Guild restrictions

[RikuvonDrake]

19 hours ago, frutepy said:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1002705511935914005/1117848791840735272/image.png

Is this going to affect repairs and summons?

turns out it did,t, so it doesnt matter

[OlBuzzard]

Funny thing about a cool down time etc for access to guild stuff.  If someone is going to steal from a guild ... they are going to regardless of any amount of time .. 14 days / 30 days / 90 days.  Doesn't matter to a thief.  

Question:  Frankly it's been ages since I've been a GM for a guild.  And that was in another game.  Is there not a series of "access to" that is checked off by the GM (or the person responsible for registering new characters.  In the old guild I had ...  EVERYONE had ONLY access to those areas that I gave them to.  
** Depositing currency
** Withdrawing currency (up to XYZ amount)
** Depositing armor / other drops
** Withdrawing armor ...etc.

These are just a few examples of what I'm certain would be a longer check list of accessibility items per character.  Frankly I'm a bit puzzled over the entire matter.  I'm not blasting anyone over this (regardless of position).  I'm simply saying that this is just really odd!  It just doesn't make much sense.

[/shrugs]

Oh well ... maybe someone will take the time to explain the reasoning behind it.  It just seems a bit odd!

[RikuvonDrake]

1 minute ago, OlBuzzard said:

maybe someone will take the time to explain the reasoning behind it.  It just seems a bit odd!

is it really that odd? it's meant to prevent players from using guild banks as a workaround for the fees on trades

edit: they were probably deciding between this and taxing all withdraws of credits/items, but that doesn't really make sense as they want to promote players joining/being part of guilds and the tax is meant to be applied to the "sender" of the item/credits, not the player who receives it, so it would apply to whoever donates an item/credits to guildbank but that seems pointless

Edited June 13, 2023 by RikuvonDrake

[xordevoreaux]

10 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

Funny thing about a cool down time etc for access to guild stuff.  If someone is going to steal from a guild ... they are going to regardless of any amount of time .. 14 days / 30 days / 90 days.  Doesn't matter to a thief.  

Question:  Frankly it's been ages since I've been a GM for a guild.  And that was in another game.  Is there not a series of "access to" that is checked off by the GM (or the person responsible for registering new characters.  In the old guild I had ...  EVERYONE had ONLY access to those areas that I gave them to.  
** Depositing currency
** Withdrawing currency (up to XYZ amount)
** Depositing armor / other drops
** Withdrawing armor ...etc.

These are just a few examples of what I'm certain would be a longer check list of accessibility items per character.  Frankly I'm a bit puzzled over the entire matter.  I'm not blasting anyone over this (regardless of position).  I'm simply saying that this is just really odd!  It just doesn't make much sense.

[/shrugs]

Oh well ... maybe someone will take the time to explain the reasoning behind it.  It just seems a bit odd!

I think part of what brought all of this is about is the lack of in-game contextual help regarding guild setup. No pop-up appears on the dialogue when buying a guild bank that says hello, your bank vaults are now wide open to be ripped off by your members, and the best way to lock it down is by rank by vault, and you can do that by clicking here and here.

Zero. Nothing like that. I haven't created a guild today now that the servers are back up, but I'd be surprised if there's any more contextual help regarding this issue than there was yesterday.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by xordevoreaux

[OlBuzzard]

1 minute ago, RikuvonDrake said:

is it really that odd? its meant to prevent players using guildbanks as a workaround for the fees on trades

OK .. that makes sense ...  until the 30 days is up!  Then it's business as usual?? Creating another Alt really wouldn't help that much either.

Besides .. I'm quite certain that those type of transactions would probably find other means of circumventing the system (if there is one).

OH ..  BTW..  IMO the 30 day restriction seems to have limited benefits at best.  I'm not quite entirely sure that this is the best solution (particularly if it's over the aforementioned prevention of trading) was their goal.

 

[Jdast]

50 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

What the heck? so you think its cool they adress a non existing problem because it migth become one in the future?, and in the same go they punish all their paying customers??

They aren't addressing a non-existent problem. They are addressing and closing what would have been an obvious, easily exploitable loophole with 7.3.

So far, the consensus I've seen is that the one month moratorium might be extreme, but two weeks is certainly reasonable.

You make it sound like an 8 percent tax or waiting a month for a shiney is guild-crippling. If so, your guild has bigger problems.

As the saying goes (at least in American English 🤩) : An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Dasty

Edited June 13, 2023 by Jdast

[OlBuzzard]

2 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

I think part of what brought all of this is about is the lack of in-game contextual help regarding guild setup. Nothing pop-up appears on the dialogue when buying a guild bank that says hello, your bank vaults are now wide open to be ripped off by your members, and the best way to lock it down is by rank by vault, and you can do that by clicking here and here.

Zero. Nothing like that. I haven't created a guild today now that the servers are back up, but I'd be surprised if there's any more contextual help regarding this issue than there was yesterday.

 

Again .. not trying to be argumentative ... just asking:

I thought that setting up a guild would include accessibility information such as:
** Establishing a "rank" system in the guild (this is done when the guild is set up).  Not every player is an officer in the guild.  Thereby creating a tier system of accessibility in the first place.
** new player access (what areas ..  etc)
** Officer assignments (their access)
** Vault (other areas) and who has access and to what items.

Again .. please excuse my ignorance of how SWTOR is set up in the guild areas.  But to me accessibility to the guild vault(s) could be done when the guild is initially set up.  And it may be that this is something that should have been done a long time ago.  

I guess it's probably best I politely bow out on this one.  I was just curious since some of this sounded a bit odd.

[OlBuzzard]

8 minutes ago, Jdast said:

They weren't addressing a non-existent problem. They were addressing and closing what would have been an obvious, easily exploitable loophole with 7.3.

So far, the consensus I've seen is that the one month moratorium might be extreme, but two weeks is certainly reasonable.

You make it sound like an 8 percent tax or waiting a month for a shiney is guild-crippling. If so, your guild has bigger problems.

As the saying goes (at least in American English 🤩) : An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Dasty

Hmmm  

OK .. I guess that this makes sense (sort of).

[/grumbles to self] ...  still sounds a bit odd.  Heck ... 2 weeks ???  30 days..  Doesn't matter.  BUT .. I guess at least the effort has been made to prevent that from happening.  Sooo  ... OK ... yeah!  I guess it makes sense.  (sort of).

[OlBuzzard]

31 minutes ago, RikuvonDrake said:

is it really that odd? it's meant to prevent players from using guild banks as a workaround for the fees on trades

edit: they were probably deciding between this and taxing all withdraws of credits/items, but that doesn't really make sense as they want to promote players joining/being part of guilds and the tax is meant to be applied to the "sender" of the item/credits, not the player who receives it, so it would apply to whoever donates an item/credits to guildbank but that seems pointless

You're very correct ... 

AND it does seem a bit pointless.  BUT... as @Jdast pointed out:  An ounce of prevention ...  At least there was an attempt to prevent the problem from occurring.

[Eldrenath]

I just tested the 30 day guild restrictions on summons and repair and it appears to me like this change was either rescinded at the last minute or doesn't work. I tested guild bank access, summons, and repair funds on a toon that is 19 days old and had no issues. I thought it might not have been a retroactive change, so I gquit on another toon, re-joined, and was immediately able to withdraw items from guild bank, summons, and use guild repair funds. 

[Eldrenath]

13 minutes ago, Eldrenath said:

I just tested the 30 day guild restrictions on summons and repair and it appears to me like this change was either rescinded at the last minute or doesn't work. I tested guild bank access, summons, and repair funds on a toon that is 19 days old and had no issues. I thought it might not have been a retroactive change, so I gquit on another toon, re-joined, and was immediately able to withdraw items from guild bank, summons, and use guild repair funds. 

Following up on this, another member of my guild created a brand new toon, joined the guild, and was immediately able to access the guild bank. 

[JoeStramaglia]

Hello folks! Repairs and summons should remain unaffected by this change. The guild membership in this case should be looking at your legacy to determine if you have access, so your alts should remain unaffected. In terms of giving things to new members during this period, you may still trade or mail the item or credits as necessary to the new member.

This restriction was largely added to reduce the need for taxation at the guild bank level, but there were some additional behaviors we saw during a review of guilds that this helps to discourage. We’ll continue to monitor behavior to help us determine if we need to make other changes.

I appreciate your feedback on the amount of time, it is intended to be long enough to discourage folks from abusing it but not so long that it renders the feature unusable. We may make adjustments to this in the future based on feedback and data. I will try to answer any questions regarding this change, if you have further feedback please add it to our Credit Economy thread here.

[Bobafeit]

38 minutes ago, Jdast said:

They aren't addressing a non-existent problem. They are addressing and closing what would have been an obvious, easily exploitable loophole with 7.3.

So far, the consensus I've seen is that the one month moratorium might be extreme, but two weeks is certainly reasonable.

You make it sound like an 8 percent tax or waiting a month for a shiney is guild-crippling. If so, your guild has bigger problems.

As the saying goes (at least in American English 🤩) : An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Dasty

well after logging in i can only conclude they are killing the game by making basicly all their customers/subs have restrictions like the FTP i cant even give an item away without paying a fix tax price so they killed the free market also , so in an effort to stop the crazy inflation done by themself and a few filthy rich traders , they are negative impacting everyone who has been supporting them with a sub , when you have to pay a tax even if no credit transaction taken place then its totally broken , how is a new player going to be able to compete when he cant sell anything cuz he cant afford the tax? how are the guilds going to have social events and get new players to stay with the game, when we cant give them some perks or arrange competitions ect without paying an insane tax on low value items , the devs who made this have no clue about guilds or economics cuz if they did they would not implimented a fixed item tax ,but made it based on credit transaction who occured

[Eldrenath]

Just now, Bobafeit said:

well after logging in i can only conclude they are killing the game by making basicly all their customers/subs have restrictions like the FTP i cant even give an item away without paying a fix tax price so they killed the free market also , so in an effort to stop the crazy inflation done by themself and a few filthy rich traders , they are negative impacting everyone who has been supporting them with a sub , when you have to pay a tax even if no credit transaction taken place then its totally broken , how is a new player going to be able to compete when he cant sell anything cuz he cant afford the tax? how are the guilds going to have social events and get new players to stay with the game, when we cant give them some perks or arrange competitions ect without paying an insane tax on low value items , the devs who made this have no clue about guilds or economics cuz if they did they would not implimented a fixed item tax ,but made it based on credit transaction who occured

I mean...everyone agreed the inflation was a massive problems. Months and months and months of complaining about inflation. Then they introduced the first round of changes a couple months ago, and even though they said this was just a first step and there would be more, everyone complained saying the changes were stupid and wouldn't have any impact. 

 

So now, they actually implement deeper changes--which the community spent MONTHS begging for--and now they get slammed for doing that too. 

[Eldrenath]

3 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

well after logging in i can only conclude they are killing the game by making basicly all their customers/subs have restrictions like the FTP i cant even give an item away without paying a fix tax price so they killed the free market also , so in an effort to stop the crazy inflation done by themself and a few filthy rich traders , they are negative impacting everyone who has been supporting them with a sub , when you have to pay a tax even if no credit transaction taken place then its totally broken , how is a new player going to be able to compete when he cant sell anything cuz he cant afford the tax? how are the guilds going to have social events and get new players to stay with the game, when we cant give them some perks or arrange competitions ect without paying an insane tax on low value items , the devs who made this have no clue about guilds or economics cuz if they did they would not implimented a fixed item tax ,but made it based on credit transaction who occured

Also, FTP customers are not customers. If you're not paying, you're not a customer. Any restrictions on what FTP can do are perfectly reasonable. 

[Bobafeit]

35 minutes ago, Eldrenath said:

Also, FTP customers are not customers. If you're not paying, you're not a customer. Any restrictions on what FTP can do are perfectly reasonable. 

read again , i said they made US who sub have restrictions like FTP does , so who are all these ppl complaining about inflation i played since launch and have never posted or complained about inflation , neither am i a rich trader ive just been plaing the game and spent most of my time on guild managment , but there is more ways to fix issues, they could have monitored the changes and atleast on my server the prices have dropped 50-70% but ofc now they will rise again since no1 wanna sell an item for 10 mill if they have to pay 15 mill tax

if they absolutly wanna do something the tax should be based on the credit transaction not a fixed item tax based on who knows what , that now destroyed most guild events since haveing any give aways or prizes now cost 100 of millions in tax even if the items was not of high value on the free market, b4 they messed that up with a fixed market

i have not spoken to any1 who does guild managment or other GMs who didnt feel like this was a slap in the face

Edited June 13, 2023 by Bobafeit
typos

[Balameb]

28 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

how is a new player going to be able to compete when he cant sell anything cuz he cant afford the tax?

GTN?

29 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

restrictions like the FTP

Try playing FTP/Preferred, then come back and respond to your past self about what you just wrote.

31 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

how are the guilds going to have social events and get new players to stay with the game, when we cant give them some perks or arrange competitions ect without paying an insane tax on low value items

If it is low value, then the tax should not be insane.

31 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

the devs who made this have no clue about guilds or economics cuz if they did they would not implimented a fixed item tax ,but made it based on credit transaction who occured

You didn't pay attention the Devs. Tax will be updated as GTN average sell (actual sold items) fluctuates.

There may be some discrepancies as initial values are calculated from 5 sever average and of course because some items aren't even selling on GTN (shame on devs for not addressing the gtn cap first).

1 minute ago, Bobafeit said:

o1 wanna sell an item for 10 mill if they have to pay 15 mill tax

It may take some time for things to balance. But if you do see many things like that, report them. You took the time to create a forum account just to complain for 8%tax, i'm sure you can spend extra minutes giving the Devs the feedback they asked. Unlike past iterations, i have to say that JoeStramaglia does read the feedback.

[Nee-Elder]

11 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

i have not spoken to any1 who does guild managment or other GMs who didnt feel like this was a slap in the face

Then you need to get out more and speak to more players, cuz i've been a GM of 2 guilds since 2011 beta  and the only time i've ever felt "slapped in the face" by BioWare was when they took away skill-trees at 4.0 and when they gave away  Collector's Edition to  anyone who never collected it in the 1st place.

i couldn't care less about this  30-day restriction on guild-bank access , since  a) our recruits  join our guild for the chill vibe, helpful members, consistancy, plus bonus XP & perks & such ,  because we don't need to give away free stuff/credits to entice recruits.  And  b)  i never let any new recruits access guild-bank ( items ) anyway , until they prove they are worthy of such a privilege.   This is just GM 101  and tbh sorta  internet 101

[Bobafeit]

1 minute ago, Nee-Elder said:

Then you need to get out more and speak to more players, cuz i've been a GM of 2 guilds since 2011 beta  and the only time i've ever felt "slapped in the face" by BioWare was when they took away skill-trees at 4.0 and when they gave away  Collector's Edition to  anyone who never collected it in the 1st place.

i couldn't care less about this  30-day restriction on guild-bank access , since  a) our recruits  join our guild for the chill vibe, helpful members, consistancy, plus bonus XP & perks & such ,  because we don't need to give away free stuff/credits to entice recruits.  And  b)  i never let any new recruits access guild-bank ( items ) anyway , until they prove they are worthy of such a privilege.   This is just GM 101  and tbh sorta  internet 101

and ive been a GM if several games since 2001 whats your point ? i do agree about the collecters edition tho , well we have 1 tab called FFA that we dont touch and recruits can take 1-2 item a week from that , the stuff in there is added and taken out by the members , but ive glad you wrote the book on how to run a guild, since we had no issues with letting recruits have this access so far we are going to keep it that way

 

Quote

It may take some time for things to balance. But if you do see many things like that, report them. You took the time to create a forum account just to complain for 8%tax, i'm sure you can spend extra minutes giving the Devs the feedback they asked. Unlike past iterations, i have to say that JoeStramaglia does read the feedback.

hmm i just logged in the account was created b4 beta , what 8% tax ? never had any issues with the GTN tax ,but i do have an issue when i cant give away an item without paying a tax based on who knows what , since you are such an expert on the issue maybe you can tell me were is the value of the item taken from to calculate the trade/mail window tax

[TrixxieTriss]

54 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

read again , i said they made US who sub have restrictions like FTP does , so who are all these ppl complaining about inflation i played since launch and have never posted or complained about inflation , neither am i a rich trader ive just been plaing the game and spent most of my time on guild managment , but there is more ways to fix issues, they could have monitored the changes and atleast on my server the prices have dropped 50-70% but ofc now they will rise again since no1 wanna sell an item for 10 mill if they have to pay 15 mill tax

if they absolutly wanna do something the tax should be based on the credit transaction not a fixed item tax based on who knows what , that now destroyed most guild events since haveing any give aways or prizes now cost 100 of millions in tax even if the items was not of high value on the free market, b4 they messed that up with a fixed market

i have not spoken to any1 who does guild managment or other GMs who didnt feel like this was a slap in the face

There is a solution. @JoeStramaglia

All gifted / traded items that are given freely become legacy bound.

This was suggested by myself a few others as a way to still be able to give stuff away for free & still close the obvious loop hole that people might use to avoid the trade tax.

But we got lots of push back & no consensus. Because most of the people who commented weren’t legitimately looking to give stuff away for free. They just wanted to still be able to circumvent the trade fees.

If you really want to be able to gift items to others. I suggest you start a campaign asking to be able to gift items, but they become legacy bound when gifted. This is probably the only way BioWare will agree to allow free gifting without fees.

Edited June 13, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Nee-Elder]

11 minutes ago, Bobafeit said:

and ive been a GM if several games since 2001 whats your point ?

My point was merely a counterpoint to your point ( implication) that  "not one GM"  hadn't just felt so slapped in the face by 30-day restriction change.

That's all.

I merely disagreed with your implication, since i'm one GM who feels the opposite.

But maybe in your eyes i'm the exception to prove your rule.   /shrug

[xordevoreaux]

2 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

Again .. not trying to be argumentative ... just asking:

I thought that setting up a guild would include accessibility information such as:
** Establishing a "rank" system in the guild (this is done when the guild is set up).  Not every player is an officer in the guild.  Thereby creating a tier system of accessibility in the first place.
** new player access (what areas ..  etc)
** Officer assignments (their access)
** Vault (other areas) and who has access and to what items.

Again .. please excuse my ignorance of how SWTOR is set up in the guild areas.  But to me accessibility to the guild vault(s) could be done when the guild is initially set up.  And it may be that this is something that should have been done a long time ago.  

I guess it's probably best I politely bow out on this one.  I was just curious since some of this sounded a bit odd.

I hope this answer helps ---

I'm saying the in-game experience for players supplies none of that information as part of the process of establishing a guild or when buying the guild bank, which are the times that information is needed the most.  You get 4 people together, the group leader heads to fleet (the rest of the people in the group can be anywhere), find the guild guy, get prompted for a guild name in a dialogue listing the four people in the group, you supply the name, hit create (or whatever the button says) and ... that's it. No pop-ups, no nothing.

Similar experience for buying the guild bank.  Nothing's put in your face as to the establishment or maintenance or best practices for maintaining the bank.

Edited June 13, 2023 by xordevoreaux

[xordevoreaux]

18 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

weren’t legitimately looking to give stuff away for free.

I mentioned at the time that the idea of turning contributions legacy made storing gifts to give away later as party favors or whatever at guild events impossible, a process which has nothing at all to do with avoiding anything the game is attempting to curb, and I believe my concerns were dismissed as minor and given essentially a tough-luck-buttercup response. 

[OlBuzzard]

26 minutes ago, xordevoreaux said:

I hope this answer helps ---

I'm saying the in-game experience for players supplies none of that information as part of the process of establishing a guild or when buying the guild bank, which are the times that information is needed the most.  You get 4 people together, the group leader heads to fleet (the rest of the people in the group can be anywhere), find the guild guy, get prompted for a guild name in a dialogue listing the four people in the group, you supply the name, hit create (or whatever the button says) and ... that's it. No pop-ups, no nothing.

Similar experience for buying the guild bank.  Nothing's put in your face as to the establishment or maintenance or best practices for maintaining the bank.

I appreciate your responses.  I also appreciate @Jdast and @RikuvonDrake and their response before the team joined in  (a tip of the hat to @JoeStramaglia as well).   I had a pretty good idea what was going on.  I also saw several posts that really did pose some legitimate questions  (I'm not here to judge those questions nor the motives behind them).   Soooo  I thought I'd throw some questions out there of my own.  (Hoping that we could get some good answers).  

Were those answers what everyone wanted?  Maybe ... then again perhaps not!

IN any case I'm not certain that the steps that WERE taken were conclusively the right answer.  BUT I can say that at least some steps are being taken to help solve some of the issues facing the economy.  That debate will unquestionably continue on for a while now.  It is unlikely that anything I offer on that subject will add anything of significance (please see any one of SEVERAL rather lengthy threads on that topic).

That said ... again I appreciate your answers and the time you have invested in them!

[xordevoreaux]

3 hours ago, Eldrenath said:

I mean...everyone agreed the inflation was a massive problems. Months and months and months of complaining about inflation. Then they introduced the first round of changes a couple months ago, and even though they said this was just a first step and there would be more, everyone complained saying the changes were stupid and wouldn't have any impact. 

 

So now, they actually implement deeper changes--which the community spent MONTHS begging for--and now they get slammed for doing that too. 

Because these changes are equally stupid.