Make the game harder during class stories

[felleto]

7 minutes ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

In my experience when i had to tech fragment on different servers things like that only happened when the dps doing less damage than the tank began pointing fingers to other people. So then someone says parse numbers and are labeled "toxic", when it was the person pointing fingers in the first place "toxic"

Once i was even being "taught" how to play my main class because in his eyes i was doing wrong by someone that i was doing 3 almost 4 times more damage than him on the same class, i was humoring him by going along with it but someone jumped and said i was doing 4 times more damage than him and he didn't know what he was talking about, and he began complaining that the other person was toxic because he proved him wrong.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with some unpleasant people. In my experience this hasn't been the norm. New players I have met who want to take that step further in learning the game are willing to admit mistakes and learn from other players. I think it's interesting to see how an activity that is essentially cooperative (fps and ops) has become so competitive (worthy of its own post). 

There will always be people that look for ways to prove they are better (even in videogames). Even if the are completely delusional (like the case you narrated). This problem is so deeply rooted in gaming nowadays that I honestly I have no clue if there is a way to address this (or even if it should be addressed). It's just part of human nature to look for ways to overcome difficulties and like @DeannaVoyager said, unpleasant people will just exist no matter where. 

[Darcmoon]

45 minutes ago, Spikanor said:

i think its not that hard to find the right spot since if you keep messing with this like the difficulty then its become worse and only more worse.

i have 2 diffrend chars 1 is level 35 and has compleet all 3 chapters from there class story and that was from the old time.

my newer chars are level 75 or so all when there compleet all the 3 chapters from the class story.

what there have done is remove most off the quest's in the game, also boost the exp rewards like crazy from missions.

when in other game's there not do things like that at some point to make it easyer for new players.

I have a hard time believing that you finished all three class chapters at 35.  In part due to the fact you need to be at least 32(?) or so just to go to the surface of Quesh. Even back at launch you should have gotten more than 3 levels even just doing the class quests.  Also, how did you beat the final boss in your class story?  
 

They haven’t removed most of the quests.  They have removed some but not most.  I still do most of the side quests partially for the occasional companion influence but mostly because I enjoy it. 
 

Most MMOs have a point where they make leveling easier/faster in some way, shape, or form because players want to get to max level faster for a variety of reasons.  

[Spikanor]

3 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

I have a hard time believing that you finished all three class chapters at 35.  In part due to the fact you need to be at least 32(?) or so just to go to the surface of Quesh. Even back at launch you should have gotten more than 3 levels even just doing the class quests.  Also, how did you beat the final boss in your class story?

i have think mix 2 chars with each other since from the old day's more i think i have mix my level 50 sith worrier with my level 35 jedi shadow since i have switch the 2 name's with each other before the 7.0 expension to have on both side's more a close family name by the same side i have done.

so my stupid mistake to mix the 2 chars with each other since i have forget there name's have been switch from side.

 

3 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

They haven’t removed most of the quests.  They have removed some but not most.  I still do most of the side quests partially for the occasional companion influence but mostly because I enjoy it. 

not forget some quest's have been short like on tatooine planet mission.

3 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

Most MMOs have a point where they make leveling easier/faster in some way, shape, or form because players want to get to max level faster for a variety of reasons.

but other MMOs you still learn the basic's the hard way and trust me that in SWTOR that type basic's are gone and new players not learn then and get in trouble when there do other things.

i have see a lot off players i have help with heroic missions that where there got there trouble is always the same thing there not have learn in the story line's at all.

thats about gearing up there never ever have hear about adept gear sets,mod's and higher color crystals there can buy on the GTN.

since there use the basic green/blu gear sets and lowst level of color crystal the weapon has basic more.

since there can compleet the story line's with that type set's there never have ever learn to gear up to compleet things.

in the old day's it was diffrend if you got trouble with a boss or mission then you upgrade your gear and weapon and look for better versions to beat that type boss in the story line or boss.

then you learn about the adept gear and weapons sets and learn about mods that make you much stronger then the basic green gear crap from npc's or compleet missions.

there are MMOs that have this type learning in there game still and not have chance that the player learns the game the hard way by gearing up if you cant tank it or defeat it that is the hard way each player most learn in any MMO to become stronger and learn more about the game.

if you are level 60 and cant compleet some heroic's solo then you have screw it good up with learning about gearing up since a lot of heroic's are good to do solo if you have good gear and have learn it.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Spikanor

[Darcmoon]

2 hours ago, Spikanor said:

i have think mix 2 chars with each other since from the old day's more i think i have mix my level 50 sith worrier with my level 35 jedi shadow since i have switch the 2 name's with each other before the 7.0 expension to have on both side's more a close family name by the same side i have done.

so my stupid mistake to mix the 2 chars with each other since i have forget there name's have been switch from side.

I fully understand mixing up toons.  I’ve done that more than once myself. 

 

2 hours ago, Spikanor said:

not forget some quest's have been short like on tatooine planet mission.

Yea, the Tatooine one got shortened.  I’d prefer it was back like the original but you are correct that they have modified some of them. 

 

2 hours ago, Spikanor said:

but other MMOs you still learn the basic's the hard way and trust me that in SWTOR that type basic's are gone and new players not learn then and get in trouble when there do other things.

i have see a lot off players i have help with heroic missions that where there got there trouble is always the same thing there not have learn in the story line's at all.

thats about gearing up there never ever have hear about adept gear sets,mod's and higher color crystals there can buy on the GTN.

since there use the basic green/blu gear sets and lowst level of color crystal the weapon has basic more.

since there can compleet the story line's with that type set's there never have ever learn to gear up to compleet things.

in the old day's it was diffrend if you got trouble with a boss or mission then you upgrade your gear and weapon and look for better versions to beat that type boss in the story line or boss.

then you learn about the adept gear and weapons sets and learn about mods that make you much stronger then the basic green gear crap from npc's or compleet missions.

there are MMOs that have this type learning in there game still and not have chance that the player learns the game the hard way by gearing up if you cant tank it or defeat it that is the hard way each player most learn in any MMO to become stronger and learn more about the game.

if you are level 60 and cant compleet some heroic's solo then you have screw it good up with learning about gearing up since a lot of heroic's are good to do solo if you have good gear and have learn it.

Even other MMOs have gotten to the point where you can get to max level without learning those things.  I won’t say every one since there are many I’ve never tried. SWTOR is far from being unusual in that however. Even at launch, people didn’t understand gearing up. Mods were intro like they still are with the origin weapon you get during the starter planet class story.  Even then they never really explained crystals.  You had to go find the info. It’s something I’ve thought needed to be explained better overall. 
 

Even now if you have problems you need to upgrade your gear it’s just not as important now. The blue gear you get while leveling is at least as good as blue mods are.  When you consider how fast leveling is now, mods are often a waste of credits to try to keep up to date.  I’ll also grant that level synch plays a big part of that. Mods really aren’t a requirement until end game.  There are also some heroics that are not tuned correctly.  The mobs seem to do more damage they should or the comp just doesn’t heal correctly in there.  

[felleto]

Man we had to gear our companions and do you remember how long if took to get reputation with them. I had a couple of good companions to do crafting with and they took around 45 minutes to complete gathering missions. That's what's up.

[arunav]

Return the game to 1.0-3.x leveling difficulty, with a corresponding adjustment of skill trees and what abilities players have in their toolkits, as an option. 

I don't know how this could be implemented, if it's possible to have a seperate instance that can accomodate this, or if it would need to be on its own server. 

Either way, I also don't enjoy leveling characters now, because the experience is so boring compared to how it used to be. 

There's no reason a class story chapter boss should die as easily as a normal elite somewhere in the open world. Those fights used to have mechanics in them, you sometimes needed to upgrade your companion's gear for them (when companions still had gear), and, in general, the leveling experience used to teach the player the basic aspects of how to play SWTOR (rotations, how to interrupt, how to CC, when to use a med pack, how to manage a companion, etc). This simply hasn't been the case for years now, and it's yet another choice by the current team that has made the game worse. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by arunav

[denavin]

I play this game to have FUN....
NOT to increase my STRESS LEVEL!

Make the game easier.
Being DEAD all the time,
IS NOT FUN!

 

[Stradlin]

1 hour ago, denavin said:

I play this game to have FUN....
NOT to increase my STRESS LEVEL!

Make the game easier.
Being DEAD all the time,
IS NOT FUN!

 

On the other hand.. story where nothing in gameplay requires anything isn't very fun for everybody either. It is ridiculous to listen jedi masters and other talking NPC heads celebrate my epic heroism, when every single fight is more or less the same 15 second faceroll. Like..you don't even get the opportunity to learn the game during class stories. You do not have the time to figure out any kind of a full rotation, ancient sith lords and force ghosts die long before that. You have defensive abilities, means to avoid and escape..but you don't get to see how important they can be in practice, since nothing really  hurts or kills you.

 

 

In somewhat full seriousness, succesfully logging in  to SWTOR is more unforgiving than any boss fight you encounter in story. You need to get your password and authenticator# right. Latter even has a cruel 30 second  time limit,fail, and you have to try again. Seriously, name one boss fight in all of swtor story where failure to press 6 number keys in correct order within 30 seconds would lead to a failure.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Stradlin

[Spikanor]

9 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

Yea, the Tatooine one got shortened.  I’d prefer it was back like the original but you are correct that they have modified some of them. 

i like the original also since it give's you a challance to fight against a horde zombie's enemy's and have almost no time to rest what is fun and good to have a challance here and there.

 

9 hours ago, felleto said:

Man we had to gear our companions

that part i remember really good the most pain the crap thing you need to do is buy a lot of mods for your self and for your companions lucky that part has become what easyer.

 

9 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

Even other MMOs have gotten to the point where you can get to max level without learning those things.  I won’t say every one since there are many I’ve never tried. SWTOR is far from being unusual in that however. Even at launch, people didn’t understand gearing up. Mods were intro like they still are with the origin weapon you get during the starter planet class story.  Even then they never really explained crystals.  You had to go find the info. It’s something I’ve thought needed to be explained better overall.

but if you can compleet all 3 the class chapters with basic gear only then it has become super easy more to compleet the story line more.

since i remember good that at some points in some class stroy you need to gear up to adeptice gear and weapons since you cant beat it with normal gear only.

and that was more the boss fight's from chapter 3 where you learn it the hard way if you gear is crap or not.

if people cant compleet a heroic 2 or so on alderaan solo and there are lvl 60 then something is wrong more with the gear for sure since all the heroic's 2+ are easy to do solo only you need good gear and thats the mistake most people make since there think i have compleet the class story with this gear so then is something like that also easy to do solo when there are that high.

1 hour ago, denavin said:

I play this game to have FUN....
NOT to increase my STRESS LEVEL!

Make the game easier.
Being DEAD all the time,
IS NOT FUN!

i play also for the fun this game but i hate it if you learn notting about it and you can do things in less then few sec's then its getting bored fast since people are thinking its to easy there is no challance at all.

i think most of the time's you can better let the companion you have do the work then your self more since if you do it its done in few sec's so thats fun compleet things in few sec's and learn compleet notting.

and this is now one of the reasons why a lot off high level strong people that run opp's or vetran flashpoints never take random people with then since there have learn most of the time's compleet notting in the story line's contant since its to easy and there is almost notting to learn.

and then people complain on the forums that nobody is going to take then to veteran flashpoints or opps since its always the same people i can understand really good why there keep runing it with the same group of players.

 

9 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

Even now if you have problems you need to upgrade your gear it’s just not as important now. The blue gear you get while leveling is at least as good as blue mods are.  When you consider how fast leveling is now, mods are often a waste of credits to try to keep up to date.  I’ll also grant that level synch plays a big part of that. Mods really aren’t a requirement until end game.  There are also some heroics that are not tuned correctly.  The mobs seem to do more damage they should or the comp just doesn’t heal correctly in there.

what is the end game since the last expension the end game gearing has become a compleet mess since you need to do PVP,opps,flashpoints to earn the items you need to gear up so thats not going to work and there force you to do it.

i still use the level 75 mods since i not going to do with the new gear stuff since i hate it to do pvp and not like opps.

 

[Shayddow]

Quote

Being DEAD all the time,
IS NOT FUN!

I was reminded of this when I took a 32nd level toon to Mek-sha Pub side to complete the Nightlife quest line. Died about 6 times trying to get to the NPC that you talk to.

Nightlife quest the first time they had Mek-sha they BOOSTED you. With the nerf to stealth, it's suicide pub-side for any character under 70 or so. (Imp side you can get to the NPC without encountering any enemies, so you just have to make the right decision. Pub-side you can't.  Between gear repair (I had to pay 9,000 credits, PLUS going to mek-sha costs 5,000 - it is just not worth it.

[OlBuzzard]

8 hours ago, denavin said:

I play this game to have FUN....
NOT to increase my STRESS LEVEL!

Make the game easier.
Being DEAD all the time,
IS NOT FUN!

 

I can appreciate how you feel.  IMO this is why it is important to have content available for a wider audience. 

Additional thoughts:  I know that not everyone appreciates the wagon wheel idea ... but it could work a lot easier than attempting to have multi-level programming complied into every major aspect of the game.  I also understand that even the base level of the game (the story itself) needs a certain amount of challenge to it as well.  I thought that "Showdown on Ruhnuk was a step in the right direction.  Not perfect ... but definitely a good step in the right direction.

Edit:  IMO this should give people a lot more options when playing the game.  The better the options ... the more likely players will keep playing SWTOR.  IMO ... that should be the real goal.

Edited August 1, 2023 by OlBuzzard

[Rujopetteri]

I read through this thread during the past couple of days and i'm baffled.

To summarize this thread: There's 2-3 people in the thread who want to increase difficulty for story content but not only the story instances, all world encounters as well. And these 2-3 folks ferociously want to force this increase in difficulty for everyone .

The rest of the people in this thread seem to think that the current difficulty is ok, but a majority of them thinks that adding an option to make stuff harder would be a good thing. Maybe in similar fashion as it was done with KotFE and KotET.

So help me understand why those 2-3 people want to force everyone to play the game like they want? What on earth could be the benefit for that?

I also saw some of the abovementioned people saying that people left the game after the lauch because it was too easy or because there was not enough end game and that just a load of BS.

I started at launch with a bunch of IRL friends. All but 2 of them quit the game withing the first 2-3 months way before any of them was anywhere close to end game. None of them was SW fan so the lore and stories weren't that important to them.

The ones who stayed did so mostly because Star Wars.

All of the friends who quit stated the biggest reason for quitting to be the absolute grindfest that the leveling was at the time. Not the difficulty. The fact that unless you can sneak, you have to kill loads and loads and loads of thrash in every single story instance to get to the mission object at the end. It's not difficult but it's incredibly boring. And even now all the newer content in swtor still works this way. Some newer stuff you can't even sneak through because there's scripted ambushes every 5 meters.

If those "mechanics" are left alone while increasing the difficulty to make said things take even more time to clear that would most definitely lead to mass exodus of story/casual players.

And like others have already mentioned, there's a huge difference between a veteran player with fully unlocked legacy perks and datacrons etc and a totally new player especially on f2p account. A new player with a new account w/o legacy unlocks will never one-shot anything and will actually be fighting the regular trash groups for minutes at a time while a vet with a naked toon and fully unlocked legacy will kill whole groups of trash in one AoE hit.

So I'm definitely in the "Give us the OPTION to increase story difficulty but DON'T FORCE it for everyone" -group.

[juliushorst]

6 hours ago, Rujopetteri said:

To summarize this thread: There's 2-3 people in the thread who want to increase difficulty for story content but not only the story instances, all world encounters as well. And these 2-3 folks ferociously want to force this increase in difficulty for everyone .

I'm pretty certain that 7.0 was such a failure partially because the devs for some reason decided to listen to people like them. I suggested they should make additional harder instance if there is a demand for such content - if I was to guess I'd say this instance would be emptier than PVP instances are now (Veteran and Master chapters achievements are at the very bottom in Steam statistics) but please don't force this on me.

[SteveTheCynic]

16 hours ago, Rujopetteri said:

What on earth could be the benefit for that?

It might seem strange, but there *is* a benefit in some ways: people who *get* to max level must learn how to play their combat style correctly in order to get there.

It's a rather thin and weedy benefit, and definitely not worth seeking, but it is a benefit.  For folks who feel that group-content end-game is the only thing that matters in an MMORPG, it's a strong benefit, even though the number of people who get there would be hugely reduced.

[elimatorxv]

On 8/1/2023 at 1:55 AM, felleto said:

Man we had to gear our companions and do you remember how long if took to get reputation with them. I had a couple of good companions to do crafting with and they took around 45 minutes to complete gathering missions. That's what's up.

i remember those good old days, man it was fun, trooper was def the best one back then ✌️

[felleto]

2 minutes ago, elimatorxv said:

i remember those good old days, man it was fun, trooper was def the best one back then ✌️

It sure had its downfalls but I myself like the gearing of companions, how they had unique skills and playstyles, made them feel like actual companions in your adventures instead of the copy paste skins they are nowadays. I couldn't wait to get a new companion and check if it was a dps, tank or healer or what kind of choice they liked so I could max their rep and access new parts of their storyline. And to get to the end and unlock that legacy unlock with each one was a true journey (and there was a short music queue that played once you did making that feel very cool)

Idk who asked for these simplifications but I was never a fan. And some companions still attain some skills so what gives??? Like Tharan Cedrax still has Holiday as a crowd control ability, so why not keep the other skills... Makes no sense.

[Toraak]

18 minutes ago, felleto said:

It sure had its downfalls but I myself like the gearing of companions, how they had unique skills and playstyles, made them feel like actual companions in your adventures instead of the copy paste skins they are nowadays. I couldn't wait to get a new companion and check if it was a dps, tank or healer or what kind of choice they liked so I could max their rep and access new parts of their storyline. And to get to the end and unlock that legacy unlock with each one was a true journey (and there was a short music queue that played once you did making that feel very cool)

Idk who asked for these simplifications but I was never a fan. And some companions still attain some skills so what gives??? Like Tharan Cedrax still has Holiday as a crowd control ability, so why not keep the other skills... Makes no sense.

I hated having to gear out my companions back then. It was nothing more then a complete annoyance. 

[felleto]

14 minutes ago, Toraak said:

I hated having to gear out my companions back then. It was nothing more then a complete annoyance. 

To each its own am I right haha.

I liked it because it reminded me of mass effect.

[Rujopetteri]

4 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

It might seem strange, but there *is* a benefit in some ways: people who *get* to max level must learn how to play their combat style correctly in order to get there.

It's a rather thin and weedy benefit, and definitely not worth seeking, but it is a benefit.  For folks who feel that group-content end-game is the only thing that matters in an MMORPG, it's a strong benefit, even though the number of people who get there would be hugely reduced.

That being a benefit completely depends on how the difficulty increase is done.

If the difficulty/challenge is increased by adding interesting gameplay mechanics etc, then yes, people will learn their stuff better.

HOWEVER almost every time something like this is implemented (in other mmo's as well, not just swtor) it's done by adding hitpoints on enemies to make them bullet sponges, increasing incoming damage and adding more groups of trash mobs that are unavoidable by sneaking etc. That doesn't make it at all difficult, just boring, tedious and stupid and everything just takes more time. For some it might be fun the first time, but on your umpteenth alt it's just not worth it.

And truth is, from all the IRL friends that i started this game with at launch, almost all of them left BECAUSE the game was super grindy. Two of them stayed for a bit because it's SW, but for the past 8+ years i've been alone in our guild.

[xxSHOONYxx]

On 7/31/2023 at 1:27 PM, felleto said:

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with some unpleasant people. In my experience this hasn't been the norm. New players I have met who want to take that step further in learning the game are willing to admit mistakes and learn from other players. I think it's interesting to see how an activity that is essentially cooperative (fps and ops) has become so competitive (worthy of its own post). 

Hardly a bad experience, it was quite funny. I was just saying in my experience when players get into trouble is because their skills don't match their ego or their perception of their own skill. There are sometimes those mid level skill players that want to feel superior and to do so like to talk bad about their lesser in skill though

Edited August 2, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[xxSHOONYxx]

33 minutes ago, Rujopetteri said:

That being a benefit completely depends on how the difficulty increase is done.

If the difficulty/challenge is increased by adding interesting gameplay mechanics etc, then yes, people will learn their stuff better.

HOWEVER almost every time something like this is implemented (in other mmo's as well, not just swtor) it's done by adding hitpoints on enemies to make them bullet sponges, increasing incoming damage and adding more groups of trash mobs that are unavoidable by sneaking etc. That doesn't make it at all difficult, just boring, tedious and stupid and everything just takes more time. For some it might be fun the first time, but on your umpteenth alt it's just not worth it.

And truth is, from all the IRL friends that i started this game with at launch, almost all of them left BECAUSE the game was super grindy. Two of them stayed for a bit because it's SW, but for the past 8+ years i've been alone in our guild.

It took me longer to finish (and dreaded it) the ff14 story while skipping every cutscene and conversation text than finishing the vanilla class story at launch, yet one game is one of if not the most popular mmo right now and have an easy transition into endgame because the journey taught them to be decent, while the other is dwindling while having the SW tag and when players reach endgame their skill matches a npc on the starting world. 
Easy difficulty never equals to success in a game. There are a lot of others points while leveling and engame which swtor quite frankly just fails at and improving them would mean to alienate the existing playerbase of the game (because the rest already left) so i don't see them doing it nor the game to have a huge influx of players because of it

[Spikanor]

17 hours ago, juliushorst said:

I'm pretty certain that 7.0 was such a failure partially because the devs for some reason decided to listen to people like them. I suggested they should make additional harder instance if there is a demand for such content - if I was to guess I'd say this instance would be emptier than PVP instances are now (Veteran and Master chapters achievements are at the very bottom in Steam statistics) but please don't force this on me.

if you look is good the game has become only easyer and easyer by each update.

first you need to pay credits for you skills to get it after that there make it free and now you have a compleet new skill tree where skill trainers are no needed anymore.

first you need to upgrade you gear good that after some time the old gear you are using is not going to help anymore since its to weak. now you can compleet a big part of the story line with only green/blue NPC armor parts/weapons so whats the point of upgrading your gear if its not that inportent anymore.

then you have the mass exp boost you get from compleeting story line missions and side missions in the old day's you are level 10 before you leave the starting planet and its the same with the other planets that you leave that planet after you reach the level to enter the next planet you most go. nowaday's you are all level 15 or 20 before you leave the starting planet all so its at somepoint no fun if you are that much overlevel always.

[juliushorst]

3 hours ago, Spikanor said:

if you look is good the game has become only easyer and easyer by each update.

I meant changes to level synch on old planets and generally how level synch works.

[Spikanor]

1 hour ago, juliushorst said:

I meant changes to level synch on old planets and generally how level synch works.

more like that the story line fights where you enter alone and only that type class or story can enter ( forgot how it was callt again i mean the red and green barriers)

that there return on that place only to there orginal levels again like that for both the sith class you fight again a lvl 50 end boss and not lvl 10 end boss so that it have the stats also from a lvl 50 end boss and not from a lvl 10 one?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Spikanor

[juliushorst]

4 minutes ago, Spikanor said:

that there return on that place only to there orginal levels again like that for both the sith class you fight again a lvl 50 end boss and not lvl 10 end boss so that it have the stats also from a lvl 50 end boss and not from a lvl 10 one?

No, this would be fine. They just "adjusted" level sync so lvl 80 geared character was synched to be weaker than a character on planet-appropriate level in story gear.