Coming 7.4 GTN changes on the PTS

[TrixxieTriss]

40 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

And who do you think will be paying those taxes?  Before you answer that ... let me kind of help you with MY answer:

If I'm selling something (particularly several stacks of crafted items or mats) ... I will know the market well enough to make sure I'm getting my cut.  Period!  Someone else will pick up the tab!  That may sound harsh ... but that's life!

Otherwise ... this old man stands pat with what he has.  I'll take my time and cherry pick away until I have what I'm after.  And I'll do it without too many people noticing it until I'm done!

I assume it will be the wealthy buyer paying those taxes. 

[Darkestmonty]

4 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

And now you’ve gone from a 1 billion item to a 3 billion item so that you can make the gap bigger. Talk about gas lighting 🤦‍♀️

Now I remember why I had your account on block. Guess I’ll go back to that seeing as you can’t have an honest discussion. 

I have 3 billion options for prices to pick and 5 different posting lengths. Are you saying my math is off or are you upset I didn't list all 15 billion calculations?

A non-refundable posting fee as little as 10,000 credits for a 3 billion credit listing will not be an issue. That 10,000 credit fee is insignificant compared to the 240 million credits they currently lose from GTN taxes. A seller would have to post that 3 billion credit item 24,000 times and fail to sell it all 24,000 times before they start to lose more money than selling at the current 8% GTN tax.

You want people to worry about non-refundable posting fees when it will take over 33 years of constantly posting a 3 billion credit sale while never selling before they catch up to the current GTN tax and lose 240 million credits?

But to satisfy your 1 billion credit complaint since dividing by 3 is hard math...

a 12 hour sale posted at 1 billion credits costs a 10,000 credit non-refundable posting fee.

If that item was sold now, the seller would lose 80,000,000 credits due to the 8% GTN tax. In 7.4 it would take around 11 years of constantly posting an item at 1 billion credits and that item never selling before the seller started to lose more money than the current GTN system.

To further make sure I am not "Gas Lighting" people, this is the amount of time it would take to constantly post and fail to sell a 1 billion credit item before a seller started losing more credits than the current 8% GTN tax.

12 hours posting = 10.96 years

24 hour postings = 8.78 years

48 hour postings = 8.78 years

72 hour postings = 6.58 years

168 hour postings = 6.14 years

I'm not worried about the non-refundable fees for posting items. If anyone has to post an item for 6 to 11 or even 33 years before it sells, the posting fees are the last of their issues.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[OlBuzzard]

34 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I assume it will be the wealthy buyer paying those taxes. 

Assuming would be your next mistake.  I'm just playing by your rules.  

[eabevella]

We need to get an economy degree to sell stuffs in a mmo game now? geese

[OlBuzzard]

5 hours ago, eabevella said:

We need to get an economy degree to sell stuffs in a mmo game now? geese

One of the single most honest answers yet!

IMO ...  "The more complicated the plumbing the easier it is to stop it up!"

The system needs to be easy to understand and use.  Cleaning up pages and pages of entries from the same person and consolidating them into a simpler, easy to read and understand system is always beneficial.  Other matters that overly complicate the system and how to utilize it will only prove to be yet another source of difficulties for SWTOR.

Edited October 31, 2023 by OlBuzzard
clarification

[Darkestmonty]

9 hours ago, eabevella said:

We need to get an economy degree to sell stuffs in a mmo game now? geese

It will be easier once you start using the 7.4 GTN but yes, the new GTN still needs work.

UI needs to be improved, shorcuts that work in the current UI need to be implemented in the 7.4 GTN.

There should be two fields when picking the price of an item you are selling. "Price" when choosing how much you want the base item to cost and "Price with Taxes" when choosing how much you want the base price with taxes to cost.

I prefer the new posting fees which forces people think a bit more than the current system; where posting fees, whether the auction sells, times out, or is canceled, is completely meaningless.

I also prefer that the lowest priced item will be the default (and only option) to be bought first. No more accidentally buying an item which costs more when a cheaper one is already posted.

Taxes buyers pay at the higher end being 14.95% of the sale seems a bit overly harsh. But honestly it is better to start off with higher taxes and lower them than start out with low taxes and raise them. People will be happy when taxes are lowered and furious if taxes are raised no matter what the starting points.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[DeannaVoyager]

17 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I prefer the new posting fees which forces people think a bit more than the current system; where posting fees, whether the auction sells, times out, or is canceled, is completely meaningless.

You are in a minority then. There is enough thinking required when trying to do conquest efficiently. There is enough thinking required when gearing up. There is enough thinking required when doing more difficult content. Why would people have to think even more when putting items in GTN? It's a video game. It's supposed to be fun, not a job. 

 

22 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I also prefer that the lowest priced item will be the default (and only option) to be bought first. No more accidentally buying an item which costs more when a cheaper one is already posted.

 

Yeah, because it makes so much sense to put items in the GTN when buyers can't choose which one to buy from, or whom to buy from. Oh wait, it doesn't. It makes no sense at all. I don't always buy the cheapest. I skip all the instant undercutters, credit sellers, sale runners, GTN whales and GTN players and prefer to buy from someone who only has listed one or two items (instead of full page or two). The new system will force us to buy from those lowlife sellers who don't even play the game but only login to make credits they can then sell for real money. 

 

If I can't choose a seller I want to buy from, I won't buy anything through GTN anymore. 

 

 

[Darkestmonty]

15 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

You are in a minority then. There is enough thinking required when trying to do conquest efficiently. There is enough thinking required when gearing up. There is enough thinking required when doing more difficult content. Why would people have to think even more when putting items in GTN? It's a video game. It's supposed to be fun, not a job.

and currently there is zero thinking involved in listing with the current GTN. Posting fees with the current GTN isn't even a tertiary thought considering fees are as low as 3 credits per resource or maybe a few hundred credits for CM items. 

15 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Yeah, because it makes so much sense to put items in the GTN when buyers can't choose which one to buy from, or whom to buy from. Oh wait, it doesn't. It makes no sense at all. I don't always buy the cheapest. I skip all the instant undercutters, credit sellers, sale runners, GTN whales and GTN players and prefer to buy from someone who only has listed one or two items (instead of full page or two). The new system will force us to buy from those lowlife sellers who don't even play the game but only login to make credits they can then sell for real money.

If I can't choose a seller I want to buy from, I won't buy anything through GTN anymore.

The new 7.4 GTN system has buyers purchasing the item they want at the lowest listed price for that item. It's fine with me if sellers refuse to ever use the GTN because buyers will now default to paying the lowest price possible.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[eabevella]

15 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

One of the single most honest answers yet!

IMO ...  "The more complicated the plumbing the easier it is to stop it up!"

The system needs to be easy to understand and use.  Cleaning up pages and pages of entries from the same person and consolidating them into a simpler, easy to read and understand system is always beneficial.  Other matters that overly complicate the system and how to utilize it will only prove to be yet another source of difficulties for SWTOR.

Agree.

It's a game with relatively simple sell-able items since they're all cosmetic.

GTN should be a simple system with clear house rules where people can understand right away.

[DeannaVoyager]

13 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

and currently there is zero thinking involved in listing with the current GTN. Posting fees with the current GTN isn't even a tertiary thought considering fees are as low as 3 credits per resource or maybe a few hundred credits for CM items. 

So? I don't see a problem with that. 

 

13 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

The new 7.4 GTN system has buyers purchasing the item they want at the lowest listed price for that item. It's fine with me if sellers refuse to ever use the GTN because buyers will now default to paying the lowest price possible.

 

You are totally missing the point:

An anonymous system without seller information will be a safe haven for credit sellers and other exploiters. On top of that, we can't choose which seller to buy from, people are being forced to buy from exploiters or do their transactions outside of the GTN.  Why do you want to support credit sellers and other exploiters? 

 

[Darkestmonty]

5 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

So? I don't see a problem with that.

You don't see a problem with flooding the market with 30 of the same dye making it impossible for the people they undercut to make sales unless those sellers who were undercut log on cancel their auctions, and repost?

You don't see a problem with flooding markets with items you know won't sell just to stop anyone else for getting sales?

You don't see a problem with a bot who cancels and reposts their 2000 dark projects all day undercutting any new sellers because doing so only costs them 6,000 credits each time while a single Dark Project can run 4-5 million credits? That's 8-10 billion credits worth of auctions they are able to cancel and repost at a cost of 6,000 credits or less.

5 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

You are totally missing the point:

An anonymous system without seller information will be a safe haven for credit sellers and other exploiters. On top of that, we can't choose which seller to buy from, people are being forced to buy from exploiters or do their transactions outside of the GTN.  Why do you want to support credit sellers and other exploiters?

COD and direct trading is still an option. These two options allow you to directly trade with specific people.

And I doubt your ability to spot "credit sellers" just by looking at character names. Unless you specifically have done business with these characters buying and selling credits to them, I doubt anyones ability to call out specific characters by name considering there are thousands of posters on the GTN at any given time.

What behavior on the GTN gives characters away as "credit sellers"?

Edited November 1, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

You don't see a problem with flooding the market with 30 of the same dye making it impossible for the people they undercut to make sales unless those sellers who were undercut log on cancel their auctions, and repost?

 How does someone flooding the market with 30 dyes prevent me from buying from a seller that was undercut? It doesn't. But after 7.4 you won't know the guy who only crafts and lists 1-2 is never getting his items sold when the undercutter, who is now protected by anonymity, will undercut him anyways with 30 listings. Do you seriously believe the guy who doesn't flood the market but only  lists 1-2 items at a time is going to benefit from the change? He won't. He's the one who won't get anything sold and soon he will stop listing anything anymore. Guess what that will do to prices.

 

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

You don't see a problem with flooding markets with items you know won't sell just to stop anyone else for getting sales?

Again, as long as we see the seller's name, it's not a problem. We can skip those listings and buy from the guy who was undercut. This is what I've been doing and I have no problem browsing through all the items and find someone I want to buy from. After 7.4 the flooders will be protected by anonymity, and people who only try to sell 1-2 items will never get their items sold because undercutters have a stack of items to put on the market if anyone tries to undercut them.  

 

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

You don't see a problem with a bot who cancels and reposts their 2000 dark projects all day undercutting any new sellers because doing so only costs them 6,000 credits each time while a single Dark Project can run 4-5 million credits? That's 8-10 billion credits worth of auctions they are able to cancel and repost at a cost of 6,000 credits or less.

I doubt your ability to spot bots just by looking at the character names.  Perhaps you've used them yourself considering there are thousand of posters on the GTN at any given time. 

 

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

 How does someone flooding the market with 30 dyes prevent me from buying from a seller that was undercut? It doesn't. But after 7.4 you won't know the guy who only crafts and lists 1-2 is never getting his items sold when the undercutter, who is now protected by anonymity, will undercut him anyways with 30 listings. Do you seriously believe the guy who doesn't flood the market but only  lists 1-2 items at a time is going to benefit from the change? He won't. He's the one who won't get anything sold and soon he will stop listing anything anymore. Guess what that will do to prices.

 

Again, as long as we see the seller's name, it's not a problem. We can skip those listings and buy from the guy who was undercut. This is what I've been doing and I have no problem browsing through all the items and find someone I want to buy from. After 7.4 the flooders will be protected by anonymity, and people who only try to sell 1-2 items will never get their items sold because undercutters have a stack of items to put on the market if anyone tries to undercut them.  

 

I doubt your ability to spot bots just by looking at the character names.  Perhaps you've used them yourself considering there are thousand of posters on the GTN at any given time. 

 

I never stated that currently flooding the market with 30 of the same item stops people from buying higher priced items, it greatly lowers the chances of players buying from undercut players, but doesn't completely stop people like it will in 7.4.

Currently, people flooding the market with 30 of the same item only drops the price of that item and can lead to price wars where multiple players are constantly canceling/reposting their auctions undercutting each other since current posting fees are insignificant no matter the price of the item.

Impactful Non-refundable posting fees are the only thing that will slow down this behavior in 7.4.

And no, I can not spot a bot by name, only behavior that resembles a bot when I time out their canceling and reposting happening at set intervals. Considering that SWTOR is an MMO and does not have superior anti-cheat detection compared to larger more successful MMOs, bots are inevitable.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[DeannaVoyager]

59 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I never stated that currently flooding the market with 30 of the same items stops people from buying higher priced items, it greatly lowers the chances of players buying from undercut players, but doesn't completely stop people like it will in 7.4.

Exactly. So far we've had the option to ignore flooders and buy from the next guy. After 7.4 we are being forced to buy from the flooder which will reward people for undercutting and flooding the market and punish the people who only want to sell an item or two. How is this an improvement?  

 

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

Currently, people flooding the market with 30 of the same item only drops the price of that item and can lead to price wars where multiple players constantly cancel/reposting their auctions undercutting each other since current posting fees are insignificant no matter the price of the item.

And how is this a problem? It's the only way to get anything sold for people who only want to sell an item or two and it's the only thing that keeps prices in check. It's far easier for them to relist one item than the flooder who has to relist all their 30 (or whatever is the amount of sale slots they have) items one by one. Only the flooders and undercutters will benefit from the changes after 7.4. Either you are one of those people, or you really have no understanding what will happen if all the planned changes will go live. 

 

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

Impactful Non-refundable posting fees are the only thing that will stop this behavior in 7.4.

You really don't get it. The flooders have their pockets full of items to sell. They will only have to list a few at a time and if someone undercuts them with one item, they don't have to cancel their previous listings: they just list more and undercut their undercutter. Continue this long enough, and the guy who is only trying to sell one item will never be able to sell it, because he only has one, while the flooder has his bags full of identical items. The only thing the posting fees are going to stop is the people who only want to sell one item: they will stop listing. Once those people have been driven off of GTN, guess what will happen to the prices when there is no competition anymore...

 

 

[Darkestmonty]

4 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Exactly. So far we've had the option to ignore flooders and buy from the next guy. After 7.4 we are being forced to buy from the flooder which will reward people for undercutting and flooding the market and punish the people who only want to sell an item or two. How is this an improvement?  

 

And how is this a problem? It's the only way to get anything sold for people who only want to sell an item or two and it's the only thing that keeps prices in check. It's far easier for them to relist one item than the flooder who has to relist all their 30 (or whatever is the amount of sale slots they have) items one by one. Only the flooders and undercutters will benefit from the changes after 7.4. Either you are one of those people, or you really have no understanding what will happen if all the planned changes will go live. 

 

You really don't get it. The flooders have their pockets full of items to sell. They will only have to list a few at a time and if someone undercuts them with one item, they don't have to cancel their previous listings: they just list more and undercut their undercutter. Continue this long enough, and the guy who is only trying to sell one item will never be able to sell it, because he only has one, while the flooder has his bags full of identical items. The only thing the posting fees are going to stop is the people who only want to sell one item: they will stop listing. Once those people have been driven off of GTN, guess what will happen to the prices when there is no competition anymore...

do you know point is of all these changes to the GTN? Other than the obvious cash grab limiting purchases, most of these changes are about trying to stabilize prices and turning the GTN into a more effective credit sink.

Prompting a suggested price based on sales, letting players view past sales, increasing the posting fees and making them non-refundable, having sales go from lowest to highest price, all works to try and stabilize prices instead of the current system where one or two people can completely flip a market with a few purchases or constant undercutting.

You want to buy directly from certain sellers, mail them and ask them for a COD. You want to completely stop using the GTN because you don't know who you are buying from? That's your choice.

I have no animosity towards people who flood markets. I have used their behavior to my advantage dropping their prices to 30% of the average market value before buying them out. But for smaller sellers, players who flood markets, cancel and repost to always be the cheapest can be detrimental to trade opportunities especially when some sellers only log in once every 2 to 3 days.

The higher non-refundable posting fees could help stabilize prices in 7.4 by reducing inflation and making the practice of constantly canceling and reposting less profitable.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[TrixxieTriss]

13 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

But for smaller sellers, players who flood markets, cancel and repost to always be the cheapest can be detrimental to trade opportunities especially when some sellers only log in once every 2 to 3 days.

The higher non-refundable posting fees could help stabilize prices in 7.4 by reducing inflation and making the practice of constantly canceling and reposting less profitable.

But they don’t need to make it non-refundable for items that just time out & don’t sell. Which actually hurts the same sellers your purporting to be wanting to protect in your arguments. 

The game can achieve the same goals by keeping the deposit system in place & applying the same proposed fees to it. Because it would refund the costs of items that don’t sell & time out.

And it would still deter people from cancelling items to relist & continue undercutting because deposits themselves aren’t refundable if you cancel the listing. 

It would still help reduce inflation & stabilise the market without alienating players & causing more harm to the game. The un-refundable fee idea is overreach at worst & poorly thought out at best.

This is the best solution to the problem, that still ticks all the boxes & achieves the desired goals without pissing players off & damaging the market & by definition, the game. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[DeannaVoyager]

13 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

do you know point is of all these changes to the GTN? Other than the obvious cash grab limiting purchases, most of these changes are about trying to stabilize prices and turning the GTN into a more effective credit sink.

Prompting a suggested price based on sales, letting players view past sales, increasing the posting fees and making them non-refundable, having sales go from lowest to highest price, all works to try and stabilize prices instead of the current system where one or two people can completely flip a market with a few purchases or constant undercutting.

You want to buy directly from certain sellers, mail them and ask them for a COD. You want to completely stop using the GTN because you don't know who you are buying from? That's your choice.

I have no animosity towards people who flood markets. I have used their behavior to my advantage dropping their prices to 30% of the average market value before buying them out. But for smaller sellers, players who flood markets, cancel and repost to always be the cheapest can be detrimental to trade opportunities especially when some sellers only log in once every 2 to 3 days.

The higher non-refundable posting fees could help stabilize prices in 7.4 by reducing inflation and making the practice of constantly canceling and reposting less profitable.

You are still missing the point. 

 

Their intention to change GTN is good. How they do it - not so much. I don't care about fees, I don't care who pays taxes, I care about being able to use it in the future. You are so obsessed with your whiteknighting that you are totally blind to the real consequences of the changes. Non-refundable fees have NOTHING to do with that. They are meaningless when casual sellers leave the GTN. Whales don't care. Undercutters don't care. Flooders don't care. Sale runners  and credit sellers don't care.  Get it?

 

 The problem is that the new system is designed to help credit sellers/sale runners to continue exploiting the game in anonymity. Instant undercutters and flooders will control the market and people who only want to sell an item or two sometimes will not be able to sell them anymore, because the game forces buyers to buy from the exploiters.  So far we've been able to discover those people and avoid buying from them, sometimes report them. All that will be gone, and you think the "issue" is non-refundable fees. 🤦‍♂️ 

 

You seem to believe that the changes will reduce inflation and you are welcome to keep that delusion. But as soon as casual sellers have been driven off of GTN, prices will rise again. So their intention may be good, the outcome won't. 

 

1) seller name needs to remain visible

2) we need to be able to choose which seller to buy from

 

1 minute ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But they don’t need to make it non-refundable for items that just time out & don’t sell. Which actually hurts the same sellers your purporting to be wanting to protect in your arguments. 

The game can achieve the same goals by keeping the deposit system in place & applying the same proposed fees to it. Because it would refund the costs of items that don’t sell & time out.

And it would still deter people from cancelling items to relist & continue undercutting because deposits themselves aren’t refundable if you cancel the listing. 

It would still help reduce inflation & stabilise the market without alienating players & causing more harm to the game. The un-refundable fee idea is overreach at worst & poorly thought out at best.

This is best solution to the problem, that still ticks all the boxes & achieves the desired goals without pissing players off & damaging the market & by definition, the game. 

Trixxie gets it.

While the fees aren't going to be to game breaking high, if someone only ends up paying fees and never selling an item (because of the flooders and instant autocutters), they will leave GTN, and all the changes done to it will become pointless when trades are being done outside of it. 

 

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But they don’t need to make it non-refundable for items that just time out & don’t sell. Which actually hurts the same sellers your purporting to be wanting to protect in your arguments. 

The game can achieve the same goals by keeping the deposit system in place & applying the same proposed fees to it. Because it would refund the costs of items that don’t sell & time out.

And it would still deter people from cancelling items to relist & continue undercutting because deposits themselves aren’t refundable if you cancel the listing. 

It would still help reduce inflation & stabilise the market without alienating players & causing more harm to the game. The un-refundable fee idea is overreach at worst & poorly thought out at best.

This is the best solution to the problem, that still ticks all the boxes & achieves the desired goals without pissing players off & damaging the market & by definition, the game. 

to help combat inflation yes.

People flood the GTN without putting much thought because the current posting fees are so low and refundable to make them inconsequential.

Lets say posting fees in 7.4 are refundable. That won't stop people from flooding the GTN or having price wars. Instead of posting all 30 dyes I can post 2, if I see someone undercut me, I can post another 2, if I see I get undercut again, I can post another 2, repeat until my first 2 time out in 12 hours, get my full refund and continue. They are so cheap to produce I can rotate 100 of them in 12 hour increments.

Non-refundable fees will stabilize the GTN prices and make people put some thought into how they post and price auctions. And if players refuse to put thought into how they post their auctions they will be cutting into their profit margins.

7.4 will slow a lot of bad behavior we have on our current GTN which is something both smaller sellers and buyers should be looking forward to.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Darkestmonty]

56 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

You are still missing the point. 

 

Their intention to change GTN is good. How they do it - not so much. I don't care about fees, I don't care who pays taxes, I care about being able to use it in the future. You are so obsessed with your whiteknighting that you are totally blind to the real consequences of the changes. Non-refundable fees have NOTHING to do with that. They are meaningless when casual sellers leave the GTN. Whales don't care. Undercutters don't care. Flooders don't care. Sale runners  and credit sellers don't care.  Get it?

 

 The problem is that the new system is designed to help credit sellers/sale runners to continue exploiting the game in anonymity. Instant undercutters and flooders will control the market and people who only want to sell an item or two sometimes will not be able to sell them anymore, because the game forces buyers to buy from the exploiters.  So far we've been able to discover those people and avoid buying from them, sometimes report them. All that will be gone, and you think the "issue" is non-refundable fees. 🤦‍♂️ 

 

You seem to believe that the changes will reduce inflation and you are welcome to keep that delusion. But as soon as casual sellers have been driven off of GTN, prices will rise again. So their intention may be good, the outcome won't. 

 

1) seller name needs to remain visible

2) we need to be able to choose which seller to buy from

 

Trixxie gets it.

While the fees aren't going to be to game breaking high, if someone only ends up paying fees and never selling an item (because of the flooders and instant autocutters), they will leave GTN, and all the changes done to it will become pointless when trades are being done outside of it. 

 

What do you define as a "credit seller"?

What criteria do you use to call out certain sellers as "credit sellers" by name?

I'm being serious, please tell me what makes certain GTN users obvious "credit sellers".

Edited November 2, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

Lets say posting fees in 7.4 are refundable. That won't stop people from flooding the GTN or having price wars. Instead of posting all 30 dyes I can post 2, if I see someone undercut me, I can post another 2, if I see I get undercut again, I can post another 2, repeat until my first 2 time out in 12 hours, get my full refund and continue. They are so cheap to produce I can rotate 100 of them in 12 hour increments.

Non-refundable fees will stabilize the GTN prices and make people put some thought into how they post and price auctions. And if players refuse to put thought into how they post their auctions they will be cutting into their profit margins.

You keep misunderstanding what will happen if lots of stock is removed from GTN.
What will happen if they do as you describe, is there will be a lot less stock & competition, which means demand will out strip supply. 
And anyone who understands economics will tell you, if demand outstrips supply, inflation goes up. 

[Spikanor]

i not see what is the big problem at all about the credit sellers at all.

in any MMO that has more a actionhouse system has that type players so let then be.

i know one game that has people buy up other players stuff up for a cheaper price then it is normal worth and he is selling it on the action house for the normal price or higher.

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

You keep misunderstanding what will happen if lots of stock is removed from GTN.
What will happen if they do as you describe, is there will be a lot less stock & competition, which means demand will out strip supply. 
And anyone who understands economics will tell you, if demand outstrips supply, inflation goes up. 

I've already seen what happens when the GTN stock vanishes over night. Remember all the people (some on this very thread) blaming the referral program for creating inflation? When the referral program ended the GTN stock dried up in a matter of weeks kick starting the hyper-inflation because people started buying credits en masse due to price increases and low availability. Inflation continued to rise until Bioware decided to ban credit sellers and start implementing credit sinks back into the game in the 7.2.1 build.

Having non-refundable posting fees isn't going to dry up the GTN. What it will do is stop some from constantly canceling and reposting to undercut new posters. What it will, or at least should do, is stop people from flooding a single market with more resources than can reasonably be sold just so they can be the first few pages on when listing prices low to high. What it hopefully will stop is people posting cheap items for billions of credits in that someone will make a mistake and accidentally buy a player crafted dye for 3 billion credits.

In 7.4 anyone can afford to post 1-2 items for 12 hours even at 3 billion credits. What a lot of people wont be able to afford is flooding a market with more items than they know will sell or constantly canceling and reposting to undercut every person that posts cheaper prices.

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

And anyone who understands economics will tell you, if demand outstrips supply, inflation goes up. 

and anyone that has an elementary grasp of economics will tell you if demand outstrips supply, price goes up.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[OlBuzzard]

[/reads more stuff on thread... shakes head negatively]

Good grief:
** Regardless of the ongoing debate over the philosophy of the "stick-it-to-the-rich" (because I hate and blame them for all of the GTN problems) VS "My idea is better"... that will NOT change what is being released.
** The format will remain the same.
** What MIGHT change will be the numbers actually controlling the GTN (taxation percentages ... fees charged).
** QOL stuff (such as easy to read / manage) items that consolidate entries (in stead of pages and pages of on piece items or STACKS and STACKS flooding the market (all at the same price from the same individual) IMO ... THAT is a "maybe" something can and will be done about it.

I have said before (and at the risk of sounding like a  broken record) will repeat what I've said in the past:
** Stupid high taxation will never solve anything.  (I'll add:  it only pisses people off.  Period)
** Non refundable fees:  This helps prevent the massive pages posting which floods the market with volumes of merchandise for fear of being constantly undercut.  Frankly ... welcome to the market.  That is how it should be.  If someone wants to list THAT MUCH product (at whatever price) .. then that is a part of selling.  That will NEVER change.  WHY?  Simple:  you're not the only one in the game who wants to sell stuff.  So get over it!  Working the market can be fun and rewarding!  It can also be a royal pain in the tailfeathers!   A part of selling larger quantities is to understand how to release said products at a price that will sell AND doing so in the correct quantities that will not hurt the market (as well as your own objective).

I honestly believe that the team already knows what they are going to do!  (If the past 2 years is ANY indication).  The BEST thing we can (and should do) is to look at QOL issues, accessibility, clarity of pricing (and applied fees).  
** Does the new system work?
** Can any player post an item to sell and easily understand what they are actually selling an entire stack of product for (including the actual selling price for EACH as well as the total selling price for an entire stack (where applicable). 
** Does the buyer clearly see what the total selling price is (BTW... IMO this whole tax thing is a mistake ... BUT no one is going to listen.  I'm only upsetting some when I say this.  BUT I refuse to be less than honest about this matter.  It is what it is.  I will never change (and neither will those who oppose me).

Done and Done.  I'm out!

[Darkestmonty]

 

1 hour ago, OlBuzzard said:

** Can any player post an item to sell and easily understand what they are actually selling an entire stack of product for (including the actual selling price for EACH as well as the total selling price for an entire stack (where applicable). 

** Does the buyer clearly see what the total selling price is (BTW... IMO this whole tax thing is a mistake ... BUT no one is going to listen.  I'm only upsetting some when I say this.  BUT I refuse to be less than honest about this matter.  It is what it is.  I will never change (and neither will those who oppose me).

When posting a stack of items, players input a "Unit Price" instead of the current system which requires a price for the full stack. This will save a certain player from posting a full stack of 250,000 resources for the cost of 1 resource (only happened a few times ). Posting fee is determined by total price of the whole stack in 7.4.

The purchase interface shows players can buy a specific "Quantity". To the right of the "Quantity" field is a panel shows the current stacks being sold and their prices per unit. I created 3 stacks for sale. A stack of 10 for 50 credits each unit ( +3 credits buyers tax), a stack of 100 at 100 credits each unit (+6 credits buyers tax), and a tack of 500 at 200 credits each unit (12 credits buyer tax).

Purchasing multiple resources from different stacks is where things get messy.

If I buy all 10 @ 53 each, and I buy all 100 @ 106 each, and a stack of 200 @ 212 each, the total should be 53,530 credits. Instead I am charged 212 for all 310 I want to purchase even though 110 of the resource is at a lower price 310 x 212 = 65,720.

Open up the claim window and you see

This is all 310 resources and the difference refunded back to me immediately ready to be claimed.

65,720 (total amount I paid) - 53,530 (total amount for the cheapest 310 resources) = 12,190 (total amount I am refunded).

Purchasing from multiple stacks of differing prices can will get a bit annoying having to carry more than you need and getting it refunded.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[OlBuzzard]

@Darkestmonty ..  Yeah I kind of knew that!  Part of what I posted was somewhat rhetorical (sorry ... totally my bad.  I should have said something about it).  BUT ... again you are quite correct.  

BTW... thanks again for the screen shots.  I'm quite certain it will benefit a lot of other folks.  The QOL stuff is the best thing IF it functional  (and it seems to be).  

The debate over who get stuck with the processing bill will more than likely never get resolved.  IMO many of the upcoming changes are probably beneficial.  (Although there might be a couple I would personally change).  I'm not on the team so that is not for me to decide.

BTW...  (my last time I'll bring this up since very few will like it) ... Heavy taxation being paid by those who are buying ASSUMES that EVERYONE who IS buying (expensive items) is a whale and NEEDS to be taxed.  (NOT GOOD) !!

I appreciate your post by the way!