What is with this week's forced PVP on the GS track?

[captainbladejk]

4 hours ago, VegaMist said:

We have 11 to pick 7 out of - that's plenty of choices. More choices isn't always better - there are whole usability studies regarding that, but I won't bore you with it.

True more isn't always better, but in this case it would be. Giving more choices obliterates the argument of being forced into pvp or vice versa. give people enough to hit the weeklies from pure pvp and pure pve then let the chips fall where they may. 

4 hours ago, VegaMist said:

And I reject the argument that PVE players are forced into PVP when they have 9 more options to chose from while only needing 7 which is in the thread's title to begin with. It's not PVP players complaining about PVE objectives - it's PVE players complaining about two, TWO, PVP-focused objectives out of 11 possible offered every once in a while, not even every week. And that, at the very least, is not cool.

It comes down to this really. Can they max out their weekly progress without having to do those 2 pvp objectives? If the answer is yes then there is no issue beyond disliking certain objectives. If the answer is no they have to do those 2 pvp objectives then that is forced pvp by the very definition of it. Personally I don't think there should be any pvp objectives in what has always been a primarily pve event, especially since pvp has its own season already that doesn't feature pve objectives. But they would be to include those pvp objectives so here we are.

Simplest solution as said prior is to make sure folks can max out their progress each week without either side having to engage with the other. pvp guys can do pure pvp, and the pve folks can do pure pve, and if they want to do some of both they can. This way neither side has a reason to complain. When I say variety of objectives I don't mean the dev type solution of "just go do heroics" or flashpoints for the billionth time and that's it. I mean actual choice. Do you want to do some story quests, do you want to do general stuff in the world, do you want to do ye old heroics and flashpoints, do you want to revisit old datacron locations just because, do you want to do ye starfox rail shooter combat, do you want to do some stuff associated with OPS? Just as there's multiple flavors of ice cream there's multiple pve and pvp flavors. That list is purely to quantify and can be modified as needed. Point being if folks want to stick to their particular flavor, they should be able to do it. If they want to mix and match, they should be able to do it. 

[AFadedMemory]

10 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

True more isn't always better, but in this case it would be.

Except 3 dead game modes will literally lose needed incentives. So no it wouldn’t.

12 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

Can they max out their weekly progress without having to do those 2 pvp objectives?

The answer is literally yes. 

14 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

Personally I don't think there should be any pvp objectives in what has always been a primarily pve event, especially since pvp has its own season already that doesn't feature pve objectives

1. The PvP season is a sad replacement for rank

2. I’m pretty sure GSF doesn’t have it’s own season track.

17 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

Simplest solution

Solutions are for problems. I’m not seeing one. 

[VegaMist]

37 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

Giving more choices obliterates the argument of being forced into pvp or vice versa.

It's already obliterated by a simple math: 11 - 2 = 9. And the total needed is 7.

37 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

It comes down to this really. Can they max out their weekly progress without having to do those 2 pvp objectives?

The answer is yes they can. See the equation above.

37 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

Personally I don't think there should be any pvp objectives in what has always been a primarily pve event

Strongly disagree. Primarily doesn't mean exclusive. GS targets all players which includes PVP-ers.

37 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

This way neither side has a reason to complain.

People will always find reasons to complain, even when, objectively, no issues are present. This thread is a great example.

37 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

Just as there's multiple flavors of ice cream there's multiple pve and pvp flavors.

There can be a hundred of flavors. But if someone only likes Vanilla, they won't take advantage of them without expanding their own horizons.

37 minutes ago, captainbladejk said:

Point being if folks want to stick to their particular flavor, they should be able to do it.

They absolutely can. But they shouldn't demand that flavors other people like be removed from the menu.

Edited April 23 by VegaMist

[Stradlin]

5 hours ago, VegaMist said:

I

Strongly disagree. Primarily doesn't mean exclusive. GS targets all players which includes PVP-ers.

 

It is crazy one could be brazen enough to even claim otherwise. From Season 1 onwards, GS has been all about covering all aspects of the game, PvP/GSF most certainly included. It should be impossible to have an argument about  this, heh.

 

Edited April 23 by Stradlin

[captainbladejk]

11 hours ago, VegaMist said:

It's already obliterated by a simple math: 11 - 2 = 9. And the total needed is 7.

Read what I said again because you missed "or vice versa" part of the statement. I'm saying there needs to be enough so neither side has to engage with the other unless they choose to. In other words you could see more pvp objectives and be able to complete it based solely on pvp if you wished. pvp guy can get his 7 pvp objectives done and not have to touch pve, pve guy can get or continue to get his 7 pve objectives done without having to touch pvp. If folks want to mix and match they can. 

11 hours ago, VegaMist said:

Strongly disagree. Primarily doesn't mean exclusive. GS targets all players which includes PVP-ers.

Never said it meant exclusive or that it had to. I simply gave my own thoughts on the matter. If they're going to have galactic seasons and would be to include pvp objectives, there needs to be enough objectives so neither side has to engage with the other. Not only this but if they're going to also give pvp it's own season track exclusively to it, there also needs to be a pve exclusive track to go with it. Otherwise I guarantee you will see more threads like this one of pve folks feeling like pvp is allowed to intrude and force itself into their gameplay, regardless of whether one wants to believe it's valid or not. To some it can appear that there is favoritism being shown towards pvp by allowing them to essentially double dip with an exclusive track of their own plus that of galactic seasons on top of it, with no pve exclusive tracks. 

11 hours ago, VegaMist said:

There can be a hundred of flavors. But if someone only likes Vanilla, they won't take advantage of them without expanding their own horizons.

It's true they won't be able to expand their horizons if they don't ever try but one can't make them try either. And we've seen from the conquest changes that you and I both absolutely despise where their solution is purely "go do heroics", you can't force people to play something they don't want to play or do something they don't want to do. If I'm someone who likes vanilla, they can try to get me to chocolate, rocky road, and so on, but if don't want to do it, I'm not doing it and shouldn't be punished for it or made to feel like I'm being punished. More on this momentarily. 

11 hours ago, VegaMist said:

They absolutely can. But they shouldn't demand that flavors other people like be removed from the menu.

For this bit here, we've seen the devs included pvp objectives in galactic seasons whether one wishes to believe it's good or bad. We have a player who feels there is not enough of his flavor of ice cream in stock without being forced into trying something else he's not interested in, whether one agrees with it or not. So what can we do. First examine the stocks to see how much there is. We see there is a shortage on flavors pertaining to pvp, so what do we do there? We increase stocks to make sure there is enough so the folks who prefer that can do that exclusively if they wish or mix and match. For the pve side of things, do we have enough of the major flavors in stock such as OPs, heroics, story, flashpoints, and rail shooter. 

Folks on both sides should be able to clear it using their major flavor if they want, which is the point. I don't see anyone saying the pvp objectives need to be outright removed. What I see is folks saying there is not enough of their flavor in stock with the limited supplies as is and there needs to be more flavor stocked. 

[VegaMist]

1 hour ago, captainbladejk said:

Read what I said again because you missed "or vice versa" part of the statement.

Are you advocating for more PVP objectives on GS track?

1 hour ago, captainbladejk said:

If they're going to have galactic seasons and would be to include pvp objectives, there needs to be enough objectives so neither side has to engage with the other.

I don't see PVP players complaining about having to do PVE objectives, so they are fine with what's offered. We have PVE player (with support) complaining about the presence of PVP objectives on GS track which is unwarranted considering they have 9 others to choose from.

1 hour ago, captainbladejk said:

If I'm someone who likes vanilla, they can try to get me to chocolate, rocky road, and so on, but if don't want to do it, I'm not doing it and shouldn't be punished for it or made to feel like I'm being punished.

If you only like Vanilla then, sure, stick to it. But simultaneously complaining about presence of Mint or Cherry options is selfish to say the least.

1 hour ago, captainbladejk said:

For this bit here, we've seen the devs included pvp objectives in galactic seasons whether one wishes to believe it's good or bad. We have a player who feels there is not enough of his flavor of ice cream in stock without being forced into trying something else he's not interested in, whether one agrees with it or not.

And the said player decided to blame PVP when they have 9 others to choose from. I feel like we're going in circles.

1 hour ago, captainbladejk said:

I don't see anyone saying the pvp objectives need to be outright removed.

It's literally in the title of this thread as well as in the very first post.

Edited April 23 by VegaMist
Typos (it's always typos)

[Stradlin]

"Hey, what's with these two veggie burgers in the menu of my favorite burger place? I don't like veggie burgers so they should be removed.  Sure, there are  also nine different beef burgers to choose from but that isn't the point!  Why am I forced to eat veggie burgers??"

Spoiler: you aren't. If you like beef, eat beef. You have 9 of them to choose from. Nobody is forcing you to eat every single burger from the menu. In fact you prolly live a happier life if you don't feel like you'd have to  nom every single burger every single week.

 

Edited April 23 by Stradlin

[eabevella]

I absolutely hate PvP and I don't do GSF now but I can finish 7/7 every week.

Is some weeks more painful than the others? Yes *vomit @ Onderon due to literal motion sickness*

Do I think it is a real issue? No. There are only that many PvE contents of course some will be more annoying but hey no PvP/GSF needed is good enough.

[DragoslavRadanov]

In addition to what's already been said, Galactic Seasons started earlier than pvp seasons. 6.3 (4/27/21) vs 7.2 (12/13/22) respectively. Hell in those very same patch notes https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/04272021/game-update-6.3 it's the beginning of S14 of ranked, and if you go to the 7.2 patch notes https://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/12132022/game-update-7.2-showdown-ruhnuk, we were already on galactic seasons 3 when we got pvp seasons. And if anyone remembers this article https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20211122-0 Ranked S14 ended on the release of 7.0 on 2/15/22 (Also when GS 2 started), so while GS 2 and 3 were going on we had a nearly year long silence on anything pvp related, just that we were getting a "revamp" at some point, and I think we all (especially dedicated pvpers) can see how that ended up.

Edited April 25 by DragoslavRadanov

[Liarrrra]

9 hours ago, DragoslavRadanov said:

I think we all (especially dedicated pvpers) can see how that ended up.

 

[BulbulusTheGreat]

yeah its annoying becuse i never ever did any pvp and now im forced to join it for GS, this isn't just a problem for me its problem for my would be team becuse i'd just hold them back and we'd all lose as im not interested nor equipped nor knowledgable about pvp, pvp should stay in pvp seasons for pvpers, sadly this isn't the first nor probably last time it'll be added on GS, i think they think they're fixing pvp issues with this but what they're really doing is forcing some of us to either go die or simply not do some GS objectives.

[Darkestmonty]

4 minutes ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

yeah its annoying becuse i never ever did any pvp and now im forced to join it for GS, this isn't just a problem for me its problem for my would be team becuse i'd just hold them back and we'd all lose as im not interested nor equipped nor knowledgable about pvp, pvp should stay in pvp seasons for pvpers, sadly this isn't the first nor probably last time it'll be added on GS, i think they think they're fixing pvp issues with this but what they're really doing is forcing some of us to either go die or simply not do some GS objectives.

you had 9 other objectives to choose from. You aren't forced into PvP anymore than I am forced to play space missions or crafting missions which I skip every week they show up.

[BulbulusTheGreat]

10 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

you had 9 other objectives to choose from. You aren't forced into PvP anymore than I am forced to play space missions or crafting missions which I skip every week they show up.

9 objectives are 9 other objectives and irrelevant to the issue and yes i am forced into it in order to progress the weekly and its not comparable to other two becuse this is fighting with bunch of other people alongside bunch of other people, giving this objective to someone that never did pvp is again just setting up both that person and their team to lose, and in the end said person will probably be "guilty" for it and we all know how toxic some pvpers can get so this further makes me not want to do it, at the end of the day i simply don't do it and make my peace with it however pvp should be in pvp season, thats what it exists for 

Edited April 25 by BulbulusTheGreat

[Ominovin]

10 minutes ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

9 objectives are 9 other objectives and irrelevant to the issue and yes i am forced into it in order to progress the weekly and its not comparable to other two becuse this is fighting with bunch of other people alongside bunch of other people, giving this objective to someone that never did pvp is again just setting up both that person and their team to lose, and in the end said person will probably be "guilty" for it and we all know how toxic some pvpers can get so this further makes me not want to do it, at the end of the day i simply don't do it and make my peace with it however pvp should be in pvp season, thats what it exists for 

Perhaps you could take a moment to explain why you feel forced to PvP?  As previously mentioned, there were plenty of non-PvP objectives and if you really want to make your point, you need to explain why the others are not an option for you (which they very well might not be).

Last week's objectives included:

• Two PvP Objectives (Arenas and Warzones)
• One Heroic Space Mission Objective (Not PvP, but probably the most skipped objective ever created)
• Two 'freebie' Objectives (Conquest points and Rishi Stronghold visit)
• One Crafting Objective (requires high-level crafting skills)
• One Seeker Droid Objective (requires level 52+ I believe)
• One Agent or Trooper Objective (could be an issue if you have no eligible character)
• One World Boss Objective (fairly low level)
• One Cross-Faction Mob Kill Objective (Requires a level 50ish+ character in each faction)
• One Level 80 Daily Mission Objective

 

Week 6 (April 16th - April 22nd)

 

Daily
Influencing the Galaxy	Earn 25,000 Personal Conquest Points across your Legacy.
Weekly	Complete any 7/11
March Across the Galaxy	Earn 200,000 Personal Conquest Points across your Legacy.
Drop In: Rishi	Visit another player's Rishi Hideout stronghold. The stronghold directory is located in the Stronghold and Crew Skills section of the Republic or Imperial Fleet.
Supplying the War Effort	Assemble materials into any of the following War Supplies: Infantry Supply Kits, Starship Weapons, Armored Vehicles, Crystal Capacitors, or a Holocron of Strategy, then assemble an Invasion Force.
Seeking Artifacts	Uncover artifacts and other lost treasures with your Seeker Droid across Alderaan, Tatooine, Hoth, and Makeb.
Fielding Loyalty	Complete Missions as a Trooper or an Agent Origin.
Liabilities of Corellia	Track down and defeat the following high profile targets on Corellia: Admiral Kalmic (Central Blastfield Shipyards - Republic), Jimme Weasle (Southern Government District - Empire), Lord Rashal (Northeastern Labor Valley - Republic), Prototype RK-4 Sentinel (Southwestern Labor Valley - Empire)
The Terrors of Taris	Defeat The Ancient One and Subject Alpha on Taris.
Storming the Battlefront	Complete Arena matches. Earn double progress for wins.
We're Not Out of This Yet	Board your personal ship and complete 2 [HEROIC] Space Missions.
Heading the Frontline	Complete Warzone matches. Earn double progress for wins.
Sweeping Ruhnuk and Kessan's Landing	Complete the mission: [WEEKLY] Daily Area: Kessan's Landing or [WEEKLY] Daily Area: Ruhnuk. (Requires a Subscription and/or access to Legacy of the Sith)

[Darkestmonty]

2 hours ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

9 objectives are 9 other objectives and irrelevant to the issue and yes i am forced into it in order to progress the weekly and its not comparable to other two becuse this is fighting with bunch of other people alongside bunch of other people, giving this objective to someone that never did pvp is again just setting up both that person and their team to lose, and in the end said person will probably be "guilty" for it and we all know how toxic some pvpers can get so this further makes me not want to do it, at the end of the day i simply don't do it and make my peace with it however pvp should be in pvp season, thats what it exists for 

Galactic Season is not and never was PvE only.

There were 11 conquests, 2 were pvp related, and you could choose 7 of the 9 non pvp conquests.

Edited April 25 by Darkestmonty

[VegaMist]

3 hours ago, BulbulusTheGreat said:

9 objectives are 9 other objectives and irrelevant to the issue and yes i am forced into it in order to progress the weekly and its not comparable to other two becuse this is fighting with bunch of other people alongside bunch of other people, giving this objective to someone that never did pvp is again just setting up both that person and their team to lose, and in the end said person will probably be "guilty" for it and we all know how toxic some pvpers can get so this further makes me not want to do it, at the end of the day i simply don't do it and make my peace with it however pvp should be in pvp season, thats what it exists for 

Considering you can only complete 7 out of 11, your argument makes no sense. It sounds more like you just have beef with PVP.

Edited April 25 by VegaMist

[captainbladejk]

On 4/23/2024 at 5:09 PM, VegaMist said:

Are you advocating for more PVP objectives on GS track?

As I said prior, if it had been me I never would've included pvp in GS to start with since it already has its own dedicated season exclusively for it that you must pvp in order to benefit from, while there is no similar pve exclusive event. However since they would be to include pvp objectives then they need to make it so both sides have enough objectives that they don't need to touch the other. pve sticks to pve and pvp to pvp. So to a degree yes I am so long as it doesn't force pve folks to do pvp to max out their weekly progress or vice versa. 

On 4/23/2024 at 5:09 PM, VegaMist said:

I don't see PVP players complaining about having to do PVE objectives, so they are fine with what's offered. We have PVE player (with support) complaining about the presence of PVP objectives on GS track which is unwarranted considering they have 9 others to choose from.

If the pvp folks don't seem to care then okay cool, I'm glad they don't have an issue. However that's irrelevant ultimately and doesn't invalidate the opinions or complaints of those who DO have an issue or don't like it. Big question I would want to know is why dude feels it's being forced on him as I highly suspect it goes beyond just the complaints with having to do GSF that he's mentioned. However I don't want to speak for the guy on that matter. 

If it is toxicity it's one reason I hung up my pvp boots long ago was too many toxic experiences in other games, namely from my WoW days, and a few over here when you had to deal with gankers and junk in the open world originally. Just put it this way far as my own stuff, when you spend literal months and multiple hours a day in rotating shifts with people just so folks can quest in peace, it'll leave you a bit jaded too. Namely this was when Cross Realm Zones released and gave all the downsides of high pop servers but none of the upsides and just allowed for griefing. Not saying that's what's going on here by any means, just giving a few examples as to my background with toxicity. 

On 4/23/2024 at 5:09 PM, VegaMist said:

If you only like Vanilla then, sure, stick to it. But simultaneously complaining about presence of Mint or Cherry options is selfish to say the least.

I'm going to shift analogies slightly for this particular point as I feel it addresses it easier than the ice cream analogy we've been using. Let's suppose you watched a particular channel on TV for sports and they then added soap operas to said channel even though soaps already have their own dedicated channel. Are you going to like that? If you're like most people no you probably won't. Even if the channel was 90% sports and 10% soaps, there are going to be people who don't like the presence of the 10% soaps and personally I don't blame them for it. To the sports people it can appear as though the soaps people are being allowed to double dip where as they the sports people can't. Then when the sports question the setup and ask why they're being made to share the channel with the soaps people even though soaps folks have their own channel already, they're told they're selfish for even asking the question. Or worse would be daring ask for their own dedicated sports channel if sports folks wanted to do that. 

While it's not the exact same situation hopefully you get the idea and can see why some people don't like it. Personally I don't agree with that line of thinking entirely but I do understand it and why it bothers some people. If you want to think it's selfish of dude to want the pvp objectives out then you're entitled to that opinion. Since they would be to include pvp objectives and make GS a shared event, I would go back and add additional pvp objectives to balance GS out and make it the shared event, then add a pve exclusive event as well. Both sides would then have their exclusive event and a shared event. 

[VegaMist]

12 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

As I said prior, if it had been me I never would've included pvp in GS to start with since it already has its own dedicated season exclusively for it that you must pvp in order to benefit from, while there is no similar pve exclusive event.

Invalid argument since GS seasons came before PVP ones and target everyone equally. Just because you would do it differently doesn't make it right.

12 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

However that's irrelevant ultimately and doesn't invalidate the opinions or complaints of those who DO have an issue or don't like it.

Not every complaint is valid and not every opinion should be taken into account. If someone says "this chair should have 4 legs" and it already does, you can safely ignore such opinion as invalid. He can state that opinion of course, but he is not entitled to anyone agreeing with him, or taking said opinion into consideration.

12 hours ago, captainbladejk said:

Let's suppose you watched a particular channel on TV for sports and they then added soap operas to said channel even though soaps already have their own dedicated channel.

Not a valid analogy since GS was never PVE exclusive, and was always an avenues to promote a variety of content to the players. There are enough choices to ensure no one is forced into anything, and there is way more than enough time to complete the season, even if one chooses to do fewer objectives each week or even skip some weeks altogether. There is also an option to buy your way forward if you want the rewards but don't want to (or can't) play.

And speaking of PVE exclusive events, we have one every two weeks (Gree, Rakghoul, etc.), and we have one every season (Life Day, Casino, Feast of Prosperity, and the new spring one coming up). So there are already way more PVE events compared to PVP which only has PVP seasons.

Edited April 26 by VegaMist
Typo

[DragoslavRadanov]

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

Not a valid analogy since GS was never PVE exclusive, and was always an avenues to promote a variety of content to the players

This is a very important point. There's also raid options now and then in seasons, sometimes SM sometimes VM and I don't see people complaining about those in spite of also declaring they will also never do raids, but you don't see them being as passionately hostile towards the odd raid objectives vs the odd pvp objectives.

[Samcuu]

As many others have stated already there are 11 different objectives each week. You can only finish 7 of them. If two of them are pvp based simply ignore them and do the ones that involve content u enjoy. The whole idea of seasons is that there are objectives for every type of player so we can all get a bit of seasons progress accomplished doing the things we like to do in game. I happen to enjoy pvp, so thanks devs for including it 👍👍

[AFadedMemory]

On 4/25/2024 at 10:19 AM, VegaMist said:

Considering you can only complete 7 out of 11, your argument makes no sense. It sounds more like you just have beef with PVP.

I have beef with PvP, and even I know I’m not being forced to play it🤣

[Stradlin]

2 hours ago, AFadedMemory said:

I have beef with PvP, and even I know I’m not being forced to play it🤣

In general, way people use " forcing" in this context is utterly ridiculous. I've been doing 6/7 or  5/7 for couple of weeks or so. Ie I do magnificent job in resisting this brutal " forcing" of SWTOR. What will happen to me now?Honest question. Not pushing for 7/7 no matter what leads into what sort of a terrible punishment exactly? At a pretty leisurely phase like this, I'm  already well over halfway done through the  season, with over 3 months of time left.

 

 

Edited April 27 by Stradlin