So, you are actually removing Unranked and forcing everybody to participate in ranked!

[Katushe]

I just finished to read the article about 7.2. So, you are taking everybody that does PVP and force them in participating in these point-based system in which winning is 3 times more rewarding than losing.

So, players that try to do PVP just to kill some time will be the most hated entities in the PVP matches. You say that you remove ranked, when actually you push the ranked toxicity in something that could be fun as long as hard-core earners and overambitious e-sport participants (I hope you notice I avoid calling them "players") had their separate meetings where they could be isolated by their own ego.

Already the galactic season increased the toxicity in unranked pvp. The 3 times difference between losing and winning in the weekly was compensated by the fact that the weekly had rewards low enough to be ignored. That made unranked actually fun at times. But, NO! You have to have PVP in which people argue, fight, curse each-other and bash each other for entering in PVE gear or not performing as others expect, others that feel entitled to be in a team with same goals as theirs.

Fun?! Other kinds of fun than chasing victories?! God forbid! This is a sport! Not a game! Oh, wait....

[RikuvonDrake]

bioware wants you to play to win on order to foster a more positive environment in pvp, if you like that or not is largely irrelevant

[krackcommando]

7 hours ago, Katushe said:

Already the galactic season increased the toxicity in unranked pvp.

I was still playing during that first GS season. I have to agree, the influx of GS players made things noticeably more chippy. GS players who wanted nothing to do with PvP were funneled into WZs. they didn't know what they were doing. they got ragged on by reg stars. they got globalled by dmg farmers and DMers. I don't know what else to say here except on SF, the WZs were palpably more chippy.

[Prapcaster]

7 hours ago, RikuvonDrake said:

bioware wants you to play to win on order to foster a more positive environment in pvp, if you like that or not is largely irrelevant

Not entirely. The bulk of the rewards for the new pvp seasons are in match acievments like damage medals. Sure there's a few milestones for winning but there's still little to no incentive.

[krackcommando]

13 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

Not entirely. The bulk of the rewards for the new pvp seasons are in match acievments like damage medals. Sure there's a few milestones for winning but there's still little to no incentive.

it looks like at least twice as many points/currency for winning based on that dev post thread with the external link. there is "incentive," but it's also the kind of incentive that encourages weak players to continue suffering to mine their "prize."

not that there's anything wrong with that. I just don't think it will affect the way dmg farming and DMing work for those who currently queue up for that purpose.

Edited December 10, 2022 by krackcommando

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

14 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

it looks like at least twice as many points/currency for winning based on that dev post thread with the external link. there is "incentive," but it's also the kind of incentive that encourages weak players to continue suffering to mine their "prize."

not that there's anything wrong with that. I just don't think it will affect the way dmg farming and DMing work for those who currently queue up for that purpose.

People don't mind afking in gsf to complete weekly, even if it takes longer, so it's going to be the same here, ppl will run and press, I mean click a few abilities to get some medals, and then just sit in a corner stealthed. I mean why play anyway, if you can get rewards afking while playing an actually fun game on another window or something?  😄

[krackcommando]

5 hours ago, Mycroft-Tarkin said:

People don't mind afking in gsf to complete weekly, even if it takes longer, so it's going to be the same here, ppl will run and press, I mean click a few abilities to get some medals, and then just sit in a corner stealthed. I mean why play anyway, if you can get rewards afking while playing an actually fun game on another window or something?  😄

I never saw much of a problem there. maybe it happened when I wasn't playing. I took a year off late in 5.x and early 6.x. players AFKing was literally the least problematic thing I encountered. I would say near the end of 6.x (last time I played swtor - rip), the worst thing about regs was the high percentage of players ignoring objectives, coupled with an influx of GS players not knowing how to play and the inability to just leave a match or map.

just one of those things was only a minor annoyance, but all three together got to the point where it wasn't worth playing anymore.

desync also seemed infinitely worse when I came back in 6.x and was only playing regs.

[Jarbarian]

On 12/9/2022 at 1:46 PM, RikuvonDrake said:

bioware wants you to play to win on order to foster a more positive environment in pvp, if you like that or not is largely irrelevant

Not true at all.  Extremely hard to "play to win" when the classes are completely unbalanced and ranked pvp groups in unranked are going to wipe the floor with the casual players.

Basically what Bioware did was create a far more toxic PVP environment further pushing many casual PVP players to remove the game and quit.  Then only hardcore PVP players will be left.

That sort of explains why Blizzard is so much better at PVP than BIoware. At least they make an effort to foster ranked/unranked PVP and constantly push out new maps. How long has it been since Bioware released a new PVP map?  Has to be at least 5+ years.

Bioware has no love for PVP, class balance and fostering fun PVP.  Never have, never will.

[septru]

1 hour ago, Jarbarian said:

Bioware has no love for PVP, class balance and fostering fun PVP.  Never have, never will.

I agree. The biggest problem with 7.2 is that it allows operatives to exist.

 

The operative class should be deleted from the game, AND anyone that played operative should be banned. 

 

Maybe then, and only then, will SWTOR PvP rise to its true potential. 

 

#nerfoperative

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, septru said:

The operative class should be deleted from the game, AND anyone that played operative should be banned. 

heh

my least favorite rated/arena experiences were usually late night when the only ppl in the queue were stealth...and me. nothing like looking around the map and being the only targetable player. not fun. I know you enjoy the challenge of being a jugg whose job is to not die. but jfc, they needed to restrict class stacking in their matchmaker.

[Bigfallenstar]

3 hours ago, Jarbarian said:

Not true at all.  Extremely hard to "play to win" when the classes are completely unbalanced and ranked pvp groups in unranked are going to wipe the floor with the casual players.

Basically what Bioware did was create a far more toxic PVP environment further pushing many casual PVP players to remove the game and quit.  Then only hardcore PVP players will be left.

That sort of explains why Blizzard is so much better at PVP than BIoware. At least they make an effort to foster ranked/unranked PVP and constantly push out new maps. How long has it been since Bioware released a new PVP map?  Has to be at least 5+ years.

Bioware has no love for PVP, class balance and fostering fun PVP.  Never have, never will.

PvP has always been unbalanced. At least that's what people been saying for years now. Which makes me wonder if they haven't fixed it by now, what makes you think they are going to fix it? In reality, it's people who just can't hack it and lost a fight to an enemy with only 7% hp left. Are there meta classes? Sure, but it's not like they are the end all be all. You don't see an vengeance jugg 1v7 a team and come out with only 85% hp left. Which begs another question: do you know what you're doing when attacking someone, or just running headlong and hoping for the best?

 

And how do you know for sure that this will push casual pvp players away and quit? Did you ask any of them? Plus, using Blizzard as an example doesn't carry much weight as you think it does.

[Jarbarian]

1 hour ago, Bigfallenstar said:

PvP has always been unbalanced. At least that's what people been saying for years now. Which makes me wonder if they haven't fixed it by now, what makes you think they are going to fix it? In reality, it's people who just can't hack it and lost a fight to an enemy with only 7% hp left. Are there meta classes? Sure, but it's not like they are the end all be all. You don't see an vengeance jugg 1v7 a team and come out with only 85% hp left. Which begs another question: do you know what you're doing when attacking someone, or just running headlong and hoping for the best?

 

And how do you know for sure that this will push casual pvp players away and quit? Did you ask any of them? Plus, using Blizzard as an example doesn't carry much weight as you think it does.

Yes and they're already talking about quitting.

[SaerethDL]

5 hours ago, septru said:

I agree. The biggest problem with 7.2 is that it allows operatives to exist.

 

The operative class should be deleted from the game, AND anyone that played operative should be banned. 

 

Maybe then, and only then, will SWTOR PvP rise to its true potential. 

 

#nerfoperative

agreed

[krackcommando]

6 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

And how do you know for sure that this will push casual pvp players away and quit? Did you ask any of them?

we have precedent for what happens when you're allowed to construct an entire 8m team of your own choosing in WZs. it was called Rated War Zones Preseason. everybody and their brother made teams. 3-5 weeks later, all of about 3 or 4 guilds could be found in the queue. a night is gonna come when a dominant team shows up and just rolls everyone. it'll be fun to see how well the quitter debuff works, b/c without loss of rating, I'd expect ppl to quit matches left and right when the see 8 players with <insert rated players guild name>.

[Raazmir]

35 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

we have precedent for what happens when you're allowed to construct an entire 8m team of your own choosing in WZs. it was called Rated War Zones Preseason. everybody and their brother made teams. 3-5 weeks later, all of about 3 or 4 guilds could be found in the queue. a night is gonna come when a dominant team shows up and just rolls everyone. it'll be fun to see how well the quitter debuff works, b/c without loss of rating, I'd expect ppl to quit matches left and right when the see 8 players with <insert rated players guild name>.

This is how i can tell when people weren't around for "rated warzones preseason"   There were twice as many  guilds making plans for ranked as you claim on Bergeron Colony a low population roleplay server  during ranked preseason.  The doom spiral of ranked began with the lack of cross server, followed by baiting and switching everyone who had spent actual money to server transfer (Because no cross server) into an arena format, blowing up well over half the pvp guilds immediately and more in the months to come.

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, Raazmir said:

This is how i can tell when people weren't around for "rated warzones preseason"   There were twice as many  guilds making plans for ranked as you claim on Bergeron Colony a low population roleplay server  during ranked preseason.  The doom spiral of ranked began with the lack of cross server, followed by baiting and switching everyone who had spent actual money to server transfer (Because no cross server) into an arena format, blowing up well over half the pvp guilds immediately and more in the months to come.

kek

yeah. you got me. I wasn't around for 8v8 ranked. I'm totally making this up. 🙄

The reason x-server was necessary was because the queues shrunk to nothing after the first month.

casual teams aren't going to keep queuing when they constantly get their stuff pushed in.

Edited December 12, 2022 by krackcommando
casuals

[Jarbarian]

In anticipation of ranked being removed, now groups of 3 ranked in a 4v4 are even ignoring their own "stepchild" and not even supporting/healing them.  So what we're getting is these snobby ranked players in unranked PVP acting like complete jerks.

Thanks Bioware. You thought ranked PVP was bad, you brought that elite TRASH to unraked.  I guarantee you the fallout from this idiotic decision is going to cause a lot more players to GTFO and leave.

[Jarbarian]

18 hours ago, septru said:

I agree. The biggest problem with 7.2 is that it allows operatives to exist.

The operative class should be deleted from the game, AND anyone that played operative should be banned. 

Maybe then, and only then, will SWTOR PvP rise to its true potential. 

#nerfoperative

The problem, again, is BioWare couldn't care less about PVP. They have never done anything about OP Operatives (their healing alone is OP, yet they nerf Slingers very weak hot).  They balance everything around PVE (which a lot of us personally could care less!) so really, BioWare is shooting themselves in the foot.

Now PVP is going to be even more toxic, and you watch, people are going to bail on this game for good, having asked for fair PVP and classes and being ignored for years.  

There are better games out there to play where paying customers are actually LISTENED to.  This isn't one of them.

[Bullyabass]

Introducing specific rewards for grouping is exactly the wrong thing to do to increase pvp participation. It adds a further hurdle to people starting out in pvp who are unlikely to be welcome in existing groups.

Introducing 8 person teams hands warzones over to premades. Someone starting out in pvp will be instantly and repeatedly destroyed by number farming premades.

7.2 pvp will be a miserable experience for anyone other than a small clique of number farming premades who will eventually get bored as their supply of easy kills dries up

[Jarbarian]

17 minutes ago, Bullyabass said:

Introducing specific rewards for grouping is exactly the wrong thing to do to increase pvp participation. It adds a further hurdle to people starting out in pvp who are unlikely to be welcome in existing groups.

Introducing 8 person teams hands warzones over to premades. Someone starting out in pvp will be instantly and repeatedly destroyed by number farming premades.

7.2 pvp will be a miserable experience for anyone other than a small clique of number farming premades who will eventually get bored as their supply of easy kills dries up

Not to mention the drop off in players when players get discouraged.  This is why premade groups should never ever be allowed in un-ranked PVP.
Neither should crafted CC's be allowed, but for some reason, Bioware doesn't see the irony in that.

[septru]

21 minutes ago, Bullyabass said:

Introducing specific rewards for grouping is exactly the wrong thing to do to increase pvp participation. It adds a further hurdle to people starting out in pvp who are unlikely to be welcome in existing groups.

 

Finally someone that understands. Making friends is hard. Anyone that plays with a friend is toxic, and that has nothing to do with the fact that I was picked last for everything and bullied as a kid. Premades undermine my safe space. It should be bAnNeD!!!!

Edited December 12, 2022 by septru

[Bullyabass]

Just now, septru said:

Finally someone that understands. Making friends is hard. Everyone is soooo toxic, and that has nothing to do with the fact that I was picked last for everything as a kid. Rewarding premades undermines my safe space. It should be bAnNeD!!!!

Needing to find "friends" in an online game suggests you are the one who struggles with forming real relationships. Possibly that's why it's your go to attack when you try to offend people.

Some people just want to play a fun game in their down time without any big commitments. They may actually enjoy a bit of space away from dealing with people and real life drama. And they're perfectly happy to compete, they just don't want to have to organise a "team" to do so. 

As for safe spaces, hiding in a premade is the ultimate safe space.

[-Garmonbozia]

5 hours ago, Jarbarian said:

In anticipation of ranked being removed, now groups of 3 ranked in a 4v4 are even ignoring their own "stepchild" and not even supporting/healing them.  So what we're getting is these snobby ranked players in unranked PVP acting like complete jerks.

To be fair, it's obvious pretty quickly if the random 4th even IS supportable. As someone who mains support, if they don't know how to hit a dcd properly, don't understand that they shouldn't just stand in the open if they have other options and eat damage to death, that support is better used on players who are going to live to win the arena. Wasting it on someone who's only going to die anyway during an opener, can just result in losing a useful team member, and then the match as well. It's called triage. And it's not about the 4th being a 'stepchild,' it's about having tactical understanding of the situation.

[-Garmonbozia]

5 hours ago, Bullyabass said:

Introducing specific rewards for grouping is exactly the wrong thing to do to increase pvp participation. It adds a further hurdle to people starting out in pvp who are unlikely to be welcome in existing groups.

Introducing 8 person teams hands warzones over to premades. Someone starting out in pvp will be instantly and repeatedly destroyed by number farming premades.

7.2 pvp will be a miserable experience for anyone other than a small clique of number farming premades who will eventually get bored as their supply of easy kills dries up

I absolutely agree that choosing to allow 8-man premades will at least initially have the opposite affect intended, causing increased toxicity, and more insurmountable odds for the casual player. Whether or not that will taper off, remains to be seen.

 

Personally, as a number farmer myself, the last thing I actually want is easy kills. Why? If you're dead, my uptime is lessened. Some of our favorite games are when we come up against another similarly skilled premade.

[Jarbarian]

55 minutes ago, -Garmonbozia said:

I absolutely agree that choosing to allow 8-man premades will at least initially have the opposite affect intended, causing increased toxicity, and more insurmountable odds for the casual player. Whether or not that will taper off, remains to be seen.

 

Personally, as a number farmer myself, the last thing I actually want is easy kills. Why? If you're dead, my uptime is lessened. Some of our favorite games are when we come up against another similarly skilled premade.

Yes, premades in unranked is going to turn a lot of players away from SWTOR, but Bioware doesn't care.  It's not the cash cow it used to be anyway since they really left PVP for dead.  (aka: OP 1v1 classes like operatives just rick rolling everyone and now, balance sages way too OP, yet they nerfed Slingers to the ground).

The problem with #2 above is a lot of premades don't even care about DPS #s. They care about "How badly can we embarrass the other team and make myself look superior?"

That's what it comes down to.  ePeen contests that has already destroyed what enjoyment we used to have in the game.