Guild restrictions

[xordevoreaux]

I will say this -- had Bioware held a live interactive Player Roundtable asking for input as to what's NOT stupid for correcting the economy, Bioware would've been left with as many answers as participants, with no real consensus about anything, just look at the player responses on the forum to see that much. 

So, on one hand, we can't really blame Bioware for tossing something at the wall to see what sticks. Meanwhile, players must deal with all that crap on the wall and tug Bioware's cape and say hang on, nay, that's crap.

[OlBuzzard]

20 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

I will say this -- had Bioware held a live interactive Player Roundtable asking for input as to what's NOT stupid for correcting the economy, Bioware would've been left with as many answers as participants, with no real consensus about anything, just look at the player responses on the forum to see that much. 

So, on one hand, we can't really blame Bioware for tossing something at the wall to see what sticks. Meanwhile, players must deal with all that crap on the wall and tug Bioware's cape and say hang on, nay, that's crap.

YUP!!

Pretty much standard operating procedure!

😉

[Bobafeit]

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Then you need to get out more and speak to more players, cuz i've been a GM of 2 guilds since 2011 beta  and the only time i've ever felt "slapped in the face" by BioWare was when they took away skill-trees at 4.0 and when they gave away  Collector's Edition to  anyone who never collected it in the 1st place.

i couldn't care less about this  30-day restriction on guild-bank access , since  a) our recruits  join our guild for the chill vibe, helpful members, consistancy, plus bonus XP & perks & such ,  because we don't need to give away free stuff/credits to entice recruits.  And  b)  i never let any new recruits access guild-bank ( items ) anyway , until they prove they are worthy of such a privilege.   This is just GM 101  and tbh sorta  internet 101

well my statment still stands : I as in me personally have not spoken to any1 who didnt feel this was a slap in the face , i have spoken to several today before i made that post , and like i just said to the GM's im currently speaking to on discord : i would not mind at all if there was an 8% tak on trade/mail window if it was based on the same as GTN the price of the item set by the player , so if i get a friend to try out the game and wanna give him some items to get started for free cuz i have them unlocked in collection or what not i should not have to pay tax on items i am giving away for free 

 

[Nee-Elder]

12 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

well my statment still stands : I as in me personally have not spoken to any1 who didnt feel this was a slap in the face , i have spoken to several today before i made that post ,

So have i , and  i haven't  heard any GM's complain/worry about this change yet. ( other than reading forum posts )

My guess is that,  like most hot topics, it's split 50/50  for/against ( or  hate/indifferent )

Perhaps BioWare can make a comprimise soon and switch it to  14-day restriction instead.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[xordevoreaux]

7 hours ago, Toraak said:

I do believe that BW needed to have some form of delay to stop people from abusing the guild bank for trading purposes.

Stop? Nothing stops. It's a delay. Doesn't do much for day #31 and beyond. This crude solution of Bioware's to impose this delay has no net effect on abusive behavior after the delay lifts. They need to find another way.

Edited June 13, 2023 by xordevoreaux

[ivanhedgehog]

what they are doing is stopping you from inviting someone to your guild in order to bypass the tax. closing a loophole. is this the best way? no idea. but it is doing what was intended.

[Balameb]

1 hour ago, xordevoreaux said:

Stop? Nothing stops. It's a delay. Doesn't do much for day #31 and beyond. This crude solution of Bioware's to impose this delay has no net effect on abusive behavior after the delay lifts. They need to find another way.

Delay for what? Tell me, why do you think people do RTM (or CC->Credit for the legit ones) in a game that: lets any newbie be max lvl in days of casual playtime, where leveling craft is easy and is done in background, where making credits is not limited to veterans/experienced?

For me the answer is simple: what they want, they want it NOW. The people that feeds that crowd is the more interested in avoiding taxes, 30 days (or 14 too) is just too much to wait for the buyer so the seller could save a few credits. Even without RTM, what buyer will wait 4 weeks (even 2) just to save 8% when prices can fluctuate more than that in 2 days? Either the seller pays, or increase the price, but door to ABUSE tax free guild bank is what they closed before it was even opened. If people are in a guild with active toons for more than 30(14) days, then they can use the free tax trade to their hearts content, that (imo) is USE, not ABUSE.

 

[LeMage]

7 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

There is a solution. @JoeStramaglia

All gifted / traded items that are given freely become legacy bound.

This was suggested by myself a few others as a way to still be able to give stuff away for free & still close the obvious loop hole that people might use to avoid the trade tax.

But we got lots of push back & no consensus. Because most of the people who commented weren’t legitimately looking to give stuff away for free. They just wanted to still be able to circumvent the trade fees.

If you really want to be able to gift items to others. I suggest you start a campaign asking to be able to gift items, but they become legacy bound when gifted. This is probably the only way BioWare will agree to allow free gifting without fees.

That makes total sense to me. Make it so. (oops wrong game). I give to guildies because I have something they would like. Since I 1st started playing MMOs I never charge guildies for anything. But today, giving away 2 armour boxes it cost about 40mil. Where do they get the value so they can tax? I could live with legacy bound quite easily. I would hope stuff I gave away wouldn't be sent straight to the GTN anyway.

[Stellarcrusade]

Ok, really, all these methods to try to fix the economy caused by a few people, and in-so punnish all users - is a bad idea.  The real solution is to make the Maximum money  transferrable to or from a player per day to be 10 million.  With this make the max price you can sell an item on market for 10 million.

What this does is, makes the people with 100 million have the same buying power as one with 100 trillion really.  It simply caps the economy, effectively ends credit sellers forever, and makes quests that give out 1 credit as a reward just a tish less insulting.

It would be hard to cheat, which means no-one really would do it.  Really, if you wanted to transfer 70 million to a person in 1 day, you'd need 7 characters and he would need 7 characters, logging them in and out just to do that lol.  And there could be a 50 million per day cap to transfer to-from legacy.

[TrixxieTriss]

11 hours ago, xordevoreaux said:

I mentioned at the time that the idea of turning contributions legacy made storing gifts to give away later as party favors or whatever at guild events impossible, a process which has nothing at all to do with avoiding anything the game is attempting to curb, and I believe my concerns were dismissed as minor and given essentially a tough-luck-buttercup response. 

Why does it make it impossible? You haven’t explained how that makes it impossible. 

And as a GM, you can still gift stuff to your guildies without the B2L if they have been in the guild for 30 days. Just set up a tab called gifts & restrict access to it. Then allow the gift recipients access to that tab to remove their gift. That costs zero credits to gift them & the items would be bound. Simple !

The only people who would be affected by the “bind 2 legacy” idea when “gifting” are the random people outside of your guild. 

Please, explain to me how it’s impossible again 🤷🏻‍♀️

Edited June 14, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, LeMage said:

That makes total sense to me. Make it so. (oops wrong game). I give to guildies because I have something they would like. Since I 1st started playing MMOs I never charge guildies for anything. But today, giving away 2 armour boxes it cost about 40mil. Where do they get the value so they can tax? I could live with legacy bound quite easily. I would hope stuff I gave away wouldn't be sent straight to the GTN anyway.

If you’re the GM. Set one of your bank tabs to gifts. Add a specific rank for the gifts. Put the gifts into that tab & adjust people’s rank to a made up “gift rank”. Put the gifts into the tab as needed & ask the guild members to remove them while you’re there. Then change their rank back to normal. That way you don’t have to waste 40 million credits. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

9 hours ago, xordevoreaux said:

Stop? Nothing stops. It's a delay. Doesn't do much for day #31 and beyond. This crude solution of Bioware's to impose this delay has no net effect on abusive behavior after the delay lifts. They need to find another way.

Dude, instead of losing it over this change. Why not look at how you can work with it to improve the game. People have tried explaining how to work around it. This should have no impact on any of your guildies over 30 days. While it will have a positive impact on the economy. 

[TrixxieTriss]

9 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Perhaps BioWare can make a comprimise soon and switch it to  14-day restriction instead.

14 days would probably be sufficient because people wanting to trade & avoid the taxes aren’t going to wait 2 weeks just to buy something directly from some random person to save some credits. 

Wether it’s 14 or 30 days, my only real criticisms with how BioWare has implemented this, is they didn’t increase the GTN sales cap higher than 1 Billion. Many items still won’t be available on the GTN because their market price is still higher than 1 Billion. 
That and they couldve setup any real gifting between players outside of guilds to be Bind2Legacy & have zero fees. If it was me, that’s how I would’ve done it. 

Other than that, I think they are on the right track with changes towards addressing the inflation issues in the game. 

[Noahtep]

So, I would like to expand on my previous post.

#1  Don't tell me how to run my guild. I give my noobs 22k repair/withdraw/summon per week.  They also get 2 "General Goods" and 2 "Med locker" takes per week.  That is up to me - not you.

#2 If you don't know how to set your guild bank and rank access system up, maybe you shouldn't be running a guild... Just saying!

#3 If you can't afford a new recruit taking 30 or 50k of credits or items and then quit right away... Well, maybe your guild needs some credit influx!  You probably should re-evaluate how you are running your guild. I had 1 (ONE) player join then quit after taking the guild limit... Not really an issue for me.  I usually have to persuade the noobs to take stuff.

#4 Don't tell me how to run my guild!

#5 4 weeks is far too long.  A TON of players play for a week or 2, then get bored and quit, never to play again.  A week at MOST for this!

#6 Who would use the guild bank "exploit" to trade items?  It would go 2 ways: GM: please join my guild and deposit 1 billion credits in the guild bank and then I'll put the rare item you wanted in the bank for you to take. Spoiler: GM takes the credits and never gives the item.  OR: Player: please put the super rare item in the guild bank and I PROMISE I'll put that billon credits in the guild bank <wink wink>.  You'd be a total moron to do either!

To top the whole thing off, at least on star forge, prices are down by MILLIONS!

Example - GTN February:  Ultimate Cartel Packs were selling for 400 million.  Today you can pick them up for 125m.  The game has a supply/demand issue more so than "inflation".  Players put more items on the GTN and the price goes down. I'm not sure how this is a surprise to the other players and Devs.  

Edited June 14, 2023 by Noahtep

[Balameb]

2 hours ago, Noahtep said:

#6 Who would use the guild bank "exploit" to trade items?  It would go 2 ways: GM: please join my guild and deposit 1 billion credits in the guild bank and then I'll put the rare item you wanted in the bank for you to take. Spoiler: GM takes the credits and never gives the item.  OR: Player: please put the super rare item in the guild bank and I PROMISE I'll put that billon credits in the guild bank <wink wink>.  You'd be a total moron to do either!

Why didn't we thought of that? So is only about trust. Dude, you just solved RTM problem all over the glove!!!!

Who would give their credit card numbers to a complete illegitimate business in hope they only charge the negotiated amount and that they will later send the item/credits by mail?

 

Sorry for being so sarcastic. But you are either too naive or you are just trolling. 

 

2 hours ago, Noahtep said:

#5 4 weeks is far too long.  A TON of players play for a week or 2, then get bored and quit, never to play again.  A week at MOST for this!

Week at most?.........Nope. Two will be fine (imo)

 

2 hours ago, Noahtep said:

To top the whole thing off, at least on star forge, prices are down by MILLIONS!

Example - GTN February:  Ultimate Cartel Packs were selling for 400 million.  Today you can pick them up for 125m.  The game has a supply/demand issue more so than "inflation".  Players put more items on the GTN and the price goes down. I'm not sure how this is a surprise to the other players and Devs.  

It seems you have some pending catch up on forum reading. Here is spoiler: "massive credit sellers bans".

[xordevoreaux]

9 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Why does it make it impossible? You haven’t explained how that makes it impossible. 

And as a GM, you can still gift stuff to your guildies without the B2L if they have been in the guild for 30 days. Just set up a tab called gifts & restrict access to it. Then allow the gift recipients access to that tab to remove their gift. That costs zero credits to gift them & the items would be bound. Simple !

The only people who would be affected by the “bind 2 legacy” idea when “gifting” are the random people outside of your guild. 

Please, explain to me how it’s impossible again 🤷🏻‍♀️

At our events, such as anniversary parties, people gather at one of our strongholds, imp or pub. Leader gives a speech, maybe there's a short ceremony giving a nod to those whose work has stood out, and then the party favors and awards are given out by the leader, who has taken all of the rewards out of the guild bank that have been accumulated for the event and distributes them.

That process, of being directly handed a gift or reward by your guild leader, in front of all your peers, is far more impactful on a personal level for the receiver than being told oh yeah, um, great job, now stumble over there to that shed and go get your gift, I can't grab it to hand it to you, otherwise it instantly becomes part of my legacy.

No "play our way" there.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by xordevoreaux

[xordevoreaux]

4 hours ago, Noahtep said:

#4 Don't tell me how to run my guild!

Equivocation and relativism never made anyone feel any better, but if it makes you feel any better, you're not the only guild leader people are hell-bent to stuff into a shoe box to fit a very limited style of play. I'm getting some of that myself.

[OlBuzzard]

8 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

14 days would probably be sufficient because people wanting to trade & avoid the taxes aren’t going to wait 2 weeks just to buy something directly from some random person to save some credits. 

Wether it’s 14 or 30 days, my only real criticisms with how BioWare has implemented this, is they didn’t increase the GTN sales cap higher than 1 Billion. Many items still won’t be available on the GTN because their market price is still higher than 1 Billion. 
That and they couldve setup any real gifting between players outside of guilds to be Bind2Legacy & have zero fees. If it was me, that’s how I would’ve done it. 

Other than that, I think they are on the right track with changes towards addressing the inflation issues in the game. 

IMO there are some genuine attempts to get the economy under control.  I don't agree with all of them.  BUT I refuse to berate the effort.

Sure there will need to be additional changes.  That goes without saying.  My only concern is whether or not anyone on the team pays close attention to what is being said.  Then again ... there is such a huge difference of opinion on which plan(s) are to be used that it is unlikely that regardless of whatever solution(s) ARE implemented will be welcomed or appreciated.  Someone will always complain.  

Talk about a thankless job ... (oy vey)

[/facepalm]

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, xordevoreaux said:

At our events, such as anniversary parties, people gather at one of our strongholds, imp or pub. Leader gives a speech, maybe there's a short ceremony giving a nod to those whose work has stood out, and then the party favors and awards are given out by the leader, who has taken all of the rewards out of the guild bank that have been accumulated for the event and distributes them.

That process, of being directly handed a gift or reward by your guild leader, in front of all your peers, is far more impactful on a personal level for the receiver than being told oh yeah, um, great job, now stumble over there to that shed and go get your gift, I can't grab it to hand it to you, otherwise it instantly becomes part of my legacy.

No "play our way" there.

 

You can make the announcements still & ask them to come forward to receive their gift by removing it from the GB tab. Honestly, at this point it feels like you’re just looking for a reason to complain. Instead of realising the changes will be positive for the games economy. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[xordevoreaux]

7 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

You can make the announcements still & ask them to come forward to receive their gift by removing it from the GB tab. Honestly, at this point it feels like you’re just looking for a reason to complain. Instead of realising the changes will be positive for the games economy. 

You just confirmed not only a willingness to shoebox other players out of a desired play style by confirming the problem, but posited a callous reaction which impugns the concern. 

With this change in the functionality of a guild bank, never again in the remaining life of this game will any guild leader be able to present awards at an awards ceremony from items accumulated over time in the guild bank.  Instead, as per your insistence, players will have to scarf up the items after the fact out of the guild bank, which totally blows the entire immersion of the event.

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, xordevoreaux said:

You just confirmed not only a willingness to shoebox other players out of a desired play style by confirming the problem, but posited a callous reaction which impugns the concern. 

With this change in the functionality of a guild bank, never again in the remaining life of this game will any guild leader be able to present awards at an awards ceremony from items accumulated over time in the guild bank.  Instead, as per your insistence, players will have to scarf up the items after the fact out of the guild bank, which totally blows the entire immersion of the event.

That’s totally ridiculous. It’s doesn’t impact immersion one bit. It just requires you doing something in a different way to obtain the same result. At the same time it has an overwhelming positive affect on the economic systems in the game. 
It seems even positive changes to the game are too hard for some people to accept. 

Edited June 14, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[xordevoreaux]

18 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

That’s totally ridiculous. It’s doesn’t impact immersion one bit. It just requires you doing something in a different way to obtain the same result. At the same time it has an overwhelming positive affect on the economic systems in the game. 
It seems even positive changes to the game are too hard for some people to accept. 

Ridiculous is a suggestion that completely changes the dynamics of giving.

"Great Job, Mr. Actor, for Best Motion Picture. By the way, if you actually want to receive your Oscar, you'll have to go backstage after the award ceremony to get it, sorry, I can't hand it to you."

You're right. Not different at all. No immersion breaking situation there at all.

[Balameb]

6 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

Ridiculous is a suggestion that completely changes the dynamics of giving.

"Great Job, Mr. Actor, for Best Motion Picture. By the way, if you actually want to receive your Oscar, you'll have to go backstage after the award ceremony to get it, sorry, I can't hand it to you."

You're right. Not different at all. No immersion breaking situation there at all.

I'm sorry. Does the game let you SHOW to players in there the item you are awarding in a VISBIBLE way? You can see it move hands? You can see the leader showing it for anyone to see?

If so, i think i missed something.

If not. Then, i do you one better: Get the fixed guild bank deco in the stage and imagine is like a gasha machine. Way more visible that a trade that only two can see.

[xordevoreaux]

15 minutes ago, Balameb said:

I'm sorry. Does the game let you SHOW to players in there the item you are awarding in a VISBIBLE way? You can see it move hands? You can see the leader showing it for anyone to see?

If so, i think i missed something.

If not. Then, i do you one better: Get the fixed guild bank deco in the stage and imagine is like a gasha machine. Way more visible that a trade that only two can see.

You do realize the issue we're talking about is her original suggestion of whatever gets pulled out of the guild bank becomes legacy bound? There's so much wrong with the suggestion it's not even funny, and her insistence that somehow there's a decent workaround is equally farcical.

For example:

Actor Number 1: "WHUPS just pulled the wrong spectacularly expensive deco item out of the guild bank, it's in my legacy now, sorry about that, Mr. Actor, 2, but don't worry, there's still a trash deco left in here if you want it, I know you have 50 of those, sorry about that. Talk to the person who dreamed up this idea, I'm sure she'll drop the 150 mil to give the right gift, just track her down."

Actor Number 2: ....

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by xordevoreaux

[Balameb]

6 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

You do realize the issue we're talking about is her original suggestion of whatever gets pulled out of the guild bank becomes legacy bound? There's so much wrong with the suggestion it's not even funny, and her insistence that somehow there's a decent workaround is equally farcical.

For example:

Actor Number 1: "WHUPS just pulled the wrong spectacularly expensive deco item out of the guild bank, it's in my legacy now, sorry about that, Mr. Actor, 2, but don't worry, there's still a trash deco left in here if you want it, I know you have 50 of those, sorry about that. Talk to the person who dreamed up this idea, I'm sure she'll drop the 150 mil to give the right gift, just track her down."

Actor Number 2: ....

 

Sorry, I quoted you from your alleged 'immersion breaking' issue.

On the other hand, i think there might be a confusion with Trixxies suggestion, it starts mentionening the guild bank tab as not imposing BoL, then says item is bound, probably missed it and tried to say 'not bound'...

14 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

And as a GM, you can still gift stuff to your guildies without the B2L if they have been in the guild for 30 days. Just set up a tab called gifts & restrict access to it. Then allow the gift recipients access to that tab to remove their gift. That costs zero credits to gift them & the items would be bound. Simple !

I personally understand it as the first part, guild memebers (30+ days) should still work like now with guild bank not imposig a BoL. P2P gift is the one that should impose a BoL (if want to avoid the 8% fee).

That would be my take.