Am I the only one who wants MMOs to move away from raids, dungeons, and holy trinity?

[casirabit]

Here's some

of them.

 

They used to be quite fun back it was still around.

 

It was provided you had the right group. I always ran with friends as it was more fun and less problems.

[Feberis]

I'm here because the trinity exists. I want the gameplay of being a dedicated tank and healer.

[DaZeeZee]

I'm here because the trinity exists. I want the gameplay of being a dedicated tank and healer.

 

Most people are here for other reeasons, like, Star Wars. Plenty of games where dedicated tanks and healers actually make sense unlike this one.

[jedimasterjac]

Most people are here for other reeasons, like, Star Wars. Plenty of games where dedicated tanks and healers actually make sense unlike this one.

 

Why don’t dedicated tanks and healers make sense in the Star Wars universe? Both Galaxies and TOR present tanks and healers based upon characters from the movies and from lore. Same for Galaxy of Heroes, much as I might loathe that game.

 

Are you gonna tell me Obi-Wan wasn’t “tanking” on the Death Star?

Edited May 3, 2022 by jedimasterjac

[iphacles]

Initially, I was gonna say I like the trinity, but then I thought about my favorite class in swtor being the Sorc because of their ability to heal themselves. Maybe, I don't like the trinity as much as I thought.

[Parane]

when we're done catering to the old people home.

 

The dumbest thing you could've done, and it's also invalidating everything you wanted to say, is to insult the people whose work you're enjoying. You also seem oblivious to the fact that you too will reach that age some day, unless you're the sort of millennial who stick their fingers in electric sockets for clicks.

 

This is what teenagers with zero self awareness might say, thinking they're being clever. It's not clever, dude. It's dumb.

 

we might finally get some massively multiplayer experiences worth while for a new generation of folks.

 

There are other types of MMOs. You know that, right? The problem with making games for the "new generation of folks" is that they're handholdy and boring because the "new generation of folks" seem to have lost all capability of thinking for themselves. Even idle clicker games seem too difficult for some people these days.

 

I also like that you at no point state how you'd like to have it instead. Too difficult for you? Maybe spend a few moments thinking about it before running your mouth in public. It'll save you a lot of problems when you grow up and have to interact with real people outside an internet forum.

 

I'll preface this thread by ending with an apology for having to use a person's age as an issue in game design.

 

Too late for hollow apologies. Go read a book. Maybe you'll learn some self awareness.

[theUndead]

No OP, you are not the only one. However, I find the tone and the nature of your post to be combative and also lacking in viable solutions to fix what you describe to be a problem. For me, I am used to the holy trinity in modern MMO's and for all the games I have played in the genre, I enjoy their versions of raiding dungeons, etc. Could I imagine it being different? Yes. Do I want it to change? Honestly no. The reason being is that this genre is ingrained with these aspects and changing or creating new systems will simply not attract the crowds you think it will.

 

A case in point is WildStar, a game that experimented with new designs such as twitch combat and other cartoony mechanics. The response? It was thoroughly rejected, meaning the old way still works.

[OlBuzzard]

Eliminating a larger part of an audience is always bad for business. I may be an OLD MAN ... but I understand the value of reaching as wide an audience as possible!

 

The more restrictions, demands, corralling, bug infested materials and other obstacles found in any game only detracts from the potential success of any game. Congruently, attempting to push, shove, or otherwise "herd" the audience into an unwanted or less than desirable "style or form" usually results in a reactionary defensive posture.

 

IMO ... It's most unfortunate to see how the game (and evidently finding some form of solace) in such attempts of claims to normality. It is not normal! Neither is the unfortunate manipulation of "facts" that seem to follow such behavior.

 

As for myself: I may be old ... BUT I AINT DEAD !! (not yet !)

 

Growth is needed !! As for OP ... that is not the right approach! With this genre ... there is no reason that things can't continue to move forward. This ANIT how you do it!

 

The rest is up to the development team. That part is their responsibility. And I still believe that there is a big part of this overall picture that none of us are seeing! (And probably never will)

 

Ya know ... Our companions use to mean something. They were efficient in 3 areas. Maybe it's time for that to work again. They use to do more than just heal. Perhaps a better usage of that part of the game is in order. (just a thought that many won't like ... but there it is just the same).

[DaZeeZee]

Are you gonna tell me Obi-Wan wasn’t “tanking” on the Death Star?

 

In a sense. but it's a much looser thing in the actual source material. much more so than the rigid roles SWTOR presents us.

 

"Healers" do a lot of damage. Tanks do a lot of damage.

 

Damage is everyones job, FFXIV gets this right, which is why its the one trinity game that isn't worse off for it.

 

Not just that but utility. "DPS" should be able to do more than red numbers.

 

News flash the MMO genre never was and still is not defined by the Unholy Trinity.

People only started believing that nonsense with WoW. and look where that is now.

 

True it wasn't the trinity that killed it. it's not a BAD system, not done well. but it usually isn't as its seen as a one dimensional thing that makes games boring and lame most of the time.

 

Also just becuase one approach works does not mean to copy paste it nonstop thats stagnation and eventual genre death.

Edited May 3, 2022 by DaZeeZee

[JediQuaker]

Damage is everyones job, FFXIV gets this right, which is why its the one trinity game that isn't worse off for it.

In your oh so humble opinion. 😂

[DaZeeZee]

In your oh so humble opinion. 😂

 

in the opinion of nearly 35ish million people (the number of subscribers). That says something that the most successful new king of MMOs is doing that.

 

And it's not even much of a departure from trinity roles, it's just not a moronic suicidal dev fart. Healers primary job is still keep people alive. Tanks primary job is still hold aggro and keep enemies focused on them.

 

It's just not a boring one dimensional role which can't do anything else becuase they can and are expected to output at least 50% of dps damage.

 

And they are designed with that in mind, which is why healers only have like 3 buttons for damage, and tank rotation is much simpler than the dps ones.

 

You do not need to get rid of the trinity entirely to save mmos. but if you think tanks should only be meatshields and healers should "only heal" then if you're designing a game with that mentality you are dooming it becuase the only players will be dumber than a lobotomized chimpanzee after a while, best case scenario there will be a MASSIVE shortage of non dps roles.

Edited May 3, 2022 by DaZeeZee

[jedimasterjac]

True it wasn't the trinity that killed it. it's not a BAD system, not done well. but it usually isn't as its seen as a one dimensional thing that makes games boring and lame most of the time.

 

"The second most popular MMORPG on the market" has not been "killed" by anything. It's still a ridiculously popular game.

 

And I don't know what you mean about FFXIV; it's incredibly rigid with respect to the trinity. Sure, healers can press one of their two DPS buttons, and are expected to, but that applies to virtually every popular MMO on the market, SWTOR and WoW included. I'd argue WoW does a much better job of this with respect to healers; two of their healer specs have to actively deal damage in order to heal effectively.

 

I genuinely did not see what you're saying occurs in FFXIV, and I played it for a good 500 hours.

Edited May 3, 2022 by jedimasterjac

[JediQuaker]

You do not need to get rid of the trinity entirely to save mmos. but if you think tanks should only be meatshields and healers should "only heal" then if you're designing a game with that mentality you are dooming it becuase the only players will be dumber than a lobotomized chimpanzee after a while, best case scenario there will be a MASSIVE shortage of non dps roles.

Again - in your Oh So Humble Opinion. 😂

 

P.s. I currently have a character in FFIV that I haven't touched in nearly a year. It just didn't grab me.

 

P.p.s. Even in SWTOR tanks do damage and healers can to, when they're not busy healing.

Edited May 3, 2022 by JediQuaker

[jedimasterjac]

Again - in your Oh So Humble Opinion. 😂

 

P.s. I currently have a character in FFIV that I haven't touched in nearly a year. It just didn't grab me.

 

P.p.s. Even in SWTOR tanks do damage and healers can to, when they're not busy healing.

 

OP is acting like FFXIV invented "people in non DPS roles should also deal damage" as if that isn't a staple for every single MMO on the market.

 

I don't know what games they've been playing.

 

And don't even get me started on the rigid, dull rotation for tanks... The couple dozen hours I spent gearing Paladin was hell.

Edited May 3, 2022 by jedimasterjac

[Toraak]

in the opinion of nearly 35ish million people (the number of subscribers). That says something that the most successful new king of MMOs is doing that.

 

And it's not even much of a departure from trinity roles, it's just not a moronic suicidal dev fart. Healers primary job is still keep people alive. Tanks primary job is still hold aggro and keep enemies focused on them.

 

It's just not a boring one dimensional role which can't do anything else becuase they can and are expected to output at least 50% of dps damage.

 

And they are designed with that in mind, which is why healers only have like 3 buttons for damage, and tank rotation is much simpler than the dps ones.

 

You do not need to get rid of the trinity entirely to save mmos. but if you think tanks should only be meatshields and healers should "only heal" then if you're designing a game with that mentality you are dooming it becuase the only players will be dumber than a lobotomized chimpanzee after a while, best case scenario there will be a MASSIVE shortage of non dps roles.

 

Not at all. I as a healer Do not want to DPS. If I wanted to dps, I wouldn't play a healer or a tank at all. For those that claim FF14 does something right just because of the sub numbers, remember this. It's not due to the trinity or lack there of. FF14 passed wow mainly because of the current Blizzard scandal, and the fact they put out content at a far quicker rate then other MMO's do.

 

While both healer and tank can do damage, they really aren't meant for such roles. The point to both roles is to keep your group alive. One by holding aggro, and the other by simply healing.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Toraak

[DaZeeZee]

"The second most popular MMORPG on the market" has not been "killed" by anything. It's still a ridiculously popular game.

 

And I don't know what you mean about FFXIV; it's incredibly rigid with respect to the trinity. Sure, healers can press one of their two DPS buttons, and are expected to, but that applies to virtually every popular MMO on the market, SWTOR and WoW included. I'd argue WoW does a much better job of this with respect to healers; two of their healer specs have to actively deal damage in order to heal effectively.

 

I genuinely did not see what you're saying occurs in FFXIV, and I played it for a good 500 hours.

 

Oh don't pretend many mmos don't botch at least one of the non dps roles into being boring and undesireable (Like ESO and tanks) it was like that in WoW at least for a time I know for a fact.

 

FFXIV does it way better than any of them, so regardless of your poorly informed opinion its clear you never actually bothered learning the game. Also cough Sage cough. Bard and Dancer cough. A healer which heals in decent part through damage and 2 dps who are taken in raids for the group buffs over damage (Dragoon too really, and for a long time, ninja)

 

I've played more mmos than I care to count and only one has managed the trinity in an acceptable way. this is why more games need to move away from it and TRY SOMETHING NOT TIRED AND DONE TO DEATH.

[fushnchips]

Oh don't pretend many mmos don't botch at least one of the non dps roles into being boring and undesireable (Like ESO and tanks) it was like that in WoW at least for a time I know for a fact.

 

FFXIV does it way better than any of them, so regardless of your poorly informed opinion its clear you never actually bothered learning the game. Also cough Sage cough. Bard and Dancer cough. A healer which heals in decent part through damage and 2 dps who are taken in raids for the group buffs over damage (Dragoon too really, and for a long time, ninja)

 

I've played more mmos than I care to count and only one has managed the trinity in an acceptable way. this is why more games need to move away from it and TRY SOMETHING NOT TIRED AND DONE TO DEATH.

 

Tanks in FFXIV do massive damage I tank in it

[jedimasterjac]

I played White Mage primarily. I did tank with Paladin - and hated it. The job I enjoyed the most was DNC. But I still stand by my position that class gameplay in XIV pales in comparison to WoW. I prefer SWTOR, too, but I think that’s less objective.

 

A WHM isn’t doing an engaging DPS rotation while healing, and they’re DPSing because they have literally nothing better to do. It fills your downtime between GCDs. And it’s not like you have a ton of abilities; you spam the AOE or you spam the single target. You’ll have to forgive me for forgetting spell names — I got really into the game when the lockdowns first started.

 

I’d rather play a Holy Paladin any day of the week, though. I don’t know what else to say; healing in XIV bores me to tears.

 

I will agree that tanking in ESO is maybe the worst iteration ever, though. It’s miserable.

[Telos]

well, the problem is, game developers don play games any more.

[Khaleijo]

You don't want to play an MMO then you want to kick back and play with half your brain, and be useless outside the narrow confines of group content and on the rails story missions. this narrow, incredibly stunted way of thinking makes me hope aliens blow up the planet as clearly there's not enough intelligent life.

Umm, people enjoying playing in a group are in the wrong place in an MMO

You don't have to play solo outside of PvP, raids and flashpoints, you know?

I haven't played any other big MMOs except for WoW and SWTOR, but other coop mode games like Division, Borderlands and so on, also do have some sort of trinity where there are more sturdier skill sets, some supportive or healing and some being more like a glass cannon.

Many people just like that kind of cooperative gameplay, the basic principle is easy to understand, the actual gameplay and how well it's done then differs from game to game.

 

If someone comes up with a great new idea, go for it, but please make a new game that's build for it from scratch in all details and not change existing games into some kind of hybrid thing that's not here nor there, since a deep change of principle like that just doesn't work well and also will anger the players that play the existing game for what it is.

 

Personally I really enjoy to play dedicated tanks or healers, I really don't have that way stronger competitive mindset most pure DPS players have (in my opinion). As I rather have a wholly cooperative mindset 'being useless outside of X' doesn't enter the equation since I want to play together with others. And especially SWTOR showed, giving players comps for solo play, a NPC group member with the role of their choosing so to speak, solved the issue of 'useless outside' rather easily.

 

Given interesting mechanics tanking is not at all boring, it simply is a different challenge than playing DPS, either the challenge of keeping the boss on me, of minimising the damage I take, optimising the positioning so that the DPS can do their job then of course the mechanics themselves. Funny enough I usually quite enjoy rather mechanic heavy boss fights that aren't just tank and spank or simple 'stay out of that void', while a lot of DPS oriented players I met dislike them because having to follow mechanics interrupts their rotations. Looking at the strategies that usually become mainstream after some time, quite often healers and tanks end up playing the mechanics while dps just do their rotation.

Healing is different too, on one hand reacting to what is happening, on the other anticipation of how and when the others might take damage according to your experience, decisions of who to prioritise in what situation, being effective, minimise over-heal.

To me doing damage as a healer also means I'm difficulty wise overqualified for what I'm doing and/or bored as hell. How interesting healing is in the end is again a question of mechanics, the heal curses in SWTOR for example are quite fun to break up that *oh that bar isn't full -> heal* monotony .

 

What people forget, before the trinity there actually was a quartet, with the dedicated support role, helping with buffs or debuffs, though few games really managed to get that balanced properly (like WoW for example failed to with the druid or paladin in classic times) and in the end simplified things and integrated that role into the other three with more or less success.

 

All in all, make trinity oriented games for people enjoying the trinity concept and make other games for other concepts. Just because one company manages to get something working well and is successful on the market doesn't mean all others have to or are able to copy that immediately, different games for different players. Everybody happy.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Khaleijo

[MaximusRex]

I'm 45, I don't want them to move away from raids, dungeons, and holy trinity. I want them to move away from time sink grinds and bring more CO-OP story, like the classic game, back. I enjoy the socializing aspect of group activities and want more of that.

[DaZeeZee]

I'm 45, I don't want them to move away from raids, dungeons, and holy trinity. I want them to move away from time sink grinds and bring more CO-OP story, like the classic game, back. I enjoy the socializing aspect of group activities and want more of that.

 

Fun fact forced grouping is not social. no one wants to do things when they HAVE to or leave it.

 

Social is stuff like Triple triad tournaments in FFXIV or guild events. If you want more social stuff then we need more and better fun stuff to do with our strongholds.

 

Raids are obsolete. no one has time for scheduled raiding. although SWTOR raids are so easy compared to the main players in the genre, it may be an exception.

[DaZeeZee]

OP is acting like FFXIV invented "people in non DPS roles should also deal damage" as if that isn't a staple for every single MMO on the market.

 

I don't know what games they've been playing.

 

And don't even get me started on the rigid, dull rotation for tanks... The couple dozen hours I spent gearing Paladin was hell.

 

No they didn't invent it but they are currently one of the only ones doing it correctly. Theres nothing dull about playing paladin either. you definitely didn't even bother leveling it. you have a half melee half ranged caster rotation and in actual content you need to adjust it all the time.

 

your ignorance just shows you really didn't bother playing.

[DaZeeZee]

well, the problem is, game developers don play games any more.

 

they do in FFXIV which is all the better for it. ignore the idiots. People who suck will hate on anything good. as if SWTOR is any more engaging in its garbage class rotations and design LOL. its literally among the worst "trinity" mmo executions of all time built on an engine which was garbage when they chose it!

[fushnchips]

they do in FFXIV which is all the better for it. ignore the idiots. People who suck will hate on anything good. as if SWTOR is any more engaging in its garbage class rotations and design LOL. its literally among the worst "trinity" mmo executions of all time built on an engine which was garbage when they chose it!

 

100% on this the engine killed the game for mass content with lots of players but FFXIV is so much better and then the community and in game toxic stuff doesn't exist and if it does things are sorted rather quickly not like SWTOR with sand bagging support and abusive players in general chat.