Follow-ups on PvP in 7.2

[TmoneyTime]

We all know the real reason that ranked was viewed as a toxic pool of players. It all comes down to population.

Ranked had a system that only worked correctly if there were thousands of players playing at once. 4s and 8s had the same problems. There was not enough population to support the system as it was setup. Leading to various different ways to exploit the ranked system. Win Trading, Vote kick, Real Money Transactions, cheating, throwing, etc. 

It comes down to an overall percentage of the Ranked community that did these things causing the downfall of the entire system.

For instance if 1 player out of 1,000 uses some exploit or unintended game mechanic, Its not that bad. But with the current population it more closely resembles 1 out of 50.

 

The real issue ranked has always had is a declining population, That caused it to frankly not work as intended. Its not just a ranked issue its a game wide issue. We all can see the writing on the wall. SWTOR doesn't have much time left. Just enjoy it while its still around at this point.

[krackcommando]

5 hours ago, slowdude said:

Personally, I don't care as much about the toxicity of ranked players in arenas as I do about their presence in warzones. That's where their toxicity and destructive influence is visible to anyone who has not played a single ranked arena. Don't mess with us, noobs, but we will flood the warzones. The "I pay my subscription and do what I want" argument works or doesn't work both ways.

this is fair.

5 hours ago, imthespamman said:

A big part of the people "ruining" your regs didnt even play ranked.

this is kinda true too. obviously anyone with a flair played ranked, but the ranked players mostly only ran regs when arenas weren't popping. you could browse twitch every night and find ppl playing in grps and solo in regs just doing damage. there was this one grp with a female healer who sqeaked and laughed and it was like nails on a chalkboard in my head, so I didn't stay long. but they were well better skilled than most regs while they gleefully ignored the win conditions of the map. they where just out there to blow stuff up and laugh about silly things they did to each other in the WZ (more than one grp in their disc).

my point is these ppl also "pay their sub and do what they want," and they get conflated with rated players.

3 hours ago, Chedica said:

I know the "modern", idiotic way of thinking is "i exist therefore i should be celebrated and affirmed by the entire world" but that's really not how life works. You want the good stuff? Work hard, better yourself, make a difference, it'll pay off, in life and in a videogame.

 it has been institutionalized at this point. not kidding. but don't wanna get another warning or whatever the mark thing is called. 😄

 

2 hours ago, septru said:

Who are ranked elite toxic overlords because they wear a flair (but not flags  ).

speaking of institutionalizing things...I still cannot get my head around BW ever creating these things. even the sound they make says, "F-you! I just stuck my saber up your butt, and now I'm going to rub your nose in poop."

[krackcommando]

1 hour ago, TmoneyTime said:

We all know the real reason that ranked was viewed as a toxic pool of players. It all comes down to population.

Ranked had a system that only worked correctly if there were thousands of players playing at once. 4s and 8s had the same problems. There was not enough population to support the system as it was setup. Leading to various different ways to exploit the ranked system. Win Trading, Vote kick, Real Money Transactions, cheating, throwing, etc. 

It comes down to an overall percentage of the Ranked community that did these things causing the downfall of the entire system.

For instance if 1 player out of 1,000 uses some exploit or unintended game mechanic, Its not that bad. But with the current population it more closely resembles 1 out of 50.

 

The real issue ranked has always had is a declining population, That caused it to frankly not work as intended. Its not just a ranked issue its a game wide issue. We all can see the writing on the wall. SWTOR doesn't have much time left. Just enjoy it while its still around at this point.

also fair.

not sure why I needed to quote instead of just hitting like. and now I've typed all this out and I'm still going to press 'submit reply.'

things that make you go hmm.

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, slowdude said:

But you seem to have written somewhere that casuals do not deserve same prizes for participation,

tbf, the argument is that casuals who do not reach the same achievements should not receive the same rewards. which is no different from saying you shouldn't get the same reward for completing story mode ops that you get for NiM ops. that doesn't mean you shouldn't get your reward for SM. just...you know...not the same as HM or NiM. that's the argument against participation trophies. giving participants a ribbon is fine. giving them the same gold medal as the winner? not so much. everything you get for winning can be achieved by participation. unless I'm missing something? all of my exclusive stuff from earlier seasons went up for participation grinders a year ago (replica vendors).

[Bigfallenstar]

7 hours ago, assatrap said:

Now ofc there are a-holes in every gamemode... even with vet Hammerstation so that goes without saying. The only time it get really toxic with ranked:

Entitled newbies who refuses to listen and follow instructions from the veterans:
"I pay for this game = I'M EnTiTLeD To PlAy how I WaNt"

and its pretty obvious on this thread who has those issues. Or people who are clearly undergeared, clueless and just there to farm "crystals" etc.  So essentially its the "entitled" behaviour from newbies is what triggers ranked player who pour in hundreds of hours to perfect hone their skills and effort to climb the ladders. If a newbie is clearly there wanting to get better and does it best to follow instructions&tips he/she would encounter minimum toxicity if none. A whole season can get destroyed in 2-3 games sometimes by these entitle newbies.

Now lets translate that analogy&logic for the PVE try hards to make it relateable:

Arrogant newbie manages to get into a "NiM Raid":
Gear 324, wrong utilities and tacticals: very limited knowledge of the operation and having a hard time following Raid Leaders instructions. Because =
I PAYED FOR THIS GAME I'M A SUB IM ENTITLED TO PLAY HOW I WANT.

" I don't care the players here at at the top of their game and expert on their class and knowledge of the operation". I do what I want.

= then wonders why there is toxicity 

That says more about the team itself than anything. You're telling me that the other seven can't defeat a boss or clear trash despite one player not being supposed geared correctly? Same for ranked. If they are as good as they like to claim they are, then it shouldn't matter going 3v4.

[Nee-Elder]

29 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

tbf, the argument is that casuals who do not reach the same achievements should not receive the same rewards. which is no different from saying you shouldn't get the same reward for completing story mode ops that you get for NiM ops. that doesn't mean you shouldn't get your reward for SM. just...you know...not the same as HM or NiM.

that's the argument against participation trophies.

giving participants a ribbon is fine. giving them the same gold medal as the winner? not so much.

Just wanna say i totally  agree with that ^ point.  ( i ran out of  *clicky likes* on these new forums lol ugh )

i'm truly baffled as to why BioWare, a company who seems to thrive on spewing out  re-skin after Cartel re-$kin ,  couldn't spend just a few more hours of coding time to  CHANGE  all the  Ranked rewards  for 7.2  'Seasons'  grind/participation  versions.

[septru]

1 minute ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Same for ranked. If they are as good as they like to claim they are, then it shouldn't matter going 3v4.

yup. if that top3 player is actually good, he should be able to 1v4 4 other top3 players and carry me because im a sandbag. otherwise he's a wintrader. obviously. 

[JediMasterAlex]

6 minutes ago, Bigfallenstar said:

That says more about the team itself than anything. You're telling me that the other seven can't defeat a boss or clear trash despite one player not being supposed geared correctly? Same for ranked. If they are as good as they like to claim they are, then it shouldn't matter going 3v4.

That's just wishful thinking. This is mmo pvp, where everyone is bound by a gcd. In fps games like counter-strike that require way more skill, good players can 1v5. That kind of thing is rarely possible in mmo pvp unless the skill disparity is extremely large.

[Weswhitebore]

33 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

tbf, the argument is that casuals who do not reach the same achievements should not receive the same rewards. which is no different from saying you shouldn't get the same reward for completing story mode ops that you get for NiM ops. that doesn't mean you shouldn't get your reward for SM. just...you know...not the same as HM or NiM. that's the argument against participation trophies. giving participants a ribbon is fine. giving them the same gold medal as the winner? not so much. everything you get for winning can be achieved by participation. unless I'm missing something? all of my exclusive stuff from earlier seasons went up for participation grinders a year ago (replica vendors).

Yes, yes, you get what you earned. Completely agreed with.

 

3 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

i'm truly baffled as to why BioWare, a company who seems to thrive on spewing out  re-skin after Cartel re-$kin ,  couldn't spend just a few more hours of coding time to  CHANGE  all the  Ranked rewards  for 7.2  'Seasons'  grind/participation  versions.

Ikr???? It's like they refuse to spend more time creating good looking original items, which would boost participation, incentive, Subs, and more instead of just ripping skins, taking peoples hard earned rewards, handing them out like candy, and outfits from characters that already exist in Star Wars lore or making outfits that look like homeless people dressed in trash bags, like the new PVP track armor, though the light strips are nice. This also correlates to the economy in a way and how they won't even make a re-skin for or put back up much needed Cartel items, like the Gamaorean Axe, the CZ weapons, Mask of Nhilus, I haven't seen the White Scalene armor in awhile, at one point even decorations like the Sith Lords bundle was gone. Speaking of Decoration related things, they could add more Strongholds like the highly requested Oricon SH, a temple on Korriban or a penthouse on Zakuul.  Maybe they could even make it where other players have permission, with a silver or gold key, the edit another person's stronghold. They could make some new credit sinks easily. Maybe a new companion with an original story that has to do with previous planets or expand upon our current companions, people love interacting with their companions. Where is the Sith content for a expansion called Legacy of the SITH. I support Mandalorian lore, and I know the popularity, Runik and R-4 were great original ideas of areas and Operations so there is some talent for original ideas there, it just needs to be expanded on, like on Elom with Darth Null. Fashion after-all is becoming the true end game, so they should funnel the CC market with good original stuff and at least attempt on making good looking items, like the new Cartel weapons they just made.

 

[krackcommando]

59 minutes ago, Weswhitebore said:

Yes, yes, you get what you earned. Completely agreed with.

 

Ikr???? It's like they refuse to spend more time creating good looking original items, which would boost participation, incentive, Subs, and more instead of just ripping skins, taking peoples hard earned rewards, handing them out like candy, and outfits from characters that already exist in Star Wars lore or making outfits that look like homeless people dressed in trash bags, like the new PVP track armor, though the light strips are nice. This also correlates to the economy in a way and how they won't even make a re-skin for or put back up much needed Cartel items, like the Gamaorean Axe, the CZ weapons, Mask of Nhilus, I haven't seen the White Scalene armor in awhile, at one point even decorations like the Sith Lords bundle was gone. Speaking of Decoration related things, they could add more Strongholds like the highly requested Oricon SH, a temple on Korriban or a penthouse on Zakuul.  Maybe they could even make it where other players have permission, with a silver or gold key, the edit another person's stronghold. They could make some new credit sinks easily. Maybe a new companion with an original story that has to do with previous planets or expand upon our current companions, people love interacting with their companions. Where is the Sith content for a expansion called Legacy of the SITH. I support Mandalorian lore, and I know the popularity, Runik and R-4 were great original ideas of areas and Operations so there is some talent for original ideas there, it just needs to be expanded on, like on Elom with Darth Null. Fashion after-all is becoming the true end game, so they should funnel the CC market with good original stuff and at least attempt on making good looking items, like the new Cartel weapons they just made.

 

of all the stuff like this, I'd say I was most "furious" about the furious sets, the weapons in particular. they were distinctive and bad ass. better than any flair (and I think the flairs were a nice touch). so of course everybody got them.

have the "wings" (tentacles?) gone on the CM yet? last I remember, BW noticed ppl were getting them "too easily" so they jacked up the difficulty or something. (I don't raid so I don't remember how they remedied it)

[slowdude]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

tbf, the argument is that casuals who do not reach the same achievements should not receive the same rewards

Have the wintraders and cheaters devalued the rank rewards enough to worry about this? No one took their toys from them, resetting the rank of some is simply not serious.  Yes, legit players will not like this, but the ranked community is known to be quite tolerant of such behavior if the player is good.

[Weswhitebore]

7 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

have the "wings" (tentacles?) gone on the CM yet? last I remember, BW noticed ppl were getting them "too easily" so they jacked up the difficulty or something. (I don't raid so I don't remember how they remedied it)

Nope. People still prog nim DF and continue to raid for Brontes Wings of the Architect, Timed Run, and Title "Gate Crasher" title. One of the few things they haven't done is give away Nim raiding rewards for participation......yet.

7 minutes ago, slowdude said:

 No one took their toys from them, resetting the rank of some is simply not serious. 

Last time I checked, Bioware does not go in and take things from people's accounts for any reason at all, nor do they add things or change things. I think it violates one of their agreements with the User or is a policy upheld and enforced on all members of staff to include Devs and Customer Service representatives.

[krackcommando]

1 minute ago, slowdude said:

Have the wintraders and cheaters devalued the rank rewards enough to worry about this? No one took their toys from them, resetting the rank of some is simply not serious.  Yes, legit players will not like this, but the ranked community is known to be quite tolerant of such behavior if the player is good.

no.

the team queue was a bust. there's no policing that because it's so sparsely populated. the only players/teams I trusted on the leaderboard for team were caprica (b/c he's played enough with me to know him) and the players who stream their games b/c...i mean...streaming is pretty much the opposite of secretly inflating your rating.

I'm not personally concerned with top 3, nor do i think top 3 was ever very useful since it includes all servers without x-server queues (or x-faction for a long time). but even still, I'm nowhere near good enough to compete for it. I can tell you every platinum plate I've come across in rated and regs are well better than me, and I haven't come across any gold flairs that I can walk all over. so wherever all of this cheating is going on, it's not something that hovered around me in any meaningful way.

what did bother me, and bothers everyone in solo, is that you get paired with players who are worse than you, but you both win or lose together, so that creates a lot of anger at the person dragging down your team. when someone lashes out at said anchor, the anchor sometimes decides to to get back at the person who lost his temper by throwing games on him. tbf, I've done that myself. not proud of it, but sometimes you lose your cool. what sobered me, though? losing because someone else was doing it too (usually also against nik...who happened to be on my team when I hadn't lost my cool with him 😄). but even including those frustrating matches/nights, it wasn't like I wasn't going to get the tier I earned. I'm a pretty solid silver. sometimes high silver. sometimes low. or at least I was. I don't think I would've been gold if moophy hadn't thrown those 5 matches that one night (e.g.).

but if you really want problems with unearned prizes, i forget which season it was (s3 or s4?) I was a silver merc and PT, but I had like 3 or 4 mercs and PTs. when the prizes went out, my off meta dot spec PT that never set foot in an arena that season received the lizard mount that was supposed to go to gold players. personally, I thought the thing was ugly and didn't bother showing off. but that's BW for you. BW not only (apparently) doesn't respond to cheating reports, but they're incredibly incompetent with awarding things to the right ppl (as this has occurred in multiple other seasons).

iunno. other than that, my answer is no because I would rather have a league that's poorly run than not have a league at all.

[Nee-Elder]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

what did bother me, and bothers everyone in solo, is that you get paired with players who are worse than you, but you both win or lose together, so that creates a lot of anger at the person dragging down your team.

Sorry serious question but isn't it like practically impossible to ever not have  at least ONE player  "worse" than you and/or  rest of the team?

And how is it even possible to quantify such a thing, when  WZ's are so fluid & dynamic (and often times, random)  match-by-match ? -- I mean, even RL sports teams have like a "worst" player, but if that player fills their specific role & purpose, then all is fine, no?

Lastly,  those derogatory  terms like  "anchor" and "sandbag"  (and other words these new Forums won't let me type)  ...Aren't those terms  part of the whole toxic perception thing with Ranked?

Edited December 12, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: such a delicate issue

[Csjbo]

I would have rated Musco's post much higher if he just came out and said the reason for removing ranked and the leaderboards was because Bioware decided that ranked PVP was not worth allocating any more developer resources on. Evident by the last two years of no longer investigating win trading, totally botching the top 96 rewards of the final season, and allowing players to experience the longest competitive offseason in gaming history.

The idea of removing leaderboards and flagging to combat toxicity is patronizing and laughable. There have been so many players get banned for toxicity, only to be allowed back into SWTOR a couple weeks later where they engage in the same, toxic behavior. 

What is going to happen with 7.2 is that people are going to continue to experience toxicity in PVP, but because ranked is gone, and there is no flags or anything to really spot who is a ranked player and who is not....the community won't be able to scapegoat ranked players for all their frustrations in SWTOR PVP. 

[krackcommando]

19 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Sorry serious question but isn't it like practically impossible to ever not have  at least ONE player  "worse" than you and/or  rest of the team?

And how is it even possible to quantify such a thing, when  WZ's are so fluid & dynamic (and often times, random)  match-by-match ? -- I mean, even RL sports teams have like a "worst" player, but if that player fills their specific role & purpose, then all is fine, no?

Lastly,  those derogatory  terms like  "anchor" and "sandbag"  (and other words these new Forums won't let me type)  ...Aren't those terms  part of the whole toxic perception thing with Ranked?

every spec has a floor and a ceiling. when you play at higher levels (like NiM), the limits of each spec are important. you learn how much dmg a spec and and should take, how much dps it should do, how much prot, etc. in order to defeat the boss or win the match. you establish floors for each level as well. you need to perform at this minimum level (floor) in order to have any chance of succeeding. if a player on my team (or me! heh) doesn't reach that floor for his spec, then he's an instantly  dead weight.

but yes, it's also human nature even if he's just worse than you to blame....just not what I meant.

edit: if anchor offends you then put me on ignore. I'm not playing that game with you in my spare time (i.e., outside of work).

Edited December 12, 2022 by krackcommando
anchor

[JediMasterAlex]

16 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Sorry serious question but isn't it like practically impossible to ever not have  at least ONE player  "worse" than you and/or  rest of the team?

And how is it even possible to quantify such a thing, when  WZ's are so fluid & dynamic (and often times, random)  match-by-match ? -- I mean, even RL sports teams have like a "worst" player, but if that player fills their specific role & purpose, then all is fine, no?

Lastly,  those derogatory  terms like  "anchor" and "sandbag"  (and other words these new Forums won't let me type)  ...Aren't those terms  part of the whole toxic perception thing with Ranked?

I would say the issue wasn't that you'd get worse players, more that you could get much worse players. For example, let's say Team A has 3 1400-1600 elo players and 1 700 elo player. Team B has 4 1300 players. The 700 elo player gets globaled, making it a 3v4. Even though the Team A players are all individually better than the Team B players, they will still lose that 3v4 against Team B's competent ranked players almost every time.

Naturally, that kind of matchmaking could be a source of frustration, and as was recently mentioned, it was a direct result of the population queueing being too small.

[Nee-Elder]

13 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

 if a player on my team (or me! heh) doesn't reach that floor for his spec, then he's an instantly  dead weight.

Pun intended?

Anyways, gotcha  i hear ya  then yep.

And i totally understand  NiM's  PvE wise btw , since i prog them a lot  as my main HEALER.  ...Only to notice how drastically "worse" i am whenever i try to play my tank/dps  ALTs  in the very same Op or fight. 

But i only dabbled in Ranked each of the many seasons  (more out of curiosity to measure my current skillset against others)  so i'm def. not as  aware of all the little subtle intricacies that encompass  hardcore dedicated mode there.

----

i also  read your reply too @JediMasterAlex , but i ran out of  *click likes*  ugh new forums!

Edited December 12, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: it's such a pain to MULTI-quote within threads now

[limenutpen]

REAL ISSUE IN SOLO-RANKED = NO PROGRESSING

The real issue in SR always came because we never got separate Arena Not-Ranked que, something everyone was asking from the day Arena where introduced in the game. 

There was no progressing in ranked, and this was further emphasized with smaller population, giving a PVE equivalent of doing a solo que operation in Nightmare mode.   

The end result of this is that people who tried genuinely ranked Arenas would give up. 

Also unlike Team-Ranked where team mates will tell you what you are doing wrong, in SR this rarely happens and people will just go on and flame the weaker link. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by limenutpen

[budgetcanoee]

This update is so depressing. Losing ranked was so unnecessary. Adding a separate unranked 4s q would have been a great way to help people prepare for ranked, but this is just sad. SWTOR was fun and deserves better, this is just depressing to play

[Nee-Elder]

9 minutes ago, Posixgod said:

Did these changes also reset the Character Stats listed under, Activities -> PVP -> Warzones -> Character Stats? 

I noticed that all of my historical Wins, losses, wins %, and medals earned were all reset back to 0. 

i already answered  Posixgod in his other thread here--> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/926642-lost-all-of-my-historical-warzone-character-stats/

( see subsequent replies, where it was all clarified for him )

Edited December 19, 2022 by Nee-Elder