One long-time fan's opinion of the Jedi.

[Neverfar]

I've noticed quite a bit of advocacy in this forum and elsewhere for the Sith Empire and its ideals, at least in favor over the Republic and the Jedi Order.

 

Much of this, discussing in the "which one is right/better" threads on this forum, seems to stem from a sentiment that the Jedi are a cult of sorts that deny the emotions and baser instincts of human beings (sentient aliens included). Further, the political corruption and indecisiveness of the Republic is compared unfavorably to the Sith Empire, which is implied to be a model of order and decisiveness.

 

Regarding the Jedi, I feel that the "cult" perception is an over-reaction to the selflessness stressed by the Jedi Code. Jedi have emotions, absolutely. They exist, however, in a galaxy far, far away where supernatural power with very real manifestation and expression in the physical world is an everyday reality. Hatred can be channeled in ways that can strangle the life out of other beings, destroy inanimate objects, and cause all sorts of mayhem. For this reason, the Jedi train at a very young age before they have many external attachments to distract them from the life they're preparing for: a life of dedication and service to the Republic and to the Force itself.

 

I can understand why a lot of people are put off by the Jedi, feeling that they threaten the perceived "humanity" of those around them. What they fail to acknowledge is that the Sith, in this same fictional universe where the energy field that binds all living things, use the Force not only without the emotional restraints of the Jedi, but often use it to subjugate the will of those around them. Their "freedom" is parasitic, and often involves the freedom to destroy the freedom of others, and not just those in their order.

 

The Republic is corrupt and politically indecisive, yes, but the false equivalency between the Republic and the Sith Empire that is often made in this forum suggests that the two sides are inexplicably parallel in their wrongdoings, and that the Sith Empire offers perks to those who are "strong" (read: connected and privileged) so in the balance one may as well favor the Empire all things considered.

 

My problem with this is twofold. Binary thinking is a bad thing, for one. Acts of selfishness, greed, and murderous ambition exist in both factions, yes, but at different orders of magnitude and frequency. The Republic is a cause that is undermined by many of its members, wheras the Sith Empire exists almost entirely as a hereditary oligarchy where treachery MIGHT get someone to higher station.

 

The second problem I have with this is, is the notion that "at least they're honest" somehow justifies the belief and society of the Sith as an ethically superior choice. Again, there's a false equivalency where political corruption is made equal to an out-front and all-out liberty-crushing regime. There is no equivalency here. There are very distinct shades of grey.

 

The "freedom" of the Sith is for those on the very top, which sadly so many people perceive themselves as being deserving of, even entitled to, for their advocacy. It scares me a little that people are perfectly fine with the notion of robbing others of their basic liberties so long as they themselves feel absolutely free to do so.

 

I'll take a bickering, corrupt and conflicted society with a selfless and emotionally moderated Jedi Order anyday over the Sith Empire and its runaway monstrous idea of "freedom."

 

Thoughts?

[TItanten]

It's just evil being sexy to a casual observer in a fictional setting.

 

The Sith are murdering, arrogant, hate-filled beings. Not too many people truely want to be like that, in-fact most of society is built around protecting us from those types.

 

Since, everything else in Star Wars is based on WW2 I think the next analogy is apt without applying Godwin's Law.

 

You can think of the Sith (and more appropriately the Empire from the original trilogy) as the Nazis.

 

You have a Xenophobic well-spoken leader assume power through democratic means only to appoint himself as the supreme leader and turn a republic into a dictatorship. Palpatine gets rid of anyone that does not look like him (Aliens).

 

Think of the sith as the SS. Sure there were normal people in the Empire just fighting because they thought it was better, but the Sith were the ones that BELIEVED they (individually) were superior. They were the most powerful beings in the galaxy and they'd kill anyone to prove it.

 

So, sure, the sith are popular because it's fiction. In real life, though, evil doesn't have too many fans.

[Neverfar]

It's just evil being sexy to a casual observer in a fictional setting.

 

The Sith are murdering, arrogant, hate-filled beings. Not too many people truely want to be like that, in-fact most of society is built around protecting us from those types.

 

Since, everything else in Star Wars is based on WW2 I think the next analogy is apt without applying Godwin's Law.

 

You can think of the Sith (and more appropriately the Empire from the original trilogy) as the Nazis.

 

You have a Xenophobic well-spoken leader assume power through democratic means only to appoint himself as the supreme leader and turn a republic into a dictatorship. Palpatine gets rid of anyone that does not look like him (Aliens).

 

Think of the sith as the SS. Sure there were normal people in the Empire just fighting because they thought it was better, but the Sith were the ones that BELIEVED they (individually) were superior. They were the most powerful beings in the galaxy and they'd kill anyone to prove it.

 

So, sure, the sith are popular because it's fiction. In real life, though, evil doesn't have too many fans.

 

While I agree with you wholeheartedly, you need only visit some of the other threads on this very forum such as the "sith versus republic" or "Jedi versus Sith" threads, which start as basic "which are cooler" discussions but very quickly turn into expressions of individual, out-of-character advocacy, claiming that the Jedi rob people of their "humanity" or that the Sith "get things done" with an ominous tone suggesting that real life has much to gain by embracing that way of doing things.

 

If you look at it, a lot of them are sounding like Anakin Skywalker from Episode II. "They're holding me back!" "What we need is a strong leader to stop all the bickering and get things done." It's rather scary, the world that some people have been raised in where breaking political deadlock even at the expense of lives is seen as a good thing, and where people believe that they are entitled to everything, including the subjugation of others, and society has no place putting any limitations on their ambition.

[TItanten]

Eh, I just chalk it up to the "Everyone's the Hero in their own mind" way of thinking.

 

Like "Dude, if that guy had tried to rob me I so would have swung around, grabbed his gun, and punched him in the face!"

 

No, you wouldn't. Sit down and shut up.

 

Once the Sith murdered a family member, friend, bombed their hometown, or anything else who, but a psychopath, would actually willingly join them? Forced to join, maybe, but willingly?

 

It isn't similar to the Mongols recruiting hundreds of thousands of soldiers from captured villages either. They could never succede in fighting back the Mongols, where as with the Sith you still have the Republic, Jedi, or Rebellion to join.

 

I wouldn't take a bunch of blow-hards acting tough on the internet as some great sign of the inherent evilness of mankind. Even the idiots over at 4-chan would be hard pressed to ignore and embrace atrocities on the scale that the Sith are portrayed as commiting.

[Neverfar]

Eh, I just chalk it up to the "Everyone's the Hero in their own mind" way of thinking.

 

Like "Dude, if that guy had tried to rob me I so would have swung around, grabbed his gun, and punched him in the face!"

 

No, you wouldn't. Sit down and shut up.

 

Once the Sith murdered a family member, friend, bombed their hometown, or anything else who, but a psychopath, would actually willingly join them? Forced to join, maybe, but willingly?

 

It isn't similar to the Mongols recruiting hundreds of thousands of soldiers from captured villages either. They could never succede in fighting back the Mongols, where as with the Sith you still have the Republic, Jedi, or Rebellion to join.

 

I wouldn't take a bunch of blow-hards acting tough on the internet as some great sign of the inherent evilness of mankind. Even the idiots over at 4-chan would be hard pressed to ignore and embrace atrocities on the scale that the Sith are portrayed as commiting.

 

Scary that the definition of "hero" in anyone's mind would be that kind of person. I see it all the time, including where I teach.

[Extortioninc]

i think turtles are cool and sometimes i play the flute at band camp

[Maccha]

It's rather scary, the world that some people have been raised in where breaking political deadlock even at the expense of lives is seen as a good thing, and where people believe that they are entitled to everything, including the subjugation of others, and society has no place putting any limitations on their ambition.

 

What's interesting is this statement could be used to describe our world or SW universe. Think George was on to something?

[Aurbere]

You're absolutely right OP. And, canonically speaking, the Jedi have the most correct view of the Force. While the Jedi restrict emotions, they also understand that certain emotions are necessary. Powerful and dangerous emotions like Love, Hate and Anger lead to actions that provide unnecessary risk for people around you. The Jedi understand that, in order to make clear decisions under pressure, one must let go of emotions and have a clear mind. The Sith make decisions based on what furthers their own goals. Whether it is the unnecessary murder of a weak individual to prove your power, or killing a teacher to move up in the ranks. I would rather live without emotion than lose my soul to become a Sith.

[bobmcbo]

IMO, the jedi and the sith are opposite extremes- both are right in some ways, wrong in others.

[Reynaga]

Just wanted to let ya know OP, that I wasn't saying that Sith was the right way to go, I was however saying that the Jedi are not the right way to go either, both sides work atrocities, seen it happen in past books, games and comics. In the end there is justification given, but there is still wrongs being done. I'm not trying to draw parallels or connections, I am saying that they are people. People do what they need to survive sometimes, sometimes they do what is easier, and others they do what they feel is the best outcome even if it means they damn themselves.

 

Maybe I shouldn't be writing anything right now because my mind is fried from getting done with a weeks worth of teaching and its been a long day, so some of my thoughts aren't as coherant as I would like. But what I do understand is that Lucas said this is the way it is, and if that ruins your view of what it was, then maybe you should include a disclaimer that excludes cannon after say TCW.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Reynaga

[CephalicRex]

You can like the Jedi and you can like the Sith. There is nothing wrong with fantasy playing, that is what Star Wars is all about. But where I draw the line is when someone repeatedly desparages a group of people and dismiss them as bloodthirsty, baby-eating, godless savages just because they believe you don't have to adhere to either one extreme or another.

 

Really, the grey jedi philosophy is actually secondary here because it is a reflection of the real world philosophical debate of moral relativism and free will. Neverfar is of the opinion that if it wasn't for strict guidelines that should dictate how everyone should act and and think, we would immediately be thrown into some abysmal world of chaos where everything goes, and the only thing standing between us and that is consistency in everything.

 

Neverfar sees a world where everything is black and white and you only ever have two options with no room for a middle ground. I'm not even going to get into the fact the reality isn't like that at all. There is a such thing as ambiguity.

 

Really, if the world operated like that, then wouldn't there always be a "right" decision for everything? You wish life was that simple. Might as well just take free will from us now, 'cause the way he sees it, we're not capable of making rational decisions on our own without some code or God to keep us from falling into mayhem.

 

And really, if you need the threat of hell or some magical guidelines just to make everyday common sense decisions without being tempted to do evil things, then there is something already wrong with you. All you're doing is preventing the ideals you avidly protect with your zealous fanaticism. It's people like that that are the reason things like intolerance and bigotry exist.

 

I'm not justifying and condoning one group or the other (jedi and sith), I'm just saying people are capable of this strange thing out there called moderation which keeps us from the dangers of extremes and absolutes from overzealous dogmaticism and over indulgence. If you really can't moderate your own behavior without he jedi looking over your shoulder to wave a condescending finger at you, then you're either a child or you're just a immature adult that can't be trusted with even the simplest of responsebility.

 

Next time you make a choice, take a minute to pause and reflect about how you even have a privilege to make said choice. That is the beautiful thing about free will people, don't abuse it.

Edited August 31, 2012 by CephalicRex

[Neverfar]

You can like the Jedi and you can like the Sith. There is nothing wrong with fantasy playing, that is what Star Wars is all about. But where I draw the line is when someone repeatedly desparages a group of people and dismiss them as bloodthirsty, baby-eating, godless savages just because they believe you don't have to adhere to either one extreme or another.

 

Really, the grey jedi philosophy is actually secondary here because it is a reflection of the real world philosophical debate of moral relativism and free will. Neverfar is of the opinion that if it wasn't for strict guidelines that should dictate how everyone should act and and think, we would immediately be thrown into some abysmal world of chaos where everything goes, and the only thing standing between us and that is consistency in everything.

 

Neverfar sees a world where everything is black and white and you only ever have two options with no room for a middle ground. I'm not even going to get into the fact the reality isn't like that at all. There is a such thing as ambiguity.

 

Really, if the world operated like that, then wouldn't there always be a "right" decision for everything? You wish life was that simple. Might as well just take free will from us now, 'cause the way he sees it, we're not capable of making rational decisions on our own without some code or God to keep us from falling into mayhem.

 

And really, if you need the threat of hell or some magical guidelines just to make everyday common sense decisions without being tempted to do evil things, then there is something already wrong with you. All you're doing is preventing the ideals you avidly protect with your zealous fanaticism. It's people like that that are the reason things like intolerance and bigotry exist.

 

I'm not justifying and condoning one group or the other (jedi and sith), I'm just saying people are capable of this strange thing out there called moderation which keeps us from the dangers of extremes and absolutes from overzealous dogmaticism and over indulgence. If you really can't moderate your own behavior without he jedi looking over your shoulder to wave a condescending finger at you, then you're either a child or you're just a immature adult that can't be trusted with even the simplest of responsebility.

 

Next time you make a choice, take a minute to pause and reflect about how you even have a privilege to make said choice. That is the beautiful thing about free will people, don't abuse it.

 

Nope. With all the personal attacks, strawmanning, and non-sequiturs you threw in the other thread, I refuse to acknowledge you as anything other than a very smug, close-minded person who laughably claims the high ground of being "open minded" while immediately shutting anything down that doesn't agree with your edgy relativist dogma.

 

Such a nice discussion was going on here too.

 

Yes, yes, I get it, I get it. You're a "smarter than everyone else who disagrees" moral relativist who has shattered thousands of years of your predecessor's ideas with the groundbreaking idea that because nothing is firmly established in irrefutable objective stone that whatever feels good and whatever you like is at least the moral equal of any alternatives.

 

You're the reason so many people groan and roll their eyes at "hardcore atheists" that like to spam their ironically zealous doctrines across the internet. I am not religious in any sense (though I do admire the Buddhist way of life as an observer).

 

Stop trying to impress us with your be-all-end-all-impossible-to-dispute "hurr everything is relative so everything is moot" self-aggrandizing declarations. This is a Star Wars discussion, not a place for edgy oneupsmanship about how much you think you know about real life.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Neverfar

[Neverfar]

It's just evil being sexy to a casual observer in a fictional setting.

 

The Sith are murdering, arrogant, hate-filled beings. Not too many people truely want to be like that, in-fact most of society is built around protecting us from those types.

 

Since, everything else in Star Wars is based on WW2 I think the next analogy is apt without applying Godwin's Law.

 

You can think of the Sith (and more appropriately the Empire from the original trilogy) as the Nazis.

 

You have a Xenophobic well-spoken leader assume power through democratic means only to appoint himself as the supreme leader and turn a republic into a dictatorship. Palpatine gets rid of anyone that does not look like him (Aliens).

 

Think of the sith as the SS. Sure there were normal people in the Empire just fighting because they thought it was better, but the Sith were the ones that BELIEVED they (individually) were superior. They were the most powerful beings in the galaxy and they'd kill anyone to prove it.

 

So, sure, the sith are popular because it's fiction. In real life, though, evil doesn't have too many fans.

 

I suppose, in that case, that the "Grey Jedi" fad/craze is so very popular because they get to do all the cool stuff the Sith do, but don't have the "space nazi" label. Labels are so very scary, after all.

 

You ever notice how weird it is when people take something Atton said in KOTOR 2 at face value and accept it as some profound revelation, declaring the Jedi and the Sith equally morally repugnant, yet the Sith are "more honest?" I guess exterminating entire planets worth of people is morally superior to shady backroom Senate deals and underhanded military tactics employed against a ruthless enemy. Yep.

[Neverfar]

You're absolutely right OP. And, canonically speaking, the Jedi have the most correct view of the Force. While the Jedi restrict emotions, they also understand that certain emotions are necessary. Powerful and dangerous emotions like Love, Hate and Anger lead to actions that provide unnecessary risk for people around you. The Jedi understand that, in order to make clear decisions under pressure, one must let go of emotions and have a clear mind. The Sith make decisions based on what furthers their own goals. Whether it is the unnecessary murder of a weak individual to prove your power, or killing a teacher to move up in the ranks. I would rather live without emotion than lose my soul to become a Sith.

 

Membership in the Jedi Order is strictly voluntary. It's not a prison sentence; one can leave at any time. That's what these "Grey Jedi" types seem to miss: the Jedi teach restraint in usage of the Force to protect its students from both the Dark Side and the temptations that skirt its path. It's meant to protect those said students from the very excesses that caused such tragedies and atrocities as Revan's actions in the Mandalorian War, Malachor V, the Jedi Civil War for that matter, and many other events. Behind almost every massively destrictive act was some too-smart-for-the-rules Jedi that went his own way, and it went badly.

 

Anakin's adolescent "he's holding me back!" ranting in Episode II reminds me of a good deal of the "Grey Jedi" complaints about the Jedi Order, the Council, and the Code. It's there to protect you and keep the galaxy safe. Boo hoo that you have restrictions on your expressions of power, it's about the galaxy's well-being, though even in a fictional Star Wars sense I doubt many people watching the movies and reading the books can have that level of global-interstellar mindedness. It's all about me-me-me these days.

[CephalicRex]

You won't acknowledge what I say 'cause I disagree with a few of your points? Real mature. Shining example of the extremist mindset I just pointed out in my post. Only sith deal in absolutes. You gotta have some closet fascination with them or something, because you seem to hold tight to every idea they champion, as much as you hide it behind this jedi fascade thing you got going on.

 

And if I am the know it all, why are you the one refuting every single person that posts in this thread? Projection is a funny thing.

Edited August 31, 2012 by CephalicRex

[Neverfar]

Just wanted to let ya know OP, that I wasn't saying that Sith was the right way to go, I was however saying that the Jedi are not the right way to go either, both sides work atrocities, seen it happen in past books, games and comics. In the end there is justification given, but there is still wrongs being done. I'm not trying to draw parallels or connections, I am saying that they are people. People do what they need to survive sometimes, sometimes they do what is easier, and others they do what they feel is the best outcome even if it means they damn themselves.

 

Maybe I shouldn't be writing anything right now because my mind is fried from getting done with a weeks worth of teaching and its been a long day, so some of my thoughts aren't as coherant as I would like. But what I do understand is that Lucas said this is the way it is, and if that ruins your view of what it was, then maybe you should include a disclaimer that excludes cannon after say TCW.

 

I respectfully disagree. When it comes to the Force, even if the Jedi Code is restrictive and prohibitive, virtually every Force-based crime or war that has broken out in Star Wars involves some Jedi student (or Jedi Master, like Count Dooku) finding themselves drawing the same conclusions you are, going their own way... and falling to temptation.

 

The Code seems like a downer. Hell, it certainly did to me in my teenage years watching the prequels (who were these dour old people sitting around in ergonomic chairs bossing around Qui-Gon anyway). When one accepts that the Jedi are meant to be servants of the Republic, indeed, protectors of the galaxy, those harsh restrictions make more sense: the Jedi are not meant for their own personal aggrandizement, but are instead meant to help keep the peace and protect justice across the galaxy.

 

Most of the "Grey" stuff is just me-me-me masked in platitudes about freedom. If we have to put this to real life, imagine asking a soldier in Afghanistan to simply ignore the Uniform Code of Military Justice and do whatever he feels is personally "right." I guarantee that a few days later you'll be hearing about him shooting people that looked like they asked for it, that sort of thing. The stress of the job is at least the stress level the Jedi have to put up with in their daily struggles. It's little wonder so many soldiers, and fictional Jedi, crack under the pressure anyway. The codes and rules are there to at least minimize the ego's demand for gratification at others' expense.

[Aurbere]

Membership in the Jedi Order is strictly voluntary. It's not a prison sentence; one can leave at any time. That's what these "Grey Jedi" types seem to miss: the Jedi teach restraint in usage of the Force to protect its students from both the Dark Side and the temptations that skirt its path. It's meant to protect those said students from the very excesses that caused such tragedies and atrocities as Revan's actions in the Mandalorian War, Malachor V, the Jedi Civil War for that matter, and many other events. Behind almost every massively destrictive act was some too-smart-for-the-rules Jedi that went his own way, and it went badly.

 

Anakin's adolescent "he's holding me back!" ranting in Episode II reminds me of a good deal of the "Grey Jedi" complaints about the Jedi Order, the Council, and the Code. It's there to protect you and keep the galaxy safe. Boo hoo that you have restrictions on your expressions of power, it's about the galaxy's well-being, though even in a fictional Star Wars sense I doubt many people watching the movies and reading the books can have that level of global-interstellar mindedness. It's all about me-me-me these days.

 

You're absolutely right. Some people look at the Jedi's position on emotions as a bad thing when it is not. The Jedi Order has seen what powerful emotions can do, what they lead to. The Code isn't meant to restrict emotions(while it is meant to restrict them), it is meant to protect the Jedi from the trappings of the Dark Side. to prevent more Sith from rising.

 

The Grey Jedi are all about trying to be a Jedi while ignoring Jedi principles. The really only good Grey Jedi is Qui-Gon Jinn. Because he followed the will of the Force, not his will. But he also stayed within the Jedi Order and served the Republic. No other "Grey Jedi" has done this. Qui-Gon was less "grey" and more of a Jedi who did what he felt served the Will of the Living Force.

 

The normal run-of-the-mill Grey Jedi wants to express his emotions without the consequences. Because they think they are sooo special, that no one can tell them to do anything.

[Invictos]

After having played two Republic characters (both Jedi) and one Sith character (Juggernaut) to level 50, I think some of the Sith sympathy on the forum is a result of the (sometimes) clumsy way Bioware wrote SWTOR's stories.

 

All of my characters were Light Siders, and yet I can't shake the feeling that the Sith Warrior was most believable in that role: the LS Jedi played as (often) self-righteous, hypocritical and frankly, willfully blind or even flat-out stupid. The LS Sith played as an honorable pragmatist making do in a dystopian society.

 

Moreover, Bioware's use of Alignment points implies a kind of moral relativism: the Sith is given light side points on many occasions not because his decision is good, IMO, but rather simply because the alternative is evil. Likwise, a Jedi seems to be given DS points at times not because his decision (or the motivation behind his decision) is evil, but because it isn't the most angelic option possible. Due to a misguided desire to shoehorn game mechanics (alignment points) into various story elements, the writers have created numerous false-dilemma choices that unintentionally assign moral equivalence to vastly different actions.

 

In other words, the LS Sith gets a numerical morality boost because the standards for Sith are so much lower. If the choice is to kill someone in cold blood or take them prisoner (and subject them to horrific interrogation at the hands of the Empire's agents), the Sith gets LS points for the latter, simply because it's better than the former. By contrast, if the choice for a Jedi is to forgive a known mass murderer (and basically let him go free), or (sensibly) to punish the dude -- well, then the game forces an artificial good/evil distinction by attaching cartoonishly evil actions to the latter choice.

 

Anyway, all of that rambling out of the way, I think there's a segment of the forum population whose experience with Star Wars was originally informed, in large part, by the story in the game -- and the story in the game, for many reasons both good and bad, can be a bit misleading as to the role of Sith/Jedi in Lucas' fictional galaxy.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Invictos
tried to make it briefer

[Neverfar]

You won't acknowledge what I say 'cause I disagree with a few of your points? Real mature. Shining example of the extremist mindset I just pointed out in my post. Only sith deal in absolutes. You gotta have some closet fascination with them or something, because you seem to hold tight to every idea they champion, as much as you hide it behind this jedi fascade thing you got going on.

 

And if I am the know it all, why are you the one refuting every single person that posts in this thread? Projection is a funny thing.

 

Scroll back to your previous postings. Watch the downward slope of pettiness and personal attacks. That is why I do not acknowledge what you say now. You've proven yourself undeserving of consideration.

 

I am disagreeing and debating with the other people. Not all disagree, by the way. And those I disagree with are by and large respectable (with the exception of one other poster just as surly and obnoxious by you that I will be polite enough not to name). I can disagree with them, strongly even, and accept their different opinion without noting the deep, deep hole of childish nonsense you dug for yourself, sir. The sooner you stop responding to me, the sooner your "grey Jedi" agenda will gain some consideration because the mean average of maturity of its proponents will improve.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Neverfar

[Neverfar]

After having played two Republic characters (both Jedi) and one Sith character (Juggernaut) to level 50, I think some of the Sith sympathy on the forum is a result of the (sometimes) clumsy way Bioware wrote SWTOR's stories.

 

All of my characters were Light Siders, and yet I can't shake the feeling that the Sith Warrior was most believable in that role: the LS Jedi played as (often) self-righteous, hypocritical and frankly, willfully blind or even flat-out stupid. The LS Sith played as an honorable pragmatist making do in a dystopian society.

 

Moreover, Bioware's use of Alignment points implies a kind of moral relativism: the Sith is given light side points on many occasions not because his decision is good, IMO, but rather simply because the alternative is evil. Likwise, a Jedi seems to be given DS points at times not because his decision (or the motivation behind his decision) is evil, but because it isn't the most angelic option possible. Due to a misguided desire to shoehorn game mechanics (alignment points) into various story elements, the writers have created numerous false-dilemma choices that unintentionally assign moral equivalence to vastly different actions.

 

In other words, the LS Sith gets a numerical morality boost because the standards for Sith are so much lower. If the choice is to kill someone in cold blood or take them prisoner (and subject them to horrific interrogation at the hands of the Empire's agents), the Sith gets LS points for the latter, simply because it's better than the former. By contrast, if the choice for a Jedi is to forgive a known mass murderer (and basically let him go free), or (sensibly) to punish the dude -- well, then the game forces an artificial good/evil distinction by attaching cartoonishly evil actions to the latter choice.

 

Anyway, all of that rambling out of the way, I think there's a segment of the forum population whose experience with Star Wars was originally informed, in large part, by the story in the game -- and the story in the game, for many reasons both good and bad, can be a bit misleading as to the role of Sith/Jedi in Lucas' fictional galaxy.

 

This game partially continues the trend that KOTOR 2 started of championing moral relativism and making people feel smart and special for playing along with it. It's a lighter touch (Kreya was practically Ayn Rand with Jedi powers), but it's still there.

[Reynaga]

I respectfully disagree. When it comes to the Force, even if the Jedi Code is restrictive and prohibitive, virtually every Force-based crime or war that has broken out in Star Wars involves some Jedi student (or Jedi Master, like Count Dooku) finding themselves drawing the same conclusions you are, going their own way... and falling to temptation.

 

The Code seems like a downer. Hell, it certainly did to me in my teenage years watching the prequels (who were these dour old people sitting around in ergonomic chairs bossing around Qui-Gon anyway). When one accepts that the Jedi are meant to be servants of the Republic, indeed, protectors of the galaxy, those harsh restrictions make more sense: the Jedi are not meant for their own personal aggrandizement, but are instead meant to help keep the peace and protect justice across the galaxy.

 

Most of the "Grey" stuff is just me-me-me masked in platitudes about freedom. If we have to put this to real life, imagine asking a soldier in Afghanistan to simply ignore the Uniform Code of Military Justice and do whatever he feels is personally "right." I guarantee that a few days later you'll be hearing about him shooting people that looked like they asked for it, that sort of thing. The stress of the job is at least the stress level the Jedi have to put up with in their daily struggles. It's little wonder so many soldiers, and fictional Jedi, crack under the pressure anyway. The codes and rules are there to at least minimize the ego's demand for gratification at others' expense.

 

ok, I was not saying that you were wrong about the Jedi, the ones who actually follow their code are for all intents and purposes good, because they don't really put themselves out there in the real world. The Republic is that I am talking about. perhaps I did not make that point clear enough which is a problem I am told where I have conversations in my head and don't fully explain what I think. When talking about the jedi I am including the republic as a whole, because they belong to them, same goes for the sith, they are part of the empire. The discussion we have been having seems to be engaged in was a single perspective. I know you don't like what I am saying, because you flammed me a few times about it. The point being that not all civilizations point of views carry universally, 200 years ago it was ok if Americans owned slaves and beat their wife on the Virginian court house's front steps as long as they did it on Sunday and with a rod no thicker than their thumb. But American's morals have evolved (for the most part). Some countries in the world do not hold American morals and ethics as the absolute truth.

 

To think that the whole of the Galaxy keeps to the same standards across the boards is highly arrogant. Saying that the dark side is evil and that light is good is also placing morals on a color spectrum. Here is a moral quandry for you, and it is from one of my favorite stories, Seven Samurai, later remade to the Magnificent Seven. A village is under attack by marauders and the village can not properly defend themselves, should someone who can deal with the marauders come and stop them or not? By helping the village that person is making the village weaker because they have come to depend on someone else to deal with their problem instead of standing up for themselves and evolving. But is it wrong to leave the village to fight their own battle? There is no easy answer. It would be sad if the village stood up to the marauders and they lost, but in life there are 25 species a day that go extinct, 25 a day without the help of humans expanding their territory or polution, they just go. And it is our arrogance to think that we know better than nature about what should live or die.

 

If you don't like what I say I am sorry, but that doesn't mean that I am wrong just because you don't agree. Differing points of view make the spice of life.

[OldVengeance]

I certainly see the awkward dichotomy of Empire and Republic standards are very different when it comes to Lightside points, but I don't know that it makes the Republic seem worse. If anyone I think it makes Lightside Imperials seems a little more like hypocrites. One of my Jedi characters is lightside to the Max, I selected for a darkside option twice (both times to help somebody) and honestly I never felt like she was a especially hypocritical, self-righteous, arrogant or foolish. Admittedly a large part of that comes from all the normal dialogue options, but even so I did not find it hard to sound like a Jedi without sounding like an unrelatable jerk.

 

My Lightside Empire characters meanwhile I couldn't help but feel a little awkward playing sometimes because I try to be nice but most Imperial quests are inherently evil. Most of them involve brutally crushing those that are just resisting or avenging Imperial domination or invasion.

 

Either way though, it does seem likely that a character who chooses exclusively Light or Dark choice and dialouge may be off putting to a general audience .

 

Regarding the Jedi as a whole, I agree with the OP. When it comes to Kotor 2, I'm not opposed to including some moral ambiguity into the story. After all the Jedi aren't perfect and even in Kotor 1, there was a case to be made that they made a mistake for waiting as long as they did to enter the war. But I got the impression that Kotor 2 wanted to try to turn the entire good vs evil story, on it's head and paint the Jedi and the Force as the real problem in the galaxy or something. That's not fitting for Star Wars.

 

I don't know that SWTOR had the same theme, even if they intentiaonlly tried to add more morally dubious acts from the Republic by the end.

 

Atton may have had a reason to be bitter, but he's totally wrong when he equates the Jedi and Sith. That might, not be a big deal by itself but he's hardly the only one. And Kreia, well I wanted to tell her she was wrong about everything almost from start to finish but never felt like I had the chance.

[Neverfar]

ok, I was not saying that you were wrong about the Jedi, the ones who actually follow their code are for all intents and purposes good, because they don't really put themselves out there in the real world. The Republic is that I am talking about. perhaps I did not make that point clear enough which is a problem I am told where I have conversations in my head and don't fully explain what I think. When talking about the jedi I am including the republic as a whole, because they belong to them, same goes for the sith, they are part of the empire. The discussion we have been having seems to be engaged in was a single perspective. I know you don't like what I am saying, because you flammed me a few times about it. The point being that not all civilizations point of views carry universally, 200 years ago it was ok if Americans owned slaves and beat their wife on the Virginian court house's front steps as long as they did it on Sunday and with a rod no thicker than their thumb. But American's morals have evolved (for the most part). Some countries in the world do not hold American morals and ethics as the absolute truth.

 

To think that the whole of the Galaxy keeps to the same standards across the boards is highly arrogant. Saying that the dark side is evil and that light is good is also placing morals on a color spectrum. Here is a moral quandry for you, and it is from one of my favorite stories, Seven Samurai, later remade to the Magnificent Seven. A village is under attack by marauders and the village can not properly defend themselves, should someone who can deal with the marauders come and stop them or not? By helping the village that person is making the village weaker because they have come to depend on someone else to deal with their problem instead of standing up for themselves and evolving. But is it wrong to leave the village to fight their own battle? There is no easy answer. It would be sad if the village stood up to the marauders and they lost, but in life there are 25 species a day that go extinct, 25 a day without the help of humans expanding their territory or polution, they just go. And it is our arrogance to think that we know better than nature about what should live or die.

 

If you don't like what I say I am sorry, but that doesn't mean that I am wrong just because you don't agree. Differing points of view make the spice of life.

 

I may still have the upper hand here, if only because strictly in the Star Wars mythos/fiction, such modern realistic moral dilemmas simply do not occur. Sure, in more recent EU iterations (KOTOR 2 especially) they are injected to the delight of many, but they really are out of place with the basic idea of Star Wars, which was supposed to be of sharp contrasts, clear lines drawn, temptations of evil and the ultimate triumph of good.

 

Yes, it's difficult especially for many modern viewers to accept, but precisely what made Star Wars take off so spectacularly was the timing of its style and absolutes in the late 70s, where there was plenty of confusion and grey-area misery to go around. Star Wars was a blissful escape, an inspiring one, and remained so for quite a long time.

 

I suppose with the passage of time it's inevitable that it gets muddied in the name of "realism" but again, that's what sold the movies to begin with, decades ago. So from that perspective I continue to disagree with the full backing of the fiction as it was presented on screen.

[Neverfar]

I certainly see the awkward dichotomy of Empire and Republic standards are very different when it comes to Lightside points, but I don't know that it makes the Republic seem worse. If anyone I think it makes Lightside Imperials seems a little more like hypocrites. One of my Jedi characters is lightside to the Max, I selected for a darkside option twice (both times to help somebody) and honestly I never felt like she was a especially hypocritical, self-righteous, arrogant or foolish. Admittedly a large part of that comes from all the normal dialogue options, but even so I did not find it hard to sound like a Jedi without sounding like an unrelatable jerk.

 

My Lightside Empire characters meanwhile I couldn't help but feel a little awkward playing sometimes because I try to be nice but most Imperial quests are inherently evil. Most of them involve brutally crushing those that are just resisting or avenging Imperial domination or invasion.

 

Either way though, it does seem likely that a character who chooses exclusively Light or Dark choice and dialouge may be off putting to a general audience .

 

Regarding the Jedi as a whole, I agree with the OP. When it comes to Kotor 2, I'm not opposed to including some moral ambiguity into the story. After all the Jedi aren't perfect and even in Kotor 1, there was a case to be made that they made a mistake for waiting as long as they did to enter the war. But I got the impression that Kotor 2 wanted to try to turn the entire good vs evil story, on it's head and paint the Jedi and the Force as the real problem in the galaxy or something. That's not fitting for Star Wars.

 

I don't know that SWTOR had the same theme, even if they intentiaonlly tried to add more morally dubious acts from the Republic by the end.

 

Atton may have had a reason to be bitter, but he's totally wrong when he equates the Jedi and Sith. That might, not be a big deal by itself but he's hardly the only one. And Kreia, well I wanted to tell her she was wrong about everything almost from start to finish but never felt like I had the chance.

 

I think that, because Kreya was never allowed to be challenged, many gamers simply went with what she said. And that's where a lot of the conflict and confusion arises about the basic nature of the Force and the differences between Sith and Jedi, Dark side and the Light.

 

There's a near-infinite lure to feel clever and smarter by bashing the "dogma" of the Jedi blindly without knowing why it exists.

[Reynaga]

well we can certainly make the blanket statements that the republic has more "light side" and the empire has more "dark side", but in the game I don't see that it has that feel. I have 8 level 50 toons, one of each class, I have two dark side and two light side, the other 4 are somewhere in between because I just wanted to answer however felt natural to my toons. Going light side with my BH felt just as awkward as going lightside with the trooper. There are many times that you get judged on both toons for picking either light or dark side options. There have also been options that I have been presented with that just baffled me as to why they were aligned in the direction that they were.

 

But from the standpoint of the Empire, they have a need to expand or die out, just like every empire that has ever existed. The natural stance of people who are trying to defend their home, and it would be ignorant to think that they would not strike back in defence of what they have. But if you see the full stories of everyone you will see that both sides do some pretty horrific things. What is my personal problem with the republic is that they portend to be the shining star and example of truth and virtue while the empire is pure evil. I am not trying to defend the empire, they are evil in the eyes of the republic and thats the flat out truth. But there is so much corruption and evil in the republic that its ignorant to try to defend them. Alderan is a seed seething with deciet to the point that I hate going to that planet, no matter which side I am playing and while I am there I just remember what happens in episode IV and I smile and I am able to make it through the rest of the planet and their quests (every time I deal with a smarmy politition I think to myself, keep laughing punk, it wont matter in the end all of this will be gone).

 

in the original trilogy the galaxy was awesome, I grew up with it and honestly it was a small window into the galaxy as a whole. I'm 33 now and I still remember those as the days of innocence where the world was concrete at a time in my life where I was a multiracial child that wasn't accepted by either side. Since then the canon has changed, and when I was in the military for six years that was when the prequals came out and my view of the world was expanded and I realized just how narrow a view the SW universe actually was and I was playing KoTOR 1&2. And I thought nice, they have more of a both sides type thing, then I found out that Lucas said NO dark or light, not both. That felt like a downer, but you know what, not my IP, its his, I can make my own if I wanted. Got out of the military because I wanted a family, had a kid, earned a couple degrees while working full time and now I am teaching.

 

About a year ago TCW came out with Mortis and Lucas changed his mind, now The Force wasn't the norm with the dark side being a corruption of the force, light and dark both exists in balance, BUT you can only be of either one or the other side, and I am ok with that, because once again, it is his IP. Things change, its the way of life, if it didn't we would still be where we were 300 years ago