Make the game harder during class stories

[Toraak]

7 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

They get more content drops because they have more players and expect a return on investment.  

So the actual question is why do those games build up larger audiences?  Answer that, then act on those insights and you can have all the content you want.  Not before, and not doing the same things that did not work.

We are trying to explain it to you.

Because they get more end game content then we do. It has nothing to do with the leveling experience. Those are all MMO's, and the majority of MMO players are there for endgame content. 

 

If you want challenge, the story isn't what your looking for. MM Ops, and PvP are.

[DWho]

31 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

So the actual question is why do those games build up larger audiences?  Answer that, then act on those insights and you can have all the content you want.  Not before, and not doing the same things that did not work.

By far the vast majority of players left SWTOR before 3.0 which was when the game was first simplified and XP gains increased. Their leaving had nothing to do with leveling difficulty because they left long before anything changed.

Edit: later players left because Bioware kept ricocheting from one type of content to a different content instead of providing everyone with something.

Edited May 30, 2023 by DWho

[Diamaht]

42 minutes ago, Toraak said:

Because they get more end game content then we do. It has nothing to do with the leveling experience. Those are all MMO's, and the majority of MMO players are there for endgame content. 

 

If you want challenge, the story isn't what your looking for. MM Ops, and PvP are.

Rationalization won't help anything.  If you think companies spend 10s of millions just hoping that it will return then you are a child.

They set up their game for wide appeal so they can justify going to their management to ask for the funds, just like in all other large companies.  Prior success dictates what you can ask for.  

You guys keep talking about how they can or should spend money, but it's all in reverse.  Of course they are not honest arguments based on any form of logic.  They are rationalizations to make the bad thing and the bad people go away.

Making the existing game more enjoyable is something that can be done with existing funds.  If the changes work they can grow from there.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Diamaht

[Toraak]

4 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

Rationalization won't help anything.  If you think companies spend 10s of millions just hoping that it will return then you are a child.

They set up their game for wide appeal so they can justify going to their management to ask for the funds, just like in all other large companies.  Prior success dictates what you can ask for.  

You guys keep talking about how they can or should spend money, but it's all in reverse.  Of course they are not honest arguments based on any form of logic.  They are rationalizations to make the bad thing and the bad people go away.

Making the existing game more enjoyable is something that can be done with existing funds.  If the changes work they can grow from there.

And neither is the argument that people left because of the difficulty of the leveling process. People have left for many reason's over the years, but I've have never in all my time playing Swtor (since early access) seen anyone claim they left because of the leveling experience.

 

I've seen plenty of people leave due to.

1) Lack of End game content (or slow release of) regardless if it's PvP, GSF, FP, or Operations.

2) The constant changing of the gearing system. Each system lost players for various reason's.

3) The slow drip of story content.

 

The other MMO's that were listed get far more content, which is why they keep far more players. This game is still surviving because it's Star Wars.

 

 

[Diamaht]

2 minutes ago, Toraak said:

And neither is the argument that people left because of the difficulty of the leveling process. People have left for many reason's over the years, but I've have never in all my time playing Swtor (since early access) seen anyone claim they left because of the leveling experience.

 

I've seen plenty of people leave due to.

1) Lack of End game content (or slow release of) regardless if it's PvP, GSF, FP, or Operations.

2) The constant changing of the gearing system. Each system lost players for various reason's.

3) The slow drip of story content.

 

The other MMO's that were listed get far more content, which is why they keep far more players. This game is still surviving because it's Star Wars.

 

 

We are not making this up.   Here and on other formats and over many years are players telling you this is an issue.  

Is there like a form we need to fill out in order for it to count as you having heard of such a thing?

[DWho]

5 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

We are not making this up.   Here and on other formats and over many years are players telling you this is an issue.  

Is there like a form we need to fill out in order for it to count as you having heard of such a thing?

Apparently they forgot to add it to their reasons for canceling their subs when they quit because Bioware has done nothing that would indicate large numbers of players quit because the leveling content was too easy. They have only made it easier (including with 7.0). In 7.0 they had mobs do more damage but turned right around and gave everyone more health by uncapping the endurance stat (along with all the other ones that increased the damage players did)

[Diamaht]

7 minutes ago, DWho said:

Apparently they forgot to add it to their reasons for canceling their subs when they quit because Bioware has done nothing that would indicate large numbers of players quit because the leveling content was too easy. They have only made it easier (including with 7.0). In 7.0 they had mobs do more damage but turned right around and gave everyone more health by uncapping the endurance stat (along with all the other ones that increased the damage players did)

If I remember correctly, they nerfed companions then mostly reversed it when everone cried.

Also, you realize that you are reduced to using the hated (by most of you) 7.0 to attempt to salvge your argument? That's amusing and ironic.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Diamaht

[Toraak]

Just now, Diamaht said:

If I remember correctly, they nerfed companions then mostly reversed it when everone cried.

Also, you realize that you are reduced to using the hated (by most of you) 7.0 to attempt to salvge your argument? That's amusing and ironic.

And that doesn't tell you how this playerbase likes the story?

 

It clearly tells me that they don't want things to be massively challenging when leveling if BW had so many people complaining when they nerfed the companions.

[Goreshaga]

37 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

Making the existing game more enjoyable is something that can be done with existing funds.  If the changes work they can grow from there.

So by that logic, you should agree that giving OPTIONS should be the way to go, that way everybody's happy. People who want it harder could choose a higher difficulty while players who just want to go through the story and don't seek any challenge, or the ones who only want to breeze through it to get to endgame faster could keep it the way it is.

But, if they change it to please people who want it more difficult, then they won't please people who want to keep it the way it is now.

[Toraak]

4 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

So by that logic, you should agree that giving OPTIONS should be the way to go, that way everybody's happy. People who want it harder could choose a higher difficulty while players who just want to go through the story and don't seek any challenge, or the ones who only want to breeze through it to get to endgame faster could keep it the way it is.

But, if they change it to please people who want it more difficult, then they won't please people who want to keep it the way it is now.

100% this.

[DWho]

13 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

If I remember correctly, they nerfed companions then mostly reversed it when everone cried.

Also, you realize that you are reduced to using the hated (by most of you) 7.0 to attempt to salvge your argument? That's amusing and ironic.

Things they have done to make the game easier

1) increased xp gain rate

2) increased companion strength (the complaints were about performance in heroics no leveling play)

3) increased xp rate a second time

4) reduced mob strength in heroics so they could be soloed

5) increased gear ratings

6) added level sync (which allowed very high level characters to stomp low level NPCs and get rewarded for it)

7) Changed level sync to allow even higher levels of stats with no cap.

in no particular order

There's more but we can stop there. Those are the highlights

7.0 was hated because it was a massive disappointment for a 10 year anniversary update after all the build-up not to mention being delayed and not fixing any of the bugs pointed out in the first or second PTS testing.

Edited May 30, 2023 by DWho

[Diamaht]

8 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

So by that logic, you should agree that giving OPTIONS should be the way to go, that way everybody's happy. People who want it harder could choose a higher difficulty while players who just want to go through the story and don't seek any challenge, or the ones who only want to breeze through it to get to endgame faster could keep it the way it is.

But, if they change it to please people who want it more difficult, then they won't please people who want to keep it the way it is now.

That is how it is now and the population decreases.

So is it working?

1 minute ago, DWho said:

Things they have done to make the game easier

1) increased xp gain rate

2) increased companion strength (the complaints were about performance in heroics no leveling play)

3) increased xp rate a second time

4) reduced mob strength in heroics so they could be soloed

5) increased gear ratings

6) added level sync (which allowed very high level characters to stomp low level NPCs and get rewarded for it)

7) Changed level sync to allow even higher levels of stats with no cap.

There's more but we can stop there. Those are the highlights

7.0 was hated because it was a massive disappointment for a 10 year anniversary update after all the build-up not to mention being delayed and not fixing any of the bugs pointed out in the first or second PTS testing.

And with each of these changes the population went down, so were they good changes?

Have a look at the scoreboard.

[DWho]

Just now, Diamaht said:

That is how it is now and the population decreases.

So is it working?

And with each of these changes the population went down, so were they good changes?

Have a look at the scoreboard.

The reason people left the game were:

1) It wasn't Star Wars Galaxies 2 (not open world enough for them)

2) It wasn't KotOR 3 (had MMO elements they didn't like)

3) leveling was a massive grind (lots of stopping your story to farm trash mobs to be able to continue your story)

4) players got to end game faster than Bioware expected and even though they launched two more Operations over a couple months, those players had already left.

There is zero evidence that difficulty of leveling had anything to do with the declines. I guess we could say that the version of the game increasing caused players to leave since the population generally declined as the game revision number increased. Commonality is not causality.

During KotFE and KotET leveling was at its easiest and yet the number of subs increased significantly before falling off when Bioware couldn't keep up the content pace.

[Toraak]

3 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

That is how it is now and the population decreases.

So is it working?

And with each of these changes the population went down, so were they good changes?

Have a look at the scoreboard.

Did I ever say they were good, because I'm 100% sure I didn't.

We need more new content in this game plain and simple. If BW wants it's population to remain the same, that is where it's focus must be. Giving an option for higher difficulty isn't a bad thing, but making it more difficult for everyone most certainly is.

 

Personally I'd rather have BW put it's funding into new content rather then almost 11 year old story content difficulty, but If they want to add an option for higher difficulty, I'm fine with that. An option only, not forced. I'd even try out that option on an alt honestly.

[xxSHOONYxx]

7 minutes ago, DWho said:

During KotFE and KotET leveling was at its easiest and yet the number of subs increased significantly before falling off when Bioware couldn't keep up the content pace.

Numbers of subs increased because it was the timeframe a month before the force awakens released (plus a bit of every expansion bringing back some old players, especially since that was the first expansion that didn't requiere to be bought), everyone was hyped about star wars and they needed their star wars fix. Yet with all that star wars hype the game could barely maintain the new inflow of players. KotFE and KotET was a failure, another life line that swtor did not take advantage of.  
Game grew in 6.0 too, but because of covid not because the game itself. Game also increases the population in may especially 4th of may. 

Leaving the expansions that always bring some people back, this game grows because of outside factors and the player retention from those factors was never capitalized into actually growing the game and delivering more repeatable content to keep their players engaged. 
 

[casirabit]

17 hours ago, Diamaht said:

It affects you negatively.  Its a basic game realty that would go a very long way to bringing back players.  

Do the same thing, get the same result.

I think what is really needed, once the economy and server host changes are in place, is a new server with more combat difficulty.

Edit:  What you guys are not acknowledging is that players do not enjoy self sabotage.  It's what you want people to accept so that you don't have to suffer through any changes, but it's not a viable way to attract players to the game.  Its actually exclusively a way to repel.

No, the reason I am not playing much anymore, is not because of how easy/hard the story is, it is because the story has gotten shorter and shorter and therefore boring.  I have been playing FFX and damn the story there makes me cry, something the story here hasn't done for a long time.   It has nothing to do with how easy or hard the story is, it is because the writers do not seem to care about the story they are writing.

[Diamaht]

34 minutes ago, DWho said:

The reason people left the game were:

1) It wasn't Star Wars Galaxies 2 (not open world enough for them)

2) It wasn't KotOR 3 (had MMO elements they didn't like)

3) leveling was a massive grind (lots of stopping your story to farm trash mobs to be able to continue your story)

4) players got to end game faster than Bioware expected and even though they launched two more Operations over a couple months, those players had already left.

There is zero evidence that difficulty of leveling had anything to do with the declines. I guess we could say that the version of the game increasing caused players to leave since the population generally declined as the game revision number increased. Commonality is not causality.

During KotFE and KotET leveling was at its easiest and yet the number of subs increased significantly before falling off when Bioware couldn't keep up the content pace.

And what qualification do you have for any of this?

I can tell you first hand that none of that is true.  We've happily provided references and examples.  We've also been consistent with what we are claiming and what we are arguing.

You think of and fling against the wall something entirely different with every post, hoping something, anything will stick.

It doesn't add credit to any of your arguements

[casirabit]

1 minute ago, Diamaht said:

And what qualification do you have for any of this?

I can tell you first hand that none of that is true.  We've happily provided references and examples.  We've also been consistent with what we are claiming and what we are arguing.

You think of and fling against the wall something entirely different with every post, hoping something, anything will stick.

It doesn't add credit to any of your arguments

The first item on his list, I can tell, is correct. I came from SWG and everyone from SWG was quite disappointed with how this game was.  They liked the way SWG was and were extremely disappointed in how SWTOR was set up.  There were quite a few problems that the individuals from SWG did not like in this game so yes that is true of the SWG players.  Even from the beginning, when SWG closed and the SWG players came to the forums here (before launch) they were requesting things from SWG and there was nothing that the player from SWG requested therefore they were disappointed and quite a few of them left right after launch because of it.

[Toraak]

14 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

And what qualification do you have for any of this?

I can tell you first hand that none of that is true.  We've happily provided references and examples.  We've also been consistent with what we are claiming and what we are arguing.

You think of and fling against the wall something entirely different with every post, hoping something, anything will stick.

It doesn't add credit to any of your arguements

I can also confirm Number 2. I was one of those players that was disappointed this game wasn't Kotor 3. While I stayed because I do play MMO's. I truthfully would rather have had an actual kotor 3 game over an MMO. The irony is I now only play this game for it's endgame content and not for the story at all. 80% of my game time is now spent doing Exclusively Galactic Starfighter, while the rest is spent doing Galactic Season's when it's out, with a rare Operation from time to time.

[OlBuzzard]

1 hour ago, Goreshaga said:

So by that logic, you should agree that giving OPTIONS should be the way to go, that way everybody's happy. People who want it harder could choose a higher difficulty while players who just want to go through the story and don't seek any challenge, or the ones who only want to breeze through it to get to endgame faster could keep it the way it is.

But, if they change it to please people who want it more difficult, then they won't please people who want to keep it the way it is now.

I support the idea of providing options for level of difficulties! 

[/two thumbs up]

[OlBuzzard]

41 minutes ago, casirabit said:

No, the reason I am not playing much anymore, is not because of how easy/hard the story is, it is because the story has gotten shorter and shorter and therefore boring.  I have been playing FFX and damn the story there makes me cry, something the story here hasn't done for a long time.   It has nothing to do with how easy or hard the story is, it is because the writers do not seem to care about the story they are writing.

I agree ..

AND additionally we have essentially lost a LOT more content wise / gearing system / companions (to list a few items of interest) .. than what we have gained.

GS is essentially lack-luster and just doesn't fill the gap as we once thought it might!

I hoped that by now (with the release of the Mando series) there might be a glimmer of hope coming.  BUT ... with the release of the latest GS series that glimmer turned to dust almost overnight!

This is SO frustrating!!!  Not much left to do but to allow my sub to fall by the wayside!  Why keep paying for a dead horse?

[Diamaht]

44 minutes ago, casirabit said:

The first item on his list, I can tell, is correct. I came from SWG and everyone from SWG was quite disappointed with how this game was.  They liked the way SWG was and were extremely disappointed in how SWTOR was...

 

30 minutes ago, Toraak said:

I can also confirm Number 2. I was one of those players that was disappointed this game wasn't Kotor 3.

So you're argument now, if I'm understanding correctly, is that millions of theme park mmo player's:

Number 1: got confused and thought this heavily marketed theme park mmo was actually going to be open world when they logged in.

Number 2: got confused and thought this heavily marketed theme park mmo was actually going to be a single player rpg when they logged in.

This is what we are saying?

You're going to need a second wall, unless your excuses and rationalizations can stick to each other, you're running out of room. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Diamaht

[Bigfallenstar]

49 minutes ago, casirabit said:

No, the reason I am not playing much anymore, is not because of how easy/hard the story is, it is because the story has gotten shorter and shorter and therefore boring.  I have been playing FFX and damn the story there makes me cry, something the story here hasn't done for a long time.   It has nothing to do with how easy or hard the story is, it is because the writers do not seem to care about the story they are writing.

So your reason for not being around much is because the story isn't some tear jerker like final fantasy? Why does it have to move you to tears for it not to be boring? You already know everything about your companions and what they like/dislike, their backstory and whatnot.  Just because there's none of those long, sunset goodbyes, team bonding, memorials, or knowing someone's entire backstory upon first meeting them that's ff is known for, makes the story boring? Are you expecting the writers to drop everything we're doing in the story to go on a picnic with x companion when there's a galaxy wide threat looming about?

[Goreshaga]

2 hours ago, Diamaht said:

And what qualification do you have for any of this?

I can tell you first hand that none of that is true.  We've happily provided references and examples.  We've also been consistent with what we are claiming and what we are arguing.

You think of and fling against the wall something entirely different with every post, hoping something, anything will stick.

It doesn't add credit to any of your arguements

I can say that point number 3 is why i left when i first started before 4.0.

The leveling was boring and far too grindy. It was "challenging" because i was constantly underleveled as i was F2P at the time, even when doing every quests, which was taking me completely out of the story, and because i had a companion that i had to gear and who was stuck on 1 role that wasn't necessarily the most fitting for the class i was playing. So i didn't finish even 1 class story before i decided that this game was just not for me and left, at the time with absolutely no intention of coming back.

It took 4.0 changing everything i didn't like, and a great deal of convincing from one of my friends for me to come back and give this game a second chance, and i've been there since then. And i can tell if the game was to revert back to something like it was prior to 4.0, i'd leave again, this time never to look back and never to come back, especially since that friend no longer plays (and it has nothing to do with the game being too easy, but with there not being enough new content for him)

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

13 hours ago, Stradlin said:

Sure, nobody here has any numbers like these. It can be difficult even for EA to figure this stuff out I'd imagine. Based on purely anecdotal experiences, it is a notable issue though. When it comes to pool of " friends who have tried old republic at some point", lack of difficulty def been a very common complaint. My real life brother being the  most recent victim to it.  "it'll get more difficult than this later on, right?" has pretty depressing answers. 

Well, perhaps that is in fact your experience. I just never came across anybody who ever said they're leaving the game or they left the game because the difficulty in the vanilla story lines is too easy.

So perhaps that accounts for our differences of opinion on this subject and why each of us thinks our course is correct.