Premades Are Destroying The Queue Again As Per Usual

[Samcuu]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:01 AM, AwesomeTacoCat said:

I just disagree. The FUNDAMENTALS are exactly the same - have decent healing/dps output (tanking is totally different but I never recommend new players start out pvp tanking). Most pvpers these days don’t even come close to doing an acceptable amount of damage/healing because they don’t understand the most basic concepts of how to effectively play their class. All I'm saying is learn how to do that first in a static/scripted environment THEN learn to do the more complicated things in pvp like use dcds, kite, figure out effective use of stuns/mezzes/resolve, knockbacks, interrupts, etc. Even if you can’t do those things and can solely pump decent hps/dps numbers, you’re way ahead of the curve at this point given current average skill level. 

Alright I'll give you that. My point was that your rotation in an op is much different from having to kite and use dcds if one or more players are targeting you in a wz. You could parse insane numbers in a raid or on a training dummy but that all goes out the window when ur in a voidstar with a Mara on ur ass and a sorc blasting u with lightning from 30m away. That's all learned in pvp and from friends who know how to pvp and can show u the ropes. Los'ing, using ur dcds at the proper time, being geared and min maxing ur stats is all gonna go a long way. If you aren't reaching out for help with these matters safe to say a new player is gonna struggle even if they know their basic class abilities. 

As a side note for the op I do wonder what kind of gear ur wearing because it matters a lot in pvp these days. If you are in anything less than 332 purples with no augs ur gonna be food in wzs. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Samcuu

[Skolops]

3 hours ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

For pvp that might work, since it's all about the burst attacks, although it mostly trains you to stack crits for bigger hits.

For pve?  No.  Do yourself a favour and try starparse unless you only pvp now.

I wouldn't say that learning to get a single big hit is great for PvP, either. Certainly it's worthwhile and a good thing to do! - but at the same time, getting a big hit is more about having good gear and figuring out a specific sequence of skills that work. Improving in PvP and getting better so that you can do well over the course of a whole match is more a matter of experience and getting more comfortable with how your entire set of skills work together, what rotations or priorities to use them in, positioning, etc. A person can go into a PvP match and get an enormous 130K hit - and still have very low numbers for the whole match because setting up a single hit is not what PvP is about. 

[Skolops]

18 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

The way to do that is to not let up doing damage all match. That means hard swapping to your next target when someone pops immunities or DCD’s or knowing which DPS abilities ignore them. You also don’t want to die because respawning constantly eats into your DPS.

But you’ll also find that most of those players doing extremely high numbers aren’t concentrating on doing objectives. They will never guard, ball carry & probably never click to capture a node.

And while it’s good to have some of them on your team, you don’t want a whole team or you’ll never have anyone willing to guard, ball carry or click a node. That’s how matches turn into TDM’s and you can easily lose against less capable combat players who play the objectives.

The top DPS players will ALL be keybinders & mouse turners & most likely ex-ranked arena players. If you aren’t keybinding & mouse turning, you will never hit their numbers. If you can learn to KB properly, it will increase your DPS. But not everyone can or is willing to learn.

You can still do reasonable numbers as a hybrid-clicker-keybinder. Which is what many of us do on our gaming mice. Even a FPS mouse with limited buttons usually allows you to keybind 4-12 abilities if you use the Alt or/& Shift keys. But a MOBA or MMO mouse will give you more keybind options. 

Lastly, ping can also make a big difference to your DPS in PvP. But only if it’s over 150+ms. Because once you start going over that, players with lower ping will always have an advantage with things like leaping to you first or getting their DCD’s up faster or blowing you up before yours activate.

High ping also means you’ll miss a lot more because you may be out of position or your abilities mightn’t activate. 

While it’s great to strive to be the Top DPSer in matches, being competent & a team player in objective can be just as beneficial to winning as being the top DPSer. As long as you’re doing reasonably ok with your DPS & not getting blown up every 30 secs in solo combat. I know this first hand because my ping has gone from 19ms to 230ms over the years as the servers closed & moved.

PvP is all about practice & experience. That’s how you get better. You can even learn to play well with high ping (using unorthodox tactics😉).

 

I'd generally agree but add a few things.

One is a technicality that I have to point out just because it's weird. I agree: keybinding is essential, and mouse turning is pretty important. Nobody should take what I'm about to say to justify not learning these things - BUT one of the best sages I ever saw play was a full on clicker. I have no idea how he managed it and we all used to give him a good-natured hard time in the PvP community of our server, but he was excellent. Now he wasn't to the level of the top of the line sage/sorc on our server, BUT that guy was easily the best MMO player I've ever met or encountered so that isn't really much of a knock! This clicker was just really something else - but again, what was so odd about him is that you normally will never see anyone do anywhere half that well unless they keybind. 

Two: I can sympathize with learning mouse movement. I never clicked abilities - it was always obvious to me that this didn't make sense to do - BUT I did move with the WASD keys for the first year or so I played the game. I was actually pretty good considering I wasn't mouse turning, but it reached the point where I knew I had to learn. It was really hard at first, but I'd encourage anyone to not give up and to consider trying to learn by means of small steps. For example, one of the first things I did to learn it was just to turn with my mouse when I was in the corner by the health boost in Huttball and I was all alone. It was too much to try to mess with learning it when I was trying to deal with opponents as well, so I started just with those empty corners in Huttball. Then I started doing it in empty parts of other maps, and eventually started doing it while in combat/ It can be learned!

Three: I think it's not unusual for a top DPS player to also be playing the objectives, at least sometimes. Yes, there are a lot of players who just farm damage these days and ignore the objectives and an someone playing objectives will usually not beat them, but it is possible and certainly in a match where everyone is paying attention to the objectives you can still put up very high numbers while doing so. 

[Skolops]

1 hour ago, Wulfurkin said:

Ill try to keep your advice in mind, though i still have trouble grasping how some players are able to do 15 million or more dps in a single warzone. I know people complain about meta specs on these forums a lot but i know this isnt true, ive seen many different classes appear on the scoreboard at the end of matches holding such numbers.

Think of it this way: imagine you are in a 12 minute long warzone like a long Voidstar or Novarre. If a player managed to hit an attack without missing a single global cooldown the entire match and averaged 40K damage per hit, that would be over 20 million. Now people won't come close because nobody can ever miss NO cooldown the entire match. Some are used on defensive abilities, or on moving between targets, or on respawning, or on just getting from the spawn to the battle the first time. Also, people usually won't average 40K per attack, but you can probably get at least somewhere between 30k - 40k. The point is that if you can reliably do damage as often as possible, you can get high numbers.

Therefore, another really important aspect here in addition to what has already been said is having a decent enough team - usually with a good healer or two - so that you don't die and can keep doing damage! Related to this is learning how to survive longer by using positioning and defensive cooldowns well. 

[TrixxieTriss]

20 minutes ago, Skolops said:

 

I'd generally agree but add a few things.

One is a technicality that I have to point out just because it's weird. I agree: keybinding is essential, and mouse turning is pretty important. Nobody should take what I'm about to say to justify not learning these things - BUT one of the best sages I ever saw play was a full on clicker. I have no idea how he managed it and we all used to give him a good-natured hard time in the PvP community of our server, but he was excellent. Now he wasn't to the level of the top of the line sage/sorc on our server, BUT that guy was easily the best MMO player I've ever met or encountered so that isn't really much of a knock! This clicker was just really something else - but again, what was so odd about him is that you normally will never see anyone do anywhere half that well unless they keybind. 

Two: I can sympathize with learning mouse movement. I never clicked abilities - it was always obvious to me that this didn't make sense to do - BUT I did move with the WASD keys for the first year or so I played the game. I was actually pretty good considering I wasn't mouse turning, but it reached the point where I knew I had to learn. It was really hard at first, but I'd encourage anyone to not give up and to consider trying to learn by means of small steps. For example, one of the first things I did to learn it was just to turn with my mouse when I was in the corner by the health boost in Huttball and I was all alone. It was too much to try to mess with learning it when I was trying to deal with opponents as well, so I started just with those empty corners in Huttball. Then I started doing it in empty parts of other maps, and eventually started doing it while in combat/ It can be learned!

Three: I think it's not unusual for a top DPS player to also be playing the objectives, at least sometimes. Yes, there are a lot of players who just farm damage these days and ignore the objectives and an someone playing objectives will usually not beat them, but it is possible and certainly in a match where everyone is paying attention to the objectives you can still put up very high numbers while doing so. 

I agree with all that.

I’ve seen some excellent clickers over the years. I was once a full time clicker myself because I’ve really small hands & I just can’t reach many keyboard keys. But I was still usually above most peoples DPS. It’s also why I invested in a gaming mouse to hybrid-keybind-click.

But as I’ve gotten older, even that’s getting harder cause of arthritis. I can’t mouse turn properly anymore because of it, so I semi keyturn & still keybind my most important abilities to the mouse. I’m still usually in the top 3-4 DPSers on my teams.

There’s also a difference to being in the top 1, 2, 3 & cranking out 15+mil DPS in every match. People doing those sorts of numbers don’t have time to play objectives or their DPS would drop 😉

Edited April 14, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, Skolops said:

BUT one of the best sages I ever saw play was a full on clicker

impossible they aren't even looking at the screen, they cannot be the best and ezmode is the best anyway - no question about that - and he doesn't click

Edited April 14, 2023 by ZUHFB

[AwesomeTacoCat]

23 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

Ive never used star parse before, my main way to review my dps numbers has always been simply to watch the big hits that i do and the numbers that appear on my targets. If i manage to do a 40.000 hit and i mess around with buffs and rotations a little until it turns into a 60.000 hit then i know im improving and playing my class better.

This is just not gonna cut it if you want to get to the next level and up your play. You need to have a rotation/priority system set in stone that you mostly just augment here and there with defensives and crowd control (both on yourself and that you’re putting out). 
 

I’d wager the biggest reason that others are doing more damage is they have a better/more consistent rotation. And this is why my advice is always get star parse, dummy parse, pve do something to really learn how to do damage effectively. Without learning those fundamentals and committing to it by reading guides and using Star parse I think most people plateau at a low level. 

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

To be completely honest i jump in warzones with the same mindset as arenas which is because of my inexperience. I know very little about strategies and the objectives, all i can do is stick close to my team, put out dps and survive as long as possible after each respawn.

I was in OPG playing trying out 7.2 on preferred. I capped a "node" and this shadow is hanging around. I have the red buff. so I leave to turn off the enemy team's "node" nearby. the shadow follows me. I say, "why are you following me you fool. you just lost our node." his immediate reaction is, "the first toxic jerk of the day for my ignore list." he then puts me on ignore. because of "you fool." holy rusted metal, batman, that's a sensitive soul.

i strongly suggest you make some friends/join a guild and go into WZs in small groups, preferably with someone who knows the very basics at least. I suggest you avoid doing that in arenas, b/c grouping with fellow bad or undergeared players hurts an arena team exponentially more than it does a WZ team.

also, there's no need to break yourself on arenas.  you can get 20 of the 25 seasonal tokes without ever stepping foot in arenas. and if you're completely new to pvp, WZs are like the shallow end of the pool. there's no rated, but arenas are still significantly more difficult, and weak players are more quickly isolated and crushed.

[TrixxieTriss]

9 hours ago, Wulfurkin said:

To be completely honest i jump in warzones with the same mindset as arenas which is because of my inexperience. I know very little about strategies and the objectives, all i can do is stick close to my team, put out dps and survive as long as possible after each respawn.

This is why you should watch Snave’s PTSD series of video’s I linked. They talk about the maps & how they work. He also adds basic tactics & strategies. 

[VegaMist]

59 minutes ago, Wulfurkin said:

Im first and foremost focused on understanding the mechanics in this game that allow me to get higher dps numbers in pvp because its pathetically low compared to what most people are doing. If i cant do anything to bring their health bar down while facing them directly and they drain mine in three hits then no strategies or tactics are ever going to be effective if im part of it.

You can't understand mechanics of WZs if you don't take the time to learn the maps. High DPS (while helpful) doesn't win WZ matches - strategy does. And strategy changes with each map. Just running with your team trying to stay alive can sometimes even be detrimental rather than helpful cause you need to know when to fight and when to run away or switch to a different objective. With the start of this season, we've got an influx of not just under-geared players - we've got players who don't really know what they are doing which I, personally ,think is a bigger problem than the gear or high DPS. For example, a stealth who rushes through to open every door in Voidstar will have low DPS, but will greatly contribute to winning the game which is by far more important.

[Aghasett]

Tonight was the night I gave up on PVP. Used to love it, now premades have utterly killed it. As long as they allow premades to queue against non-premades, it's utterly pointless to play.

[Tasaas]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:30 PM, Aghasett said:

Tonight was the night I gave up on PVP. Used to love it, now premades have utterly killed it. As long as they allow premades to queue against non-premades, it's utterly pointless to play.

Dude, rehabs for quiters... 

 

But seriously, it is not that bad.  Lately I have been giving solos a try to see how you all get so upset.  Last night, I played 8 arenas as a solo in the early evening.  I had 2 wins and 6 loses.  It was not a matter of premades doing all the winning, but just the matching system that was the trouble.  There were a couple players that were very good and sometimes they were split and other times they were paired together.  Obviously, when they were paired together my team lost.  

I will add that along with the good players, there were a number of players that were less than good.  And when those players were paired together the matches went very bad.   To expand on this, there was a match where everyone else on my team did not even break 200,000 damage.  I think that to those players, premades were destroying them, but actually the fault was entirely something else.

I just keep thinking that you all have chicken little syndrome or something a kin to that.  The big bad premade is not after you, and they are not out there plotting and planning how they can ruin your fun.

At the end of the day, I completed my 7th arena weekly for the season and I felt good about that.

[ZUHFB]

I played regs yesterday for the first time after like 3 months and I had fun games UNTIL I see a premade. My fun levels instantly went negative and I just left the game 20s after the gates opened. And quite frankly, everybody should've.

Premades simply aren't fun to play against, bringing solo queue was a success in WoW and solo queue ranked was the reason teamranked was dead. It just is the easier to get into those games, I don't have to wait for someone to walk their goldfish or pet their snake or whatever, I can go into PvP when I want AND get somewhat fair games, they don't have to be balanced, they don't have to be good. In solo queue I can blame matchmaking, next game will be different - currently if I play against a premade I will be against a premade everytime I queue, or even worse: they will be in my team.

The pure fact that seperating the queues into solo and premade/yolo queue would instantly kill the premade queue is UNDENYABLE PROOF that premades are TERRIBLE for the game, for participation and for my personal enjoyment of your product which is already not worth paying for but I'm too addicted to unsub and I will ride this train to its, probably soon, demise.

ALL players should LEAVE every single game against a premade. We are endorsing premades by not leaving against them. I have never seen such an unfair and unfun gamemode, terrible 0/10. I should be ashamed that I pay for this, and I don't want to feel like that so, in the quite fitting words of T1: FIX YOUR GAME, IT SUCKS

hope you all are having a wonderful, premade free, day

[black_pyros]

If dealing with a premade causes you trouble, the game fairly gives you an option to form your own. No one unfairly forces you to queue solo. That's fair.

[black_pyros]

After all, PvP is a team game. I am against giving players less options and removing things but if anything is removed, it should be the queue solo option, not the group queue. It's like if they ban teams in operations - these are team game mode as well. It would be stupid to ban teams in a team game.

[ZUHFB]

5 hours ago, black_pyros said:

If dealing with a premade causes you trouble, the game fairly gives you an option to form your own. No one unfairly forces you to queue solo. That's fair.

As I said: solo queue in WoW is such a huge success because I and apparently many others, do not want to form a premade. They just want to game, nobody cares if they win or lose, but being farmed by a premade for 20 minutes sounds like fun to you?! No. There is nothing to learn, nothing to do except LEAVE the WZ. Spliting the queues would kill premades, this alone is proof enough that nobody wants to form a premades or "play with friends", they just want to global as many players as they can. The players being destroyed do not even realize that the premades don't care and don't want to win, it happens on accident because everyone is dead.

Now stop white-knighting people who ruin the games for 96% of the playersbase.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

6 hours ago, black_pyros said:

After all, PvP is a team game. I am against giving players less options and removing things but if anything is removed, it should be the queue solo option, not the group queue. It's like if they ban teams in operations - these are team game mode as well. It would be stupid to ban teams in a team game.

You seem to live in a very bizarre fantasy land. Equating warzones with operations is blatantly unreasonable. And if you actually pvp, you almost certainly know that the number of solo players dwarfs the number of premade groups by a large margin, I don’t even know how you can take your own arguments seriously dude 

[Varcado]

Please add a solo queue for people wanting to pvp against other solo players. Premades make the experience toxic for casual and new players that just wanna have a fun time.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Varcado

[Shwarzchild]

24 minutes ago, Varcado said:

Please add a solo queue for people wanting to pvp against other solo players. Premades make the experience toxic for casual and new players that just wanna have a fun time.

What do you define as toxic? Is any loss simply by its nature "toxic"?

I get premades are an issue, whether big or small, and  is perception based.  5+ definitely I'll agree with you whole heartedly. But this idea that a group of people simply beating you in a game mode where one team will win and one will lose is now defined as toxic is...interesting?  I que solo most of the time. My win rates on my characters range from 45-65 percent in both modes. My experience has taught me that I can que solo, have good matches, and win simply by way of improving my own skill level. Maybe, and I know this is super unpopular, the answer is to try to improve your skill set so that you can be more and more competitive in a by its nature competitive game mode? If I can do it so can you, or anyone else.

Is toxic defined as "they're making it too hard for me to complete the season track"?  This isn't toxic. 

Are they talking trash to you? Yes? Then I can agree on toxicity.  If they aren't? Well come on now, how do you know that they aren't casual players who simply are a bit more skilled?

What does a fun time even mean? Is a fun time only applicable if you win? 

This whole complaint is so vague. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Shwarzchild

[SirRadCliffe]

I have a feeling this is one of those toxic Seasons or techfrag farmers. Instead of defending their nodes they just straight run away, dying halfway towards the next node. Probably hasn't realized there is more than one skill bar they can use or just doesn't bother to bind their skills to keys. 

You feel group players need removed because you are a casual player...okay bud, that means what exactly? you play once a week? once a month? you que long enough to complete a weekly then you never touch the mode again? How casual are you really? 

And you think just because you're a casual player who hardly clicks that pvp button that grouped players should be quarantined away from you because... they kill you in PVP? what does Player Vs Player actually mean to you? Only 1v1s allowed? Or only clicking PVE objectives is allowed? 

I got bad news for ya, the grouped players are having a heck of a fun time, take the hint and find some friends. Or go farm objectives in 4v4s, might help you learn your class a little. And when grouped players like us solo que, people like you will still get farmed, it isn't a group issue, it's a skill issue. 

Maybe you'd better off arguing for a junior league where you only have access to the starter skills only, saber strike and rapid shots that's it. Maybe that's a bit more your pace. 

Now if you're a smart casual player, you'd make friends, learn how the people in those groups play so well and improve your own skills. My premade helps newbies all the time, improving their skills and rotation, helping them learn about proper positioning and kiting, and which classes they should or should not be fighting with certain specs. But if you just want to be toxic during every game and complain because we killed you in a pvp match, then buddy we are gonna farm you like the potato you are. 

PO-TAT-OES

BOIL EM

MASH EM

BEAT THEM IN THE QUE

[Varcado]

toxic is camping the spawn because a group has bursty classes and a healer and they say EZ when you keep getting 1 shot by thier focused attacks.

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, SirRadCliffe said:

I have a feeling this is one of those toxic Seasons or techfrag farmers. Instead of defending their nodes they just straight run away, dying halfway towards the next node. Probably hasn't realized there is more than one skill bar they can use or just doesn't bother to bind their skills to keys. 

You feel group players need removed because you are a casual player...okay bud, that means what exactly? you play once a week? once a month? you que long enough to complete a weekly then you never touch the mode again? How casual are you really? 

And you think just because you're a casual player who hardly clicks that pvp button that grouped players should be quarantined away from you because... they kill you in PVP? what does Player Vs Player actually mean to you? Only 1v1s allowed? Or only clicking PVE objectives is allowed? 

I got bad news for ya, the grouped players are having a heck of a fun time, take the hint and find some friends. Or go farm objectives in 4v4s, might help you learn your class a little. And when grouped players like us solo que, people like you will still get farmed, it isn't a group issue, it's a skill issue. 

Maybe you'd better off arguing for a junior league where you only have access to the starter skills only, saber strike and rapid shots that's it. Maybe that's a bit more your pace. 

Now if you're a smart casual player, you'd make friends, learn how the people in those groups play so well and improve your own skills. My premade helps newbies all the time, improving their skills and rotation, helping them learn about proper positioning and kiting, and which classes they should or should not be fighting with certain specs. But if you just want to be toxic during every game and complain because we killed you in a pvp match, then buddy we are gonna farm you like the potato you are. 

PO-TAT-OES

BOIL EM

MASH EM

BEAT THEM IN THE QUE

It’s this type of toxic attitude towards other players that is driving new players away. 

[Prapcaster]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

It’s this type of toxic attitude towards other players that is driving new players away. 

I wouldn't have worded it how he did but he's not completely wrong. Both sides have a large sense of entitlement to a certain degree. This is an mmo and before 8 mans were even a thing there were people mad that the other tema grouped up with friends. Get rid of 8 man premades for sure but remove being able to play with friends in a casual pvp enviroment and you may as well just throw money at WoW.

[Varcado]

10 minutes ago, Prapcaster said:

I wouldn't have worded it how he did but he's not completely wrong. Both sides have a large sense of entitlement to a certain degree. This is an mmo and before 8 mans were even a thing there were people mad that the other tema grouped up with friends. Get rid of 8 man premades for sure but remove being able to play with friends in a casual pvp enviroment and you may as well just throw money at WoW.

they can still queue as groups but they should be fighting other groups if its 4+.

[Prapcaster]

Just now, Varcado said:

they can still queue as groups but they should be fighting other groups if its 4+.

You mean like ranked?