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Quarterly Producer Letter for Q2 2024 ×

Do you ppl saying the nerf was good understand eco?


ZNICK

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Level 20 or 50, it's still the same overall amount of money coming into the economy from one player's missions, so no different in overall inflation.

 

 

Wrong, the credit sinks at level 20 verses 50 are much much different.

 

repairs at level 20 < 1k

medpacs at level 20 ~250 cred

trash mobs on average dropped ~30 credits each

90% speeder bike: ~8K

speeder skill at 25 (riding 1) ~45k

 

repairs at level 50 > 40k

medpacs at level 50 ~25k

trash mobs on average dropped ~300 credits each on Hoth

110 % speeder bike: ~90k

speederbike skill at 40: 210k

 

 

credit box rewards average per hour at level 20 missions pre-nerf: < 2k

credit box rewards average per hour at level 49-50 missions (400 skill) pre-nerf: ~20k hour

 

if slicing was limited so that you could not run the missions above your characters level (as really ALL missions should be limited) then there would have been zero issues. Slicing was only decent money at the mission levels it was meant to be run at. Allowing people to run the 40+ missions at level 20 is what was out of balance and frankly needs to be addressed with ALL crew skills for the same reason.

 

People got slicing nerfed in the wrong manner, if level 20s could not run the 45+ missions for the greater rewards yes, they would have maid credits still... but at a much much vastly reduced rate since they also will be doing missions of their level only they also will still have a large chance of failure....

Edited by Kazzuk
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Okay, I am actually Selma Hayak. If you dispute this assertion and claim i am not Selma Hayak then you eastoy no boono. Also you loose all credibility for pointing out that my phonetic attempt at typing in spanish wasn't even correct.

 

In short: when you say "I am totally an economist with 20 years of experience, and here's some stuff a high-school level individual can point out the obvious flaws in." then it's a little silly to get upset when someone calls you on it, or dismiss anyone questioning "your education." If you haven't learned how to tell the difference between a standard economy and this one, then if you did go to school, go on back and demand a refund. You learned nothing.

 

Except that that rate was minor compared to a myriad number of other available methods, and in fact is well below the average earning potential of any level 50 character you're going to see spring up over the next few weeks.

 

Having a pool of individuals with moderate (Yes, slicing returns are moderate. A credit is not a dollar. It's like a tenth of a cent.) wealth more evenly spread is less likely to lead to economic abuse than having the first three people to level to 50 on a server having a huge income compared to the rest of the server.

 

Do I need to explain to you why having a small group of very wealthy individuals making a "couple hundred dollars a day" compared to "two dollars a day" for the rest of the population is a bad thing, even if parts of that population eventually catch up?

 

No.

 

First, it's a market economy. Second, slicing income has a hard cap on it that is actually well below the earning potential of simply grinding. To maximize that potential you actually have to micromanage and simply NOT PLAY at all because you're too busy clicking on mission buttons.

 

The people crying about not making money were not people working in the economy, they were people playing "pokemon crafter." They were literally destroying resources to get "vanity recipes." Just as no one buys six-handled scissors, no one is going to buy epic level 1 mods, much less epic level 1 mods of every single type availalble.

 

Silly people fail at economics and go broke. That happens. When you light money on fire, you do not make profit.

 

Jack, Jim and Jill are slicers. They can make 12,000 credits an hour each. That is all they can make and they will never make more. Ever. Because slcing does not increase past its cap no matter what.

 

Jerry is a crafter. He can make

 

Because they took slicing, Jack Jim and Jill are consumers. They literally can not craft entirely independently because they cannot gather for themselves.

 

Jerry makes items Jack, Jim and Jill want. He can ask for as much as he wants, but at some point, Jack, jim, and Jill are going to say "i will not pay that, because I literally can not afford to pay that much."

 

Slicing isn't a mint printing money. It's minimum wage. It looks like a lot of money to you, I'm sure, because you are not seeing the final set costs of maintenance and upkeep.

 

A level 15 player with half a million credits is nothing. Nothing. I'm sitting on far more than that at the moment, and it has zero to do with slicing. As a matter of fact, the amount of cash I have made in the past week with one account on one server that I play in the evenings and fiddle around with on my lunch break would have been completely impossible to replicate with three accounts running maxed out slicing on 8 characters and three companions each. (So... at launch day I'd need 24 level 30 characters)

 

I do appreciate that you were honest enough to call it an opinion.

 

 

Upset? Hardly. I was actually trying to read and understand your point, but that last sentence you said previously pretty much changed my view on you from being someone trying to debate his point of view, to someone trying to make someone look stupid so that he can prove himself right. I'm not here to get involved in an argument with you, I was merely expressing my view on how this nerf was "positive". If you don't agree then say you don't agree, there's no need to say "You need to go back to school, if you ever were in school."

 

Like I said, you seem knowledgeable but when you respond to people like a teenager no one's going to take you seriously.

 

Your example of Jim, Jack and Jill doesn't make sense btw. Why wouldn't Jim, Jack or Jill start crafting? Your example limits them to just slicing, which probably isn't the case in most actual circumstances. What's to stop them from picking up a craft and using their own gathered materials to make the finished product instead of buying?

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LeperJack

 

 

The fact that you are asking people to PROVE you wrong, plus the fact that you are vehemently arguing a point with an insult or more per post is all the evidence I need.

 

BW has all the figures behind the scenes.. they did it.. I believe they had a darned good reason. But you're right until we prove you wrong (the last gasp of the desperate)

 

Flinging of insults --> generally can be seen as a emotional reaction. From someone whose characters have millions of dollars and are not harmed directly by any slicing nerf. (Because you claim crafters make so much money they're your primary buyers right?)

 

I don't need to prove anything - what you say and how you say it is enough.

 

Just like to butt in here, don't care that much about slicing and such, just reading this made my nose bleed.

 

You see, science and theory is about proving people wrong. In science I make a hypothesis (As this person as done) and give the little evidence and reasoning. Then people have to go out and prove said person wrong. If nobody can (AKA the evidence suggests otherwise) then it becomes a theory (AKA fact to most people).

 

Ofc we can help here. Millions of brains around the globe are being subjected to this kind of stupid thinking every day, for just 2 pounds a month, we can remove these brains from such harmful relationships, and together help give these brains a second chance at a happy home. Please, time is of the urgency, every moment brains are being subjected to levels of stupid that are abusive.

 

This plea is sponsored by the Royal Society for Protection of Brains.

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The nerf was terrible... you people who are saying "nerf slicing, I have 2 gathering skills and wasn't making as much as slicers with one" cut your own throat.

 

The money the slicers were putting into the economy BUYING STUFF FROM NON SLICERS is now gone. Did your servers AH just die, or the prices you were getting plummet?

 

Guess why. If they haven't yet, they will.

 

Z

 

http://cheezburger.com/View/5630958080

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While you do seem to have a wealth of knowledge, all that credibility goes out the window when you decide to dispute someone else's education.

 

You make it seem like Slicing is the only way to "pay" for skills/repair equipment. There are other ways to earn that, and the nerf, imo, only slowed down what was a rapid pace of economic growth that appeared to be attributed to how quickly people were attaining credits through a source like slicing.

 

I do understand your point about credits being more than just currency, and I agree. But the fact is if one individual is making more credits faster than the next guy, doesn't that create a disparity that would be negative for a young economy such as this?

 

Regardless, you can refute my point as much as you'd like and question my education as much as you'd like, but I came to state my opinion and that's all.

 

You started off by saying you are right, and he is wrong then linked articles on a free website saying he should learn economics.

 

He has said more insightful things than you have and hasn't once tried to Appeal to Authority. You have done all of those things and you are also being quite defensive about being called out.

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Actual gameplay balance trumps imaginary economic predictions made less than 2 weeks since release.

 

If by the OP's own statement, Slicing was the only thing keeping the economy afloat, then the nerf is warranted.

 

If by other people's statement Slicing didn't generate that much cash, then the nerf's effect on the game is negligible. In that much more likely case, people should start looking at how Slicing now compares to other gathering skill and react accordingly. No professions should be obsolete, and no profession should stand out that much against others.

 

TBH, all professions could use tweaking, but we aren't even 2 weeks in the game's release. Let go of that "memememenownownownow" attitude and wait a bit. There will be other patches, and just like in every other MMO ever, balances fixes are made constantly.

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Regardless of the arguments, prices have plummeted. I only lose money raising my crew skills now. No one is buying anything. I have to sell things at a loss. I've NEVER had to do that in a game before -- it's usually just a matter of how greedy I want to be. Missions are far too expensive for the one or two things you get back.
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Hi, Germany's economic collapse after WWI would like to have a word with you. They beg to differ. Pumping money into the economy is not good either.

 

 

It collapsed. The Peace Treaty Of Versailles was step one. It restricted the army to 100,000, took a lot of land from Germany (less food and population), demanded £600 million (I think, it's probably best to check the figure) in reparations. There had been the blockades against Germany in the war.

 

The Occupation Of The Ruhr was a big losing point for the Germans. They had missed a reparations payment, and the French occupied the Ruhr. The Germans didn't want to work, so started Passive Resistance, which lost them a lot of money.

 

This was fixed by Stresemann, who made the Dawes Plan. This was a way for Germany to pay their debts off, and gave them a new currency too. Half of the problem had been the Government printing too much money, causing hyper-inflation.

The Dawes Plan basically had Germany borrowing money from America, then paying reparations to the allies, then the allies would pay their debt to America, like a big circle.

 

Then there was the wall street crash, which affected the world. This caused a depression, as all of the shares in wall street were worth nothing. Germany was struck by poverty, and a lot of Germans were unemployed. This gave Adolf Hitler something to use in his Promise-propaganda. He promised to make Germany strong again.

 

And he did. He created jobs for people, with societies like Beauty Of Labour having people build motorways. The innovative way of getting people into jobs helped to bring the economy up.

 

Obviously during the war, things became a bit tighter. More money was being put into war, and towards the end of WW2, the strain was really showing.

 

I'm assuming you only want up until then :)

Some of the things I've mentioned go into more detail here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_o…

 

 

Did you really quote wikipedia......?

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LeperJack

 

 

The fact that you are asking people to PROVE you wrong, plus the fact that you are vehemently arguing a point with an insult or more per post is all the evidence I need.

 

BW has all the figures behind the scenes.. they did it.. I believe they had a darned good reason. But you're right until we prove you wrong (the last gasp of the desperate)

 

Flinging of insults --> generally can be seen as a emotional reaction. From someone whose characters have millions of dollars and are not harmed directly by any slicing nerf. (Because you claim crafters make so much money they're your primary buyers right?)

 

I don't need to prove anything - what you say and how you say it is enough.

 

The only thing he is saying, are things that are true.

 

You have yet to prove to anyone that you know anything beyond a simplistic supply/demand models that sounds remarkably elementary and on a 15 year old WoW kid's level.

 

You keep justifying by saying "bioware did their homework and I believe x y z.

 

You are making unfounded assumptions left and right.

 

Oh and for god's sake...

 

Everyong needs to stop talking about slicing being printing money while IGNORING the fact that by doing repairs, training skills, buying vendor items is the same as BURNING money

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I love how you ignore arguments made, create one from whole cloth and tailor to fit your rebuttals.

Arguments you have made, "

>>>>>>>>>

If you think they made the best money, or even had a GOOD way to make money, you're mistaken. I'm trying very hard not to write you off as someone who has no idea how this game actually works, but you're making that difficult.

 

Despite selling half of what I was pre-nerf, I'm still pulling in about 200k a day in profits from gathering and CRAFTING skills. I do this with about 5 hours worth of play, and it's really not even that strenuous. i'm doing part of it right now, actually.

 

It involves zero slicing.

<and>

Except that credits aren't money.

<and>

Jack, Jim and Jill are slicers. They can make 12,000 credits an hour each. That is all they can make and they will never make more. Ever. Because slcing does not increase past its cap no matter what.

 

Jerry is a crafter. He can make

<and>

>>>>>>>>

So, so far, you've argued that slicing was the economic engine powering other things. Yet, at the same time, slicing doesn't make as much money as a non-slicer crafter. (NOTE - you're ignoring slicers can craft too.)

 

first insult - against bluejayoo stating hes a liar - no supporting evidence - just you dont like what he said. Then you claim credits aren't money. Not repeating rebuttals destroying this.

 

2nd insult - you didn't like what msbungle said so you stated, "Do you actually read anything or just post?"

 

then you went off on a rant on max money a slicer could make versus a crafter selling items. {please see crafter vs. slider avoidance topic just mentioned}

 

Then you make the premise that gold farmers/bots would find it easier to program their toons to traverse narrow corridors and engage in battles versus finding a way to automate the slicing process. YOUR figure of 5million plus a day is NOT temptation for a gold seller to bot? REALLY?!??!?!??!

 

3rd insult, "If you haven't learned how to tell the difference between a standard economy and this one, then if you did go to school, go on back and demand a refund. You learned nothing." This again to someone whose conclusions differ from yours.

 

Once again you retreat to crafter versus slicer argument. Then you state that although your crafter makes more money than slicers your customers are all slicers.

 

4th insult: "Aww... I'm sorry, son. I didn't realize I was typing for the reading impaired.

Lemme try this again in big letters:"

 

This at the same time you <AGAIN> argue money making capabilities of a slicer versus a crafter. repeat after me.. slicers can craft too bro.

 

Then you argue that it would not be strong/negative effects for an economy for everyone in America to have a machine that makes money so everyone has over a million dollars. Really Bro?!?!? Really?

 

5th: "Slicing was bad NERF FTWLOLZ.

"no it was not, it was beneficial and may have needed a boost at high levels, and here is why: [WALL OF TEXT]"

NO UR RONG AND STIPUD

"Show me why anything I have just said is wrong."

"U NEED ME TO PROOVE U RONG U RONG AND STIPUD."

 

My premise is this and you avoid taking it on: (see above as well as NO UR RONG AND STIPUD)

 

Slicing had to be nerfed.

 

1. It enables low level chars to race through slicing and have exceedingly high amounts of money as compared to non-slicers of the same level. Cost of players sold goods climbs as well as diluting the difficulty of getting mounts/etc.

 

2. As the slicer is also a crafter the slicer can buy all the goods they want and make their crafted items and destroy non-slicers from penetrating the market. (as rare items for better than green designs are expensive)

 

3. The biggie - Having the ability to click a few buttons for a relatively low level character to send off companions that results in a profit is an open invitation to massive gold farmers/bot farming for credits which will then make economic problems of increased cash availability worse. The more money there is of a currency the less it is worth.

 

BW absolutely has to remove the ability to click a few buttons and print money. They just had to. Are further tweaks necessary - absolutely. The virtual economy is still just getting started.

 

Printing/creating money devalues that money - making prices go up. The more printing - the more the inflation. Inflation will happen - but is compounded by printing money plus will be made worse the more people figure out how to bot farm credits and pre-nerf slicing was fertile ground - click one button and wait.

 

1) He is saying he made money from crafting for slicers - they could craft, but they didn't craft what he crafted. Ergo he gets money from them for his wares. For all you know, maybe those three DON'T craft themselves because they DON'T want to and are PERFECTLY happy paying him to craft what they want.

 

2) The guy was a liar and didn't bother to prove himself wrong. Credits aren't money because they also act as LABOR when you use credits for MISSIONS, do you not read?

 

Asking someone if they read isn't an insult, it is an insult if someone tries to make an argument when completely ignoring what you say, much like what you seem to be doing.

 

He has real conclusions based on real economic principles, your principles are still limited to an extremely simply supply/demand model. Economics is MUCH much more than this. Thus why he is claiming your 20 years of experience has gone to waste if this is the limits of your knowledge.

 

You aren't reading at all. Anyone who takes slicing is NOT self sufficient in their crafting.

 

 

3) Stop comparing a GAME economy to WHAT IS CURRENTLY HAPPENING IN AMERICA. They are DIFFERENT. If you DON'T know HOW, then Maybe leper is RIGHT.

 

 

4) Oh dear god. You do realize that slicing only really hurts other slicers right? Goods have no set value, If inflation indeed did happen, even HYPER inflation - What would end up happening is that a level 10 can sell their Desh pile for prices that are EXTREMELY high. Thus destroying the fear of not being able to buy their skills, or buying vendor items.

You are ignoring the gold sinks completely.

 

Also - level 10s don't have access to the hard cap because --------> Level 10s have ONE companion.... they get another as early as level 13... and then a third at around 23.....

 

In order to reach this hard cap they would need level 50s, which would burn an incredible amount of time. At level 50, their profits from regular grinding would exceed slicing and the sort of coding it would require to program bots that slice AND grind would be PRONE to error.

 

Botting programs are very simple, they use commands and sometimes illegal loopholes to target, loot, and scan their surroundings. You are talking about a program that will also be smart enough to open menus and choose appropriate skills? That is a coding nightmare, and I know that it is A LOT easier said than done.

 

If you want to make a good gold farming botting program, you keep one thing in mind - Simplicity. If it becomes too complicated, too prone to error, and require too much attention from the person who is monitoring the activity, it is a bad program. Period.

 

I'm no expert on economics, and I really don't think you are either. I've taken a few classes and the knowledge you present was covered and done with on day one. But I am familiar with... lol... cracking botting programs and modifying coded documents to suit my needs, and I can tell you that complicated programs are nice, but the simple ones work the best.

Edited by Zennshi
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Big surprise another qq thread about slicing. Simple Math on why it was bad.

 

Scavenging earns X when selling goods to vendors

Slicing earns Y when selling goods to vendors

 

If Y > X then the system is broken. No? Theoretically the only time you should be making money is by getting a higher level of good and getting lucky. You should not be able to run any gathering skill mission and then vendor the product for a HUGE profit. That is broken. If other Gathering skills could do the same thing it would be a different story.

 

Your math is way off..... why in the world would you vendor mats obtained from scavenger mission?

 

Intelligent people use those mats to make products and then sell them on the GTN or give them to friends or keep them for themselves.

 

Edit... Some people may even want to sell the mats on the GTN as well (but not VENDOR them).

Edited by Treebyrn
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If people were allowed to make easy credits as they could before the nerf they would not ever feel the need to make use of gold farmers!

This to my understanding was the whole point of the concept of slicing brought forth by Bioware in the first place this concept made it possible for people to concentrate on the game, and not be restricted by credit constraints if they wanted to.

Restricting the liquidity in this virtual economic environment makes for less fun and less entertainment, this can not possibly be a good thing for Bioware and their player base.

Talking about this game economy as if it is comparable to our real life economy is crazy talk.

Especially if it does not matter in a game where the point is to be entertained above all else.

Feeling as if you are constantly poor does not make good entertainment, why some people think it is necessary to suffer and be poor if you do not gather stuff for hours and "work" for it in a game is beyond me and it sounds like masochism.

Edited by Anticasper
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today i ran around and farmed mats for synthweaving.

archaeology.

i kept seeing nodes for slicers,as much as the ones i was hitting,and thought well if i was a slicer i would be rich!

how much cash comes out of the slicing nodes(not sure what they are called.)

i know i would not have enough mats to craft properly and reverse engineer upgrades unless i farmed.

so if you are only making some money doing missions,(me i technically lose money doing missions)maybe try farming.

i farm chrystals and artifacts.

you farm cash and whatever.

just go do it?

and my items on gtn go just fine.

i don't want to craft to just outfit slicers.

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today i ran around and farmed mats for synthweaving.

archaeology.

i kept seeing nodes for slicers,as much as the ones i was hitting,and thought well if i was a slicer i would be rich!

how much cash comes out of the slicing nodes(not sure what they are called.)

i know i would not have enough mats to craft properly and reverse engineer upgrades unless i farmed.

so if you are only making some money doing missions,(me i technically lose money doing missions)maybe try farming.

i farm chrystals and artifacts.

you farm cash and whatever.

just go do it?

and my items on gtn go just fine.

i don't want to craft to just outfit slicers.

 

The nodes are free, but most are bugged, some are missing, and they AREN'T as abundant and you people make it out to be.

 

I really don't see why people still say "well I lose money on my missions qqq" that is because we are in a economic depression right now, where your goods are so devalued that the VENDOR will buy it for more than a PLAYER will.

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i wouldn't say abundant.

abundant was flying around in some other game mining ore.

i actually had to hop on my speeder and travel all the hell over to find 2 areas on tatooine and one on alderaan.

took me alot of google searching and asking in chat and then i started to see patterns.

so now i know what to look for and understand the timers and heck i even wonder if a certain creature tells me grouped nodes are around(i think on tatooine its like that.)

i find some bugged nodes but probably not more or less than you.

if slicing has alot more bugged nodes then i agree with all the slicing qq posts.

 

fix slicing(nodes)

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What they don't understand is while the concept of inflation is good to some it isn’t over all more so IRL just meaning the actual dollar has less buying power people just want to inflate the number so it seems they have more value than they really do.

 

Overall as I have posted before people just want to want more disposable income regardless of the impact to the game. Inflation gives the illusion of more value were there isn’t.

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I don't want to burst your bubble but slicing doesn't make money anymore. In fact it makes you lose approximately 500 credits a mission. And if you are "LUCKY" you lose entire sum. Slicing was made for non-crafters so they could play the game and earn money now slicing is ruined. Even if you go looking for the lockboxes it is still not what it meant to be.

 

Except that actual examination of data rather than a 5 second QQ look shows that over time you make a profit, just a much smaller profit(20 credits a minute seems the common estimate). Histrionics is for Days of our lives, not for forums.

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You started off by saying you are right, and he is wrong then linked articles on a free website saying he should learn economics.

 

He has said more insightful things than you have and hasn't once tried to Appeal to Authority. You have done all of those things and you are also being quite defensive about being called out.

 

 

Think you misquoted someone?

 

I never once said he was 'wrong' or that I was right. Nor did I link any sites as a reference.

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LOL... this is ridiculous. It's a basic economic principle that the more money being pumped into the economy, the more spending, and the better off everyone is.

 

Z

 

The fed should just print 14 trillion and pay off the national debt then give 50% of US 10 billion each...cause that would make it better for EVERYONE who didn't get the 10 billion.

 

 

Simply put, inflation was sky rocketing in the game and BW moved as quickly as possible to slow it down.

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The nerf was terrible... you people who are saying "nerf slicing, I have 2 gathering skills and wasn't making as much as slicers with one" cut your own throat.

 

The money the slicers were putting into the economy BUYING STUFF FROM NON SLICERS is now gone. Did your servers AH just die, or the prices you were getting plummet?

 

Guess why. If they haven't yet, they will.

 

Z

 

i dont really see your point. You mean ONE gathering skill making money while ALL OTHER gathering skills LOSE money was good for the economy because eventually we'd have nothing but slicers in the game?

 

/boggle

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Simply put, inflation was sky rocketing in the game and BW moved as quickly as possible to slow it down.

 

 

 

Inflation was skyrocketing? That is the exact kind of absurdity and fear mongering that started all this. Yes, it was abused by some (not all).

Yes it did need toned down a tiny fraction.

The fact still remains since slicing got nerfed, the GTN has slowed down severely.

This will last until people get to 50 and have some expendable income, someone figures out a new method of gaining credits or people start buying from Chinese gold farmers.

And it's the latter that will truly ruin the economy. Not slicing.

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all gathering professions are suppose to suck. low reward for no risk. that's like playing wow and rolling skinning and thinking you are suppose to be rich.

 

Actually thats what i did on wow, pick up mining and skinning and within 48 hours, i tend to make over 5000g.

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Got to love who everyone missed the elephant in the room that is fixed price coveted end-game goods(speeder training to mention the most obvious one). Dunno what entitled easy-mode MMO's people have been playing befor but these things are items that should be hard and time consuming to aquire and by pumping fantasy sums into the economy that entire section of the game mechanics goes **** up completly.

 

The Keyensian model of just pumping money in an economy and expecting it the grow is totaly assbackwards anyway. As it its right now the inflation that would occur in ToR would be like the 30's in Germany where it got so bad people literaly got paid 30 million in salary and a piece of bread(Player created goods) cost 10 million but then we would cap the prices of luxury goods(Speeders,social goods etc) at about 2k and the entire system would as stated earlier go **** up.

 

Sure people will make less money now but the luxury goods of the game(speeders, Social items etc) will return to their normal lvl of "availability" while player created goods will adjust to the market by being cheaper hence when it comes to aquiring goods you really "need" you're not richer or poorer then you where befor since neither of these are measured, neither in the real or fictional world(s), by how much money/credits you have but by what amount of goods you can aquire for it.

 

As far as repairs go covering those arent a problem really and the cost of training is frankly a non-issue at lvl 50 anyway and when leveling you simply shouldn't bother with paying for learning skills you wont use. For an example on my Commando(DPS specced) I didn't fork out a ton of credits to learn the new healing abilities whenever they became available from lvling up.

Edited by hkraven
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