Please Run a Player Survey about Premades vs Solo

[DeannaVoyager]

12 hours ago, black_pyros said:

51% is certainly not a stellar win rate but I consider every solo player that manages to have more wins than loses especially against premades a skilled player. If having more wins than losses in a system designed to 50% of players to lose by default is not considered a skill, I don't know what is.

 

Sorry, but barely over average is not skilled. But I guess you need to believe it is so that it fits your narrative better. 

 

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Because it required a lot of planning. And most of the time you wanted the same 4 ppl playing to gain a team synergy/learn how to play together. If you didn't play with the same ppl you'd risk losing elo. Solo's you could just jump on and play not having to rely on 3 other ppl and navigate their schedules. 

 

This is what I was referring to. 

“it would certainly be bad for the general skill level of playerbase and would lead to worse quality of matches”

By his logic, solo ranked was full of unskilled players & the quality was trash. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[black_pyros]

42 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

By his logic, solo ranked was full of unskilled players & the quality was trash. 

No that just your faulty logic.... I never said solo ranked was trash, just that group ranked had potential to be more competitive than solo ranked. Solo ranked was competitive thanks to visible Elo and rewards based on it which promoted competiton. I was refering to regs where coordinated groups that play for win tends to create more pressure even on soloers to improve, thus increasing the quality of matches.

But it's nice how even you admit TR was dead. This means you realize damn too well that splitting queues = killing premades. You think it's healthy for the game to kill premades to please soloers, BW seems to think otherwise.

Edited February 23, 2023 by black_pyros

[black_pyros]

9 hours ago, ilubebi said:

This is a lot of words to just say "premades should have their own queue."

Nope. Just no. Premades-only queue would dry up fast with this game's low population. Premades need to be in same queue as soloers, but under some conditions - always put premade vs a premade and if there is only one premade in queue, make it wait some longer time before matchmaker puts it against soloers, to ensure the same soloers don't face that single premade over and over again, match after match.

If this game actually had healthy population, matchmaker could form teams based on Elo and totally ignore if players queue in premade or solo. Soloers with good Elo can face premade full off badies just fine.

[ZUHFB]

5 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

Nope. Just no. Premades-only queue would dry up fast with this game's low population.

Then maybe premades shouldn't be allowed if nobody in a premade wants to play against one? 

Almost like playing against a premade isn't fun

Edited February 23, 2023 by ZUHFB

[black_pyros]

46 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

Then maybe premades shouldn't be allowed if nobody in a premade wants to play against one?

It isn't that easy as just premades don't want to face other premades. There are many like that for sure but the issue is more complex. I am talking about low population issue, where you have players like these from the Down under continent which is a low population barren wasteland unable to generate enough players to maintain a stand-alone server, so the unfortunates living there are doomed to play during weird hours on servers far away, where the population either sleeps or works, leading to a very specific and unpleasant experience when matchmaker creates totally lopsided matches, forcing some of the more sensitive unfortunates to then 𝚜̶𝚙̶𝚊̶𝚖̶...err, frequent the forums for years, begging BW to destroy the PvP by removing premades, believing said premades are the core issue and not the population, skill gaps, meta classes and plethora others.

Edited February 23, 2023 by black_pyros

[ZUHFB]

2 hours ago, black_pyros said:

It isn't that easy as just premades don't want to face other premades. There are many like that for sure but the issue is more complex. I am talking about low population issue, where you have players like these from the Down under continent which is a low population barren wasteland unable to generate enough players to maintain a stand-alone server, so the unfortunates living there are doomed to play during weird hours on servers far away, where the population either sleeps or works, leading to a very specific and unpleasant experience when matchmaker creates totally lopsided matches, forcing some of the more sensitive unfortunates to then 𝚜̶𝚙̶𝚊̶𝚖̶...err, frequent the forums for years, begging BW to destroy the PvP by removing premades, believing said premades are the core issue and not the population, skill gaps, meta classes and plethora others.

No, they don't want to wait 15 minutes for a game they know they will lose, it didn't work for teamranked and it won't work for premade only queue because nobody wants to be against a premade. It's not fun, it should not be possible at least for arenas it shouldn't. 

I honestly don't care about warzones, so it's whatever to me.

[DeannaVoyager]

8 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Solo's you could just jump on and play not having to rely on 3 other ppl and navigate their schedules. 

 

 

This is the reason why I want to queue solo, btw. 

Having a solo queue only wasn't a problem before, why do some people make it a problem now, I wonder.

 

3 hours ago, black_pyros said:

Premades-only queue would dry up fast with this game's low population.

 

Then don't play premades. Or make friends and ask them to make another premade to play against you. Forcing solo players to get farmed just so that a handful of premades can queue will kill the population even faster. 

 

 

 

 

 

[black_pyros]

39 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

No, they don't want to wait 15 minutes for a game they know they will lose.

If they have to wait 15 minutes for a match to start, the queue is dead. Premades aren't the problem then, the low population is. Experience of the players in dead queue is likely going to be miserable anyway, because the skill discrepancy in dead queue is high.

During server healthy window population should be big enough to allow premades to be put against premades, and in a weird case there is only one premade online, it isn't a 1st class problem to occasionally toss it against group of soloers, as they likely won't face that premade again for the rest of the day - some others will until the 2nd premade eventually joins the queue.

Edited February 23, 2023 by black_pyros

[black_pyros]

22 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Then don't play premades. Or make friends and ask them to make another premade to play against you

I don't want to derail the discussion with those low-like arguments. I can counter argument on the same level and respond that I already made friends and queueing in group so you are free to do it, too to even the playfield a bit. But we both can do better than this, can't we?

[black_pyros]

42 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Having a solo queue only wasn't a problem before, why do some people make it a problem now, I wonder.

Because population shrank to a level where they had to remove 2 queues (SR and TR) just to be able to populate at least 2 last queues (8vs8 and 4vs4) on lvl 80. Don't let the BW's reasoning "because of toxicity" fool you.

Edited February 23, 2023 by black_pyros

[ZUHFB]

1 hour ago, black_pyros said:

Because population shrank to a level where they had to remove 2 queues (SR and TR) just to be able to populate at least 2 last queues (8vs8 and 4vs4) on lvl 80. Don't let the BW's reasoning "because of toxicity" fool you.

if that would be true why remove it after s14? s14 was more active than s13 and s12, by a lot! They removed it because they didn't know how to combine leaderboards/combat styles/elo. 

the only dead gamemode was teamranked, because: nobody. wants. to. play. against. a. premade.

Edited February 23, 2023 by ZUHFB

[black_pyros]

6 minutes ago, ZUHFB said:

if that would be true why remove it after s14? s14 was more active than s13 and s12, by a lot! They removed it because they didn't know how to combine leaderboards/combat styles/elo. 

the only dead gamemode was teamranked, because: nobody. wants. to. play. against. a. premade.

I am not saying SR was totally dead, but it certainly was compared to like first 3 seasons or so. I am just saying that PvP population in general dropped so low, they had to combine regs population with the ranked one to be able to continue to deliver some fast pops for PvP players (and yeah it came in a convenient time, so they didn't have to deal with the combat styles vs. leaderboards issue).

And yes, TR was dead because - as someone else already pointed out - nobody wants to play against better players, not the premades. Premades don't automatically equal to better players and soloers don't automatically equal to worse players - skill is the deciding factor (after you deal with other issues like meta specs, gearing, etc). With a healthy population and a proper Elo based matchmaker, even TR could ensure that premades of only similar skill level face each other and provide a healthy, fun and competitive environment.

[black_pyros]

20 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

if I hate to play against better players, please name them (EU only)

Warzones and arenas are a team based gamemode. Facing one demigod in a team is not an issue. But no one likes to face 4 or 8 better players, game after game and lose everytime. Losing a game in a gamemode designed to 50% of players to lose is not a shame and is certainly not an issue. But losing game after game after game is certainly bad experience and I can't believe anyone may like it - including you.

Now, just stop confuse better players with premades. If you face better players each game, you are going to lose. If you face premade each game, you are not - unless you are basically saying a nonsense, that premades are always better players and there are no bad premades out there.

Skill gap is the issue - not the premades. No one likes to face better players constantly and lose each game. Better players can queue in premades the same as they can queue as solo. Please everyone, stop confusing better players with premades. They are not the same.

[uppen]

16 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

Skill gap is the issue - not the premades. 

Wrong. Premades ARE the problem because it allows players to stack the deck with those good players, instead of allowing the matchmaking system to spread them out across both teams. 

[black_pyros]

4 minutes ago, SoontirMorillo said:

The daily reality on the servers for the last 11 years paints a different picture for well over 90% of the playerbase.

Then such a playerbase needs to join and to face more coordinated premades to train them properly, not less. 😆

[uppen]

Just now, black_pyros said:

Then such a playerbase needs to join and to face more coordinated premades to train them properly, not less. 😆

Yes, in a premade only queue.

[AwesomeTacoCat]

14 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

Warzones and arenas are a team based gamemode. Facing one demigod in a team is not an issue. But no one likes to face 4 or 8 better players, game after game and lose everytime. Losing a game in a gamemode designed to 50% of players to lose is not a shame and is certainly not an issue. But losing game after game after game is certainly bad experience and I can't believe anyone may like it - including you.

Now, just stop confuse better players with premades. If you face better players each game, you are going to lose. If you face premade each game, you are not - unless you are basically saying a nonsense, that premades are always better players and there are no bad premades out there.

Skill gap is the issue - not the premades. No one likes to face better players constantly and lose each game. Better players can queue in premades the same as they can queue as solo. Please everyone, stop confusing better players with premades. They are not the same.

I feel like we’re just playing at semantics here. 
 

It is premades consisting of good players, not better players, that are the problem. 
 

Let me illustrate with an example. Suppose there are 8 people in que. I am the best player in que, then there are 4 decent players in que, and 3 basic attack bots in que. If we have random solo matchmaking, I’m probably going to win most of my games cause I can carry unless I get really unlucky and happen to get all 3 bots in my team. the four decent players will all win about half the time and the boys will lose a lot but still win a few when they can get carried. This seems eminently fair, better players win more often. But now, suppose the four decent players all group up together. Now the best player will lose EVERY MATCH because they are paired up with basic attack bots. How is this sort of situation healthy for the game? Now you have four unhappy people who probably just stop queing altogether. 
 

Thus, it’s not about premades of better players being bad necessarily, it’s about premades that that are better than the other players in que to the extent that even excellent players can’t carry.  
 

And this is the situation that many in this thread are lobbying to get rid of. 

[black_pyros]

1 minute ago, uppen said:

Yes, in a premade only queue.

Yes, if we had a population big enough to support such a queue. And Voila! We are back at the population issue. That is the core issue, not the poor premades trying to uplift the level of play, increasing the quality of matches.

[uppen]

4 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

Yes, if we had a population big enough to support such a queue. And Voila! We are back at the population issue. That is the core issue, not the poor premades trying to uplift the level of play, increasing the quality of matches.

Nope, the core issue is premades in the same queue as solos. This problem has nothing to do with population. Premading only lifts the quality of play if both teams are premades, and both teams are of similar skill level. Premades in the same queue as solos does not lift the quality of play, it destroys it.

[black_pyros]

8 minutes ago, AwesomeTacoCat said:

Let me illustrate with an example. Suppose there are 8 people in que. I am the best player in que, then there are 4 decent players in que, and 3 basic attack bots in que. If we have random solo matchmaking, I’m probably going to win most of my games cause I can carry unless I get really unlucky and happen to get all 3 bots in my team. the four decent players will all win about half the time and the boys will lose a lot but still win a few when they can get carried. This seems eminently fair, better players win more often. But now, suppose the four decent players all group up together. Now the best player will lose EVERY MATCH because they are paired up with basic attack bots. How is this sort of situation healthy for the game?

Do you ask how is that situation healthy in a team based game? It is healthy as it persuades players to coordinate better in a gamemode that is designed to be won by better coordination.

Those 4 decent players actually put some effort to socialize and befriend each other so they can coordinate better and win more games. I know - a strange concept for some loners in a competitive environment, all based on coordination.

While you - the best player out there didn't put such an effort to coordinate with others, thus you don't deserve to win just because you are the best, because again - wzs and arenas are a team-based gamemode, where coordinated effort is more important, than simply being the best player.

[Samcuu]

10 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

This is what I was referring to. 

“it would certainly be bad for the general skill level of playerbase and would lead to worse quality of matches”

By his logic, solo ranked was full of unskilled players & the quality was trash. 

I never played solo ranked past season 2, it bored me because it was frustrating to get bad players on your team and then cause you to lose elo. I only played group ranked for the most part because you had more control of whether or not u win a match and if u didn't then u just accept that the other team is better. Early seasons were good because the population was big enough.

But it's true, as I've been reporting from this past weekend of play the absolute worst boring matches I played were when there were no premades in queue and it was just a bunch of bots queued solo. As a solo player it was infinitely more fun matching up against a premade. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Samcuu

[black_pyros]

12 minutes ago, uppen said:

Premades in the same queue as solos does not lift the quality of play, it destroys it.

You got it completely backwards. Premades of coordianted players lift the quality of games. Soloers, loners and hermits refusing to coordinate with others lowers it. Until you understand this, you will always suffer in a team-based gamemode designed to be won by better coordination.

[Samcuu]

13 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

nobody in teamranked ever was at risk of losing anything, just queue dodge the only other team with hands on the server, get someone from SMW to leak their events and just snipe the mat farmers - 75% of teamranked games were like this, that is why the gamemode was bad, because it has no RNG element, you knew who you're up against - if you were to win you stay in queue and if you were to lose just drop out of queue, wait until they're gone

it was a terrible gamemode all around and now its even worse because those teams actually do get pops now, against people who never signed up to be against a full team. It's just not fun.

Yeah well that was much later in the seasons. I'm talking about season 8 and prior where the queues were dynamic because there were a lot of ppl interested in the game mode and you'd actually get many different matches going at once. I quit after season 8 because stealthers would exploit after their heals/tank had died. Prevented me from getting gold by using a fly hack and exiting the map during acid. It was frustrating for me to spend so much time and energy and just get cheated. I asked multiple times for Bioware to do something and nothing. Regs are much better for ur sanity cuz it doesn't matter if u win or lose.  

Edited February 23, 2023 by Samcuu

[uppen]

3 minutes ago, black_pyros said:

Do you ask how is that situation healthy in a team based game? It is healthy as it persuades players to coordinate better in a gamemode that is designed to be won by better coordination.

Those 4 decent players actually put some effort to socialize and befriend each other so they can coordinate better and win more games. I know - a strange concept for some loners in a competitive environment, all based on coordination.

While you - the best player out there didn't put such an effort to coordinate with others, thus you don't deserve to win just because you are the best, because again - wzs and arenas are a team-based gamemode, where coordinated effort is more important, than simply being the best player.

It is not healthy because it allows the 4 good players to stack the deck, bypassing the matchmaking system, so they are all always on the same team. That is not fair, nor fun, for everyone else. It will make no difference to the outcome if those 3 bad players team up because the 4 good players will never want to group with them. No-one wants to play with bad players on their team, therefore the bad, and good, players should be split evenly across both teams. Only matchmaking solo players can achieve this. Matchmaking can not achieve a fair split when the good players are grouped together.