New information about combat styles in 7.0

[LordCamTheGreat]

So I've just watched the SWTOR Escape Pod Cast where Chris Schmidt was interviewed about features in 7.0 and will list what was revealed during the interview and how I think things are going to work as I understand them.

 

1. Class rebalancing and pruning is being done to redefine a new baseline for classes as there has been an arms race between class power level - especially in terms of defensives - over time. By cutting out some abilities and restructuring classes, there is more flexibility to add "new and interesting things" and potentially add new combat styles in the future - something that hasn't been done ever. Whether this means new combat styles as advanced classes or disciplines remains to be seen. (From my understanding, a combat style is for all intents and purposes an advanced class and each combat style has 3 disciplines the same as live)

 

2. The current intent is for there to be 2 [update: more like 4-5, see end of post] loadouts for subscribers. A loadout will save your current gear setup, outfit, ability positions and hotkeys. There are technical limitations and too many loadouts would lead to worse in game performance. This is not completely set in stone and the devs are open to allowing more in the future. Loadout choices are not permanent and you can have multiple within one combat style.

 

3. Your 2 combat style choices are permanent. Once you've picked them, you cannot change them (though again, there might be room to replace one in the future). As a brand new player, you pick one combat style and that is all you get until you complete your third story arc of the base game. After that, you unlock a second combat style to choose from. This is tied to your legacy, so if one character has completed their third arc, any new character will immediately have 2 combat styles. This is to prevent an information overload on new players. Chris said that it is much cleaner for the dev team to have the choices be permanent. Chris also argued that there is a high cognitive cost on players if you switch between many different combat styles (though arguably having to switch to an alt character has an even higher cognitive cost). The devs are open to increasing the number of combat styles available in the future and potentially allowing you to replace one.

 

4. The light and dark requirement for force based combat styles is light and dark V(5) and again, this is tied to your legacy, so if you have one character at dark or light 5, it unlocks it for other characters. If one character in your legacy has light 5, all characters in the legacy gain access to cross faction combat styles - even at level 1. Once you hit light or dark 5 for the first time as a new player, you get an option to immediately switch your combat style to the opposite faction mirror. For players who already have light and dark 5 in their legacy, you can play a jedi with sith abilities at level 1 for e.g. The devs don't want your first experience with star wars to be playing a jedi who shoots lightning, but for older (veteran) players, go ham.

 

5. You cannot change your combat style within a phase - this includes warzones, flashpoints and operations. From the sounds of it you will be able to switch styles between warzone rounds (4v4). Outside of phases, you can freely switch combat styles and disciplines within those at will. Changing ABC options within your discipline likely won't have a cost as there are no points to distribute, you always have something chosen. The game chooses ABC options by default but you can change them freely. Changing disciplines might still have a cost, whether it be buying field respec or spending time travelling to the fleet vendor. Chris doesn't want to add a cost to respeccing combat styles or ABC choices. Freely switch between your 2 combat styles and ABC choices, use field respec or fleet vendor to change disciplines within those styles - the same as you do on live.

 

6. Yes utilities are gone. The ABC tree is a replacement. Not only can you freely switch ABC choices, but popular utilities are being rolled into base abilities opening space for new things to choose. This also prevents situations where you forget to pick your utilities as ABC always gives a default choice.

 

7. Level 75 set bonus gear will not work on level 80 characters. Some tacticals that we use all the time and have become rotational will be baked into the abilities. Chris said that "maybe 10% of the combat tacticals" will be baked into abilities in this way. Some tacticals might remain, but don't expect them to. The cosmetic tacticals probably won't change.

 

8. Why can't my jedi use blasters? Tech vs force is more of a technical limitation, the devs are open to exploring it in the future and a lot of players have picked up on the fact that weapons don't really affect animations, if you gave a tech user a lightsaber they'd shoot it like a gun when performing their animations. As such, there is a large time and technical investment required to create new animations. But, the devs see loadouts and swapping combat styles as a step in that direction and so we could definitely see jedi using blasters in the future. For force users specifically, the devs feel like there needs to be an alignment restriction to match the canonical feeling of republic good, sith evil.

 

 

 

So, my understanding of picking combat styles is as follows:

 

During character creation, you pick your class story.

You then pick your first combat style (same as you pick advanced classes now, but you pick from a pool of all the force or tech combat styles depending on your class) - this choice is permanent.

You play through your story as normal with your one combat style (3 disciplines within your combat style) until you complete act 3, at which time you get to choose a second combat style (advanced class). This is permanent.

 

Your second and subsequent characters pick a class story and combat style at level 1, but you then immediately gain access to a second combat style also at level 1 as soon as you enter the game, and can freely switch between without needing to reach act 3. If your first character hit light 5 or dark 5, all the republic or sith options will also be unlocked for that new character.

 

Now you have access to 2 combat styles and 6 disciplines. Effectively you have more freedom in the advanced class you pick during character creation, and twice as many disciplines per character than on live.

 

 

 

If something doesn't make sense, I'll try and explain it differently based on the information I have.

 

All in all, it's not what I personally thought we were going to get, but hearing a dev talk about their reasoning in a more in depth manner gives me a lot more hope and much greater understanding for the new systems. If cutting some abilities means we get full new combat styles in the future, then I can accept that. The point about not wanting to invalidate alt accounts by letting you switch between all combat styles makes sense, especially if it would result in worse in game performance (and we already struggle with that at times).

 

 

 

EDIT: even more new information

Glad people enjoyed the interview. Sema and I had fun doing it. I'll be happy to try to clarify a few things here including the the number of Loadouts (more than 2) that we'll get which we followed up on today. Most of the rest is explained in the interview and we'll all get to try it out soon:

 

1) Combat Styles will be limited to up to 2 permanent choices. These are equivalent to advanced classes today. Limiting to two provides a reduction in complexity per character, lower impact on server resources, and makes alts and playing other class stories still valuable.

2) Loadouts are related to but not limited by combat styles and you will have more loadouts than combat styles potentially up to 4-5 depending on current design goal, subscriber levels, etc. So yes, you will be able to switch between DPS, Heal and your PvP loadout. Loadouts are not permanent.

3) Light/Dark requirement for cross faction Combat Styles will be limited only for new players to provide a new lore/canon experience that makes a bit more sense. Once you hit Dark 5, for example, that legacy achievement then allows you to pick up Sorc Combat Style on any Jedi from then on whenever you want.

 

 

Loadouts are NOT permanent. You will have more loadouts than combat styles. You can have multiple loadouts in within one combat style.

Edited August 22, 2021 by LordCamTheGreat

[Baletraeger]

1. Will I be able to make multiple loadouts to cover multiple disciplines? For example, If I choose Merc and PT as my 2 Combat Styles, can I set up loadouts for AP, Shield, IO, and Bodyguard, which are all going to have different gear and tactical sets?

 

2. What is happening to the Onslaught sets and Tacticals? Will we be able to buy them from a vendor to complete the associated achievements?

[LordCamTheGreat]

1. Will I be able to make multiple loadouts to cover multiple disciplines? For example, If I choose Merc and PT as my 2 Combat Styles, can I set up loadouts for AP, Shield, IO, and Bodyguard, which are all going to have different gear and tactical sets?

 

2. What is happening to the Onslaught sets and Tacticals? Will we be able to buy them from a vendor to complete the associated achievements?

 

Sadly the interview didn't fully answer the first question imo. They stated that we'd get 2 loadouts (as a subscriber) and specifically mentioned that we would be able to switch between the 2 combat styles using loadouts. From what's been said, combat styles are the equivalent of advanced classes, so my understanding is that you set a base loadout for your Mercenary, but don't have 3 specific loadouts for each of the 3 disciplines within the Mercenary combat style. It might be that you pick a default discipline for your loadout and everything is saved for that specific discipline, but if you want to switch to say a healer from a dps as a merc, you'll have to do that manually.

 

Nothing was mentioned about the achievements aspect for onslaught sets and tacticals, though you can probably look back at past sets and achievements that are unavailable to see how that would work. The sets themselves won't work at level 80, the same as level 70 sets don't work for 75. Some tacticals will be reworked/removed/replaced, as said above about 10% will be baked into abilities.

[Baletraeger]

Nothing was mentioned about the achievements aspect for onslaught sets and tacticals, though you can probably look back at past sets and achievements that are unavailable to see how that would work. The sets themselves won't work at level 80, the same as level 70 sets don't work for 75. Some tacticals will be reworked/removed/replaced, as said above about 10% will be baked into abilities.

 

There have never been gear set achievements before, this was a completely new feature that was introduced in Onslaught.

[LordCamTheGreat]

There have never been gear set achievements before, this was a completely new feature that was introduced in Onslaught.

 

We'll have to wait and see.

[Baletraeger]

We'll have to wait and see.

 

But I want to know if I can stop grinding TC all day

[LordCamTheGreat]

But I want to know if I can stop grinding TC all day

 

If you want to get the achievements, then yes you should probably keep spamming out TC lol

 

If you don't care about the achievements, the sets will be useless in 7.0 so there's no real point grinding them out now unless you are looking to do the hardest content in the game.

[Alithia]

So I can use loadout 1 for Lightning Sorc and with the press of a button change to Sorc Healer,- That is good since I hate to manually respec and change gear.

 

Does this include outfiots? E.g Lightning Sorc in a dark robe but healer in .. let#s say something more techy looking?

[LordCamTheGreat]

So I can use loadout 1 for Lightning Sorc and with the press of a button change to Sorc Healer,- That is good since I hate to manually respec and change gear.

 

Does this include outfiots? E.g Lightning Sorc in a dark robe but healer in .. let#s say something more techy looking?

 

Chris did say that loadouts would include outfits, I think he gave an example of having outfit 2 for one loadout then outfit 4 for the other loadout.

[Alithia]

But by outfit they mean actual gear with stats. Makes sense to have different taticals and set boni as a healer.

[LordCamTheGreat]

But by outfit they mean actual gear with stats. Makes sense to have different taticals and set boni as a healer.

 

They said gear and outfit. So, your set bonus and tactical and the outfit you stamp can all be added to a loadout.

[SteveTheCynic]

But by outfit they mean actual gear with stats. Makes sense to have different taticals and set boni as a healer.

The example mentioned outfits 2 and 4. That means that Chris meant *outfits*. But it's fairly obvious that they mean for loadouts to include *gear* as well, so you can have a set with Commando stuff (e.g. cannon) and a set with Operative stuff, and the weapons change correctly.

[Nihaelis]

At a glance I'm not keen on the limit of only 2 loadouts per character, or that the two combat styles are permanent. I get that there are technical limitations as well as BW's want to maintain alts. But I also foresee much complaining and many.many tickets opened to customer support because of mistakes and accidents.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

5. You cannot change your combat style within a phase - this includes warzones, flashpoints and operations.

 

Does this mean no more swapping roles withing a fp/op? I don't do it often, but still switch from dps to heals/tanks once in a while when a player afks/rage quits. ... or the reverse.

 

It's minor I suppose, can always leave, change specs, then come back.

[LordCamTheGreat]

At a glance I'm not keen on the limit of only 2 loadouts per character, or that the two combat styles are permanent. I get that there are technical limitations as well as BW's want to maintain alts. But I also foresee much complaining and many.many tickets opened to customer support because of mistakes and accidents.

 

That was my initial impression as well. I think 2 loadouts and 2 combat styles is too limiting. I'd much rather have 3 if possible because that completes the holy trinity of 1 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer loadout. A lot of people are probably going to pick a combat style that has stealth - a topic that was discussed in the interview - because it's just so valuable for skipping content and that takes up your second combat style. I don't think customer support would be able to do anything to help people who make mistakes because you can't change your advanced class on live without remaking your whole character, but we'll see.

 

Chris did mention the possibility for being able to replace one of your styles and having more overall in the future, so as of now I'm just seeing it as an opportunity to have twice the flexibility I have on live. We'd all rather be able to have unlimited loadouts and more than 2 combat styles, but what we're getting is still more than what we have on live. I also wouldn't be surprised is if/when we do eventually get another combat style (something the devs see as a possibility with this new system), players are given either another slot or a chance to replace a current style with the new one. Again, I would not be surprised if loadout and combat style capacity upgrades are put onto the cartel market at some point down the line with.

[LordCamTheGreat]

Does this mean no more swapping roles withing a fp/op? I don't do it often, but still switch from dps to heals/tanks once in a while when a player afks/rage quits. ... or the reverse.

 

It's minor I suppose, can always leave, change specs, then come back.

 

This appears to be the case. Chris gave an example stating that if you wanted to switch your role during a flashpoint or op, you'd have to leave the phase and then rejoin it - comparing it to logging out and logging into a different character where you essentially leave the phase and rejoin on another character. The reason it's more of a hassle to do is to prevent people from signing up as a healer or tank, then immediately swapping to dps when they get into the flashpoint or operation.

 

If all else fails, a decent level companion will carry you through flashpoints anyway!

[Ardrossan]

7. Level 75 set bonus gear will not work on level 80 characters. Some tacticals that we use all the time and have become rotational will be baked into the abilities. Chris said that "maybe 10% of the combat tacticals" will be baked into abilities in this way. Some tacticals might remain, but don't expect them to. The cosmetic tacticals probably won't change.

 

While I assumed as much, it's still very irritating to hear this confirmed. Every time they roll out new gear, they act as if this time it's different, this time they'll be keeping this forever and just adjusting, and then they proceed to do something completely different. I LIKE the tactical system. What happened to horizontal gearing?

[LordCamTheGreat]

While I assumed as much, it's still very irritating to hear this confirmed. Every time they roll out new gear, they act as if this time it's different, this time they'll be keeping this forever and just adjusting, and then they proceed to do something completely different. I LIKE the tactical system. What happened to horizontal gearing?

 

From what they've said, we are keeping tacticals. Some tacticals will remain in their current state, some will be removed and baked into abilities, others will be removed and replaced with new ones. Considering they are supposedly rebalancing all the classes to a new baseline, it makes sense to scrap the set bonuses and make new ones and change some of the tacticals.

[Nihaelis]

Oh you know people will still open tickets even if CS can't help. But yeah, I definitely like that this new system is being built with the idea of expansion. That's unquestionably a good decision, and I would much rather have two options than the one. I just wish they were not so restricted. Two would be fine if they allowed them to be respec'd freely. I guess we'll just see how it shakes out.

[Darth-Obvious]

That was my initial impression as well. I think 2 loadouts and 2 combat styles is too limiting. I'd much rather have 3 if possible because that completes the holy trinity of 1 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer loadout. A lot of people are probably going to pick a combat style that has stealth - a topic that was discussed in the interview - because it's just so valuable for skipping content and that takes up your second combat style.

 

This was my thought as well.

 

For my Imperial Agent Sniper I was thinking it'll be cool to be able to pair it with Operative and be able to have all the Agent abilities under one roof but for basically every other class (minus the mirror class - Smuggler) it feels like the meta will be to always have a style that can stealth. "Oh it'll be cool to for my Guardian to be able to switch to range style like Sage but I should probably pick Shadow as my second style so I can stealth."

 

It feels like there's no effort to resolve the bigger issue or the elephant in the room of "Hey why do so many players want to stealth past so much of your game's content instead of engage with it? Same applies to open-world PVE where players do everything they can to avoid mobs via stealth or speeders.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Darth-Obvious

[LordCamTheGreat]

This was my thought as well.

 

For my Imperial Agent Sniper I was thinking it'll be cool to be able to pair it with Operative and be able to have all the Agent abilities under one roof but for basically every other class (minus the mirror class - Smuggler) it feels like the meta will be to always have a style that can stealth. "Oh it'll be cool to for my Guardian to be able to switch to range style like Sage but I should probably pick Shadow as my second style so I can stealth."

 

It feels like there's no effort to resolve the bigger issue or the elephant in the room of "Hey why do so many players want to stealth past so much of your game's content instead of engage with it? Same applies to open-world PVE where players do everything they can to avoid mobs via stealth or speeders.

 

There really do need to be more rewards for completing bonus objectives. On my newest guardian, I've been doing all the exploration missions and most of the bonus missions too just for completionist sake. While doing them, it was incredibly obvious how much of a waste of time they are for anyone who wants to get an actual reward out of them apart from just turning in a mission. If bonus missions gave tech frags (most bonus missions being kill things), I bet a tonne more players would actually want to do them rather than skipping. All the rewards in flashpoints are found within the bosses, the stuff inbetween offers nothing for players. But, if you reward players too much for killing the mobs, they'll just grind those and ignore the bosses. It's a tricky situation.

[LordCamTheGreat]

Oh you know people will still open tickets even if CS can't help. But yeah, I definitely like that this new system is being built with the idea of expansion. That's unquestionably a good decision, and I would much rather have two options than the one. I just wish they were not so restricted. Two would be fine if they allowed them to be respec'd freely. I guess we'll just see how it shakes out.

 

The fact that one of the devs deliberately said that this system enables them to do interesting and crazy things like adding a new combat style, and wanting to eventually remove the barrier between force and tech classes makes me a lot more accepting of the decision to limit loadouts and combat styles. Communication done well, give the community reasoning for why there are these restrictions and give examples of plans for the future.

[Eli_Porter]

3 should be the number, to let you alternate between T/H/D.

[Darth-Obvious]

There really do need to be more rewards for completing bonus objectives. On my newest guardian, I've been doing all the exploration missions and most of the bonus missions too just for completionist sake. While doing them, it was incredibly obvious how much of a waste of time they are for anyone who wants to get an actual reward out of them apart from just turning in a mission. If bonus missions gave tech frags (most bonus missions being kill things), I bet a tonne more players would actually want to do them rather than skipping. All the rewards in flashpoints are found within the bosses, the stuff inbetween offers nothing for players. But, if you reward players too much for killing the mobs, they'll just grind those and ignore the bosses. It's a tricky situation.

 

I feel like a big part of all that and what I'm talking about is the amount of time it takes to deal with mobs or regular enemies and the start/stop flow of combat that comes along with that.

 

Whether you're in the open world or an instance PVE combat basically flows as such

 

- Move forward till you get to the enemy

- Engage enemy

- Movement speed is reduced

- Target Enemy 1

- Attack Enemy 1 (with simple rotation) till they're dead

- Target Enemy 2

- Attack Enemy 2 (with same rotation) till they're dead

- Target Enemy 3

- Attack Enemy 3 (with same rotation) till they're dead

- All enemies are dead

- Repeat

 

The pacing and flow almost feels like a very simple or classic turn based JRPG in some ways and there's this constant start/stop start/stop rhthym to it but when you look at the way people something like Battlefront, Jedi Fallen Order, etc, they generally want to engage with the combat and aren't trying to skip enemies.

 

Now I'm not saying SWTOR should play like those other games or copy that exact style but there are changes Bioware could make to prevent the mob combat loop from being basically the exact same experience with every encounter.

 

It's not the rewards that I feel are the issue but more that players don't actually want to engage with the combat in those scenarios because it's so boring, repetitive, slow, samey, etc.

[TonyTricicolo]

Two things I do not like so far:

 

Disciplines choices are permanent. What? Why can't respec to something else?

Can not switch loadouts while in a phase. The majority of the game is in a phase.

Edited August 20, 2021 by TonyTricicolo