Return of Ranked PvP

[jlouwthekiller]

Dear Broadsword Online Games Team,

First of all, I want to extend a warm welcome to you as the new developers behind the illustrious game, Star Wars: The Old Republic (SWTOR). As an avid fan and dedicated player, I, along with countless others in the community, have spent countless hours immersed in this galaxy far, far away. Your commitment to carrying forward BioWare's legacy is commendable, and I have faith that under your stewardship, the game will reach new heights.

However, I'm writing to address a recent change that has caused considerable consternation within the SWTOR community: the removal of the Ranked Player vs. Player (PvP) gamemode. I implore you to reconsider this decision, as the Ranked PvP was not only a pivotal element of the gameplay but also served as a cornerstone of the game's competitive and social spirit.

The Ranked PvP system, in its essence, added an engaging layer of competition to the gameplay. It allowed players to test their skills, tactics, and teamwork against others, thereby fostering a dynamic environment that continually challenged us to evolve and improve. As a result, it ensured the longevity of the game by providing a unique, engaging challenge that kept veteran players coming back.

Moreover, the Ranked PvP mode was more than just a competitive arena—it was a community hub where players could bond over shared interests, form alliances, and develop rivalries. The social interactions that took place in this space, the camaraderie and rivalry alike, added an indispensable dimension to the game that is now sorely missed.

I understand that the transition from one development team to another involves major adjustments and challenging decisions. However, the reintroduction of Ranked PvP, we believe, should be seen not as a hindrance but as an opportunity to reconnect with the dedicated player base and bolster the game's appeal.

Bringing back Ranked PvP would send a strong message that you are willing to listen to and act upon the community's feedback. It would demonstrate your commitment to preserving the elements that made SWTOR a beloved game, while promising to evolve and adapt in ways that will invigorate the player experience.

I invite my fellow gamers to voice their opinions on this topic and join in the request for the revival of Ranked PvP. Together, let's ensure that Star Wars: The Old Republic remains not just a game, but a thriving, vibrant community.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

May the Force be with you,

Avid Solo Ranked Player.

[krackcommando]

pretty sure the BS team working on SWTOR is the same grp of ppl who worked on it at BW. but fwiw, I think having a dedicated arena queue (such as we have now) would pair very nicely with a rated arenas queue.

[AocaVII]

No more ranked. Too much win trading and there's not enough players to make the matchmaking fair. And it's the most toxic thing in the game by far 

I'm tired of seeing players with gold flares that don't even PVP and when they do they're awful.

 

You literally have ranked pvp. You have arenas. Ranked without the drama. It's one thing I think they actually got right. They just got tired of all the complaints of the trash talking and all the toxicity so they removed it.

Edited July 13, 2023 by AocaVII

[jlouwthekiller]

17 minutes ago, AocaVII said:

No more ranked. Too much win trading and there's not enough players to make the matchmaking fair. And it's the most toxic thing in the game by far 

I'm tired of seeing players with gold flares that don't even PVP and when they do they're awful.

 

You literally have ranked pvp. You have arenas. Ranked without the drama. It's one thing I think they actually got right. They just got tired of all the complaints of the trash talking and all the toxicity so they removed it.

While I understand your concerns about the potential drawbacks of Ranked PvP, such as win trading and toxicity, I believe these issues don't necessarily warrant the removal of the entire mode, but rather they highlight areas that could be improved upon.

Win trading, and unfair matchmaking can indeed diminish the enjoyment of the game, but these are systemic issues that can be mitigated with effective regulatory systems. Enhanced reporting and monitoring mechanisms, stricter penalties for offenders, as well as refining the matchmaking algorithm to ensure better player pairings, could all serve to deter and minimize these behaviours.

As for toxicity, this is indeed a challenge, but it's not exclusive to Ranked PvP or even SWTOR—it's a broader problem that affects online gaming as a whole. Implementing stricter community guidelines, promoting a culture of respect, and ensuring adequate reporting and moderation tools can help combat this issue. Rather than removing the mode entirely, focusing on creating a positive and respectful gaming environment should be our collective goal.

The essence of Ranked PvP is competition, and competition naturally brings out strong emotions. This intensity, when channeled appropriately, contributes to the vibrant, passionate community that we all value. Removing Ranked PvP may indeed eliminate some of the negatives, but it also takes away a significant aspect of the game that many players find meaningful.

Regarding arenas, while they do provide a form of PvP competition, they don't completely replicate the experience and prestige associated with Ranked PvP. The recognition of ranking, the strategic depth, the sense of accomplishment when climbing up the ladder—these are unique aspects of Ranked PvP that are not adequately replaced by arenas alone.

[Prapcaster]

2 hours ago, AocaVII said:

No more ranked. Too much win trading and there's not enough players to make the matchmaking fair. And it's the most toxic thing in the game by far 

I'm tired of seeing players with gold flares that don't even PVP and when they do they're awful.

 

You literally have ranked pvp. You have arenas. Ranked without the drama. It's one thing I think they actually got right. They just got tired of all the complaints of the trash talking and all the toxicity so they removed it.

door clicker spotted

[AocaVII]

Look I know that some of the people that play this game don't work, therefore wouldn't understand and some do work. When you have a job and something becomes a major annoyance and makes your job a hard time, you eliminate it if you have the power to do it. Ranked PVP for developers and for moderators and for people that watch people cheating are a nuisance so they don't want it but it's the players fault because they wanted to cheat so that's the end and the story.

If you're sitting there working for 8 hours and something is causing you more work to do and more grief you're going to stop it if you can if you have control over it and that's what happened.

Now they can take a break and go to Starbucks and get a latte not have to watch for people cheating.

Edited July 13, 2023 by AocaVII

[TrixxieTriss]

I know this is controversial. But I think they should just make the current system into a ranked ELO version of what’s available. Then all PvP is ranked. 

But to do that. BioWare would need to remove premades vs solo players. Otherwise the ELO & matchmaking won’t work properly.

[krackcommando]

9 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I know this is controversial. But I think they should just make the current system into a ranked ELO version of what’s available. Then all PvP is ranked. 

But to do that. BioWare would need to remove premades vs solo players. Otherwise the ELO & matchmaking won’t work properly.

not gonna fix WZs. but I'd sacrifice premades for arenas. in truth though, a separate rated arena queue would be better. it genuinely blows my mind that the second they finally create an arena queue for ppl who want to play and learn arenas, they remove the rated format of arenas. and then turn all of pvp into a GS clone (pvp seasons).

WZs are so hopeless, they might as well leave them to the groups and the bots that the groups farm.

[TrixxieTriss]

5 hours ago, krackcommando said:

genuinely blows my mind that the second they finally create an arena queue for ppl who want to play and learn arenas

Yes, 100% agree. Arena should have always had its own queue so that people could choose it to practice for ranked. It would have helped negate some of the death matching attitudes that crept into WZ’s

5 hours ago, krackcommando said:

WZs are so hopeless

There is a solution to that too. But that requires the dev team to rebuild the lowbies bracket so people learn to PvP there first. But that’s a whole other conversation & thread. 

[krackcommando]

6 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

There is a solution to that too. But that requires the dev team to rebuild the lowbies bracket so people learn to PvP there first. But that’s a whole other conversation & thread. 

my experience with pvp leveling (from 1.0-present) is largely two things:

1. good players farm bad/new players (also higher level farming lower level and [when it was possible] better gear farming weaker gear thrown into this category)
2. it's a place for...uh...players to hide from max level pvp (which is generally faster paced and more difficult)
3. this is more a pet peeve but I'm tossing it out there - leveling pvp is mostly worthless and (for me at least) deeply frustrating to pvp without your full repertoire of abilities. that does new/returning players no service at all. especially since most maps are ancient, and learning new arena maps in lowbie/mids is worthless b/c players don't live long enough to reveal cogent strats regarding positioning and map layout/obstacles.

fwiw regarding the un-salvageability of WZs, the majority of competent players I run into really and truly do not care about winning. the closer a WZ's win conditions are to TDM, the more said players do contribute to the win conditions (I think causation can reasonably be drawn from correlation there). regarding players learning to pvp, unfortunately, I think the majority of players in the 7.2+ era are not interested in pvp. and even though winning would make their hamster grind faster, I don't think they're deeply invested enough to research and certainly not to pvp much through leveling.

some of that is fixable, but I think you're pissing in the wind on those changes.

[TrixxieTriss]

16 hours ago, krackcommando said:

my experience with pvp leveling (from 1.0-present) is largely two things:

1. good players farm bad/new players (also higher level farming lower level and [when it was possible] better gear farming weaker gear thrown into this category)
2. it's a place for...uh...players to hide from max level pvp (which is generally faster paced and more difficult)
3. this is more a pet peeve but I'm tossing it out there - leveling pvp is mostly worthless and (for me at least) deeply frustrating to pvp without your full repertoire of abilities. that does new/returning players no service at all. especially since most maps are ancient, and learning new arena maps in lowbie/mids is worthless b/c players don't live long enough to reveal cogent strats regarding positioning and map layout/obstacles.

fwiw regarding the un-salvageability of WZs, the majority of competent players I run into really and truly do not care about winning. the closer a WZ's win conditions are to TDM, the more said players do contribute to the win conditions (I think causation can reasonably be drawn from correlation there). regarding players learning to pvp, unfortunately, I think the majority of players in the 7.2+ era are not interested in pvp. and even though winning would make their hamster grind faster, I don't think they're deeply invested enough to research and certainly not to pvp much through leveling.

some of that is fixable, but I think you're pissing in the wind on those changes.

A lot of that is true. Which is why I wouldn’t remake it like it is now or the original type of lowbies. 

You may also be right about people not wanting to learn. Honestly, I don’t actually understand their attitude to learning. They seem to not care about getting better & enjoying PvP itself.

I do think Broadsword have an opportunity to rebuild PvP on the back of seasons. But they also need to add a real competitive element to it like a top 100 or something similar.

They could start that by just starting the leaderboards up again & everyone’s current private ELO determines position.  Then add a couple of extra rewards you can only get by climbing the ranks. 

As for lowbies. I would turn it into a PvP system like they have in Gw2. Remove the brackets & give everyone max lvl abilities and max stats. People could then lvl up in PvP all the way from lvl 1 to 80. It would be like a new lvling reg queue. The rewards would be based on achievements & medals, as well as winning. But not full seasons rewards, not till they play in the lvl 80 only bracket. And part of those rewards would be PvP gear to wear in the lvl 80 only bracket.

Sure that might be a bit of a pipe dream & may not work due to poor player attitudes. But the devs can’t control the attitudes. What they can do is provide systems to help improve PvP & then see what happens. 

[sharpenedstick]

Removing ranked was a bad idea, not because it was particularly active or particularly fun, but because it was content in a game that needs content. Believing PvP Seasons was going to be a replacement for ranked is indicative of the kind of lazy development that marks SWTOR's design staff.

[elimatorxv]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:52 AM, TrixxieTriss said:

There is a solution to that too. But that requires the dev team to rebuild the lowbies bracket so people learn to PvP there first. But that’s a whole other conversation & thread. 

it requires a whole rebuild of the exp gain so that you dont outlvl lowbie bracket but you are right its a whole different conversation.

[krackcommando]

7 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

You may also be right about people not wanting to learn. Honestly, I don’t actually understand their attitude to learning. They seem to not care about getting better & enjoying PvP itself.

this happened/happens in WoW as well. lemme take Shadowlands as an example b/c I haven't played much of Dragonflight:

1. imo, it all starts with the years-old decision not to separate PVP gear from PVE gear (expertise or resilience...w/e).
2. everyone wants to get the best gear they can, and most players want to get it the fastest that they can. thus they take the fastest route to higher level gear - which is actually the same gear across all modes.
3. I think in 6.x(?), GSF was the fastest way to grind gear. I think you and others recommended this when ppl came on. At another point, spamming Hammer Station was the fastest. In WoW Shadowlands, PvP was the fastest way to get gear (although I think SL did some weirdness with weekly chests, but I digress). The point is significant portions of a player set will "hold their nose" and do an activity they don't like (even despise?) if it means getting their gear quicker (for raiding or w/e).
4. this is actually why I liked the 7.0 plan to create separate gear tracks for the various activities in SWTOR. but as usual, BW's implementation just confused everything. instead of simply "de-bolstering" (not sure the term) 339 gear down to its equivalent 332 while in a pvp instance (and all pvp is instanced now, even OW, so this is entirely possible to do), they did some weird thing where higher ilvl have significantly higher HP but an indeterminate nerf to tertiary stats? talk about obfuscation. tbh, I initially thought they were going back to the days of old where you have basic solo greens, and then only the gear for that particular type of content could be used. that would be most rigidly functional, but the crying about carrying 3-4 gear sets and aug sets would also be very loud and understandable, imo. so I get why that didn't happen. it's just...there seems to be no point in the various gearing paths if all the gear is used in every game mode. and now, no one knows how to interpret HP and ilvl (except if you're both low ilvl and low HP). iunno. it's a right mess.

edit: sorry. got side tracked thinking about the gearing mess in arenas. my point in replying was numbers 2 + 3. if I don't like pvp, then I'm not "practicing" it while leveling. I'm just hopping in at 80, maybe getting a carry from a guildy/friend or someone paid to do so (in-game items; don't tell a certain someone we're talking about this; i have enough infraction points). there's a cottage industry in WoW of ppl pulling others through rated pvp just so they can gear quicker. they're not interesting in getting better or actually playing the mode.

edit2: and you've experienced this with the perdy dude on this board. and just the flood of incompetent players who throw themselves at w/e GS or CQ or PVP Seasons tells them to when it tells them to do so.

Edited July 15, 2023 by krackcommando

[Samcuu]

Agree that removing 4s was stupid because yes it was content. Ranked had many issues tho that have been discussed ad nauseum at this point no reason to get into it, and for that reason I don't think it should return in its past form. There should be some type of replacement tho, it needed to be reworked. 

The thing I've always disliked about swtor is that it's very much just a bland theme park mmo, which limits it's playability to a certain extent. Devs have to pump out content for the locusts who consume said content in a few weeks then are gone. Its not a good model for a game who wants to keep long term customers engaged. None of the game modes work in conjunction with eachother which is a hallmark of a great mmo imo. 

For example in Star Wars Galaxies you could craft your own items for use in pvp. Combat Medics could use poisons (dot damage) and you could buy those from ppl who crafted them. Or you could craft your own poisons. You could go to all the planets and survey areas for rich deposits of minerals you needed for crafting, you could set up factories to produce the poisons. There were world bosses that dropped Rancor Bile which u needed to craft your poisons and if you camped the spawn rngeesus might bless you with a particularly strong strain of the bile and then you'd able to craft your own godly poisons which deleted ppls health bars. Tbh it's too late for this kind of stuff to ever happen in swtor, and then you'd get into a debate about the current gamer and their willingness to play a style of mmo like that. However I do believe BS could start being more creative in developing systems similar to this. 

It's the immersive nature of things like I mentioned that will keep ppl really engaged in the game even if the content is slower to come through. I'd like to see an original idea if we are going back to ranked pvp. Needs to be something really engaging instead of just 4 v 4 arenas. 

 

[TrixxieTriss]

6 hours ago, Samcuu said:

I'd like to see an original idea if we are going back to ranked pvp. Needs to be something really engaging instead of just 4 v 4 arenas. 

There should definitely be a WZ element to it as well. But you’d need better matchmaking rules to make it work. 

[StrikePrice]

There needs to be some reward for success mechanism. I'm fine with them keeping the current rewards for participation model (even though I don't like it). But, they need to add back a mode where you only get rewards if you win. That level of competition in a team setting is going to result in toxicity. There's no way around that. It's a trade-off. 

[TrixxieTriss]

11 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

There needs to be some reward for success mechanism. I'm fine with them keeping the current rewards for participation model (even though I don't like it). But, they need to add back a mode where you only get rewards if you win. That level of competition in a team setting is going to result in toxicity. There's no way around that. It's a trade-off. 

Yep, use the back of the current season system to build back a ranked type of reward system for winning would be a good idea.

Bring back bronze, silver, gold ranking rewards per season & top 50 or 100 or 200. 

They could allow us to see our own private ELO. But also add the leaderboards back for the top 500 or 1000 players. That would be a compromise for those who are starting out or aren’t good enough to be in the top published leaderboards. That way they aren’t discouraged by publicly being at the bottom & it reduces possible trolling. 

I know it’s not perfect & not fully ranked.  But it would add some incentives to play to win & learn to get better. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[merovejec]

No more ranked please!

I would say that now its fine as it is. People who want to do more personal PVP go arenas, people who want objectives go warzones the game is really fine the way it is now. After such a long time we now finnaly reached a good state of this system.

Ranked was there for very few people. It was full of cheating, abuse, toxicity and so on. It brought up all the bad things in the community and getting rid of it lifted this big curse which was in the game. Bringing it back would cause far more harm than good.

We have separate ques now, thats great! We have pvp seasons and you get copies of old pvp rewards, thats all great! I really like the way it is now.

[krackcommando]

11 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Yep, use the back of the current season system to build back a ranked type of reward system for winning would be a good idea.

Bring back bronze, silver, gold ranking rewards per season & top 50 or 100 or 200. 

They could allow us to see our own private ELO. But also add the leaderboards back for the top 500 or 1000 players. That would be a compromise for those who are starting out or aren’t good enough to be in the top published leaderboards. That way they aren’t discouraged by publicly being at the bottom & it reduces possible trolling. 

I know it’s not perfect & not fully ranked.  But it would add some incentives to play to win & learn to get better. 

500 is way too deep for the leader boards. way way too deep. you go that deep on rated arenas, and you're well below 1000 ELO (1000 was maybe bronze?). most players won't queue if it means exposing their utter terribleness to the world. and there's no need to go that far. nobody is going to be a preening peacock for being 490 on SF (e.g.).

I would actually agree that premades and solos need to be split for tiers to work. not separate queues per se, but definitely separate win tracking for tier purposes.

Edited July 18, 2023 by krackcommando

[TrixxieTriss]

11 hours ago, krackcommando said:

500 is way too deep for the leader boards. way way too deep. you go that deep on rated arenas, and you're well below 1000 ELO (1000 was maybe bronze?). most players won't queue if it means exposing their utter terribleness to the world. and there's no need to go that far. nobody is going to be a preening peacock for being 490 on SF (e.g.).

I would actually agree that premades and solos need to be split for tiers to work. not separate queues per se, but definitely separate win tracking for tier purposes.

The 500 number was just something I threw out there.

But you’re probably right. 500 is probably too deep. Maybe split it & make it 250 🤷🏻‍♀️

When you consider many players have multiple Alts. You’d only need 125 legit ranked players with 2 alts to get to 250.

[krackcommando]

7 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

The 500 number was just something I threw out there.

But you’re probably right. 500 is probably too deep. Maybe split it & make it 250 🤷🏻‍♀️

When you consider many players have multiple Alts. You’d only need 125 legit ranked players with 2 alts to get to 250.

honestly, and I have no problem with the concept, but...why go beyond 25-50? and this still needs to be class/combat style or role separate does it not? the leaderboard is just an "all galaxy" thing. let ppl see their overall privately as far back as it goes. but what's the point of publicly showing people beyond the top 10? 20? of the server.

[jlouwthekiller]

On 7/18/2023 at 1:52 PM, merovejec said:

No more ranked please!

I would say that now its fine as it is. People who want to do more personal PVP go arenas, people who want objectives go warzones the game is really fine the way it is now. After such a long time we now finnaly reached a good state of this system.

Ranked was there for very few people. It was full of cheating, abuse, toxicity and so on. It brought up all the bad things in the community and getting rid of it lifted this big curse which was in the game. Bringing it back would cause far more harm than good.

We have separate ques now, thats great! We have pvp seasons and you get copies of old pvp rewards, thats all great! I really like the way it is now.

the removal of Ranked PvP has left a void for a subset of players who found value in that particular mode. While arenas and warzones do provide engaging PvP content, the experience of Ranked PvP, with its competitive ranking system and the unique thrill of climbing the leaderboard, is irreplaceable for many players.

[vTempus]

The real PvP endgame with the removal of ranked is to spacebarbie & to get yourself a nice premade and absolutely curbstomp regs with funny nicknames. Bring back ranked so that there's actually something meaningful to grind that rewards skill expression. What we have now is just "play/lose/afk x many games to complete season track". There's no depth or challenge to the PvP side of the game. You do not get rewarded for performance or if you improve as a player, since you get the same exact outcome/rewards/titles whatever by losing every game and by getting carried. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by vTempus
grammar