Make the game harder during class stories

[Diamaht]

59 minutes ago, denavin said:

I don't agree for the same reasons I posted in another thread...

 

 

Its still a game though, that's the issue people have.  With any kind of game, you want to push against somthing and overcome it.  That doesn't mean it has to be massively difficult, it just means there needs to be the possibility of failure.  This holds true for all games; cards, chess, board games, dnd, not just video games.

People argue that you can self sabotage.  That feels cheep, it leaves a bad taste afterword and usually feels like you wasted your time.

Give me something, and I mean anything, that pushes against me and I'll enjoy my time playing this game.

Also its not what the game is "about", it's what it slowly got turned into.

[DWho]

42 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

People argue that you can self sabotage.  That feels cheep, it leaves a bad taste afterword and usually feels like you wasted your time.

The self-sabotage as you put it is mechanistically the same as making the game harder except that it impacts only those finding the game too easy. You have called for increasing the damage of the mobs. That is functionally equivalent to reducing your gear rating and companion strength. The difference between what you are suggesting and what others in the thread have suggested is that your suggestion impacts everyone else negatively while the optional approach allows people to play the game the "hard" way if they choose or go the easy route if they find it more fun and fun is what games are all about.

Edited May 29, 2023 by DWho

[elimatorxv]

*Make the storyline difficulty harder. 1

*Add new classes and races to play. 1

* Add new operations and PVP maps. 1

* Add new story content with more regularity. 10

* Increase options to fine tune the look of characters and companions.  10

*Add more companion story interactions and have additional romance interactions with LI Companions in future content. 10

* Make the player be able to pick the companions they want in the default storylines in future content instead of being forced to use a specific companion.   10

* Add a Premade quece and a Solo quece option for PVP. 10

* Fix bugs. 1

* Update crafting. 1

[Diamaht]

4 hours ago, DWho said:

The self-sabotage as you put it is mechanistically the same as making the game harder except that it impacts only those finding the game too easy. You have called for increasing the damage of the mobs. That is functionally equivalent to reducing your gear rating and companion strength. The difference between what you are suggesting and what others in the thread have suggested is that your suggestion impacts everyone else negatively while the optional approach allows people to play the game the "hard" way if they choose or go the easy route if they find it more fun and fun is what games are all about.

It affects you negatively.  Its a basic game realty that would go a very long way to bringing back players.  

Do the same thing, get the same result.

I think what is really needed, once the economy and server host changes are in place, is a new server with more combat difficulty.

Edit:  What you guys are not acknowledging is that players do not enjoy self sabotage.  It's what you want people to accept so that you don't have to suffer through any changes, but it's not a viable way to attract players to the game.  Its actually exclusively a way to repel.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Diamaht

[YodaUnrea]

Nah this game dont need class story hard mod. what this game needs is a steamline content release.

[Ardrossan]

1 hour ago, Diamaht said:

What you guys are not acknowledging is that players do not enjoy self sabotage.  It's what you want people to accept so that you don't have to suffer through any changes, but it's not a viable way to attract players to the game.  Its actually exclusively a way to repel.

Yes, I acknowledge that you want the best armor mods, be as overleveled as possible, with a rank 50 companion, and expect to still be challenged fighting Skavak. That is not this game. That has never been this game, even in the glorious 1.0 launch era you envision through rose-colored lens as a magical time of peak difficulty. It never happened like that. Overleveling would grey out your combat, the only difference between then and now is that you still get xp from what we'd have called greyed-out quests. That was the era when you could beat world bosses solo just by being sufficiently high level.

I'm done with this. Follow the advice offered or don't, it makes no difference to me. Good luck convincing bioware.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Ardrossan

[Diamaht]

9 minutes ago, Ardrossan said:

Yes, I acknowledge that you want the best armor mods, be as overleveled as possible, with a rank 50 companion, and expect to still be challenged fighting Skavak. That is not this game. That has never been this game, even in the glorious 1.0 launch era you envision through rose-colored lens as a magical time of peak difficulty. It never happened like that. Overleveling would grey out your combat, the only difference between then and now is that you still get xp from what we'd have called greyed-out quests. That was the era when you could beat world bosses solo just by being sufficiently high level.

I'm done with this. Follow the advice offered or don't, it makes no difference to me. Good luck convincing bioware.

 

Again you alter and pervert my argument because you don't like it.

Your like or dislike of the argument is irrelevant.  This is how people who play games, any kind of game, react to trivial content.  It's a major factor in the declining population over the years.

It astounds me how fervently you gate keepers vote against your own interests.  Making the game as a whole far more appealing to a larger audience, while costing you almost nothing, gets you the budget for all the things you want.

 

[Ardrossan]

17 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

Your like or dislike of the argument is irrelevant.  This is how people who play games, any kind of game, react to trivial content.  It's a major factor in the declining population over the years.

Citation please

17 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

It astounds me how fervently you gate keepers vote against your own interests.  Making the game as a whole far more appealing to a larger audience, while costing you almost nothing, gets you the budget for all the things you want.

You seem to be under a few misapprehensions. We don't 'vote' for anything. You made your pitch in a thread and assuming there's more than just a couple guys on the swtor forum saying it, they may or may not do something. Probably leaning on the side of not since they've avoided altering story missions for years. But who knows, maybe you got through. It's not my decision, and it's definitely not your decision.

Second, you have no basis to claim that game difficulty is a major factor in declining population, or indeed any factor whatsoever. You don't like it...but here you are anyway, weeks later, still complaining on the forum about it. Are you still paying for a sub? If so, why? Clearly game difficulty is not a deal-breaker for you. 

It costs not almost nothing, but absolutely nothing, to make suggestions. But you're not on the suggestions forum, you're on general discussion, because you think you're speaking some kind of universal truth about the game rather than "It would be nice if bioware did this" like the suggestions over there. 

Idk if you're getting this crucial point because you've never acknowledged it, but I'll say it one last time and then I'm done. If you do the things that have been suggested, you can make your own difficulty. It's not a perfect solution, but it might tide you over until bioware makes the necessary changes if they ever do that. Or you can do nothing, and continue to sulk, and continue to complain about players 'gatekeeping' and 'voting against your own interests'...all of which won't help you a jot in the actual gameplay you're so fervent to change. I made my choice a long time ago, do what you want, but enough with blaming players, we aren't responsible for what bioware chooses to prioritize.  

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

35 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

This is how people who play games, any kind of game, react to trivial content. 

Thanks for speaking for all gamers around the world.

Problem is, it's an objectively false statement.

I play games, that's not how react to "trivial content", in the case of this game, vanilla story content. And again, I have to point out here, that most of the people in this string don't agree with your perspective. Now, you're certainly entitled to feel that way, you have every right to your opinion and expressing it. What you don't have the right to do, however, is to speak for all gamers.

95% (ballpark) of the people in this game from hardcore raiders, to PVPers, to casuals, to newbies, most people in this game don't give a rat's ass about the level of difficulty in vanilla stories.

I've been in multiple raid groups, HM/NIM, I've done Ranked, Regs, you name it, I never heard anyone in those areas of the game biotch about how easy the vanilla story is.

35 minutes ago, Diamaht said:

It astounds me how fervently you gate keepers vote against your own interests.  Making the game as a whole far more appealing to a larger audience, while costing you almost nothing, gets you the budget for all the things you want.

I'm not voting against my own interests. I don't for a second think, besides for like the 3 of you any one much gives a rat's ass about how difficult the vanilla storyline is.

I don't think wasting the little resources they have and the limited manpower they have on making the kiddy-pool (vanilla) more difficult is in the best interests of the game, I think there are a lot more important things ,that would effect a lot more people, and make more players happy to spend those limited resources and manpower on.

'The game as a whole' IS NOT the vanillla story line. That's the beginning of the game, and just the beginning.

So are you saying that if they made the vanilla story lines more difficult EA would suddenly turn around and say "Hey Bioware, nice work making the beginners corner more difficult, here's an extra 2 million. Keep up the great work despite all those people casuals and newbies who are saying they don't want it more difficult. Cuz that's how you run a good business, you give in to the 5% and ignore the 95% of your client base."?

If the larger audience you referred to feels the way you do, why are there like only 2 people agreeing with you?

Dude, when people like us who have been playing the game a long time, it is hard for us to put ourselves in the position of what it's like to be new in the game, because that was a very long time ago for a lot us. You can't think of it from the perspective of a very experienced and knowledgble player, because people who are new to the game are neither of those things. And the vanilla story line is the first content in the game they will ever play.

I don't know why this is so difficult for some people to wrap their hands around.

Crawl. Walk. Run.

Crawl = Vanilla story line. Babies crawl. That's for the babies. That's where you get your feet wet, where you get familiar with the basics.

Walk = Post vanilla storylines, things like The Eteranal whateverthehell story line, Star Fortresses, Eternal Championship, Flashpoints.

That's for the kids and teens. The middle part.

Run = Raiding, PVP, Open world PVP, Dueling, Heroic Space Missions (that crap is hard as hell!), etc.

That's the end part. End Game.

You have an opinion, you don't have an objective fact.

Edited May 30, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Diamaht]

1 hour ago, Ardrossan said:

Citation please

Games like WoW, FFXIV, and GW2 doing well.  Even after dropoffs they manage to stabilize and hold millions of players. 

OSRS being far more popular than its successor.  WoW having a resurgence after it introduced Mythic plus (although they ended up going too far here) and classic servers.

Game design literature like A Book of Lenses talking extensively about how clearly defined and diverse roles (in our case tank/healer/dps) along with moderate but manageable challenge delivering far more engagement and enjoyment from the people who played their games and attractions.

All compared to SWTORs steady and consistent decline over the span of a decade.  That didn't happen because they didn't give you enough romance options.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Diamaht

[Stradlin]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

Thanks for speaking for all gamers around the world.

Problem is, it's an objectively false statement.

I

95% (ballpark) of the people in this game from hardcore raiders, to PVPers, to casuals, to newbies, most people in this game don't give a rat's ass about the level of difficulty in vanilla stories.

 

 

Thanks for speaking on behalf of all the gamers in the world with such objectivity,  heh.

 

Issue is with perception you end up with when talking to biggest  fans of SWTOR only:  Almost ***Everybody*** who finds lack of challenge during class stories a big enough problem isn't here to tell you about it; they're gone. I've had many friends try SWTOR and almost all of them start asking questions about difficulty around  Korriban/Tython. " It gets bit  harder than this later right..right?"

 

Majority of gamers usually want to feel like they're outperforming and beating and defeating the game they're playing. When game literally does it on their behalf, it begins to feel like an issue. MINORITY of people have no issue of any kind with this, they're here talking about how 0 difficulty class stories about beating up 0 difficulty sith lords to save the world is juuust the right way.

 

Class stories is all majority of people ever to try TOR are gonna find, in a very long time. There is lack of difficulty, lack of opportunities to fail and therefore, largest challenge when playing class stories is emerging from a fight feeling like you did well. People playing games often  like to feel like they've done well sometimes.

Ofc, this isn't an issue exclusive to TOR. Many MMO devs love having it this way. It completely removes the necessity to worry about game balance in anything class story related.  It is handy when dififculty just isn't there for you to worry about. 

It is very refreshing to see how that "95%" who, according to the Way of the Warrior, are all  objectively completely in love of utter lack of any difficulty in class stories are kinda making it clear they miss challenge in their games.  Elden Ring is extremely difficult and because it/despite of it among the  most popular and succesfull games released in years. Classic WoW is prolly the biggest MMO launch in a long while. Up and coming Hardcore mode for classic wow is likely gonna be the same.  People miss challenge and stakes in their leveling. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Stradlin

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 hour ago, Stradlin said:

It is very refreshing to see how that "95%" who, according to the Way of the Warrior, are all  objectively completely in love of utter lack of any difficulty in class stories are kinda making it clear they miss challenge in their games.  Elden Ring is extremely difficult and because it/despite of it among the  most popular and succesfull games released in years. Classic WoW is prolly the biggest MMO launch in a long while. Up and coming Hardcore mode for classic wow is likely gonna be the same.  People miss challenge and stakes in their leveling. 

I'm just working with what I see people saying pal. I wouldn't care if they made class stories more difficult.  If I was able to do progression raiding and pvp, I'm sure I'd be okay with an increased difficulty to story.

My point is that it shouldn't be a mandatory increase in difficulty that isn't optional. I see a lot of people expressing that they don't want vanilla story more difficult mandatory and I don't think that would be good for new players to the game. A difficulty setting? Sure, absolutely, that hurts no one, it's optional.

That way its good for everyone. People who just play the game for story and aren't interested in making content they've done a zillion times before harder and only slows their experience while leveling their 97th alt, casuals, and newbies, they get to have the same experience they're use to and they want. For people who would want more of challenge in their class story difficulty, they click a higher difficulty and they get what they want.

Win/Win.

I'm not against optional, I'm against mandatory for a whole lot of people who have expressed in this string they don't want. I don't think that's good for the game.

And personally, and this is just my opinion, I find doing The Eternal whateverthehell storyline on master mode more annoying than funner. I can get thru it, I can complete it, I've done it, but it definitely didn't make it funner for me. It's a challange that I can meet, but I get nothing for the extra effort. It just made it more annoying.

I did the Heroic Space Missions because I wanted to see if I could complete them because they're hard as hell. Once I did it, I never felt the desire to do it again. Challenge met. So I can see why people wouldn't want to have to constantly be like pulling teeth just to get thru the story line when they wanna level a new alt.

People play those story lines over and over and over again. It gets boring after a while, you want to level a new alt, they just wanna get thru it as fast as possible. Making that mandatorialy harder for them is not gonna make people who like having lots of alts happier. It's gonna piss them off. It's like doing flashpoints for conquest or for FP-1s or for Galactic Season points, people wanna get thru that flashpoint as fast as possible.

"Spacebar please".

I basically just play end game because I like the challenge of raiding or PVP and soloing flashpoints on Veteran so I can get all the decos to sell and BIS gear makes that faster.

I don't think it's unreasonable to make a change in difficulty for kiddie corner optional.

And as I said previously, I don't think that's the wisest use of limited resources and limited manpower. I don't think the difficulty of the vanilla story line is what most people would prioritize considering the limited resources of the game.  I think expanding the game is what's best for the game, not rehashing 12 year old content a lot of long term players have done over and over again ad nauseam.

Look at all the different complaints around the forums, there's tons of them.

* Make more PVP maps. * Make new Operations. * Make NiM R4. * Fix the Economy * Bring back Ranked. * Give GSF some updates. * Update crafting. * Change the gearing system. * Seperate Premade and Solo PVP queces. * Fix all the bugs. * Answer tickets faster. * Have new story content more often. * Have more communication between devs and the fans on the forums.

I don't see many people calling for increasing the difficulty of newbie content. I don't see anyone saying they're leaving the game because the vanilla story line is too easy.

I mean, am I wrong? Are there lots of strings that can be linked from over the years about people complaining that vanilla story lines are to easy and they should make them more difficult with anywhere near the same frequency we see strings about the above mentioned complaints?

Because if that's not the case, I really can't see justifying using the limited resources to prioritize that over the many of the above mentioned complaints.

And even if they did, why would making it optional somehow be a problem? Would people say "Well, it's optional, so therefore not good enough so I won't join the game or come back to the game.  It has to be mandatory."

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, I don't see prioritizing that at this juncture. If I see a lot of people saying its important to them and its more important than all the other complaints, than I'll support it as clearly than it would be what's best for the game.

It doesn't have to be what I want. It's not about me, it's about what's best for the game. But if it involves using limited resources and limited manpower, than it should be what a noticeable majority of the people want and express.

Edited May 30, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Stradlin]

32 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

 

I don't see anyone saying they're leaving the game because the vanilla story line is too easy.

 

 

 It is the perception. People who leave the game because they get bored by the lack of challenge  aren't here to talk about it.

 

When it comes to the default experience(class story+some story mode FPs maybe), it  is extremely difficult in TOR to find content challenging enough to be meaningful gameplay.  GSF, PvP or some gimmicky self imposed handicaps are your only options until you reach high levels. So everybody new who sticks around til they are new no longer are those who get past this massive hurdle or have no problem with it, or enjoy it.

 

I don't think anyone here is even asking for it to be difficult, or challenging. Just challenging enough not to be completely meaningless. How many mighty sith lords you encounter in class story who are so fearsome that you can't go afk once the fight starts and still defeat them?  This is the depth bar is at.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Stradlin

[DWho]

1 hour ago, Stradlin said:

 

I don't think anyone here is even asking for it to be difficult, or challenging. Just challenging enough not to be completely meaningless. How many mighty sith lords you encounter in class story who are so fearsome that you can't go afk once the fight starts and still defeat them?  This is the depth bar is at.

The "gimicky stuff" is how you fix the issue for the people who have a problem with not feeling challenged while not imposing your preferences on someone else. Is it perfect?, no, but it is most certainly an option to increase difficulty (and most definitely the direction Bioware should take in creating an optional difficulty increase should they choose to do so). In fact most of it is just an extension of something that already exists in the game (Level Sync), which doesn't work properly on low level planets on its own and is why you need these extra "gimmicks" to create more challenge. What you and the other "game is too easy" people continue to fail to realize is that the game is functioning exactly the same as it did at launch.

When you massively out-leveled the content at launch it was trivial (heck I used to solo World Bosses for the weekly gearing crystals, try doing that now and tell me how easy it is). It is exactly the same now (nothing different other than the pace at which you increase in level). The problem now is that experienced players with BIS gear and max influence companions are so much more powerful than someone playing their first character, that balancing the entire game around anything is all but impossible. Make it hard enough for the elites to feel challenged even slightly and it becomes a massive uninteresting slog where the tedious combat muddles the story (oh, I have to stop my story progression and grind mobs for a couple of levels so I can take on the next planet's story). The correct solution is to nerf the elites further (as an option) in the "trivial" content, not increase the overall difficulty of the game.

It is just wishful thinking to believe people left the game because it was too easy when back at launch all the clamoring was about how difficult (mostly read time consuming) it was for players to get their second or third alt to endgame. Bioware responded to those requests by speeding up leveling which leads us to where we are now with overleveled characters trivializing the low end content and then complaining it is too easy.

Edited May 30, 2023 by DWho

[DWho]

1 hour ago, Stradlin said:

 It is the perception. People who leave the game because they get bored by the lack of challenge  aren't here to talk about it.

Equally probable is that the players currently playing the game find the difficulty just fine and don't come here to complain about it. After all, how often do you see a "I love the way this works" post.

[Stradlin]

32 minutes ago, DWho said:

The "gimicky stuff" is how you fix the issue for the people who have a problem with not feeling challenged while not imposing your preferences on someone else. Is it perfect?, no, but it is most certainly an option to increase difficulty (

People making their lives more dififcult to play the game without said game in no way recognizing their self made handicaps just  isn't very interesting or rewarding. That isn't game challenging its players. At the end of that road, no game in the universe can possibly be too easy for anyone - just play with your eyes closed! Or better yet, just imagine it is more difficult.

 

Quote

It is just wishful thinking to believe people left the game because it was too easy when back at launch all the clamoring was about how difficult (mostly read time consuming)

 Time consuming isn't  necessarily difficult, and difficult isn't necessarily time consuming. BW turning some KOTFE trash into HP sponges isn't same as increasing difficulty. It being slow to level up isn't difficult. 

[DWho]

5 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

People making their lives more dififcult to play the game without said game in no way recognizing their self made handicaps just  isn't very interesting or rewarding.

But it's already too easy for them so they should get less rewards right. Less challenging = less rewards in your book right?

[DWho]

7 minutes ago, Stradlin said:

 Time consuming isn't  necessarily difficult, and difficult isn't necessarily time consuming. BW turning some KOTFE trash into HP sponges isn't same as increasing difficulty. It being slow to level up isn't difficult. 

It would take resources far in excess of the value to change the mechanics of NPCs to make them more challenging.

[Stradlin]

1 minute ago, DWho said:

But it's already too easy for them so they should get less rewards right. Less challenging = less rewards in your book right?

Rewards/rewarding doesn't necessarily constitute of game giving you a better glowy stick.  In vanilla where you weren't supposed to be able to solo FPs, sometimes BW had actually written a sentence or two to boss dialogue, recognizing you if you had made it all the way there solo. That's rewarding. Dinging an achi is rewarding, vanity cosmetics is rewarding.

 

[DWho]

Just now, Stradlin said:

Rewards/rewarding doesn't necessarily constitute of game giving you a better glowy stick.  In vanilla where you weren't supposed to be able to solo FPs, sometimes BW had actually written a sentence or two to boss dialogue, recognizing you if you had made it all the way there solo. That's rewarding. Dinging an achi is rewarding, vanity cosmetics is rewarding.

 

That I wouldn't disagree with as long as the choice of difficulty is optional. I think though you will find that most people doing "harder" content do not think achievements, titles, or cosmetics are sufficiently rewarding. Look at all the complaining about the gearing system that went on and how certain posters were dead set against cosmetic only rewards for "harder" content. They wanted a concrete advantage from doing it.

Soloing FPs, Heroics, and even World Bosses in vanilla was actually quite easy (very few had any multiplayer mechanics). All you needed to be was 6 levels above the content (for Heroic 4s and World Bosses you needed to be 10 levels above) and the NPCs did virtually no damage to you. I think it would be more accurate to say Bioware didn't expect people to try to solo FPs

[Stradlin]

1 hour ago, DWho said:

 

Soloing FPs, Heroics, and even World Bosses in vanilla was actually quite easy (very few had any multiplayer mechanics). All you needed to be was 6 levels above the content (for Heroic 4s and World Bosses you needed to be 10 levels above) and the NPCs did virtually no damage to you. I think it would be more accurate to say Bioware didn't expect people to try to solo FPs

Some (or all?) of those spåecial nuggets  were in max level content though. False Emperor.

 

When it comes to your edit,

I dunno, for most it is all about game recognizing the hard mode they're doing. If it is an achi or an achi   with some sort a  of a reward(vanity armor, title) it is completely fine for most I'd say. People wanting more gear, better gear, nicer rewards is just invetibale, people being people. 

 

Gearing system of TOR at its current stage is prolly the most isnane thing I've ever seen in any video game ever...but that's a different coversation:p

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Stradlin

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

3 hours ago, Stradlin said:

I don't think anyone here is even asking for it to be difficult, or challenging. Just challenging enough not to be completely meaningless. How many mighty sith lords you encounter in class story who are so fearsome that you can't go afk once the fight starts and still defeat them?  This is the depth bar is at.

I have no issue with that at all. I personally may enjoy it with it being a bit more of challenge.

Sithlords should be powerful and not be a cake walk in terms of immersion, but if we're going to use that line of reasoning, than Operatives, Smugglers, Troopers and Bounty Hunters shouldn't stand much of a chance in hell against a trained Force User with a Lightsaber or Force Lightning.

Again, I have no issue with having an optional difficulty setting for vanilla story line. There's no downside that way. Everyone gets what they want.

No such thing as having too many options.

3 hours ago, Stradlin said:

 It is the perception. People who leave the game because they get bored by the lack of challenge  aren't here to talk about it.

How do you know how many people left the game because of the lack of challenge in the vanilla story line?

Without knowing that it's kinda of hard to gauge how big of an issue it is or how concerned the devs should be over it.

Edited May 30, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Stradlin]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

 

How do you know how many people left the game because of the lack of challenge in the vanilla story line?

Without knowing that it's kinda of hard to gauge how big of an issue it is or how concerned the devs should be over it.

 

Sure, nobody here has any numbers like these. It can be difficult even for EA to figure this stuff out I'd imagine. Based on purely anecdotal experiences, it is a notable issue though. When it comes to pool of " friends who have tried old republic at some point", lack of difficulty def been a very common complaint. My real life brother being the  most recent victim to it.  "it'll get more difficult than this later on, right?" has pretty depressing answers. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Stradlin

[Toraak]

8 hours ago, Diamaht said:

Games like WoW, FFXIV, and GW2 doing well.  Even after dropoffs they manage to stabilize and hold millions of players. 

OSRS being far more popular than its successor.  WoW having a resurgence after it introduced Mythic plus (although they ended up going too far here) and classic servers.

Game design literature like A Book of Lenses talking extensively about how clearly defined and diverse roles (in our case tank/healer/dps) along with moderate but manageable challenge delivering far more engagement and enjoyment from the people who played their games and attractions.

All compared to SWTORs steady and consistent decline over the span of a decade.  That didn't happen because they didn't give you enough romance options.

You do realize those game have more population, not due to the fact that the class story is hard, but that they get more content drops then swtor does. 

[Diamaht]

1 hour ago, Toraak said:

You do realize those game have more population, not due to the fact that the class story is hard, but that they get more content drops then swtor does. 

They get more content drops because they have more players and expect a return on investment.  

So the actual question is why do those games build up larger audiences?  Answer that, then act on those insights and you can have all the content you want.  Not before, and not doing the same things that did not work.

We are trying to explain it to you.