst every 75 secodns is great. In pvp, you can plan and gear for it. Stack power instead of crit. Then, use force-potency + power relic + power adrenal / warzone adrenal and melt faces.

 

Doing this burst can easily change the tide of the battle. Take alderaan for example. Heated battle at the center, 6v6 fight. You can, on-demand, burst down their ranged dps, or their healer. All of a sudden, its 6v5 and your team wins. Whilst other classes can out-burst you, they can't do it on demand.

 

 

Outside of bursting, you definitely have a tough time. Spend the rest of your time running like a madman and using your utility. Taunts + snares + cc helps the rest of your team. Use LOS to stop yourself from dying. Force-cloak to save yourself and have fun. Voidstar is a nightmare for inf shadows, but if you are a quick mover, just LOS on the pillers repeatedly and people just switch target. run back in, DPS for 10-15 seconds, then when they turn on you again just leggit. Its amazing how short peoples attention span is! "Target out of range" = tab-to-next-target for 90% of the population.

[dronepilot]

Meh most I have ever got off is 2.5k killing blow as far as I know. I just can't get to those numbers mentioned, even with buffs.

[Boarg]

Beware the thread necromancers...

[Avap]

i just wanna say....L2P nub

 

 

infiltration ***** CMN (cry more noob)

[heinywb]

Agree with you right up until point 4.

 

I have never been able to kill anyone from full hp, even with perfect setup/crit strings, in 3 gcd, and I can't imagine how it would be possible against someone in equal gear.

 

(perfect crit string being 5 stacks or Exit Strategy, a SS proc with 1 second remaining, Force potency ready, 2 stacks of clarvoyant buff, and a whole lot of luck.)

 

Most bust I have ever done as a (semi) geared 50 in half champion gear against another person with decent expertise was 2.9k SS crit>(Potency>)2.2k Project>2.8k Breach>2.9k SS crit, which is 4 gcd, and 10.8k damage, which wouldn't even be enough to kill a fresh 50.

 

I like it when people educate others on the pros of the class other than whining, but exaggerating to prove a point is a disservice to everyone. :/

 

with 501 bonus dmg and 77% crit mult from stacking power/surge, a fully stacked fb on a geared light armor target will still hit for over 5k. project is right around the same, and finish with a spinning strike for 4500. if u got a proc on ur project your looking at about 17k in 3 gcds. highest fb ive seen with these stats on a fresh 50 was 6100 but ive only broken 6k a couple of times....doesnt happen very often. so 100% to 0% in 3 gcds is very possible with the right gear/setup

[Elsim]

get relic of forbidden secrets! (http://www.torhead.com/item/67Y16q/relic-of-forbidden-secrets) if you got artifice you can make a rakata one(but you all prob know that ) m champ geared with bm/rakata implants i crit between 2.5-4.5k (if m stacked) with spinning strike, breach and project (the roulation i use) if you got masked assault use blackout for the extra regeneration. i only use ss if im positioned for it and got the buff for it, if youre not you need to stun reposition etc and thats a waste of time if you u are using the relic

[VarisRoa]

Overall I am more comfortable with a kinetic spec but even vs a 50 healer in battlemaster gear I hit for 4900+ on a FB.

 

come out of stealth with spin kick. clairvoyant strike twice, pop pvp adrenal+relic+potency, project 4500+, force breach 4900+, SS 4300+ and if they don't pop some kinda healing it's light out with a spinning strike.

 

very very high damage that is much more sustainable then other bursty classes.

 

excellent players will notice you popping stuff though and will vanish or use abilities to negate the damage =(

 

 

but that's why I'm 31/0/10 and in full DPS gear =)

Absolute blast to play

[Koppster]

but that's why I'm 31/0/10

 

So how do you manage to open your burst rotation with Clairvoyant Strike x 2 with 0 points in Inf?

[Darkerwarrior]

So how do you manage to open your burst rotation with Clairvoyant Strike x 2 with 0 points in Inf?

 

oooooooooo...................................................

[nikaj]

Shadow Infiltration, not ideally suited to mass brawls.

 

Pick your fights, that is the main benefit of stealth after all.

 

Sprint->Force Cloak - I can escape lost causes 7/10 times. What little defence abilitys would have been used prior to this. (WZ) You can pick up HP boost and go straight back into the fight or move and heal.

 

I like protecting OBJs and taking down stragglers.

[Oh-Be-One]

Some people Im afraid just don't understand how to play as infiltration. Its a slightly more complex class than most with having so many procs and buffs to watch out for and time correctly, but it has some of the coolest animations and is just a blast to play. Im in full BM gear and pvp frequently. I have ZERO problems. Yes Im squishy, but you have to know that going in and how to do what your class is made to do. You're not a tank and you're not meant to go toe to toe with people in the middle of a huge brawl. You're a stealth class. Pick your fights. Burst down healers and ranged dps'ers then vanish. With the massive on demand burst I have no trouble 1 vs 1 with anyone. And even if you do....disappear and run. But 1 vs 1 is what we're built for. I don't care what class you are, when you get hit with a project for 4-5k, a reliable upheavel proc for another 2k or so, a force breach of internal damage for around 4k, a SS for another 4k and then a spinning strike for...once again, you guessed it...4k, your *** is grass. You're going home in a bucket. Thats a massive amount of on demand burst. Use this to solo cap doors and turrets. You sneak around, wait for someone to be alone and then *bam*. Quick murder and ninja cap. That is your job. Not to run around in the middle of battle.

 

The trick is timing your CC's to keep them stunlocked or from using any defensive abilities or kiting you, and knowing when to pop your resilience so you just brush off their most powerful attack as if its a mosquito. After they blow their huge hit on you and you take no damage, they tend to panic. Hit them with a low strike, pop your prerequisites and then unload and watch them melt. Its all about practice, knowing your class, your role, as well as other classes and how THEY fight so you know how to better prepare. You have very situational rotations and utility. You have to know who's gonna try and kite you or who's gonna keep you CC'd...then adapt and overcome (very easily I might add with the amount of utility shadows have).

 

Long story short: Know your role

Edited April 13, 2012 by Oh-Be-One

[Mopias]

Some people Im afraid just don't understand how to play as infiltration. Its a slightly more complex class than most with having so many procs and buffs to watch out for and time correctly, but it has some of the coolest animations and is just a blast to play. Im in full BM gear and pvp frequently. I have ZERO problems. Yes Im squishy, but you have to know that going in and how to do what your class is made to do. You're not a tank and you're not meant to go toe to toe with people in the middle of a huge brawl. You're a stealth class. Pick your fights. Burst down healers and ranged dps'ers then vanish. With the massive on demand burst I have no trouble 1 vs 1 with anyone. And even if you do....disappear and run. But 1 vs 1 is what we're built for. I don't care what class you are, when you get hit with a project for 4-5k, a reliable upheavel proc for another 2k or so, a force breach of internal damage for around 4k, a SS for another 4k and then a spinning strike for...once again, you guessed it...4k, your *** is grass. You're going home in a bucket. Thats a massive amount of on demand burst. Use this to solo cap doors and turrets. You sneak around, wait for someone to be alone and then *bam*. Quick murder and ninja cap. That is your job. Not to run around in the middle of battle.

 

The trick is timing your CC's to keep them stunlocked or from using any defensive abilities or kiting you, and knowing when to pop your resilience so you just brush off their most powerful attack as if its a mosquito. After they blow their huge hit on you and you take no damage, they tend to panic. Hit them with a low strike, pop your prerequisites and then unload and watch them melt. Its all about practice, knowing your class, your role, as well as other classes and how THEY fight so you know how to better prepare. You have very situational rotations and utility. You have to know who's gonna try and kite you or who's gonna keep you CC'd...then adapt and overcome (very easily I might add with the amount of utility shadows have).

 

Long story short: Know your role

 

 

Awesome read - thank you for providing this as this type of content is something I've been searching for. Specifically something that includes rotations and why each element is where it is.

 

(i.e. Write a quick pvp guide that includes rotations!!!)