What classes need to be nerfed in pvp?

[RaithHarth]

Guardians/Juggs, Sorcs/Sages, Vanguards/Powertech, when these classes are put together they are nearly unbeatable (when it's a premade), it's time for a change.

Edited January 7 by RaithHarth

[Anhkriva]

6 minutes ago, RaithHarth said:

Guardians/Juggs, Sorcs/Sages, Vanguards/Powertech, when these classes are put together they are nearly unbeatable (when it's a premade), it's time for a change.

Judging by this post, I think you have more of a problem with premades than with class balance.

[RaithHarth]

1 minute ago, Anhkriva said:

Judging by this post, I think you have more of a problem with premades than with class balance.

I think that's 95% of every pvp player here

[RACATW]

Any class with a combination of near permanent stun immunity, knockback, almost infinite roots, massive damage, roll immunity to all damage and stuns, immunity to leaps, a combination of yellow and white damage should be nerfed.

[SentinalMasterWW]

5 hours ago, RaithHarth said:

Guardians/Juggs, Sorcs/Sages, Vanguards/Powertech, when these classes are put together they are nearly unbeatable (when it's a premade), it's time for a change.

Jugs yes 

Sorcs Agree, 

VG's not really, Their opener is broken sure, but they are more balanced out in the sense they are glass cannons. They have Medpac, And Adrenaline rush, thats about it. I have more problems dealing with Jugs than PTs. 

I'd also like to add that Ionic Discharge is still the meta noob tactical that needs to be nerfed, wayyy to easy to get 150-160K Crits, Either remove the 50% DMG bonus, or remove the tactical altogether. 

Edited January 7 by SentinalMasterWW

[RACATW]

8 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Jugs yes 

Sorcs Agree, 

VG's not really, Their opener is broken sure, but they are more balanced out in the sense they are glass cannons. They have Medpac, And Adrenaline rush, thats about it. I have more problems dealing with Jugs than PTs. 

I'd also like to add that Ionic Discharge is still the meta noob tactical that needs to be nerfed, wayyy to easy to get 150-160K Crits, Either remove the 50% DMG bonus, or remove the tactical altogether. 

*phase walks away as sniper from nerfs*

[TrixxieTriss]

21 hours ago, RaithHarth said:

Guardians/Juggs, Sorcs/Sages, Vanguards/Powertech, when these classes are put together they are nearly unbeatable (when it's a premade), it's time for a change.

First, how can you call for a whole class to be nerfed? If you were serious, you’d say the spec & list some of the abilities or proficiencies that are OP. 

This is why I hate generic nerf threads like this and why the Devs should ignore them. Because people complaining don’t even know what they are complaining about. Then it becomes a class bash thread & the devs end up nerfing the other specs as well as the ones that may or may not be OP. 

Also, every class spec has a counter. If a certain class is OP against the counter class, then explain where & why it is. Then maybe the counter class spec just needs a buff instead of nerfing. 

Please come back with a proper detailed response if you want to discuss nerfing anything. Otherwise this thread is pointless. 

Edited January 7 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

15 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Jugs yes 

Sorcs Agree, 

VG's not really, Their opener is broken sure, but they are more balanced out in the sense they are glass cannons. They have Medpac, And Adrenaline rush, thats about it. I have more problems dealing with Jugs than PTs. 

I'd also like to add that Ionic Discharge is still the meta noob tactical that needs to be nerfed, wayyy to easy to get 150-160K Crits, Either remove the 50% DMG bonus, or remove the tactical altogether. 

And which Jugg specs and builds are you talking about? Rage, Vengeance, Tank? Sorry but do you know what is making them OP for you? Because I can tell you, Rage Juggs aren’t OP against any ranged class or Maras or PT’s

I think part of the issue is more people are playing Juggs, so you are seeing class stacking. Which as you know is a different issue. Juggs are fairly easy to play for noobs (which is why you see more of them), but much harder to master than people actually think. Especially since the pruning, they have to now choose between mobility & DCD’s.

Sorcs as a whole are fine, it’s Madness Sorc that is causing issues for most in PvP because it’s easy mode spec & people class stack on it too. Add the pruning of DCD or dot mitigation on many classes & those dots can really hurt if you don’t have a healer to cleanse them. Add to the fact that most people just let them free cast all match 🤦‍♀️.

PT’s are mostly ok too, but they are broken in certain situations against certain classes & could use some work to fix the builds. Actually most of the classes need fixing at some lvl. But I believe PT’s rotation is messed up more than many others.

It’s my belief that most of the class/spec issues people come across are stacking issues. But those few that aren’t, are usually attributed to one broken ability or it’s attributed to tactical’s.

Honestly, tactical’s have made it so much harder for the devs to actually balance stuff properly. It was much easier for them when all they had to worry about was gear bonuses. They say they needed to prune ability’s to make it easier to balance, but if that was really the case, they should have just removed tactical’s instead. Because nearly every meta since they added tactical’s, there has been at least one or two tactical’s that have been either broken or too OP or being used in a manner the devs didn’t intend. 

I’d much prefer for them to undo all the class pruning & remove tactical’s. Then balance around set bonuses. Then if an ability or proficiency is broken or OP, it’s much easier to address, fix or balance. 

[TrixxieTriss]

21 hours ago, RaithHarth said:

I think that's 95% of every pvp player here

Then why post about nerfs if it’s premades causing you the issues. 

[Shenyu]

I think in a balanced match, with tanks and healers, AP PT, Rage Jugg and Carnage Marauder are probably the strongest specs in the game.

Madness has high damage potential that is easily shut down by any modicum of focus requiring them to kite. Some say they're OP because of their healing and defensives, and I'm fine with that opinion. But if you stripped it of its healing, and mobility, and DR; what then? A light armored glass cannon that does less than comparable damage to the games' current strongest specs? /shrug. Interrupts, hard CC and damage pressure completely disable Madness' ability to inflict relevant amounts of damage (in 4v4 THDD), whereas something like carnage has high uptime on full CC immunity, incredible DPS, and is quite literally an unstoppable machine whos' only challenge posed before them is not hitting into Guard.

If we start talking about 1v1's, or 8v8's that have no healers and no tanks and are just a completely unbalanced stompfest, then that isn't a reasonable testing ground for where balance should stand to begin with. There's also the fundamental problem things like - skill variance, gear variance, knowledge variance. Most people I see in queue don't even have blue augments for their gear. Most people I see in queue massively overextend and play out of position, subjecting themself to death on repeat and have never even heard of the phrases "peel" or "line of sight".

I feel like there is issues at a fundamental design level, that would need to be adressed first, before class balance could be put under a microscope. Damage being dialed back, healing being increased, and a slower overall TTK would help ease the awful feeling of games being so stompy. I also think Bolster should just be removed, and the PVP-only gear should be introduced back into the game, so that all the players enter and progress on an equal playing field. I suppose that isn't the point of this topic though...

Anyway, take away all Madness heals and DR, give me a 10m dotspread and Blink from WoW and you've got a deal, thanks.

P.S - Happy to be debated on any of my thoughts and opinions, its just my perspective from playing since Shae Vizla opened and I started playing again.

[gasxero]

Classes on their own are not a problem...

 

Its when you have 4-6 PT's or Juggs or Sorcs or Ops or Sins etc on an enemy team when you know you're in trouble

in other words, class stacking is the problem.

Edited January 11 by gasxero
I r two stoopud to finish sentanse

[DougTheNoob]

Juggs dont need to be nerfed at all. Skanks on the other hand shouldnt exist imho. Madness sorcs and AP PT I kinda agree. But the nerf cant be too harsh. They are just a little over tuned.

[TheOverMind-]

On 1/6/2024 at 10:23 PM, RACATW said:

Any class with a combination of near permanent stun immunity, knockback, almost infinite roots, massive damage, roll immunity to all damage and stuns, immunity to leaps, a combination of yellow and white damage should be nerfed.

No class has to be nerfed. You just have a problem of skills, experience, patience and understanding. That's all.

[Dyne-]

I'm inclined to agree with Trixxie and Doug. In the game's current state I couldn't name one class in particular that is completely broken, but there are a few specs that need to be adjusted (Madness, Engineering, AP PT, Skank Tank Juggs). Rolling back ability pruning would make this easier as some classes just don't work well in their current state.

For the devs: When you go back to the drawing board please remember, whomever decided Snipers needed accuracy debuffs, an endless series of roots, cc immunity, leap immunity, phase walk, and the ability to damn near one shot people needs to be grounded. That person doesn't get to make design decisions anymore 😂. Honorable mention to whomever thought ability pruning was a great idea. Probably the same person lol.

Edited January 13 by Dyne-

[RACATW]

11 hours ago, TheOverMind- said:

No class has to be nerfed. You just have a problem of skills, experience, patience and understanding. That's all.

That so? Show us some videos of you fighting some gold flaired snipers on a melee class. I'll judge you

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, RACATW said:

That so? Show us some videos of you fighting some gold flaired snipers on a melee class. I'll judge you

You’re assuming he’s gold standard too? 
Because if he isn’t, then it wouldn’t matter what class he’s against if they are gold standard players. A gold standard player on the weakest class is still going to rip apart less skilled players regardless of class. 

[RACATW]

18 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

You’re assuming he’s gold standard too? 
Because if he isn’t, then it wouldn’t matter what class he’s against if they are gold standard players. A gold standard player on the weakest class is still going to rip apart less skilled players regardless of class. 

From the way he worded it, he's some kind of elite forum pvper. Probably top 3 even and many golds... so let's see a video. Otherwise I think it's just words and nothing to back it up.

[supertimtaf]

22 hours ago, RACATW said:

From the way he worded it, he's some kind of elite forum pvper. Probably top 3 even and many golds... so let's see a video. Otherwise I think it's just words and nothing to back it up.

plot twist : He is a sniper that doesn't wanna be nerfed 

[SentinalMasterWW]

Going back to this topic. 

I think Sorcs should get nerfed in general, Sorc in general is probably one of the best ranged specs next to Engi sniper. 

The cooldown on force speed for sorcs should be increased, having basically a 10 sec cooldown on movement immunity and cleanses is way too broken. 

I think Gathering storm  implant should also be nerfed more so in either reducing the bonus DMG done while under force speed, or removing it entirely, again it comes down to 20% DMG bonus every 10 secs. If it were to be nerfed, Max should be 5-10% bonus DMG.

I'd also remove the Torturous tactics passive and replace it will Pull DR Reduction or cleanse, something that doesn't break the meta even more.

Regarding madness sorc; 

Nerf the 5% DR reduction down to 2%. 

Reduce the DMG done by force leach. 

Nerf passive healing done by Dot's. 

Regarding jug, 
 

Obviously nerf Skank Tank DPS, One of my guildes hit an 100K crit with jug skank tank, Tanks should not be hitting this hard. Combine great DPS with tank defensives and Jug tanks are a pain to deal with. 

Rage Jug should also be nerfed, its basically launch 7.0 fury marauder with its DPS it can output but with the added bonus of jug defensives. 

On the last note of snipers, 

I think Ionic should just be removed from the game entirely, Engi already itself does a lot of DMG and having a nuke tactical shouldn't be in the game. 

 

[Beyrahl]

39 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

I think Sorcs should get nerfed in general, Sorc in general is probably one of the best ranged specs next to Engi sniper. 

The cooldown on force speed for sorcs should be increased, having basically a 10 sec cooldown on movement immunity and cleanses is way too broken. 

Sorcerer's damage isn't that crazy, things like reduced CD on Force speed are obnoxious and should get changed but I wouldn't say it's going to change the class much when or if they do. 
 

40 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

I think Gathering storm  implant should also be nerfed more so in either reducing the bonus DMG done while under force speed, or removing it entirely, again it comes down to 20% DMG bonus every 10 secs. If it were to be nerfed, Max should be 5-10% bonus DMG.

The actual damage gain from this isn't that big (try and test it yourself, polarity is the big one), I would rather them pull away from using an escape ability for damage, however. 
 

42 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Pull DR Reduction or cleanse

Cleanse is already there, so dunno about that one, but Pull DR should be exclusive to healers if it does come back. If it's a choice for DPS it should be an option that has a meaningful impact. 
 

43 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Nerf the 5% DR reduction down to 2%.

3% Damage reduction isn't much but when it's stacking 3x that's 9% DR, that's what Marauder has on something IIRC. It's not a good idea to just nuke the durability of classes that are reliant on archaic ways of doing damage by turreting and channeling. As we go further and further from the original image, these designs and functions will just become more and more useless and often get redesigned, note ravage. If anything the % health healing is more of an issue when it comes to survival. DR + Healing is what makes things feel unkillable, a good mix is what makes it strong. Looking at lethality as a prime example it has a healthy mix of healing and DR. 
Another way for the DR talent they have is simply to make it easier to fall off. Making it go off force leach for full stacks/convert full stacks to 1 stack is just an example. But as is, I don't feel it's that bad because when it comes to madness doing proper damage it is very reliant on channeling. It's when DoT explosion & Death brand come into play that it becomes incredibly easy, too easy imo. But they do give up team fight ability to run Death Brand and or dot explosion so in a way they're not great at everything, they sort of have to pick one, and being a way more durable duelist is one of them and I think most just need to accept it, when or if they nerf it and it's not targetted at % health healing it's likely going to be either not enough or dead in the water. 
 

52 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

One of my guildes hit an 100K crit with jug skank tank,

Pooled hatred just shouldn't exist for Juggernaut tank, but yes the 10% nerf on crushing blow during taunt was barely a nerf. 

53 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Rage Jug should also be nerfed, its basically launch 7.0 fury marauder with its DPS it can output but with the added bonus of jug defensives. 

Depends on the variant, if it comes to 0CD it's plenty easy to outplay in PvP, though annoying. Dominate on the other hand is quite obnoxious but the durability isn't that good, if the DR gained from leap was 6-8 seconds, maybe, but it's not. The main reason this class can pop off so much is due to the ability to constantly get its burst back up and running, each combat drop resets vital abilities, that used to be vengeance only iirc. Then made into a talent. Now it's baked into all 3 specs. A simple change like that would nerf its ability to go go go and make it less obnoxious to deal with in stompy matches. Fury was mostly just good because of its ability to constantly disengage with a cleanse tied to it, its damage was good but only comparable as it couldn't hit as hard, and it also didn't have the same ability to pop off as hard either since it didn't get any sort of meaningful reset. 


Not trying to latch onto your comment or anything personally to you, but rather I think even if they took anyone's advice it should be well thought out and not overboard. It's much easier to make smaller adjustments as you go or bring up other classes to the same point (which should be done honestly, a lot of things are not too great and some things are indeed outliers) or in general just add more options for tacticals, talents, set bonuses and generally a redesign of talent loadout, really anything that'd make a meta shift outside of gear increase. New augs even would spice things up a lot at the moment. Preferably not super expensive ones either, the 300 IL money gate is extremely lame and has been for years now. 

[SentinalMasterWW]

1 hour ago, Beyrahl said:

Cleanse is already there, so dunno about that one, but Pull DR should be exclusive to healers if it does come back. If it's a choice for DPS it should be an option that has a meaningful impact. 

Mainly I went to pull because it was the first thing that came to mind, Mainly though it should just be replaced with something that doesn't break the current meta even more. 

1 hour ago, Beyrahl said:

3% Damage reduction isn't much but when it's stacking 3x that's 9% DR, that's what Marauder has on something IIRC. It's not a good idea to just nuke the durability of classes that are reliant on archaic ways of doing damage by turreting and channeling. As we go further and further from the original image, these designs and functions will just become more and more useless and often get redesigned, note ravage. If anything the % health healing is more of an issue when it comes to survival. DR + Healing is what makes things feel unkillable, a good mix is what makes it strong. Looking at lethality as a prime example it has a healthy mix of healing and DR. 

Madness has a really easy way of getting its DR Reduction via its DOT's, 15% still is way too much for a spec that is wearing literal cloth robes. The closest to this would be Mercs DR Reduction passive, but even than it only goes up to 6%, add in the fact that much of Merc's playstyle right now is being a static turret.

1 hour ago, Beyrahl said:

Another way for the DR talent they have is simply to make it easier to fall off. Making it go off force leach for full stacks/convert full stacks to 1 stack is just an example. But as is, I don't feel it's that bad because when it comes to madness doing proper damage it is very reliant on channeling. It's when DoT explosion & Death brand come into play that it becomes incredibly easy, too easy imo. But they do give up team fight ability to run Death Brand and or dot explosion so in a way they're not great at everything, they sort of have to pick one, and being a way more durable duelist is one of them and I think most just need to accept it, when or if they nerf it and it's not targetted at % health healing it's likely going to be either not enough or dead in the water. 

While it is true that much of Madness relies on channeling Force lightning for DMG, With the amount of control Madness has built into it in general its really not that hard to lock down a target. Honestly Deathbrand should just be removed from the game entirely, replace it with additional DMG on Death field. 

The thing with madness is that its not a hard spec at all to master or to play, its dummy easy and I can run literal Circles around players. Last time I played it, Went 46-1 and while that can be done on any class really. Madness is so dummy ez to play that it really wasn't that hard at all.

There is this old post by Eric Musco explaining how class balance works, and I honestly feel that it is outdated. Class balancing is all over the place, but this is mostly a byproduct of the horrible prunning done by 7.0. Really wish the Dev's would post how Balancing currently works now, and would be really nice if they explained how balancing works for PVP, cause right now it seems like they throw a dart on a dartboard and that is the spec that gets buffed or nerfed. 

1 hour ago, Beyrahl said:

. New augs even would spice things up a lot at the moment.

Augments while it would be nice to get some new ones would ONLY be good if we could get them from a vendor, 300 Gold Augs are one of the main sources of inflation that came with 6.0. I get it crafters need some more stuff, but I'd rather not pay out 600 Million just for a 308 or 316 Augment. 

 

 

 

Edited January 25 by SentinalMasterWW

[meddani]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:22 PM, SentinalMasterWW said:

...

 

your hate b"ner for sorcs is a obsession at this point, lol.

you know why they're not getting nerfed any further? because they're fine now.

and your gathering storm nerf suggestion would hurt lightning as well...pretty sure we had that discussion already.

Edited January 28 by meddani

[SentinalMasterWW]

1 hour ago, meddani said:

your hate b"ner for sorcs is a obsession at this point, lol.

you know why they're not getting nerfed any further? because they're fine now.

and your gathering storm nerf suggestion would hurt lightning as well...pretty sure we had that discussion already.

Maybe because the most common class that is brought up in general for pvp that is broken Is sorcs? 

Seriously it is a favorite of class stacking right next to juggernaut.

Sorcs need a nerf to something, be it longer force speed cool down, reducing their DR reduction stacking, etc. 

 

I mean I'd rather fight madness sorcs than skank tank juggernaut.

 

And if what cease said is true, than the removal of DMG caused by force speed would be negligible at best.

Lightning currently is one the better direct DPS ranged specs, arsenal and Marksman are not currently in a good place right now, marksman especially.

 

 

[TrixxieTriss]

13 minutes ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Maybe because the most common class that is brought up in general for pvp that is broken Is sorcs? 

Seriously it is a favorite of class stacking right next to juggernaut.

Sorcs need a nerf to something, be it longer force speed cool down, reducing their DR reduction stacking, etc. 

 

I mean I'd rather fight madness sorcs than skank tank juggernaut.

 

And if what cease said is true, than the removal of DMG caused by force speed would be negligible at best.

Lightning currently is one the better direct DPS ranged specs, arsenal and Marksman are not currently in a good place right now, marksman especially.

 

 

The problem isn’t the class balance, it’s the class stacking. 

[Monterone]

On 1/28/2024 at 4:36 PM, SentinalMasterWW said:

Seriously it is a favorite of class stacking right next to juggernaut.

Sorcs need a nerf to something, be it longer force speed cool down, reducing their DR reduction stacking, etc. 

I mean I'd rather fight madness sorcs than skank tank juggernaut.

I think stacking snipers is worse than stacking sorcs, but you're right about juggs being the worst. Endless lives. And when there are a few of them, it's almost as if they had a group healer, but they don't, it's just them.

Sorcs seem fine at the moment, and I don't get why madness is being singled out when they perform exactly the same as lightning. They're finally on par with each other.

As far as marksman goes, the major reason why they are bottom of the barrel when it comes to snipers is because they have no way to slow people down. Engi has the AoE slow that can be cast and moved at any time, and virulence has a baked in slow. Marksman only has leg shot on a long cooldown, and without the stun or the flash bang, it's brutal. Mobility is king in pvp and marksman has very little in tools to affect it, single target or AoE.

Edited January 30 by Monterone