Is it Time for a Big New Story Drop?

[OlBuzzard]

43 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

I am so confounded by what these guys actually played in 2011.

Hmmm ... I think I can offer a little help without coming across as being unkind (at least that's what I will attempt to do).

A LOT of players enjoy different aspects of the MMO.
** PvE
** PvP 

Both of these can be found in varying levels of difficulties in SOME games.  WoW here lately seems to back on the right track with that part.  

PvE for example (which encompasses the RPG aspect) ALSO includes raids / daily stuff / OPs / Heroics ... etc ... etc.  Someone who enjoys the more advanced level of PvE might NOT care for RPG.  IMO this does not make either one better than the other.  It is personal choice.  Said choices should not be viewed of such demanding importance to the point where it pushes out the rest of the game.

RPG is without question a large part of SWTOR ... (and at one time so were other aspects such as PvP).  I know things are changing within the game.  I think I get that part.  BUT trying to argue that the foundational portions of SWTOR should be done away with in order to save a few bucks (OK maybe a lot of $$$) to me presupposes that a significant part of the game is no longer important.  

Somehow ... eliminating the RPG or even just the story behind this game would be a major travesty.  The end result would no longer be SWTOR ... but rather something far less.

I hope this makes sense.

[Stradlin]

31 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

 

Somehow ... eliminating the RPG or even just the story behind this game would be a major travesty.  The end result would no longer be SWTOR ... but rather something far less.

I hope this makes sense.

Almost everybody who suggests ditching voice actors argues it'd prolly lead  to more story delivered much faster. So it'd be rejunevating the story, rather than eliminating it. 

 

....But ofc, that will prolly never happen, people need to be able to hear their character talk in SWTOR. Large portion of people rather see this game die than give that up. So notion of getting more story at cost of silent Playerchar isn't even a consideration. It is a hostage situation of sorts. "Force Jennifer Hale to speak things sometimes or I quit!" BS/BW goes wellp.. and presto, luxurious joyous 5 minutes worth of PC dialogue every 18 months gets to happen.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Stradlin

[Jazulfi]

Reading this thread with such interest, and don't really have much to add except that I completely understand why people are so protective of their PCVA but understand the phenomenal size of that feature is a problem. I would miss it terribly. But I wonder, if a truly substantial expansion were on the table, with NPCs fully voiced and talking to us (inc romances - perhaps we'd have to deal with non romance NPCs being less chatty) A RETURN TO CLASS STORY THREADS - perhaps as a small offshoot from the main narrative -  *maybe* it would take the sting out for a while?

I'm also certain simple things like the UI presentation could help - so have our characters responding silently but using the normal convo 'wheel' rather than the jarring split screen they tried (I know they did this in the hope nostalgia for KOTOR would kick in. IMHO, it didn't)

And perhaps our PCs say the very very occasional thing? I just can't believe it's not beyond the wit of Man to come up with a less painful austere solution to the problem.

What about paid-for fully-voiced PC/Companion DLC, priced so it 'washes its face'? And perhaps, over time, if/when the game starts to recover we could gradually get our voices back? I don't know how feasible these things are, I'm just spit-balling here (such an unsavoury expression! 😁)

It's very very difficult to take things away from players once they are in place and loved by them, and I don't have criticisms for either side of this debate because I completely understand both (I like it that people aren't being cross with each other too.)

Anyway, tricky, emotional and interesting conversation.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Jazulfi

[SoyElSenado]

41 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

Suppose WoW, too is no MMO then. oO  Getting to hear Jennifer Hale talk is what sets RPGs apart from MMOs, I guess.

Lol funny enough Jennifer Hale's WoW character is heavily featured in the newest WoW raid that came out this week. 

[JakRoanin]

No, we're not just talking about hearing our pc's talk. We're talking about what makes SWTOR different from WoW, STO, and other MMO's we're talking about what SWTOR is!

@OlBuzzard PVE is Story, you can't do OPS without doing the story content you need to LvL to 50.

[Stradlin]

Just now, SoyElSenado said:

Lol funny enough Jennifer Hale's WoW character is heavily featured in the newest WoW raid that came out this week. 

Heheh, I really need to come up with a new example VA person name to pull. 😛

She's only one everybody recognizes and only one I remember from top of my head, heh

 

[Stradlin]

 

15 minutes ago, Jazulfi said:

Reading this thread with such interest, and don't really have much to add except that I completely understand why people are so protective of their PCVA but understand the phenomenal size of that feature is a problem. I would miss it terribly. But I wonder, if a truly substantial expansion were on the table, with NPCs fully voiced and talking to us (inc romances - perhaps we'd have to deal with non romance NPCs not being so chatty) A RETURN TO CLASS STORY THREADS - perhaps as a small offshoot from the main narrative -  *maybe* it would take the sting out for a while?
 

 

Willing to bet that if BS were to ever do some survey about this, responses would utterly  terrify anyone  within BS pushing for a silent PC. If BS quietly devved one narrative-heavy moderately large expansion with silent  PC and a well written story, I wonder if they'd not win people over literally overnight.

Ofc, there has been lots of story content without VA present already. Seasonal companions and such for example. None of the writing there has been all that captivating. Tons of very obvious missed opportunities. Silent PC is all about offering actual, diverse options. It  technically  makes it attainable to have plenty of places where dialogue could go. Dialogues almost never really goes to any of these places. Does force user have lots of interesting jedi/sith exclusive dialogue with Serenity about nature of the force? Nah. Does trooper and Serenity connect due to the shared military past. Naah. If they do silent PC, it should not be this lazy.

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Stradlin

[DWho]

10 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

Heheh, I really need to come up with a new example VA person name to pull.

Maybe that's the problem, getting stuck on the name of a voice actor rather than the voice acting itself. Do we really need the best voice actors to revitalize the game or can we get by with "cheaper" voice acting alternatives. The game wouldn't be the same without some form of voice acting but it doesn't need to be top name talent when the game is struggling to survive.

[Jazulfi]

3 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

 

 

If BS quietly devved one narrative-heavy moderately large expansion with silent  PC and a well written story, I wonder if they'd not win people over literally overnight.

 

This bit is key I think. If they want to win people over, the alternative offering has to be exceptional. A paltry bit of story in the vein of recent patches isn't going to cut it.

Also, I think paid expansions, with much better perks for the subscription, are essential. Game needs to make money.

[Stradlin]

2 minutes ago, DWho said:

Maybe that's the problem, getting stuck on the name of a voice actor rather than the voice acting itself. Do we really need the best voice actors to revitalize the game or can we get by with "cheaper" voice acting alternatives. The game wouldn't be the same without some form of voice acting but it doesn't need to be top name talent when the game is struggling to survive.

It takes a gifted actor to be any good at it. SWTOR was always celebrated for the incredibly high quality of its VA. Rotating all of the lot out and replacing with literal cheap copies would likely infuriate the community.

Maybe AI is technically like..3 years away from being able to save SWTOR in this regard..which is completely insane tbh.. Just that actors, voice actors are in pretty powerful union, replacing VA with AI is prolly a swamp of unknowable legal issues. Once EA begins doing this, entire Hollywood starts to hate them for same reason VHS repairshop hates online streaming services. 

[Jazulfi]

Just now, Stradlin said:

Maybe AI is technically like..3 years away from being able to save SWTOR in this regard..which is completely insane tbh.. Just that actors, voice actors are in pretty powerful union, replacing VA with AI is prolly a swamp of unknowable legal issues. Once EA begins doing this, entire Hollywood starts to hate them for same reason VHS repairshop hates online streaming services. 

I thought about mentioning this but was too frightened, and frankly, I'm not keen on what it would mean for the voice actors themselves. It's not their fault they are the best in the business. Well, it sort of is but you know what I mean.

[DWho]

4 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

It takes a gifted actor to be any good at it. SWTOR was always celebrated for the incredibly high quality of its VA. Rotating all of the lot out and replacing with literal cheap copies would likely infuriate the community.

Movies change actors all the time. How many people have "voiced" Batman or Superman. Are there people that will never watch another Batman film because their favorite actor isn't in the role. There probably are some but I'm confident you are massively overestimating any "blowback" from changing the current "A-list" VA for the second tier (which is likely almost as good but costs substantially less because they don't have an established name yet)

Again, there is a difference between launching a "WOW-killer" and propping up a game struggling to survive. When you launch the game, you want the best of the best and tout it. When you are dying you are more willing to be economical

Edited November 17, 2023 by DWho

[OlBuzzard]

21 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

No, we're not just talking about hearing our pc's talk. We're talking about what makes SWTOR different from WoW, STO, and other MMO's we're talking about what SWTOR is!

@OlBuzzard PVE is Story, you can't do OPS without doing the story content you need to LvL to 50.

I get that.. and yes you are right! 

Right now you have someone absolutely heii bent on removing any cost that gets in their way!  ANY COST!  VA is at the top of stuff to remove and build what THEY want.  To them nothing else matters.

I could post in this thread literally until Hell itself freezes over and nothing would change that.  IMO we're wasting our time.  This is how they have answered OP.

No more VA story driven and only those parts of the game without ANY story (since it incorporates so much VA and  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.   Nothing else will do!  All we have to do is surrender to the idea that VA is bad ... and only content that has ZERO  VA should be developed.  YES that includes ANY VA needed in companions.  Sound familiar.  A similarly related rant was used to discredit ANY more companions.  WHY???  Because some people are so narrow minded that they only see themselves and what is important to them.

[Jazulfi]

Just now, DWho said:

Movies change actors all the time. How many people have "voiced" Batman or Superman. Are there people that will never watch another Batman film because their favorite actor isn't in the role. There probably are some but I'm confident you are massively overestimating any "blowback" from changing the current "A-list" VA for the second tier (which is likely almost as good but costs substantially less because they don't have an established name yet)

Those characters aren't 'me' as they are in games. Players have an extremely personal connection to their toons. I would personally hate it, and would be very upset, if my Agent's distinctive voice changed. I also trust the quality of her acting. I would find it very hard to accept a new person.

Added to which, it doesn't solve the huge-array-of-voice-actors problem for a fully-voiced PC, it just shifts it slightly.

[OlBuzzard]

9 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

It takes a gifted actor to be any good at it. SWTOR was always celebrated for the incredibly high quality of its VA. Rotating all of the lot out and replacing with literal cheap copies would likely infuriate the community.

Maybe AI is technically like..3 years away from being able to save SWTOR in this regard..which is completely insane tbh.. Just that actors, voice actors are in pretty powerful union, replacing VA with AI is prolly a swamp of unknowable legal issues. Once EA begins doing this, entire Hollywood starts to hate them for same reason VHS repairshop hates online streaming services. 

NO!!!!!!!!

The rest of us can be just as stubborn insisting that the story continue as you demand to wipe out anything that you dislike!

[Toraak]

27 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

No, we're not just talking about hearing our pc's talk. We're talking about what makes SWTOR different from WoW, STO, and other MMO's we're talking about what SWTOR is!

@OlBuzzard PVE is Story, you can't do OPS without doing the story content you need to LvL to 50.

This is wrong. I have leveled characters 1-80 without even doing the 1st story quest given to you. I have leveled fully from 1-80 with nothing more then flying GSF.

 

Once I hit 80 I do PvE. Flashpoints, Operations, Dailies, heroics. These are all forms of PvE. Story is only one part of PvE, not all of it.

[DWho]

Just now, Toraak said:

Once I hit 80 I do PvE. Flashpoints, Operations, Dailies, heroics. These are all forms of PvE. Story is only one part of PvE, not all of it.

It's the part that ties all of the pieces together, otherwise it's just a collection of mini-games.

[Jazulfi]

1 minute ago, OlBuzzard said:

NO!!!!!!!!

The rest of us can be just as stubborn insisting that the story continue as you demand to wipe out anything that you dislike!

C'mon @OlBuzzard - that's a little dramatic and unfair, I think? It's not about 'dislike' or 'wiping out' its about discussing ideas to solve a (possibly) difficult problem for the game. It's not as though most people wouldn't LOVE a fully voiced PC to remain, it just sounds expensive for a game trying to get back on it's feet.

I say 'possibly' because what the hell do we know? Perhaps a mysterious benefactor has provided a money tap exclusively for player character voice actor salaries. Gods know I would love this but I think it's unlikely.

[JakRoanin]

If you only care about OPS or PvP why play this game? What is it about SWTOR itself that is special! Answer that somebody please, without the Story and VA why are they special?

[Toraak]

6 minutes ago, DWho said:

It's the part that ties all of the pieces together, otherwise it's just a collection of mini-games.

Depends on how you look at it. When I raid I don't care about the Story, when I do FP's I'm there for the MMO aspect, the story in them is a one shot thing. Story in Heroics/Dailies is non existent. Pick up the quests and do them for the rewards.

 

The Story itself for me is for the leveling process. The 1-50 class stories. By the time I'm done with Act 1 I'm already level 80 and I never continue at that point. So it really depends on how you look at it.

[Toraak]

1 minute ago, JakRoanin said:

If you only care about OPS or PvP why play this game? What is it about SWTOR itself that is special! Answer that somebody please, without the Story and VA why are they special?

Simple. It's Star Wars, not to mention the guildies and friends you make while your doing Operations, PvP, or Flashpoints, or GSF.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Toraak

[JakRoanin]

20 minutes ago, Toraak said:

Simple. It's Star Wars, not to mention the guildies and friends you make while your doing Operations, PvP, or Flashpoints, or GSF.

Yes it's Star Wars! That's the point! The whole point of this game is to become a SW's character. STO is special because of the Ships and the TREK ACTORS voicing their characters, but you are not a character, you're a controller. That's the only MMO I've played besides SWTOR. 

Take the VA and the Story away and become just another controller? NO THANK YOU! You MMO players want to rip shred everything that makes this game special. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. That'll make the game last forever. 

[SoyElSenado]

 

1 hour ago, DWho said:

Maybe that's the problem, getting stuck on the name of a voice actor rather than the voice acting itself. Do we really need the best voice actors to revitalize the game or can we get by with "cheaper" voice acting alternatives. The game wouldn't be the same without some form of voice acting but it doesn't need to be top name talent when the game is struggling to survive.

I think you’re overstating how much savings would result from replacing the voice actors with cheaper talent. Paying 48 voice actors to record the same lines is always going to be a massive expense. For there to be significant enough savings to make a ton more story content they’d probably have to cut them all entirely or start incorporating AI big time. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by SoyElSenado

[JakRoanin]

Well guess what, AI is a red-zone right now, and canceling the VA turns the game into something it was never meant to be! I don't understand how people are insisting the game become something it never was.

[TrixxieTriss]

53 minutes ago, DWho said:

Movies change actors all the time. How many people have "voiced" Batman or Superman. Are there people that will never watch another Batman film because their favorite actor isn't in the role. There probably are some but I'm confident you are massively overestimating any "blowback" from changing the current "A-list" VA for the second tier (which is likely almost as good but costs substantially less because they don't have an established name yet)

Again, there is a difference between launching a "WOW-killer" and propping up a game struggling to survive. When you launch the game, you want the best of the best and tout it. When you are dying you are more willing to be economical

I know this is a bit off track, but you brought it up 🤷🏻‍♀️

Personally, I disliked Ben Aflick as Batman & I still watched it because he still fits the role. But I refuse to watch a another version of Batman that has Robert Patterson playing Batman again. The casting behind that idea was absolutely ridiculous. Patterson is definitely no Batman, he’s more of a Robin, if anything. 

Back on track, if they had to recast VA for swtor because the actor retired, died or didn’t want to do it anymore, I could respect that. But recasting to only save money is the lowest of the low. It’s like sacking more senior loyal employees with a wealth of experience to hire juniors with low experience because they’re cheaper.