Operations

[ebcbrakes]

are you really that stupid , you make it so that top gear can only be gathered from R4 which has been farmed for 4 months by elitist groups BUT the hardest content NiM is now being farmed by the same elitist groups because they are so overgeared for this content , some groups i know killed 2nd and 3rd boss in R4 over 70 times just to get geared and unless you were part of the elitist groups  , you really have driven a huge wedge between the casual subscribers an the elitist community that normally disappear once they have their achievements 

[Ergecrs]

Casuals aren't doing nim's prior to this. Also hate to break it to you but those of us completing R4, were also completing nims prior to R4. Casuals just got an easy boost to 336 without having to do much. 

[Chryptyk]

i don't know what server and discords you are in, but on SF there are lots of pug groups for watchdog and kanoth being run off some discords.  a lot of those groups are willing to take someone new and give you a shot at kills as long as you can get the mechanics down.

 

that being said, only being able to get it from R4 is decidedly very annoying.  after running it over and over, it gets rather tiresome.

[Ergecrs]

8 minutes ago, Chryptyk said:

i don't know what server and discords you are in, but on SF there are lots of pug groups for watchdog and kanoth being run off some discords.  a lot of those groups are willing to take someone new and give you a shot at kills as long as you can get the mechanics down.

 

that being said, only being able to get it from R4 is decidedly very annoying.  after running it over and over, it gets rather tiresome.

I do agree with this. IMO, i would like to see tokens added to the older nim Ops, But change them to specific pieces. So for example, Nefra drops Belts only. First bosses should drop junk gear. 

[Christie_Swift]

3 minutes ago, Ergecrs said:

Casuals aren't doing nim's prior to this. Also hate to break it to you but those of us completing R4, were also completing nims prior to R4. Casuals just got an easy boost to 336 without having to do much. 

How? Can you elaborate "without having much to do"? means?

[Chryptyk]

1 minute ago, Christie_Swift said:

How? Can you elaborate "without having much to do"? means?

farm EV HM and bait relics to break down for ops mats and then do dailies & heroics for the daily mats.  you can even buy 324 rakata from the vendor now without having to do nefra at all, and then upgrade it from there to get to 336 to use it to break down for the 336 enhancement unlock.  336 prototype you can unlock via flashpoints or with columni gear.

[ebcbrakes]

18 minutes ago, Ergecrs said:

Casuals aren't doing nim's prior to this. Also hate to break it to you but those of us completing R4, were also completing nims prior to R4. Casuals just got an easy boost to 336 without having to do much. 

hate to break it to you but before expansion i was regularly doing NiM but as i do not have an elitist group or am not a member of elitist community on darth malgus server getting any R4 kills was almost impossible , casual subscribers keep the game alive whilst NiM elitists have their 12 month break after getting their achievements and disappear for their break from swtor

[Arsq]

13 hours ago, ebcbrakes said:

are you really that stupid

To quote Jar Jar: "How rude."

Quote

you make it so that top gear can only be gathered from R4

Historically the best PvE gear has been available from the newest or the most challenging operations, so this is not a new concept. With 6.0 expansion it was different, but in 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0... All of these expansions had the best gear coming from operations. Usually Master modes, or Veteran modes (or NiM & HM respectively). R-4 providing the best gear is a decent motivator to do the operation. And if you don't want to do R-4, then there are other operations that are very doable with 331 item rating. You only really need/want the top gear for R-4 VM/MM or some of the harder MMs like Gods and Dxun. Realistically, if the group cannot handle R-4 VM, then the struggle will be worse in Dxun or Gods MM, not to even to mention the promised R-4 MM.

Quote

which has been farmed for 4 months by elitist groups

I don't quite follow. Is it a problem that some groups have been able to clear the operation for months? Clearly it's evidence that the operation (R-4) is fairly balanced and the content can be completed. You don't need elitists to do it, just coordinated groups and talented individuals.

Quote

the hardest content NiM is now being farmed by the same elitist groups because they are so overgeared for this content

True, other master modes are relatively easy right now, at least if you consider DPS checks. Healing checks still seem to be there, and some bosses feel more challenging to heal than before. Tanks also need to think more about their DCD usage than before. I'd say that the groups who could do MM operations in 6.3 would feel they are a little easier. Compared to 7.0 they are a lot easier. If anything, the gear available in R-4 does make the other MMs much more accessible to the more casual raiders.

Quote

some groups i know killed 2nd and 3rd boss in R4 over 70 times just to get geared and unless you were part of the elitist groups

You would need to clear Watchdog and Lord Kanoth on VM a total of 13 times each to get a full set of 340 gear + implants for one character/class. Of course a full 340 purple set would give a little bit more power, but that increase will not make the difference between clearing IP-CPT and Dominique, or not. For tanks it's a little bit more, but for tanks it does not matter what bosses you're clearing, as blues are mostly best-in-slot for now. Although it might be good if MM endbosses dropped tokens, that would encourage running MM operations for other than vanity reasons. Just spare Nefra from a horrible slaughter.

Quote

you really have driven a huge wedge between the casual subscribers an the elitist community

How so? Why does content aimed at endgame PvE players affect the more casual players? I've seen more casual groups struggle on content that's objectively much less challenging, such as KP VM, and that has not caused a wedge between players, skilled or otherwise.

Quote

the elitist community that normally disappear once they have their achievements

Frankly, there's an ebb and flow to MMO subscribers. I'd argue the more casual playerbase, such as strictly story players, have less reason to stay subscribed than many of the endgame players. Many leave when the content ends either way. Still, those groups working their way up there usually end up subscribing for years.

Still, I think I can guess what you're getting at. So why don't we play with the idea a little and say all operations and difficulty modes were tuned similar to DF SM right now. That'd make all content pretty accessible to all players, even the very casual ones, right? So anyone could just gather a group from fleet and go grab whatever they wanted from current master modes, eg. timers, achievements, mounts etc? All operation titles and mounts would lose the little vanity value they have left, considering all the sales going around the past years.

How long would the raiding playerbase endure? I would say weeks, maybe a couple of months tops. And that's not just the "elitist" community. That's everyone who challenged themselves with VMs and MMs. Any VM capable team could crunch through all of the operations in a week, that will get very old very fast and they'll move on.

11 hours ago, ebcbrakes said:

casual subscribers keep the game alive whilst NiM elitists have their 12 month break after getting their achievements and disappear for their break from swtor

I don't quite agree with this. Most players take breaks, be it long or short, but there are many reasons and often they are personal. Remember 4.0, when BW took their new direction with "Doubling down on story"? That was a disaster and plummeted SWTOR playerbase massively, even with all the subscriber rewards and whatnot. Dumbed down gameplay (you could quite literally basic attack your way through the leveling and chapters) and only chapter stories did not keep the players engaged. MMOs are about balance, SWTOR needs the story, it needs the PvP, it needs the exploration and it needs operations, even challenging ones.

[SteveTheCynic]

4 hours ago, Arsq said:

Historically the best PvE gear has been available from the newest or the most challenging operations, so this is not a new concept. With 6.0 expansion it was different, but in 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0... All of these expansions had the best gear coming from operations. Usually Master modes, or Veteran modes (or NiM & HM respectively).

5.0 made 248s available to everyone with enough patience to farm the GC crates, and for augments (above 228, that is), you just had to acquire the components and craft them yourself.

[ZUHFB]

17 hours ago, ebcbrakes said:

2nd and 3rd boss in R4 over 70 times

Hmmmmmmm. HMMMMMMMM.

okay: the bosses drop two purple tokens, and 8 blue tokens in total. 5 Blue tokens are required to get a 340 piece and since some 340 pieces cannot be obtained from 2nd and 3rd boss and its good for tanks let's just say it's 100% effective and equivalent gear. 

70 runs of two bosses means 4 purple tokens (=20 blue tokens) and 16 actual blue tokens which is 32 Tokens per Run, with 70 runs it's 2240 tokens. 

One full 340 set requires 12x5 tokens which is 60.

2240/60=37.3 PLAYERS fully geared.

so, very likely option 1: you're lying and just mad bc you don't have 340

OR

option 2: the team is really, really, really, really, really, really bad with handling gearing and threw away every token

 

 

Or you know, the obvious reason they did 70 runs... the wings. But hey, as a "member of the elitist community" I can assure you that I absolutely do not care about gear anymore. 336 is basically the same anyway, thinking that makes a difference is a delusion.

Just get over it already

[Toraak]

16 hours ago, Christie_Swift said:

How? Can you elaborate "without having much to do"? means?

They aren't wrong actually. Most people pugged NiM Nefra to death during 7.0 and shortly after, so having 330 gear, and being capped at 1200 Op-1 mats (which Almost everyone I know is, just from farming tech frags in SM Ops. All you need to do is upgrade 5 pieces. 1 Earpiece, 2 relics, and 2 other pieces for the Hyde/Zeek quest. If done correctly people could have been in 336 gear with 900-1,200 Op-1 mats (which most people that do any raiding already had).

[Chryptyk]

35 minutes ago, Toraak said:

They aren't wrong actually. Most people pugged NiM Nefra to death during 7.0 and shortly after, so having 330 gear, and being capped at 1200 Op-1 mats (which Almost everyone I know is, just from farming tech frags in SM Ops. All you need to do is upgrade 5 pieces. 1 Earpiece, 2 relics, and 2 other pieces for the Hyde/Zeek quest. If done correctly people could have been in 336 gear with 900-1,200 Op-1 mats (which most people that do any raiding already had).

i'm one of those.  i had all mats maxed and rakatas still in storage and unlocked 336 in 5 min, even though i didn't need to for my primary pieces, but i did reconfigure my off specs' gear to 336 simply because i could.  all on the first day.

 

however, i think they are talking about people who don't raid a lot and didn't have all the mats maxed out.  it's like the beginning of 7.0 again.  you just gotta farm the mats.  the path is clear.  annoying and inconvenient for some, but clear.  the good news is you don't need to be able to do a nim boss anymore.  i know many of the people here can do it easily, but there are a lot of people that cannot.  they can get around that by buying a piece of rakata straight from the vendor now though.  so overall, it has gotten easier to gear up.  you just gotta do the mats grind.

[ebcbrakes]

3 hours ago, ZUHFB said:

option 2: the team is really, really, really, really, really, really bad with handling gearing and threw away every token

no they have fully geared everyone of their toons and most have crap loads of hm tokens spare , i know 1 guy has 60 hm tokens and a few purple token with no use for !!!!!!

 

the reason most casuals do not complain about these issues is like here the elitist brigade start bullying and harassing saying they are the only ones that should have the gear , NiM operations are a joke dps is 3 times above the dps check , but to be honest it is clear that this will get brushed away , all the crap been posted i have seen before in my 11 years on here an i dont post alot cause the way elitists make you feel , DEV's you really have messed game and gearing up but its ok cause elitists say its ok an working as they want

[Chryptyk]

tbf, there's only a few people like that.  they're just really loud and obnoxious.  i agree gearing is messed up.  i may not like it, but i can do what's necessary to get to a comfortable place with it.  the problem with the necessary part is it has taken the fun out of the game.  ya add in all the nerfs.  all the unfixed bugs, some of which are very impactful (dead bug, infinite load screens being the first 2 on my list).  it has me wondering is it even worth it anymore.....

[OlBuzzard]

@ebcbrakes There is a lot to be said about the number of people who really do try to make it sound like that if a player is not up to speed then the problem is all on the player.  And you are (for the most part) correct.  

@Chryptyk ... I also agree with a part of what you are saying as well.

Overall, the idea of having better rewards for those who attempt Raids and advanced areas of just about any MMO is pretty much the normal.  Nothing wrong with that.  That said ...  the nomenclature of said rewards has a lot to do with how that affects the average person.  BTW...  I did NOT say affects those who are interested only in what is now referred to (in SWTOR) as "story mode".  Somehow, casual players (and solo players) seemed to have been collectively merged into one group: "story mode".  IMO this is a huge mistake.
** Some players that are solo really do enjoy a good challenge.   Some solo players want a TOUGH challenge... and still others really are just interested in the story itself.
** Casual players:  some really do want a good game ...  and others are just interested in the story itself.

Sooooo   all of these groups (casuals, solo, and others) are told to that if they want "X/Y/Z" gear that it MUST be found in either group or raids scenarios (ONLY) !!!  REALLY??

@SteveTheCynic you are quite correct again...  as usual (man I love to read your stuff).  

As for me personally ...  let me find a way to earn some 334 (blue) stuff.  (Without taking the next year to do it).  I've intentionally grounded nearly 1/2 of my alts until I can get some better stuff.

OH ... and for the record.  Another reason some of us have not said too much about this matter of gearing up ... Frankly it's out of respect to people like @JackieKo.  Heck... they worked hard to make 7.2 work.  And (for the most part) it without question one of the best releases we've had in a LONG, LONG time.  I don't take that for granted.  I sincerely hope that they (BW team) really do get that.

It should also be noted that the Heroics (particularly Manaan and now the new ones)  are very difficult (at best) to plow through.  I like them ... but would prefer to not have the expense of repairs and the absolute slog (time consuming) that I'm dealing with.  There is one place in the Herics area with TWO (gold star) Mobs ... I die there every time without question.  Even some of the trash mobs can be slow plowing through.  I don't mind the work ... but heck even the interrupts don't seem to work worth a ...  well you get the idea.   ( I can't help but to wonder how much lag affects those short interrupts).

I don't need BiS to survive.  BUT 334 (blue) should be enough to work (I think).

Anyways ... I'm sure that most everyone has heard enough from the old man today.  I'll be online in a bit.   Stuff to do!  (More rugs to earn).

[ZUHFB]

2 hours ago, ebcbrakes said:

no they have fully geared everyone of their toons and most have crap loads of hm tokens spare , i know 1 guy has 60 hm tokens and a few purple token with no use for !!!!!!

 

the reason most casuals do not complain about these issues is like here the elitist brigade start bullying and harassing saying they are the only ones that should have the gear , NiM operations are a joke dps is 3 times above the dps check , but to be honest it is clear that this will get brushed away , all the crap been posted i have seen before in my 11 years on here an i dont post alot cause the way elitists make you feel , DEV's you really have messed game and gearing up but its ok cause elitists say its ok an working as they want

how exactly are nim operations are joke AND R-4 gearing bad at the same time, if you clear NiM and you're bored than R-4 is a walk in the park honestly. Then just go and clear R-4 if the NiM dps checks are so easy.

[eabevella]

I still think the Tokens needed for buying/upgrading gears are stupid: why would I need FP tokens to upgrade OPs gears? What about "play the contents you like"?

But at least there's the mods vendor now and that makes getting gears 90% more painless compared to 7.0 (which is the stupidest thing happened in this game).