SWTOR 7.0 is the worst expansion to date ?

[Pricia]

In the end the question is: Will those few good things outweigh the negative aspects of 7.0 for current players and will they be enough to attract new ones?

 

Hell no.

 

I can already tell you that I won't be grinding for gear. I will run the story and do the GS objectives and call it a day. I might run CQ with extra characters if I need more tech fragments, but chances are they'll get booted from their guilds because there's no way I'm running all my alts through 100k CQ every week for such ****** rewards.

 

It makes me sad. I've enjoyed playing my 34 characters every week, but with doubled CQ and fewer goals (7-14k fewer CQ points because of the loss of the renown level goal), plus useless rewards after the 4th character, I'm sure I can find another game I'll have more fun with (especially with the horrible scaling we have on PTS). And having to do forced content to get rewards doesn't sound appealing to me at all (and the same content again and again - same stuff I've been doing for over a year, it gets old).

 

Honestly though the only rewards I like in GS2 are the mounts anyway...

 

New players? From what I've seen regarding the leveling experience on PTS, I doubt that them being able to have a new combat style they know nothing about with their origin story will make them 1) want to play the game more, 2) stick to it.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Pricia

[Kendaric]

Not for me. They are just cosmetic - all fluff and no substance.

 

Exactly... sure, I'll enjoy the second combat style on a couple of characters, but effectively there's very little of interest for me in 7.0.

 

The story part, which is the most important thing for me, will be short (according to the devs), the FP I'll run a few times in story/solo mode like I always do.

 

But grinding for gear? No. I never cared about gear grind in any MMORPG I played and I sure as hell won't care now.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Kendaric

[mariavanzetti]

This last update just looks like they want to finish the game and fast! Close the servers, minimize the damage and the playing population, and shut the door on SWTOR!

 

So many downgrades to the gameplay...

- Grind for points 50k more with the same amount of reward points for conquest objectives.

- Inability to play oneself for the high gear now (please do not say, that you do not need it if you aren't into FP/OP)!

 

PS: Yes you do need it for smooth and fast play of the Heroics, Solo conquest objectives...

Except for the main story... For that, you can play naked... Without any gear whatsoever!

 

- No one knows the true battle ratio and stratagem relations between critical/alacrity/accuracy

The already predisposition-ed set pieces are awfully merged... There's no way to change the mods since the gear is not moddable anymore... Not going into details, but there is a huge lack of Critical and Alacrity in already predisposition gear!

 

- Season objectives are a grind-full now. It is much easier believe me to pay for the full season than to grind into FP/OP's or wait in the Que for hours to get into the Master FP. (OP never clicks on Que, no one ever ques the OPS, you need a guild for that, and to get into the guild OP team, you need time, year, two... sometimes, even more, that also depending on the Guild and what's your place in the hierarchy of the guild). Developers know this already!

 

Forcing the group play on player population which is thin already. is just ludicrous. It's just not the solution, it makes gameplay harder and more tedious!

 

Imagine a completely new player, who just finished the story, get his character (somehow solo) to the highest level, which is 80 now, and now he wants to upgrade his 320 gear. He ques for Vet/Master FPS. Well, he will get kicked a lot of times, from FP's, especially Master ones, since there, the players won't tolerate genuine inability to be fast, know the way, be prepared for every boss, and do exactly what is expected, and so on... This with the OPS settings, I won't even comment, it is just totally ludicrous!

Trying to force old experienced players to group with the inexperienced ones in ques in Master FP is just madness!

Yes, get a guild! You'll say... Well even in a guild, it is tough to get a line to do something. Usually, in 80% of the cases, the groups which are doing OP's / Master FP's are already preordained. To enter the waiting list, it can take quite some time, and the ability of the people inside the guild to make time for progression groups (the groups which are designed to go over gameplay, for every OP/FP step by step and explain every fight).

Now picture all this in the game which is over ten years old. Where the population is slowly seeping down year by year and with the new updates which are asking for more time, more grind!

 

Now imagine experienced older players, who are having 40-50 toons (more/less) on every server and their inability to get all of them to 80. Because doing that is a Sisyphus business! Now they need to chose, which ones they want to upgrade. Luckily gear is still legacy and transferable (Thank G-d for the 6.0 update) Moreover, they have to choose combat style, and everything that goes with it, but there's a problem... The ratio between combat style numbers are still an enigma?

Is 110/ACC - 70/CRIT - 10-15%ALAC... Still viable? No one knows? I have been checking for three days in the chat on the multiple servers, no one gave me an answer, they called me names and cruncher of numbers and whatnot, but not a soul gave me a straight answer?

 

Now after the first update, we did not get any sets in our inventory. But after that, they corrected it. We get two sets, 312/318! With the same characteristics. Two accuracy sets (Chest/Head) and two Alacrity sets (Legs/Feet) which leaves hands with Critical! Now we cannot alter the sets and mod them since the new update forbids it! We can play with the gear we get. Which is sad and impossible with so many different classes! I have to roll on accuracy as a healer... Sad really!

 

Get that Neuro-Key... wow... What a brilliant idea...

Edited February 17, 2022 by mariavanzetti

[BIGGDOG]

Im shocked what they call an expansion ? An overpriced mount + 2 hours worth of new story + ugly UI that nobody wanted or are we supposed to replay the old content just because they changed classes or do they take their customers for stupid ?

That beeing said the new content is buggy as hell !

[Kalnarius]

people complaining about how short the story of LotS was never really played Rise of the Hutt Cartel it started out with just freaking Makeb but then again it had several raids in it and then expanded with Oricon and CZ-198 they did not come out all at once. People freaking hate Makeb and still do know very few players that even play through Makeb itself these days. Could LotS been a lot longer sure, but then again think how long Kotfe was when it first came out people had beaten its 1st 9 chapters in less than 3 hrs but they were rolling new chapters out every month with Kotfe. This is nothing new for EA/Bioware just imagine had that rolled this out and people actually paid for the expansions like they did with RotHC and Shadow of Revan people complained back then about subbing for those and it would be even worse today because people constantly complain about every little thing. Not defending LotS by any means there are issues but goto a MMO that has ever had a smooth expansion and that would be MMO that is probably actually dead now. WoW never had. I mean FF has probably been 1 of the most seemless at times but for the most they are all bundled and botched messes.

 

Gearing system I am not for or against. I like it being complex and actually giving people something to work towards and incentivize doing stuff in. Honestly I would say its not complex enough for MMO standards, it should be a x1000 harder to get gear than what it is in LotS thats the nature of playing MMOs. I do not like easy gearing and all players should have the same gear that is just not what MMOs are about. You want that go play a offline RPG or mod the crap of skyrim before its not even really skyrim in the slightest.

 

Pruning of abilities I question the pruning of what abilities they actually pruned or made you choose between but not the idea that pruning of abilities was not actually needed. I mean WoW literally pruned abilities after every new expansion got rid of a few and masked them with a couple of new abilities where people were not really even to upset until they really pruned the crap out of it and upset the player base. Honestly the way that it should have kinda went down was more of a choice what you got to keep and what you switched out for other stuff. There are some useless abilities in a lot of the combat styles that needed to be purged but were left because they wanted to alter defensives so people actually would have to work through content rather than cheese everything in the game.

 

Honestly at the end of the day its not going to actually make me leave the game as I have played the competition and was never truly impressed by those games in the slightest. Do I want Bioware to do better absolutely they have a lot of room to improve on but they are cap strickened by EA to the point its more EA's fault or actually Disney's for not actually seizing more control over Swtor to invest big money into making it better. Though I like the fact they have not actually influenced Bioware in a lot of their aspects of the game which I knew was going to ruin the sequel trilogy from when they let out what they were going to do with the sequels and nobody freaking listened to them upon purchasing of Star Wars.

[Raemann]

Indeed. My wife and I re-subbed to get started and be prepped for the new content around the end of January. We got all ready and were excited to begin the new stories. Then it happened.

1) The instances in the story line are all bugged. Sure there are work arounds for some, but I really have to wonder what fool QA ed this and then felt it was ready for anything short of Alpha testing. Perhaps the worst part is how the pinnacle fight in the story-line (or well, I think it is because it is bugged and you cannot get past it without being one-shotted 18 times) ; the fight with Darth Malgus is bugged to one shot players on STORY MODE. Story mode... I remember guildies laughing at people who needed help in story mode. The popular buzz circled around, "All it's for is to let you watch the cut-scenes and to pickup some XP!" Well, that isn't the case in the Malgus fight. I thought, at first it was because I was Melee (on a Marauder) then I discovered not only was the fight bugged but the Marauder had been stripped down so much people were quitting over the nerfing. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! I was to be disappointed even further with another example of developer incompetence. On the way to Malgus you must negotiate a stair path and fight enemies along the way. However, if you miss a group or one of them is blasted off the mountain it causes you to have to jump off and die to reset the fight. You cannot simply go back down the stairs and try the fight again nor can you jump across and trigger their drop - you gotta die. - - Well, I had a 2) and a 3) and my wife had a 4) through 8) but none of us have the time for that. So we just cancelled our subscriptions . This is the first time we have left a game and everyone immediately uninstalled it from their computer, but with people like this developing the game the best anyone can hope for is that once this project rolls over and dies they don't get jobs destroying any more of the games we like to play.

[Iron_throne]

6.0 Loot system was totally fine.

Gear grind? Raiding for the best pieces?

Okay EA/Bioware. Since you insist I shall unsubscribe.

 

Good luck catering to whoever enjoys that.

[WaywardOne]

people complaining about how short the story of LotS was never really played Rise of the Hutt Cartel ..

 

Makeb was arguably the biggest xpac we've gotten. Not that Makeb was large but 7.0 has a fraction of Makeb's content.

[zhaiyan]

Already unsubbed even before hitting lv80. This "expansion" is such a failure.

[MrDesith]

I sense a plot to destroy the swtor ea/bioware order

[scratcha]

I sense a plot to destroy the swtor ea/bioware order

 

While I have thought the same thing, it's a NO.

 

In a carrot and stick game, they've merely added a couple feet to the stick.

 

Make the game more difficult by nerfing companions, removing accessories, and screwing up armor. Make attaining armor much more difficult.

 

The strategy is to fool us into thinking the game has more substance when, in truth, it has little to none. BW's intent is to milk its players while not adding to the game (read: not spending money).

 

It's a rather duplicitous and dare I say because they've stolen things players have paid for, it's pretty damned nefarious. At very least, their ploy is sneaky and underhanded.

Edited February 28, 2022 by scratcha

[xjasx]

This isn't just the worst SWTOR expansion to date, this is one of the worst MMO expansions in the history of the genre. After over 10 years of playing this game from the start, I was actually emotionally struck by how bad this expansion felt. Contrasted with FFXIV Endwalker, it's a positively miserable expansion.

 

Historically when I didn't care for an expansion (in SWTOR or elsewhere) I can still find some redeeming qualities and stick through it without much complaint because I enjoy the game. This is the first time I've finished the content in an expansion and genuinely felt SAD about the fact that this is what the game has become. That this is what I looked forward to, and where the road has led after 10 years. When the credits rolled I actually hanged my head in sadness.

 

I loved this game, I really did. For years. I feel like I just watched my girlfriend suddenly spiral into a drug habit. Except I have more faith in a drug addict recovering than I do in SWTOR recovering.

[Saacius]

Easily the worst SWTOR expansion, but overall they've been fairly decent-ish. This expansion though......probably the worst I've seen in my 20 years playing mmos haha. Like what even was this supposed to be, something went horribly wrong at BioWare. They aren't really known for delivering quality as of late, but goddamn.

[Damask_Rose]

Easily the worst SWTOR expansion, but overall they've been fairly decent-ish. This expansion though......probably the worst I've seen in my 20 years playing mmos haha. Like what even was this supposed to be, something went horribly wrong at BioWare. They aren't really known for delivering quality as of late, but gosh darn.

 

Years ago Colonial Williamsburg hired an outside firm to examine communication within the museum. They were having a significant problem with the research their curators were generating not filtering down to their interpreters. When I see how badly designed and implemented 7.0 is, I think Bioware needs to do something similar. They aren't functioning properly and they clearly need outside professional help figuring out why.

[DavidAtkinson]

So ? Is it the worst ?

[TUXs]

So ? Is it the worst ?

Without a doubt.

[Ardrossan]

SWTOR 7.0 is the worst expansion to date ?

 

Yes, but also we say that pretty much every expansion. iirc the expansion that brought level sync [4.0?] had much gnashing of teeth and lamentations. 5.0 was kotfe/et which I and others deeply disliked. 6.0 ruined endgame crafting. So it's a little tricky to say "we're serious this time!"

[Damask_Rose]

Yes, but also we say that pretty much every expansion. iirc the expansion that brought level sync [4.0?] had much gnashing of teeth and lamentations. 5.0 was kotfe/et which I and others deeply disliked. 6.0 ruined endgame crafting. So it's a little tricky to say "we're serious this time!"

 

What you are really saying is that each expansion is worse than the last, which is pretty accurate imo. 7.0 just said, "hold my beer" and moved the bar so low it will be extremely difficult for 8.0 to lower it further.

[Samcuu]

Nope it's pretty much like all the other expansions, better than some, worse than others. Just fine.

[DWho]

What you are really saying is that each expansion is worse than the last, which is pretty accurate imo. 7.0 just said, "hold my beer" and moved the bar so low it will be extremely difficult for 8.0 to lower it further.

 

I'd have to agree. It will be hard to release something much worse. The biggest problem was the vast number of bugs (it has to have marked the high point for that) most of which were pointed out in PTS testing prior to release and were never fixed (and still aren't - I think if they made a list of what is working it would be shorter than the known issues list). Story was massively underwhelming (in addition to being little more than a group flashpoint (which has a game breaking bug in it) they stuffed a couple of cutscenes into and called it good). One would have expected a storyline something on the order of KotFE or KotET in length for a "Anniversary Celebration". Maybe they spent all their time on the Operation and it will be amazing (doubtfull but possible) but only a small fraction of the players in the game will likely ever see it.

[Jdast]

Yes, for some inter-related reasons. This will get a bit lengthy (brevity is not my strongpoint) so...

 

TL;DR: The Dev team bit off way more than they could chew. It was a failure not only of design, but project management and execution. Regardless of industry, I have witnessed when new people arise to power and, like Emperor Nero, have felt the need to burn Rome to the ground and attempt to rebuild it in their image. They typically do so to build up their resumes and brand their own impramatur on the game (or company, restaurant, agency, etc.). They, like Emperor Nero, also typically fail.

 

In this case, SWTOR had a new game design team that aspired to rebuild the game from the burnt ground up in the way they envisioned. They failed to recognize they lacked the resources to do so. Their vision wasn't ambitious and audacious, it was arrogant and naive.

 

Let's stipulate that I disagreed fundamentally with their design views for the game -- and I made that clear. FYI, I don't feel I was ignored. I felt my views (shared by others) were simply rejected as is their purview. I voiced my concerns, voted with my wallet, and moved on to other games. The only reason I'm back (and remain) is because they are gone. So we are are clear, I am not talking about the creative side, but the gameplay side.

 

But even if you accepted the vision of the previous game design team, they failed in implementation.

 

1) They did nothing to reduce Time to Kill (TtK);

2) Class balance remains atrocious;

3) Level sync remains screwed up;

4) Bugs galore not only in the Main Story Questline (MSQ), but elsewhere.

 

Think about it: Imagine such a small team completely recalibrating not only classes but all PvE content for the purpose of reducing TtK to help PvP. /boggle:rak_02:

 

They wasted time on irrelevant issues and failed to understand SWTOR's comparative advantage; hence the reason I only subscribed for six of the last 19 months and bought zero Cartel Coins. This is what happens when devs arrogantly listen to only a few on a clique-like Discord channel and trap themselves in a bubble.

 

I remain because I want to give the new team a chance.

 

 

Dasty

Edited July 28, 2022 by Jdast

[Ardrossan]

In this case, SWTOR had a new game design team that aspired to rebuild the game from the burnt ground up in the way they envisioned. They failed to recognize they lacked the resources to do so. Their vision wasn't ambitious and audacious, it was arrogant and naive. Let's stipulate that I disagreed fundamentally with their design views for the game. I made that clear.

 

While I admire your optimism [not pictured in this quote ], it seems like the crux of your point is that the design team is new and because of that will/have made mistakes, but will eventually (hopefully) pull together and create something half decent. Have I understood you right?

 

Here's the thing. They aren't new.

 

I suspect if you are here in the forums that I am no stranger to you. I started in these very forums as a fan myself over 10 years ago, moved onto the Community Team, became CM, moved into Production, and now I am typing this message to you as Lead Producer.

 

I’ve been a part of SWTOR several times over the years, including at the game’s launch, during KOTFE/KOTET, and finally rejoining the SWTOR team for Echoes of Oblivion and beyond, as well as leading the cinematic team on Legacy of the Sith.

 

Hi all. It’s been a while!. I’m George and I’m the Gameplay Design Director. I’ve been working on SWTOR for almost a decade now, first as part of the team that built many of the Operations, now working with the teams in charge of player combat and systems. SWTOR has been a big part of my life for these last 10+ years, and I’m excited to be able to be a part of its future going forward.

 

Hi everyone, I’m Alan Copeland, UX Director for SWTOR and I’ve been working on AAA games for nearly two decades, working on SWTOR specifically since early 2020.

 

Before I was a Game Writer, I was a Narrative Specialist, and my contributions to the narrative team go as far back as 2014, when I started providing feedback for the expansion’s story during the development of Shadow of Revan. In every Star Wars: the Old Republic update since then, my primary responsibility has been working with writing, design, art, and cinematics to ensure our story content adheres to a particular standard of quality.

 

These people are not new to swtor, or new to working together, Dasty. The newest is the UX director, who's been here for two years. They are simply introducing themselves to us for the first time. So...YMMV, but to me, these people are responsible for years of changes--many of them explicitly referencing some not so good changes, imo--and I think players should hold them accountable for 7.0 in particular, including for the fact of them waltzing in like everything is fine and they're just fresh faced newbies, how y'all doing?

Edited July 27, 2022 by Ardrossan

[OlBuzzard]

Yes, for some inter-related reasons. This will get a bit lengthy (brevity is not my strongpoint) so...

 

TL;DR: The Dev team bit off way more than they could chew. It was a failure not only of design, but project management and execution. Regardless of industry, I have witnessed when new people arise to power and, like Emperor Nero, have felt the need to burn Rome to the ground and attempt to rebuild it in their image. They typically do so to build up their resumes and brand their own impramatur on the game (or company, restaurant, agency, etc.). They, like Emperor Nero, also typically fail.

 

In this case, SWTOR had a new game design team that aspired to rebuild the game from the burnt ground up in the way they envisioned. They failed to recognize they lacked the resources to do so. Their vision wasn't ambitious and audacious, it was arrogant and naive. Let's stipulate that I disagreed fundamentally with their design views for the game. I made that clear. I don't feel I was ignored. I felt my views (shared by others) were simply rejected as is their purview. I voiced my concerns, voted with my wallet, and moved on to other games. The only reason I'm back (and remain) is because they are gone. So we are are clear, I am not talking about the creative side, but the gameplay side.

 

But even if you accepted the vision of the previous game design team, they failed in implementation.

 

1) They did nothing to reduce Time to Kill (TtK);

2) Class balance remains atrocious;

3) Level sync remains screwed up;

4) Bugs galore not only in the Main Story Questline (MSQ), but elsewhere.

 

All of this assumes I agreed with the now defunct design team's vision, which I most certainly did not. They wasted time on irrelevant issues and failed to understand SWTOR's comparative advantage; hence the reason I only subscribed for six of the last 19 months and bought zero Cartel Coins. This is what happens when devs arrogantly listen to only a few on a clique-like Discord channel and trap themselves in a bubble.

 

I remain because I want to give the new team a chance.

 

 

Dasty

 

Several interesting points. Issues that we could spend time debating notwithstanding, Let's just say I understand where you are coming from. (in no particular order)

** the clique-like Discord channel. I remember when this discussion came up. I was somewhat concerned at the time that a "handful" of folks would determine that the game needed to be changed in view of different style of play for SWTOR. It did. and 7.0 was given birth at that point in time (before it was launched).

 

** BUGS !! Oh my!! seems as though regardless of how much content was released it was just a mess! SoV being at the top of that list of things that just went wrong! (YES I know that there were others).

 

** Level sync .. [/facepalm] ... When done correctly this is not an ISSUE ... WHEN it's done correctly.

 

** Balance ?? Enough said

 

Additionally:

** Companions have been dead for way to long. This use to be a fun part of the game ... and it's dead. (has been for a long time now too).

 

** Companions abilities nerfed beyond recognition. At first it was companions running all over the place and not being where they needed to be ( Or just stand there looking stupid) ... Now they might just as well go home! This works for a handful. (But not everyone).

 

** Gearing up: I don't need a handful of folks telling me what works and what doesn't. After receiving 4 pieces of the same item in one week when everything else was needed ... AND watching this same scenario unfold as it did on Osus and JUS I had my mind made up I wasn't going to waste my time as the preverbal hamster in the cage running the same stuff over and over and over and over and over and over again while receiving a TOKEN drop that I already had 4 copies of in my inventory (which was essentially useless). Frankly I stopped playing. And frankly up until the last few days I got the impression that as far as the TEAM was concerned ... Everything was working as intended. It should also be noted that the cap for tech fragments needed in order to get said gear pieces up to any sort of respectable level is a laughable joke.

 

** AS for what remains to be seen:

 

YES, you are correct regarding another chance for redemption. I believe in giving anyone another chance. I hated to see things unfold as they did. It has resulted in losses on both sides (Players and team members). YES, I'm very much aware of the divisions that will need to be dealt with. (And there are a few).

 

Regardless of how we got to this point the next step to look at (and hopefully without a sense of retribution) is "Where do we go from here?"

 

So many of us want to see the game continue. Not just from a standpoint of maintenance or some sense of obligatory function but rather with style and success.

 

I will personally make an effort be here until January of next year. By then we should have a better understanding of what is unfolding in SWTOR.

[Xhuuyaa]

The biggest problem with 7.0 is that it sucked all the fun out of the game.

Everything feels like a great slog, grindy, bugged, repetitive, discouraging, not rewarding and an absolutely waste of time.

 

One look on how much more tech fragments I need, how often I have to run Nefra NiM again and how useless all other things are and I just want to log out.

[DavidAtkinson]

There is a lot of doom and gloom lately surrounding this game , and some of is understandable . After all, the devs did a good job at selling us the 10 year anniversary thing and keeping us hyped about it, but kinda failed to live up to their promises in the end. If you ask me, they kinda shot themselves in the foot.

 

Because I remember the initial news about 7.0 was all shiny about content, content.... Now we managed to get a very short story instead which is most likely unfinished. The trailer was exceptionally well done , but by the time I actually got to see that twilek jedi, it was already the end of the new story and it was like for a brief time only.

 

The gearing is .. for me very bad and there were changes made to what 6.0 was like that bring or add nothing new .

 

After KOTEt and KOTFE there was a trend of shorter and shorter updates content wise which culminated with 7.0 . My expectations regarding this expansion were very moderate because I didn't want to get disappointed and personally, I got what I expected . Nothing more , nothing less . It seems that a lot of players had very unrealistic expectations .

 

Honestly, this is a ten year old game . It already has a ton of content and expecting releases like back in the days of Hutt Cartel or 2.0 times is unrealistic and will never happen. I work in the automotive industry and the management of our company sees only numbers and that's mostly what they cared about. I suspect the gaming industry is the same in many aspects. Newer projects produce better numbers for the companies and that's what Bioware did in the meantime. They moved on to a big part of their team to focus on new projects that look more promising $$$ wise . After all , we shouldn't forget that it's about money as well, not just art and entertainment.

 

I really love this game since 2015 , but I don't expect miracles . You know , at some point , all things end . Let's hope that things get a bit better in time. Maybe they realize what they did wrong and improve . 6.0 did a lot of things right , but sadly 7.0 was your typical 3 steps back after 2 steps forward.