PVP can be saved but the Dev's refuse to do so

[StrikePrice]

Just now, Beyrahl said:

Very close-minded, there's no other slow as impactful, let alone no other class outside of lethality that can obtain its durability. 
I have made my point though, commenting on players' skills when everyone's skill level is subjective is quite trivial and missing the point. 
 

Yes, but your point is invalid. Adapt to the meta. If you can't, you're not going to do well. Why is that confusing? 

[SentinalMasterWW]

5 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

If you are melee and you're struggling with slows, you have absolutely failed to adapt to the current meta and it's your fault. I pvp with every class and spec, but my mains are Inf Shadow, Rage Jugg and Combat Sent. All three have many, many ways to mitigate CC and I have no trouble getting next to sorcs. Now, they are slippery and they have lots of ways to stay alive. But, most of the time either I kill them or they flee the combat. Further, AR Mercs and Eng Snipers are much, much better than sorcs at shutting melee down.

It's bad players that can't adapt to the meta that are complaining about sorcs.

I too have played every spec, and Madness is the worst offender in PVP. Every class in PVP has a pro and a Con, for example Ionic Engis are annoying, but they can die really easily to sustained DOT dmg as they have no cleanse and heal in cover cannot keep up/heal enough to save them. 

Madness literally has no Cons, It can face tank everything, Burst, dots, infinite mobility, bubble and insane off heals for a dps class. Get to close to them and the just use overload and root you, than add the fact that much of their abilites have a root or slow built in, it becomes a pain. 

Just last night, was playing my Dec. Sin in lowbie PVP, 3/4 of the other team was madness sorcs, Why? Because its the Flavor of the month and has been since 7.0 dropped. 

While Ideally I want every class brought up, its better if madness gets toned down. 

[Beyrahl]

4 minutes ago, StrikePrice said:

Yes, but your point is invalid. Adapt to the meta. If you can't, you're not going to do well. Why is that confusing? 

It's been quite some time and I would say the majority have, do you think AP Nerf was unjustified? Fury? Lethality? Things get nerfed when overperforming, why be biased with madness? 
 

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Beyrahl said:

It's been quite some time and I would say the majority have, do you think AP Nerf was unjustified? Fury? Lethality? Things get nerfed when overperforming, why be biased with madness? 
 

don't be mad...ness.

[TrixxieTriss]

9 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

Very close-minded, there's no other slow as impactful, let alone no other class outside of lethality that can obtain its durability. (At least DPS wise)
I have made my point though, commenting on players' skills when everyone's skill level is subjective is quite trivial and missing the point. 
 

Been awhile since I played, but how’s Engineering sniper going in PvP with their slow? I remember seeing these same sorts of criticisms currently being lobbed at Madness, except engineering got a big nerf pretty fast. The biggest difference is engineering snipers have a much higher skill level to play well & they don’t have the same self heals that madness specs have, so there weren’t that many to start or end with. Madness Sorcs are also one of the easier classes to play. Which is why so many people play them.

Edited July 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Beyrahl]

5 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Been awhile since I played, but how’s Engineering sniper going in PvP with their slow?

Their slow isn't as bad and can be moved out of with relative ease depending on how much focus you're taking. Madness Death brand is sort of a set-it-and-forget-it kind of thing. Lot more downsides for Engineering slow which isn't quite as bad, without the slow Engineering would be much worse in PvP. Without the slow reapplying in PvP for death brand, it would simply make it easier for classes to fight back against it. It doesn't quite solve class stacking but that pretty much never will be. 
Though don't get me wrong some classes do have the tools to deal with death brand, it's still a rotational ability at the end of the day, the fact it can reapply itself with the slow is difficult to justify always blowing something to remove it.

Engineering still hits like a truck though, which is pretty much the specs identity at this point.
Makes me sad to see sniper & marauder nowadays, so many missing slots. It would be lovely to see Fury be changed again, main reason it got nerfed was due to parsers clicking off their zen buff to build rage faster to then build their auto critical faster. Its application in PvE encounters was not very feasible. 

[TrixxieTriss]

50 minutes ago, Beyrahl said:

It would be lovely to see Fury be changed again, main reason it got nerfed was due to parsers clicking off their zen buff to build rage faster to then build their auto critical faster

 😳One would hope that BW/BS devs weren’t using parsing scores to evaluate a class for nerfs or buffs. If they are, then they need to find another job outside of game development because parsing on a dummy is completely different to real combat in the game. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

It would seem PvP Season 3 isn’t having the same positive effect on the server population as the last 2 seasons. 🤔 

https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m

Nobody could have seen that happening. Oh wait, someone did.

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/929611-premades/

“What I believe will happen if BioWare don’t make some changes before season 3, is that more & more veterans will leave & less & less new pvpers will continue”

[Char_Ell]

12 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

It would seem PvP Season 3 isn’t having the same positive effect on the server population as the last 2 seasons. 🤔 

 

On 7/14/2023 at 12:46 AM, TrixxieTriss said:

With PvP seasons starting again on the 18th July, we’ll get our first “like on like” look at player sentiment towards the changes & the move to Broadsword. But it will take more than a week & a half. Last season took 3 weeks to see significant increases & it wasn’t till the middle of the season that numbers peaked. Saying the end of July is too soon. More likely the second half of August.

I bolded the relevant section.

[TrixxieTriss]

35 minutes ago, Char_Ell said:

we’ll get our first “like on like” look at player sentiment towards the changes & the move to Broadsword. But it will take more than a week & a half. Last season took 3 weeks to see significant increases

I bolded the relevant section.

On that we can agree that it would take more than a week & a half to see big increases. But at the moment we are still seeing population decreases. It hasn’t even begun halting the decline, let alone make any increases. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Zunayson]

Funnily enough, I've noticed way more forum activity these last couple of weeks! Apparently that's the real draw of pvp seasons!

I'm surprised (maybe I shouldn't be?) that anyone could think madness is fine. The other two ranged classes have some obvious drawbacks:

• Mercs (most mercs) have limited mobility in return for their tankiness, making them the easiest to play ranged class in the game.
• Snipers have no face-tanking ability in return for the most control and leap immunity, making them the hardest and most positioning-oriented class in the game.
• What's sorcerer's niche, or drawback? I'd love to hear opinions.

[Char_Ell]

17 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

On that we can agree that it would take more than a week & a half to see big increases.

So you agree with yourself?  I think that is to be expected.

20 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But at the moment we are still seeing population decreases. It hasn’t even begun halting the decline, let alone make any increases. 

I have to say I think you are contradicting yourself in that you are making judgments about PvP season 3 a little more than a week into the season when nearly two weeks ago you told me it would take more than a week and a half to judge how PvP season 3 was doing in terms of population.  Additionally, you are relying on Steam data to determine SWTOR population when Steam does not reflect numbers for SWTOR players that don't use Steam to access and play SWTOR, like myself.  I regularly look at Steam Charts but I always have to remind myself that I have no idea what percentage of SWTOR players use Steam.  In this case we have no idea how many Steam client SWTOR players even participate in PvP.

[TrixxieTriss]

7 minutes ago, Char_Ell said:

 

I have to say I think you are contradicting yourself in that you are making judgments about PvP season 3 a little more than a week into the season when nearly two weeks ago you told me it would take more than a week and a half to judge how PvP season 3 was doing in terms of population.  Additionally, you are relying on Steam data to determine SWTOR population when Steam does not reflect numbers for SWTOR players that don't use Steam to access and play SWTOR, like myself.  I regularly look at Steam Charts but I always have to remind myself that I have no idea what percentage of SWTOR players use Steam.  In this case we have no idea how many Steam client SWTOR players even participate in PvP.

I guess we’ll see 🤷🏻‍♀️

Edited July 26, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Zunayson said:

Funnily enough, I've noticed way more forum activity these last couple of weeks! Apparently that's the real draw of pvp seasons!

I haven't played in about 3 weeks. been posting though. 😄

installed a 4TB ssd on the PS5. more interested in the console atm. also kinda bored by merc but no interest in jugg, mara, or PT specs. actively dislike playing sorc and sniper, so...youtube and ps5 until I get the itch again. it's not like there's anything compelling to grind for. and I did about a year's worth of pvp in 3 months. 😃

[Beyrahl]

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

installed a 4TB ssd on the PS5

That might hold a game or two, if it's COD maybe one. 
Games have been pretty fun lately, at least 8v8-wise, 4v4 doesn't interest me unless it's tank/heal matches just not enough going on and most of the time are coin flips. 

[Samcuu]

7 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

It would seem PvP Season 3 isn’t having the same positive effect on the server population as the last 2 seasons. 🤔 

https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m

Nobody could have seen that happening. Oh wait, someone did.

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/929611-premades/

“What I believe will happen if BioWare don’t make some changes before season 3, is that more & more veterans will leave & less & less new pvpers will continue”

This is at best anecdotal evidence. You've proven nothing lol. I mean I take it back you've proven that ur not interested in a good faith conversation and that u only want to prove yourself right out of pettiness, and any little statistic u can torture sets off ur confirmation bias like a Pavlovian dog at the sound of his dinner bell. 

6.2 (which I like to use an example because ppl reminisce about it like its the golden age of swtor) dropped Dec 2020. That gave us story and a new FP. Numbers went up a month then steadily declined until Galactic season 1 came out in April 2021, along with Ranked saason 14. The Steam charts spiked for a month again, with the following month's showing average users dropping again. So when content drops ppl return. When they are done they leave. This is basically the ebb and flow of the games population ever since seasons was introduced. 

After 7.0 a lot of ppl were disappointed with the game, and the only thing that pulled a good amount of players back in was GS 3, and when GS 4 dropped in March 2023, the steam charts show the largest population increase since 7.0 came out last February. I've already shared with you that a small % of the population play the game solely for pvp. Maybe 10 - 15%. So I wouldn't expect the pvp season to make the needle jump. The next season and story content will most likely do that, GS4 is basically over so ppl are not logging in as much. Not a surprise to me that the population numbers are dropping. Its got nothing to do with premades lmaoo. Anyways, take ur victory lap you've earned it from torturing the stats so much they'll tell u anything u wanna hear 😂😂

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Samcuu

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Beyrahl said:

That might hold a game or two, if it's COD maybe one. 
Games have been pretty fun lately, at least 8v8-wise, 4v4 doesn't interest me unless it's tank/heal matches just not enough going on and most of the time are coin flips. 

I think I got 8 or 10 games on the 1 TB hdd, but that was a mix of PS4 and PS5 titles. I think the average PS5 is 40g-80g, whereas the average PS4 is only around 10g or 14g. but yeah. I filled the console storage (dunno what it is. ssd?) really quick. I actually thought I would need to copy all my files onto the new drive but the m.2 bay was unoccupied. i bought the 4TB thinking it was replacing 1TB. so that was a minor relief. 😒

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Samcuu said:

the steam charts show the largest population increase since 7.0 came out last February

Actually it also showed the second largest population increase since the game went on steam (which was promising). But that ended 2 months ago when the last season ended and we are right back to similar numbers as we had last December & they’re still falling. Last month they had the second biggest fall since going on steam. It’s all right there in that data. I suggest you look again.

https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m
 

Edited July 27, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Samcuu]

27 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Actually it also showed the second largest population increase since the game went on steam (which was promising). But that ended 2 months ago when the last season ended and we are right back to similar numbers as we had last December & they’re still falling. Last month they had the second biggest fall since going on steam. It’s all right there in that data. I suggest you look again.

https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m
 

And? The population is the population it fluctuates. How does this correlate to pvp whatsoever lol?? Again 90% of the game is pve'ers. So if you've got a 7k player base, which is what ur seeing at peak hours, that means 700 ppl would leave because they hate premades, which is ur entire base of pvpers, obviously thats not happening. Ur just talking in circles now and you've not made one salient point no matter how hard u try to pin the the population issue on the one part of the game that made u quit, u can't do it 😂😂

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Samcuu said:

And? The population is the population it fluctuates. How does this correlate to pvp whatsoever lol?? Again 90% of the game is pve'ers. So if you've got a 7k player base, which is what ur seeing at peak hours, that means 700 ppl would leave because they hate premades, which is ur entire base of pvpers, obviously thats not happening. Ur just talking in circles now and you've not made one salient point no matter how hard u try to pin the the population issue on the one part of the game that made u quit, u can't do it 😂😂

Your copium is showing 😂

[Prapcaster]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:51 AM, StrikePrice said:

If you are melee and you're struggling with slows, you have absolutely failed to adapt to the current meta and it's your fault. I pvp with every class and spec, but my mains are Inf Shadow, Rage Jugg and Combat Sent. All three have many, many ways to mitigate CC and I have no trouble getting next to sorcs. Now, they are slippery and they have lots of ways to stay alive. But, most of the time either I kill them or they flee the combat. Further, AR Mercs and Eng Snipers are much, much better than sorcs at shutting melee down.

It's bad players that can't adapt to the meta that are complaining about sorcs.

So you're telling me a ranged dps class that has dr comparable to a sin tank, constant self heals, the ability to potentially explode 80kish at least worth of dots then reclip them, aoe root every 30 seconds, 2 stun breakers, phase walk, refreshable 50% slow for the entire match, spammable tab dot root and inturrupt immunity is not broken? Sure bud it's just bad players complaining lmao. Man I'm a long time madness player and this spec needs to be nerfed back into 6.0.

[Samcuu]

10 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Your copium is showing 😂

Lmaooooo yeeee I'm the one coping, coping so hard having fun pvping every night with like 10 matches popping at a time while u sit here unsubbed crying on the forums doing mental gymnastics every night. Im not one to ruin anyones fun tho, so if ur enjoying pushing this laughable narrative instead of playing the game enjoy, cuz its fun to poke holes in ur flimsy reasoning tbh 😁😁👍👍

Edited July 27, 2023 by Samcuu

[krackcommando]

4 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

o you're telling me a ranged dps class that has dr comparable to a sin tank, constant self heals, the ability to potentially explode 80kish at least worth of dots then reclip them, aoe root every 30 seconds, 2 stun breakers, phase walk, refreshable 50% slow for the entire match, spammable tab dot root and inturrupt immunity is not broken? Sure bud it's just bad players complaining lmao. Man I'm a long time madness player and this spec needs to be nerfed back into 6.0.

I first read that as Dr. Comparable. and somehow Dr. Mario came to mind.

1 hour ago, Samcuu said:

with like 10 matches popping at a time while u sit here unsubbed crying on the forums doing mental gymnastics every night. Im not one to ruin anyones fun tho, so if ur enjoying pushing this laughable narrative instead of playing the game enjoy,

I've said many times before that the average solo pug experience isn't any different in 7.2 from 5.x. in WZs, it's the same, and if WZs were all I could do in 7.x, I would've left the game again after a week. occasionally (on SF) you run into a 5+ premade, but they are rare. mostly it's just players ignoring win conditions or being really really bad (like not knowing or wanting to know how to play the maps - my favorite is "gather orbs" while the other team is so far ahead that the only hope is to deny them a cap for 2+ rounds).

the separation of arena is actually a breath of fresh air for solo queuing b/c generally there are not a lot of "bully groups" (again, can only speak of SF). I also notice that the really good players in arena aren't normally in a premade. I assume it's b/c it's no challenge at all to do so, but iunno their reasons. I can just say that while there are premades, it's rarely more than 2m, and I'm on the team that beats the premade as often as losing to them, and I was only ever a silver solo rated guy. so it's not a brutal queue. and you do have a lot more control over the outcome as a solo pug in arena. fwiw.

edit: class stacking remains frustrating, and the loss of DCDs due to pruning is particularly brutal in matches where you don't at least have a tank, preferably trinity.

Edited July 27, 2023 by krackcommando

[StrikePrice]

To truly fix PvP, they would need to ...

1.  Separate how abilities work in PvP and PvE. 
2. Redesign the game modes and maps from scratch (current game modes and maps were primarily designed when the level cap was 50).
3. Redesign the queueing mechanism to make it pop fair matches across servers. 
4. Rebalance the PvP-side completely from scratch ... all specs

All this stuff should have bene baked into the game from the design. But BW didn't know about PvP then and they never did.  Everything else is constant bandages on top of bandages on top of bad fundamental design. 

[TrixxieTriss]

On 7/28/2023 at 2:08 AM, Samcuu said:

Lmaooooo yeeee I'm the one coping, coping so hard having fun pvping every night with like 10 matches popping at a time while u sit here unsubbed crying on the forums doing mental gymnastics every night. Im not one to ruin anyones fun tho, so if ur enjoying pushing this laughable narrative instead of playing the game enjoy, cuz its fun to poke holes in ur flimsy reasoning tbh 😁😁👍👍

Player numbers still falling after the start of the season. Zero bump up on population since the 18th July. Player numbers are now below where they were before Seasons started last December. But please, tell me again how my prediction that premades would destroy PvP was wrong 🤷🏻‍♀️

https://steamcharts.com/app/1286830#1m

Edited August 2, 2023 by TrixxieTriss