B3-S1 Bessi at 5/11 and RNG of training modules

[LJ_Gibbs]

7 hours ago, nimaus said:

Agree, before we speculate things, let's get confirmations from the dev first coz this just seems a bit too unreasonable to be intended and it just jumps too far from the progression in lvl. 1-4. Tbh i wouldn't at all be surprised if this is a bug or smth and that there's smth unintentionally missing - so dev pls respond!

 

edit: also anyone knows if these modules can be traded or given to other player? I haven't tried it but i suppose would make it much easier if we can.

They need people grinding away.  It's an MMO.  While it may not be intended... I am sure it could be an outcome they are not against.

[LJ_Gibbs]

1 hour ago, VilianSW said:

Aren't the modules character-bound? No trading, I guess.

Also, there i's been zero of communication with devs or Jackie for almost two weeks now. Nothing on Bessie, on bugged dialogs in new story, on shaders going wild with half of armors. Nothing for at least 12 days straight. This is getting concerning.

The silence is deafening.

[HypSpec]

7 hours ago, nimaus said:

Agree, before we speculate things, let's get confirmations from the dev first coz this just seems a bit too unreasonable to be intended and it just jumps too far from the progression in lvl. 1-4. Tbh i wouldn't at all be surprised if this is a bug or smth and that there's smth unintentionally missing - so dev pls respond!

The "please tell us..." line to Jackie was me trying to give them the benefit of the doubt - I truly do not think this was their intent. That said, we're hearing nothing to confirm an issue or if anything will be addressed.

<fingers crossed>

[casirabit]

On 6/15/2024 at 4:33 AM, RyvickTheFirst said:

Just an FYI It appears (at least on CZ-198) if you have say 4 quests picked up, do 2 then try to use another role you WILL NOT be able to because the number of dailies left on the console is less than 2. You will have to drop dailies until there are at least 2 on the console in order to use a Role chip. I found this out the annoyingly hard way.

I normally use one role per character as that way I can finish everything for that role before I switch to another character to do another role.   It is easier for me to use the tank role with my healer.  Since it works across my legacy it works better that way for me.

Edited June 17 by casirabit

[ThrilliganX]

On 6/14/2024 at 7:03 AM, Pietrastor said:

Weekly caps, total caps, 197 different currencies, hourly timers, bound-per-character tokens, mandatory RNG to progress etc.

And this is just 1 minigame/side-questchain.

Just ridiculous.

Absolutely agree!  Hammer hit head of nail!

If this is THIS frustrating for me as a veteran player, I can't imagine how confusing and frustrating it is for a new player.

 

Time gating things with a weekly currency cap is more than enough to meet their intended goal of stretching out the content and getting the player to keep logging in.

 

I did everything as efficient as possible and am out of currencies and at 10/15 missions for the week. 

If I can't pull the 5 I need in 48 attempts next week (a statistical unlikelihood), I will lose another week and be a week behind everyone else.  Through no fault of my own.

Would have been so simple and straightforward just to require 6 missions or one weekly clear for each spec in each of the 3 daily areas for each level, and you could have progressed from earliest to latest content. 

Would have ended up with same amount of engagement and screentime without the frustration and spending 2 cargo bays for missions and currencies.

 

The RNG missions at step 5-9 is a step way over the line. 

We all know MMOs are addiction machines, but gating content with RNG is abusive behavior. 

As many problems as you have had and players you have lost to RNG over the years, you think someone would know better.

Who at Broadsword is greenlighting these design decisions?

 

When I saw a certain new community manager's name in the credits to the masterpiece that was Endwalker, it gave me hope for this game because that other game does one thing extremely well: 

It goes out of its way to make sure the player doesn't have a bad time. 

The design choices in this game have been trending sharply the other way for some time now. 

The combat experience for the last 3 updates has been a slog made worse by that fact that none of those areas, voss, kessan's landing, or hutta, or what we did there, mattered at all to the core story. 

And the hyper confusing pathing  and mob density for the newer daily areas makes me not want to play them at all, even on a stealther.

I am praying for a story skip if we get an 8.0 because I am not taking one more toon through meaningless frustrating content like gonk frogger in the sewers of hutta. 

 

Sub ends tomorrow and was thinking about renewing, but have decided not to due to the disrespect I feel as a player due to the design choices in this venture system. 

Edited June 18 by ThrilliganX

[nimaus]

On 6/16/2024 at 9:15 PM, VilianSW said:

Also, there i's been zero of communication with devs or Jackie for almost two weeks now.

I've seen them disappear sometimes for months but that's a long time ago.

But since they just handed the game over to different hands, I guess we only have to see what's their manner of communication - but til now it seems like they want to minimalize everything, which includes communication too. I mean imagine if they respond to the PVP change thread lol

But hopefully, they will respond more.

[DarthNillard]

On 6/12/2024 at 4:08 PM, HobbesToo said:

I don't see what the issue is. The developers equated an unlocked B3-S1 with a Wings of the Architect. It's going to take time, and if we have excess area training module then that means we can use them in later levels.  There is no need to fix a system that isn't broken.

*Keith burner account alert

No way a regular player of this game would have this take lmao!

[Saeten]

Another week and another RNG fail of getting ANY of the three required areas for training. I cannot progress the training of Bessi. Broadsword please respond to this issue. It needs a major fix.
@KeithKanneg @JackieKo @EricMusco

3/5 CZ
1/5 BH
2/5 Iokath

[Ulathar]

haha, after finishing the 5 CZ-198 last week, the first modules I get from my chip this week are 2 (two!) CZ...
Already used all available resources (except the chips I'll get throughout the week)...but still missing 3 BH modules... 

I don't mind a grind in a MMO, but it has to be fun. This is not fun.

Edited June 18 by Ulathar

[Vikerl]

I have about 20 modules for Yavin 4 and I don't want to use them because I might need them later? Besides, I've already reached the weekly limit. Of course, I haven't reached 5/5 on any of the required modules yet. That's pretty annoying.

[HypSpec]

1 hour ago, Saeten said:

Another week and another RNG fail of getting ANY of the three required areas for training. I cannot progress the training of Bessi. Broadsword please respond to this issue. It needs a major fix.
@KeithKanneg @JackieKo @EricMusco

3/5 CZ
1/5 BH
2/5 Iokath

I ended last week at 4/5 CZ, 2/5 BH, and 3/5 Iokath (so 6 outstanding for level 5). I have not logged since reset, but my fear is either not getting the ones I need or getting more than I need when the 'slot pulls' are very limited, and that some of us may get stuck on a level for weeks.

If the devs are equating Bessi to Wings, maybe the RNG was to represent something akin to the group rolls for the drop after NiM Brontes clear? Just trying to understand the thinking in the absence of any comms from them.

At the end of the day, Bessi is a skin. Don't get me wrong, it is a really cool skin, but it's not like she is going to be a superior comp. I can deal with some RNG but I think the evidence presented in these posts confirm the calibration of the odds needs serious attention.

As others have said, we can deal with a heavy grind, but the futility of dealing with horrible odds is a bitter pill to keep swallowing.

[Saeten]

18 minutes ago, HypSpec said:

If the devs are equating Bessi to Wings, maybe the RNG was to represent something akin to the group rolls for the drop after NiM Brontes clear?

Where is this NiM .0001% drop coming from? The Venture system was to be a fun new way to acquire a unique item. Play at your own pace for it, etc. 

 

Quote

To break a Venture down to its basics, players who participate in this new system will complete a relatively long series of tasks to receive a unique reward. Ventures are designed with the solo player in mind, so while grouping up may speed up the process, or make Heroic Missions easier, everything can be accomplished without needing to coordinate with other players. In this first Venture, players embark on an effort to restore functionality to B3-S1, the Basilisk Prototype that Lane has been working on, eventually unlocking her as a full-fledged companion.

Granted, if this new companion is just a skin... then meh and double meh. wonder what "full fledged companion" means. Knowing the past where they nerfed the OP Treek and other companion nerfs.. this may not bode well.

[Saeten]

So... I can use other alts to train Bessi. Each can do the daily memory chip and RNG one-arm bandit module pull for 2 modules and see if I get any of the the three required....  ugh.  painful  so far, no luck on five alts and maxed out memory chips for the weekly so time to stop the madness and try again next week I guess.

[SithLikeTraps]

I was pretty excited about Bessie at first, I thought they'd finally develop something new for the game. Now it's obvious that this whole Bessie thing is just one more way to try to force the players to grind the same old content that we've done 1000 times already. Up to level 5 it was more or less ok - yes it's the same content but if you didn't like a certain daily area you could do it in another one and though the missions were random it was pretty easy to get the type that you'd need.

But at level 5 it's only those three selected areas multiplied by the horrible RNG chances. And I guess the idea was that we would grind the other areas to get the currencies to buy more random missions and so on and so forth. And if I'm not mistaken those data items that drop from the mobs are also character bound, so you need to have them on a single character to progress?

Not gonna play this grind minigame. I'll still keep feeding Bessie her memory cores and once I get all 5 I need for a planet I'll consider doing them if SWTOR is still afloat by then, but I'm not wasting my free time on this mind numbing exercise, there are much more engaging and interesting games out there.

[Saeten]

Update: I used all my Memory Chips to get 2 training modules each on about 12 alts...   Got lucky and finished a couple areas. Now I have bound modules on like 14 characters and excess currency tokens (maxed out the weekly caps).
4/5 BH
5/5 CZ
5/5 Iokath

might spend some prototype currency to see if I can get RNG BH..  It's just painful....
 

[Clonelimit]

I want to add my voice to this thread also.

I was really interested in the venture system, however like many of you after level 5 I really dislike it. RNG was not an issue before level 5, you got a couple quests you didn't need, but the majority of the drops kept you engaged with Bessie, and you played those other training modules to bank the currency for next week. it was fun.

Now it is not.  This morning after being capped for weekly currency when I consumed last week's overflow items, I logged in all 9 of my characters and loaded up Bessie with a memory card ready to go....  out of 18 training modules I got one module I can use.

 

ONE.

 

I am already capped for weekly currency; I have a bunch of items ready to consume ready for next week.

I have 3/4 of a full vault of different planet training modules saved to be used when the time comes.

 

I believe the RNG has purposely been lowered significantly to increase subscription players by gating progression for Bessie behind weekly resets, thus dragging on our subscription. I really do think this is intentional and is simply greed.

Why else would there be such a significant shift in the RNG? 

My nine characters currently have Bessie as a companion... with nowhere to go!

I could spend the last of the weekly currency that i have saved for the research upgrade... and perhaps get a training module I could use from the droid... but based on my experience from last week and this week that is HIGHLY unlikely.

that's the thing... if it was just one person with sour grapes with the rng.. I would say bad luck try again next week, but the fact we are all in the same boat saying the same thing here.... really reinforces something is really wrong with ventures.

 

Rant over 

 

 

[Saeten]

Got super lucky and got my 5th BH on a prototype module purchase.
Lvl 6/11 to complete now.
Onderon
Oricon
Ruhnuk

Still 5 modules each.
And the alt got the 3 new training modules from completing 5/11, not on my main that I wanted to do the full story and Ventures on. The 3 modules given were proper Onderon, Oricon and Ruhnuk.

So, if I derived the timeline for 6-11 or 6 more rounds of 5 modules each, this will take 10-12 more weeks depending on currency caps to finish? Grindy and tedious at this point...

Edited June 18 by Saeten

[HypSpec]

Ok, so it sounds like when we advance a level, we should see one of each of the next level locations (or 3 of 15 required), but after that it is RNG.

Question: (I may not understand the use of alts correctly) The chip cap of 10 is legacy-wide right? Meaning regardless of the number of alts, you can only gain 10 per week and so only access to 20 missions from them. Or do I have that wrong?

Some math: (does not account for buying missions from HK)

• 3 sets of 5 missions for three locations for 15 overall per level
• We'll assume 1 of each for the prior level advancement which means 3 sets of 4 for 12 overall per level that are subject to RNG
• There are 14 possible locations (unless I am mistaken)

For each memory chip consumed we have a 21.4% (with 2 'pulls'/chip) chance of hitting one of the three locations.

Once we have completed one location, each memory chip provides a 14.3% (with 2 'pulls'/chip) chance, then a 7.1% (with 2 'pulls'/chip) chance after two are completed.

During a given week we would need 12 'hits' out of 20 'pulls' - a hit rate of 60%, presenting a completely unrealistic shot at leveling in that week considering the odds above.

If we apply the best of the three % odds (21.4%), it would take 52 'pulls' (20 'pulls' per week) to get 12 locations - obviously the reality is greater because of the declining odds once you have completed a location.

To be fair though, the remaining weeks are easier because of the 40,000 missions in our inventories, but if you have not stockpiled the four of each prior to the next level, please see the odds above on your chances of blowing another week with no ability to advance.

/cathartic analysis

Edited June 18 by HypSpec

[Ranadiel_Marius]

4 hours ago, Vikerl said:

I have about 20 modules for Yavin 4 and I don't want to use them because I might need them later? Besides, I've already reached the weekly limit. Of course, I haven't reached 5/5 on any of the required modules yet. That's pretty annoying.

I'm assuming 20 is hyperbole, but you only need to save 4 of those Yavin IV modules. Each of the locations requires 5 modules, and you'll get a free Yavin IV module when you complete level 7.

4 hours ago, HypSpec said:

I ended last week at 4/5 CZ, 2/5 BH, and 3/5 Iokath (so 6 outstanding for level 5). I have not logged since reset, but my fear is either not getting the ones I need or getting more than I need when the 'slot pulls' are very limited, and that some of us may get stuck on a level for weeks.

If you get stuck on a level and are about to hit your currency cap with nothing to spend it on, just spend a full week's worth of currency on modules. That will give you 75 pulls (20 from Memory Chips, 30 from role data, and 25 from prototype data). That might not be a guarantee that you'll get what you need, but I'm something like 3 short of the complete set for the venture after 80-90 pulls. So you'll probably get most of what you need.

On that topic here is a full list of what you'll need from RNG, subtract 6 from the role modules if you are already on level 5 since this is for the entire venture:

• 10 x Tank (9 if including freebie from completing level 6)
• 10 x Healing (9 if including freebie from completing level 6)
• 10 x Damage (9 if including freebie from completing level 6)
• 4 x CZ-198
• 4 x Black Hole
• 4 x Iokath
• 4 x Ruhnuk
• 4 x Oricon
• 4 x Onderon
• 4 x Yavin 4
• 4 x Kessan's Landing
• 4 x Ossus
• 4 x Makeb
• 4 x Manaan
• 4 x Section X

1 hour ago, Saeten said:

So, if I derived the timeline for 6-11 or 6 more rounds of 5 modules each, this will take 10-12 more weeks depending on currency caps to finish? Grindy and tedious at this point...

I haven't actually triggered level 6 yet, do the prices for upgrades and uploading data increase? I was assuming they would stay consistent, which would put it possible to finish level 10 four weeks when only accounting for currency caps. I don't think there is anyway for it to reach 10 weeks.

Note: Week 11 appears to just be for B3-S1's armored customization, so I'm not including it.

32 minutes ago, HypSpec said:

Question: (I may not understand the use of alts correctly) The chip cap of 10 is legacy-wide right? Meaning regardless of the number of alts, you can only gain 10 per week and so only access to 20 missions from them. Or do I have that wrong?

 

Personally, my main use of alts is just to get extra memory chips on day 1 of a week (start with 8 without doing anything other than dropping by Lane's lab), which is probably unnecessary because those aren't a major bottleneck, but eh.

But yes even using alts, you are capped at 20 training modules from memory chips. The potential advantages of using alts are that they don't share mission resets. So if there are two easy missions on a planet, you can do those two missions twice in one day if you do them on alts. Or more storage space for modules.

Personally, after week 1, I have limited myself to just using one character because it makes keeping track of what modules I need easier and my stealth character is going to finish the dailies faster anyways. 

[JackieKo]

Hey all! 

We've been keeping an eye on the feedback coming in from this thread. and wanted to say we will be making some adjustments to help with this friction point. Will come back with more details when I have them. Appreciate the feedback!  

[HypSpec]

Yay!! Thank you for looking into this!

[HobbesToo]

I needed 2 CZ-198 and 1 Black Hole training modules to finish level 5. After burning through 39 training modules today I only need the 1 Black Hole training module. On the plus side, I don't need to roll for any more training modules for any of the other planets or levels. I'll try again next week with the 10 memory chips you can get per week. 

Edited June 19 by HobbesToo

[The_Hightower]

The quick and dirty solution may be to double the weekly cap for Memory Chips to 20 which should be easy to implement. Thereby, we have a better chance at RNG and since the total cap is 20 this should not require much more than adjusting this integer in the programming code. Furthermore, since the weekly material cap stays the same, the progress achievable per week is not increased. The total cap could also be doubled to 40 but this does can be done in a second step in case this would require more testing.

My current workaround and suggestions how to adress the current issues more sophistically and more accomodating to solo/casual players is provided further below. Some general considerations first.

Bessi RNG is annoying, no question, much like any RNG is annoying which actually blocks you from progress. Problem is that in SWTOR many systems start heavy/exclusively RNG and are alleviated later, e.g., the Command XP system starting at 5.0 when you exclusively got gear from command crates and several hundreds were needed to obtain all gear pieces at max level, because it was completely random whether or not a gear piece was in the crate and, if yes, which one it was. I got several duplicates while having only half of the required gear pieces. Likewise, at 6.x the random set piece from Kai Zykken had no RNG protection afair, but RNG protection was introduced later etc. Sorry, but when will you recognize that there need to be some RNG protection, fall-backs etc.

The current problem arose, because the venture could not be really tested on PTS. It was simply not possible to advance to repair level 5 on PTS which would have surfaced this problem earlier. No limit for the repair materials on PTS at least for all builts prior to the final one would have been helpful.

My current workaround for the RNG problem, because I'm still missing two Black Hole modules, is as follows:

a) I've got 99 level 80 toon on my main server. Before anyone enrages about that please read my suggestions below.

b) I'm summoning Bessy on a toon, check whether one or more correct Training Module(s) is/are obtained or not. If yes, I'm doing the correct Training Module(s) and note down in an Excel sheet the name and the planet of the unused Training Module(s). I forgot to note down the type of the Training Module, but that should be done, too.

c) I'm logging out of that toon, thereby retaining the time Bessi can be used. I'm not using this toon for anything else as long the Training Modules are not done.

d) I repeat steps b) and c) with other toons until I'm running out of Memory Chips.

e) In case the weekly cap for Defense/Combat/Support Systems Data, and Prototype Data is not reached during steps b) to d) (or by opening mat containers from previous weeks), I'm doing excess Training Modules I obtained in these steps. At repair level 5, in my case, for example, the 6th and each subsequent CZ-198 module, or, some Onderon Training Modules, since I got 10 of them.

f) I'm currently at 60/200 and 180/600 of the repair materials (I reached the weekly cap each week so far) and, thus, I won't hit the total repair material cap next week.

I'll repeat steps b) to e) next week. In case I still do not have completed stage 5, because I did not obtain the two missing Black Hole Training Modules, I'm still not at the total repair material cap. Hence, I can repeat steps b) to e) the week after next.

Provided that I get the two missing Black Hole Training Modules the week after next at the latest, I can complete repair stage 5 and spend materials on repair stage 6 and do the training modules for repair stage 6, whereof (in case the guides are correct), I already have 14 out of 15. In case I have all 15 training modules for repair stage 6 until then, I may even be able to do more repair stages.

However, even in case I should not have the 15th training modules for repair stage 6 in the week after next, I can still max out the weekly material cap and not exceeding the total cap.

Thereby, there is only a temporary setback, but not overall, since I can catch up. The only thing blocking overall progress occurs in case you cannot hit the weekly material cap because you are at the total material cap.

 

HOWEVER, I'm aware that not everybody has a sufficient number of toons on a server, and/or is willing to make them unusable for anything else except Bessi, so here are my suggestions:

 

1) Increase the total repair material cap, i.e., the cap of Combat Systems Data, Support Systems Data, Defense Systems Data and Prototype Data, by a factor of 10, i.e., to 2000 and 6000, respectively. This allows us to at least store more materials and wait for the correct training modules without loosing the possibility to completely catch up to players who got all requried Training Modules earlier.

2) In case Bessi is not summoned but the toon is logged in, her timer needs to stop which would allow us to use this toon alone (e.g. in PvP/OPs/FPs) and/or with a different companion, thereby preserving the ability to complete stored Training Modules on this toon later (e.g., at the repair stage when these modules are required) without having to summon Bessi again by spending a Memory Chip. Although this summoning would give more Training Modules, players with only a handful of level 80 toons won't be able to do all memory modules within the one-hour-Bessi time provided by the Memory Chip, in particular, in case they needed to accumulate Training Modules over several weeks.

3) Using a Memory Chip needs to increase the time Bessi is usable by one hour not reset the time Bessi is usable to one hour.
For example, in case
i) I have completed all Training Modules on my toon;
ii) I have 40 minutes Bessi-time left ;
iii) I use a Memory Chip to get new Training Modules on the same toon;

the remaining Bessi time needs to be 1 hour and 40 minutes, not 1 hour. I'm aware, that the Bessi time cannot be infinite, however, 100 hours should be possible.

With 1) the negative effects of RNG are alleviated.

With 2) and 3) players only having a handful of level 80 toons or even only one level 80 toon would not be at a disadvantage compared with players like me having enough toons to use them exclusively for Bessi for several weeks, while still having enough toons for raiding etc.

Since the whole Venture System was primarily intended for casual and/or solo players (cf. SWTOR live stream about that), changes 1) to 3) are simply a must.

 

I'm actually not a fan of being able to buy the required Training Modules for Repair Materials, even in case I can, e.g. select a CZ-198 Defense Training Module. As explained in item f) above, the repair material weekly cap is essentially the only reason which defines how fast you can progress through the repair stages. Thus, by spending repair materials on Training Modules, you will fall behind.

Edited June 19 by The_Hightower
correction of a typo, further clarification; adding a quick and dirty solution

[RyvickTheFirst]

Orrrrrr...

 

They could just add 3 consoles to Lanes room that allow you to buy each specific daily area role token. 15+ choices on each console and one console for each role Defense/Support/Combat.

Major problem solved.

[The_Hightower]

9 minutes ago, RyvickTheFirst said:

Orrrrrr...

 

They could just add 3 consoles to Lanes room that allow you to buy each specific daily area role token. 15+ choices on each console and one console for each role Defense/Support/Combat.

Major problem solved.

Which currency? Using Systems or Prototype data slows your overall progress.

Edited June 19 by The_Hightower