"This game is new" isnt an accept excuse for the games problems

[Nemmar]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

Gosh i dont know what to tell you. Perfection for yesterday you claim, yet you have no notion of what that implies.

 

several years of development went to WoW before it released, i dont know how many but i believe around the same time it took for this game. Add to that 7 years of revenue/funded development and 4 expansion packs retail sale.

 

You expect a company to make an investment propotional to the years of development before release + 7 years of revenue and development, so a 12 year development cycle, to happen in 6 funded without any revenue from the product.

 

Do you realise how ridiculous and unrealistic your demand is? If you like WoW, then stick to WoW. Also, dont come preach WoW has done it all right... WoW has lost more customers in 1 year than SWTOR got at launch.

[Gidoru]

Gidoru, let me make one thing clear.

 

I'm currently a college student. I took a course I believe translates to "computer technician". I am majoring in programming.

 

And let me tell you this right now. Comparing ANYTHING that has to do with programing to things like cars, food, restaurants ect is wrong to the point where we find it insulting to read.

I don't care what "context" you put it in. Its NOTHING like those. I can't even tell you a proper analogy because its not that simple. Its not like a car engine, its not like pizza, and its not like your grandma's bakery store.

 

So please, just stop.

just... Stop.

 

P.S. Ever since I took this course I've hated the internet just that much more.

 

It is in fact quite comparable as im not comparing the finer details of a car or a movie to that of a software program.

 

On the contrary what i am doing is simply comparing the expectations for what it means for a car or movie to be feature complete or have the acceptable amount of features, to the expectations of what it means for a MMO to have the acceptable amount of features.

 

Perhaps an engine isnt the best example. Perhaps a feature like heated seats or something is more appropriate.

Lets just say that..

If you are in the market for purchasing a new car, and heated seats are a common and expected feature. You see a new car that lacks this feature. Is it reasonable for you to say, well, this car maintains the pricing standards or similar cars that have heated seats, and it lacks heated seats, but this is justified because the car is new.

 

I would suggest in this scenario, suggesting that the cars lack of features is justified by its newness its absurd.

 

Similarly i can compare a feature of a MMO (note im not saying this is an essential feature or it is one i personally want.) Say LFG system. Suppose every other MMO has one, but this one does not. It maintains similar pricing to similar style MMOs, but lacks said feature. Should we then say 'its ok, its new'

I realize that MMOs evolve over time and that feature are added. But just like it wouldnt be acceptable for your car maker to say, i will add your heated seats in your car in 6 months, it is not acceptable for a game to be missing features that are basic and expected.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[Fireline]

Hmmm, the original post seems to completely ignore the concept of multiplicative growth in quality.

 

 

 

Take, let's say, the original Everquest. As it was the basis for most MMOs today, we can consider EQ to have a base launch value of 1.

 

Take World of Warcraft, which refined, redid, and added many elements to this EQ formula at launch. We can say it has a base value of 2.

 

Take SW: The Old Republic, which has again,r refined, redid, and added many elements to the WoW formula at launch. We can say it has a base value of 4.

 

Due to the multiplicative nature of adding elements of interactivity, you can say the total amount of interactive elements and forms of combinational 'gameplay' in these games is increased by its base value every 2 years.

 

So in 5 years from launch, EQ becomes 5, WoW becomes 10, and SW:ToR becomes 20.

 

 

WoW may CURRENTLY have a total gameplay value of 9 now (2 + (7years/2)*2), while SW:TOR only has 4, but not only will SW:TOR quickly catch up as it gains a gameplay value of 4 every 2 years, versus WoW's 2, it will eventually overtake WoW in gameplay value.

 

 

These numbers are purely representative, but the concept of a larger base multiplier is KEY when evaluating game content that is consistently updated. The numbers will hopefully allow people to understand that.

 

 

TLDR: No, you can't judge a game that's constantly being updated at launch versus one that's been out 7 years. This is a horribly blind view of game design. For games that are constantly updated, you need to consider the base multiplier, and you have completely ignored that. You have ignored a KEY element of game design when it comes to exponential complexity in growth of continually updated software.

 

So yes, it is a perfectly reasonable, sound approach to the MMORPG to say you cannot compare total gameplay value of two games when they've been launched 7 years apart.

 

 

So basically, I should unsub and come back in 5-7 years if I want an MMO according to todays standards?

[Gidoru]

Gosh i dont know what to tell you. Perfection for yesterday you claim, yet you have no notion of what that implies.

 

several years of development went to WoW before it released, i dont know how many but i believe around the same time it took for this game. Add to that 7 years of revenue/funded development and 4 expansion packs retail sale.

 

You expect a company to make an investment propotional to the years of development before release + 7 years of revenue and development, so a 12 year development cycle, to happen in 6 funded without any revenue from the product.

 

Do you realise how ridiculous and unrealistic your demand is? If you like WoW, then stick to WoW. Also, dont come preach WoW has done it all right... WoW has lost more customers in 1 year than SWTOR got at launch.

 

Let me summarize your reply.

 

1. Use the arguments i stated are invalid but expanded and reworded and this without proving them to be valid. Check

2. Assume i am making demands or complaining when i went through great lengths to state my actual intention and clearly stated i am not trying to do what you are accusing me of. Check

 

Cool. Just another another i person that lacks reading comprehension and or jumps to post a reply without thinking.

[NovusAnimus]

So basically, I should unsub and come back in 5-7 years if I want an MMO according to todays standards?

 

If you had never played WoW before, I would say this is actually a reasonable decision.

 

I bet good money you have though, and I bet good money most people here have played a lot of WoW. So the investment in something new with a higher base multiplier will pay off for those of us burnt out on WoW (most of the human race at this point).

[Atalantia]

I enjoy the game the way it is without LFG, and all the addons that WoW has and the 2 button macro system of Rift

 

Probably why I dont play either any longer

[dharh]

So basically, I should unsub and come back in 5-7 years if I want an MMO according to todays standards?

 

Today's standards? There are standards? What are they, and what happens when I disagree with them? Are they WoW standards? If so, then even WoW fails at its own standards.

[Nemmar]

Let me summarize your reply.

 

1. Use the arguments i stated are invalid but expanded and reworded and this without proving them to be valid. Check

2. Assume i am making demands or complaining when i went through great lengths to state my actual intention and clearly stated i am not trying to do what you are accusing me of. Check

 

Cool. Just another another i person that lacks reading comprehension and or jumps to post a reply without thinking.

 

Oh dear... you're even worse than i thought.

 

There is much invalid with your original post, even the comparison itself is dumb and you assume that some features arent here due to incompetence when in fact they are design choices.

Also, you dont speak for the majority of people nor are the people of this forum representative of the majority of players.

 

This is a good game. Any normal people who has half a brain-cell understands that.

Unfortunely, the kids think beeing critical over everything is beeing cool and thus we have you. Cool? Nope. Check

Edited January 1, 2012 by Nemmar

[Fireline]

If you had never played WoW before, I would say this is actually a reasonable decision.

 

I bet good money you have though, and I bet good money most people here have played a lot of WoW. So the investment in something new with a higher base multiplier will pay off for those of us burnt out on WoW (most of the human race at this point).

 

I played WoW for 1 and a half years, and stopped last june or july, at this point after having played this genre for quite a while now, I'm uterly bored by some of the basics such as the combat for instance, I am not pointing it as a flaw in SW or anything, the combat type is well done for what it is(except that delay thing), I just think MMO's needs to move forward, and the combat is one of the things-

 

Today's standards? There are standards? What are they, and what happens when I disagree with them? Are they WoW standards? If so, then even WoW fails at its own standards.

 

Let me point out to you some of today's standards that have got nothing, if barelly anything to do with WoW.

 

Target of target feature

Focus frame

being ablet to resize my UI (being generous here, could ask much more of an UI) try playing in a 32 inch screen and see the ability buttons the size of my head is just retarded)

A decent Auction House (one that doesn't make me fear going to post items in it at least just because it anoys me to no end)

Some kind of more meaningful PvP I can take some pride on.

 

Do you think any of these shouldn't be a standard for a traditional type of MMORPG, with the basic MMORPG combat that SW, and many other games has?

Edited January 1, 2012 by Fireline

[Nemmar]

I played WoW for 1 and a half years, and stopped last june or july, at this point after having played this genre for quite a while now, I'm uterly bored by some of the basics such as the combat for instance, I am not pointing it as a flaw in SW or anything, the combat type is well done for what it is(except that delay thing), I just think MMO's needs to move forward, and the combat is one of the things-

 

 

 

Let me point out to you some of today's standards that have got nothing, if barelly anything to do with WoW.

 

Target of target feature

Focus frame

being ablet to resize my UI (being generous here, could ask much more of an UI) try playing in a 32 inch screen and see the ability buttons the size of my head is just retarded

A decent Auction House (one that doesn't make me fear going to post items in it at least just because it anoys me to no end)

Some kind of more meaningful PvP I can take some pride on.

 

Secondary issues are secondary.

[Andryah]

Ability delay due to animations.

Thats all i need, it's a gamebreaker.

 

This indicates that you are kind of a rigid person, and lack the ability to adapt to changes in your environment, let alone any constraints.

 

This leads me to believe that in your case, it is you that is the game breaker.

 

/two cents.

[Fireline]

I enjoy the game the way it is without LFG, and all the addons that WoW has and the 2 button macro system of Rift

 

Probably why I dont play either any longer

 

You raised an interesting point there, macros are definitly a very good adition to a game, but they have to be done right.

 

Your comparison however is wrong, WoW and Rift are nothing alike when it comes to macros.

 

WoW macros don't allow you to make 2 button macros like rift did, when well done (like in WoW) macros are a very fun to play with, and increase the convinience of play, without making it stupid like rift.

 

Im gonna give you an eg,

 

I play a sith assassin, got my Vanish(instant stealth in combat) kind of ability, like in WoW, and my cloak of shadows(removes dots, dots break stealth) kind of ability, just like WoW did.

 

Now, in WoW there are multiple situations, I had a bind just to vanish, for when i got no dots on me, had a bind just to cloak of shadows to remove dots and not be affected by magic, then i had a bind that would do both at the same time.

I could in this case press cloak of shadows and then vanish, which would require me to press 1 more button than I would have (and I have to in SWTOR) mind these 2 abilities dont use GCD, so can always fire at the same time.

 

This doesn't make the game easy mode for me, its just convinient, WoW had overall a very good implementation of macros.

[WickedDjinn]

I played WoW for 1 and a half years, and stopped last june or july, at this point after having played this genre for quite a while now, I'm uterly bored by some of the basics such as the combat for instance, I am not pointing it as a flaw in SW or anything, the combat type is well done for what it is(except that delay thing), I just think MMO's needs to move forward, and the combat is one of the things-

 

 

 

Let me point out to you some of today's standards that have got nothing, if barelly anything to do with WoW.

 

Target of target feature

Focus frame

being ablet to resize my UI (being generous here, could ask much more of an UI) try playing in a 32 inch screen and see the ability buttons the size of my head is just retarded)

A decent Auction House (one that doesn't make me fear going to post items in it at least just because it anoys me to no end)

Some kind of more meaningful PvP I can take some pride on.

 

Do you think any of these shouldn't be a standard for a traditional type of MMORPG, with the basic MMORPG combat that SW, and many other games has?

 

Those are secondary features you would like to have. That doesn't make them standards.

 

Especially considering that alot of what you are listed came about as player created mods in most MMO's and not from the games themselves...

[Lukeios]

"This game is new" is an acceptable excuse. I'm saying it right now: The game is new and I like it despite it's purported flaws. Look up "Software Development Life Cycle" and then "Maintenance" under the waterfall model. Congratulations, you know a little more about the accepted norms in software development.

 

It's likely been mentioned already, but in response to the original comparisons: It's not unheard of for cars to be recalled due to defects, or for movies to be released with an extended edition with content that was not originally provided in the movie theater.

 

Now, if you stand by the notion that something you pay for is 'unacceptable', then I suppose it would be reasonable for me to assert that you stop paying for it. I don't know why you think people can't make an excuse for a company based on an accepted norm within the industry.

 

/shrug

[Fireline]

Secondary issues are secondary.

 

That is the problem about stating opinion as a fact.

 

The deal is, for me and others, these few options I put are not secondary, I see this game with an amazing emphasis on the storyline which I am enjoying a lot, but then these few features that (for me) should be mandatory are not implemented at launch, and don't even geta timeframe for it.

Even worst, BW is already focusing on new operations and general content instead of quickly getting this done, its just something I cannot fathom.

 

Alas, I am never going to tell you to unsub from this mmo to go play another over anything. But as a paying customer I do have the right to ask, if only that, for certain features tha i deem necessary to enjoy myself.

[Reaperchris]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

Movies can be perfected to have no glitches or bugs. MMOs will ALWAYS have bugs and glitches so the preface for your entire argument is somewhat flawed. The game is an MMO, MMO's are bound to have glitches especially new ones. So yes it is an acceptable excuse.

[dharh]

I played WoW for 1 and a half years, and stopped last june or july, at this point after having played this genre for quite a while now, I'm uterly bored by some of the basics such as the combat for instance, I am not pointing it as a flaw in SW or anything, the combat type is well done for what it is(except that delay thing), I just think MMO's needs to move forward, and the combat is one of the things-

 

 

 

Let me point out to you some of today's standards that have got nothing, if barelly anything to do with WoW.

 

Target of target feature

Focus frame

being ablet to resize my UI (being generous here, could ask much more of an UI) try playing in a 32 inch screen and see the ability buttons the size of my head is just retarded)

A decent Auction House (one that doesn't make me fear going to post items in it at least just because it anoys me to no end)

Some kind of more meaningful PvP I can take some pride on.

 

Do you think any of these shouldn't be a standard for a traditional type of MMORPG, with the basic MMORPG combat that SW, and many other games has?

 

ToT as far as im concerned is a meaningless feature that caters to people who want to look at _windows_ instead of mobs to figure stuff out, the same people that want combat info to show up in chat, AND the same people that want a bloody combat meter. I don't consider it a standard I find important.

 

Focus Frame. Why.jpg? We can already see the entire bloody raid force in a window. Why do you need a focus? I play EQ, we don't have either of these and I am perfectly satisfied with that. Though we do have a ToT window, that I do not use.

 

It would be nice if the UI was re-sizable yes. Do I consider it a make or break for release? Hell No.

 

The Auction House AKA the GTN is pretty much the _only_ thing I actually agree with. One guy, with a decent amount of forethought (ME) could have come up with something better. As it is, not only is not efficient, it is actually broken in the features it _does_ have.

 

PVP seems fine to me. I don't give two craps about open world PVP or open world PVP rewards. Sometimes, late at night, I despise people actually grow a ***** over being on leader boards.

 

TL;DR: pretty much no, I do not think your list is a good standard feature set all new MMOs should have out of the gate.

[Ahlin]

My personal complaint is the game engine. The way the animation/cast time system works in SWTOR is honestly gamebreakingly bad. Serious raiding and PVP will be basically impossible with the way it is currently implemented. The combat looks amazing but feels incredibly clunky.

[killerc]

i love this game!!!

[monegames]

Focus Frame. Why.jpg? We can already see the entire bloody raid force in a window. Why do you need a focus? I play EQ, we don't have either of these and I am perfectly satisfied with that. Though we do have a ToT window, that I do not use.

 

so EQ(a game stuck in 1999) is the standard for MMOs today right?

[FourTwent]

Good post but the fanbois will be in here soon insulting you and telling to you go back to wow or something silly like that.

 

and then the trolls will be right behind them to back him up. sounds fair right?

[FourTwent]

The deal is, for me and others, these few options I put are not secondary, I see this game with an amazing emphasis on the storyline which I am enjoying a lot, but then these few features that (for me) should be mandatory are not implemented at launch, and don't even geta timeframe for it.

 

sounds like you need to unsub and then come back in a year

 

for me, i'd rather stick with it. level up some alts and be ready for when the changes happen

[jndca]

Considering WOW had carte blanche to screw with millions of people at launch and still get away with it, i get to cut SWTOR some slack kthx.

[Joatgamer]

I think that it's unfair to judge SW:TOR based on WoW, after WoW has been out for years. If you're going to compare to WoW, do so on Vanilla Launch WoW. Can you even remember that far back? Of days where Ret Paladins had to refresh seals, warriors didn't wield giant two-handed weapons in each hand, people didn't have 150,000 HP, or do 30,000 DPS.

 

I think SW:TOR is well above the curve for MMO's on their launch dates. Bravo, and I can't wait to see what the future holds for this game.

[alkanterah]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

I'm reminded of an interview I read recently with one of the developers behind Zelda and he was commenting on how he was looking forward to moving on to another franchise. The reason was production on franchise games tend to involve making sure everything that made the game great in the previous entry had to still be present while only later opening up for innovation. Problem being that time runs out as costs run up. This was about franchise games in general, not just Zelda.

 

MMOG's are almost of a franchise than a genre. They all cater to the exact same crowd and need to have everything all the others had before it on the plate to be considered a success.

 

It seems reasonable to say that SWTOR should have all the features that WoW has as of 2011 rather than it did in 2004. But both had a development time to work with and and it's simply unrealistic to say that SWTOR should launch with that amount of content, and all the features that came with it. There has to be a significant amount of time put into making the game stand apart, and while Bioware's focus on story content isn't for everyone it's certainly done it's share to consume development time.

 

No MMOG is ever going to be released that has all that WoW has. To expect as much is going to leave you eternally unhappy with MMOG's. With every new title comes that long period of time waiting for new patches and new content and some will stick to it while others don't. How well SWTOR will fare will be determined by how quickly and reliably they can get that content out the door. As of yet I'm not impressed.

 

Small patches so far and little information on what's to come (yes I mean the sticky) has me more concerned than any missing features from launch.