New expansion and the waste of resources

[bladech]

Now when most of players understood what new combat styles mean, it is depressing to see that resources (which are highly limited for well-known reasons) will be used for this....for possibility to play old story content on same classes but with different weapons and abilities of other old classes. Same story content which were played by most swtor players dozens of times (including both vanilla stories, kotfe, kotet etc.).

 

Is this what limited resources must be spent on? What this game needs is new classes or at least new advanced classes, possibility to swap animations of certain abilities (e.g. to take sentinel's blade storm on juggernaut instead of ugly force scream while keeping other juggernaut's dark side abilties), pvp revamp (yes, i know that it was mentioned on the stream but it was mentioned not as a part of a big expansion but as "future plans for 2022" which is too vague and far), new maps for pvp, more operations, new events with new zones, awesome cosmetic rewards for doing all types of content etc.

 

Iam sure there are players who will be glad to go through old story content with their powertech using blaster rifle but considering that most of players went through all present content many times, i bet 5 million credits that after 3 weeks of new combat system existence we will see numerous new threads on forum with titles like "Is that all? Crumbs of story content and possibility to play same commando content with old sniper abilities?"

Edited July 4, 2021 by bladech

[Phazonfreak]

Is this what limited resources must be spent on? What this game needs is new classes or at least new advanced classes

 

Which might be exactly the course they set out for themselves with the introduction of combat styles. Decoupling the character story from the prescribed class combat mechanics will make it much easier for them to eventually add new advanced classes in the shape of combat styles to the game.

 

Think of it this way: Instead of using the limited resources to add one other advanced class to only one of the core classes, they will be able to add one other combat style that will be shared by all core classes of that branch.

 

I don't consider this a waste of resources at all.

[Hermetist]

Phazonfreak

 

For me personally, the biggest downside of the approach the devs has taken with combat styles is that the whole conception of class identity gets curbstomped and the bloody remains go straight to sarlacc pit.

 

For example, Imperial Agent, who is supposed to be a James Bond-style subtle, stealthy, cunning and charismatic as hell infiltrator (in both variants, operative and sniper) now becomes a heavily armored brute that goes up-front with an assault cannon blazing. And that is what we get instead of simply giving the operative advanced class the opportunity to swap a damned blaster rifle for pistol - which could involve a simple possible renaming of his only ability that uses it and straight copying the animations from its mirror class that uses a pistol already (and speaking logically, a blaster shot is a blaster shot, regardless of agent or scoundrel being the one who fires it).

 

That would be the approach that I would like to see. You choose a primary weapon (in the example above, rifle or pistol) - you get a set of abilities related to it, exactly same from mechanical standpoint, but different in flavor, you choose a secondary weapon (if any) in similar fashion. But personally I would limit the choices available in this way considering the identity and roles of classes as they are.

 

What's more funny, with this approach you also do not need a ton of new animation, as they are already here.

[SithKoriandr]

Phazonfreak

 

For me personally, the biggest downside of the approach the devs has taken with combat styles is that the whole conception of class identity gets curbstomped and the bloody remains go straight to sarlacc pit.

 

For example, Imperial Agent, who is supposed to be a James Bond-style subtle, stealthy, cunning and charismatic as hell infiltrator (in both variants, operative and sniper) now becomes a heavily armored brute that goes up-front with an assault cannon blazing. And that is what we get instead of simply giving the operative advanced class the opportunity to swap a damned blaster rifle for pistol - which could involve a simple possible renaming of his only ability that uses it and straight copying the animations from its mirror class that uses a pistol already (and speaking logically, a blaster shot is a blaster shot, regardless of agent or scoundrel being the one who fires it).

 

That would be the approach that I would like to see. You choose a primary weapon (in the example above, rifle or pistol) - you get a set of abilities related to it, exactly same from mechanical standpoint, but different in flavor, you choose a secondary weapon (if any) in similar fashion. But personally I would limit the choices available in this way considering the identity and roles of classes as they are.

 

What's more funny, with this approach you also do not need a ton of new animation, as they are already here.

 

You don't have to go fully armored with an assault cannon on your agent.

 

Personally, I never felt a sniper rifle felt in place for an Agent. So, there was already issues of what doesn't and does feel right to the players.

 

Now you can go Scoundrel Combat Style for the blaster pistol on your Agent. Or any of the other blaster pistol using styles (though, thinking on it, isn't there only Gunslinger that really uses the Blaster Pistols, while the others do a basic shot and then rely on everything else?)

[Pricia]

Which might be exactly the course they set out for themselves with the introduction of combat styles. Decoupling the character story from the prescribed class combat mechanics will make it much easier for them to eventually add new advanced classes in the shape of combat styles to the game.

 

Think of it this way: Instead of using the limited resources to add one other advanced class to only one of the core classes, they will be able to add one other combat style that will be shared by all core classes of that branch.

 

I don't consider this a waste of resources at all.

 

Agreed to an extent. I mean... the only thing I'm looking forward to in combat styles is to be able to get DS abilities on my DS Jedi. So yes, not exactly a priority in my book BUT it would be very easy after that to add new combat styles - which would be nice (with a lot of characters, you're bound to have some repetition).

 

That being said - given the choice I'd rather they focused on more stories/romance updates than give us new combat styles too... so I kinda agree with OP.

[TonyTricicolo]

Do you know how long it would take them to make animations for every single weapon for every single ability? They used what resources they had to make a fresh spin on classes. I'm looking forward to the loadout system. Let's see how it turns out before jumping to conclusions.

[omaan]

Which might be exactly the course they set out for themselves with the introduction of combat styles. Decoupling the character story from the prescribed class combat mechanics will make it much easier for them to eventually add new advanced classes in the shape of combat styles to the game.

 

Think of it this way: Instead of using the limited resources to add one other advanced class to only one of the core classes, they will be able to add one other combat style that will be shared by all core classes of that branch.

 

I don't consider this a waste of resources at all.

 

If this was the case, they would tell us why they are doing it. But they introduced combat styles just for story mode and thats why on stream they talked only about story mode when explaining new combat system. I agree with you that combat styles unties their hands with creating new classes/advanced specs but knowing bioware i doubt they see full potential of their own actions. More like they will provide combat styles and then do NOTHING for another year. You can expect from them only straightforward, short-termed actions without any long-term planning. There are many examples of how they ignore potential of things they provided before - darkside/lightside competition, Illum pvp zone which were removed because game's core could not handle it, uprisings which were provided and then forgotten. You overestimate their planning....

Edited July 4, 2021 by omaan

[Alssaran]

If this was the case, they would tell us why they are doing it. But they introduced combat styles just for story mode and thats why on stream they talked only about story mode when explaining new combat system. I agree with you that combat styles unties their hands with creating new classes/advanced specs but knowing bioware i doubt they see full potential of their own actions.

 

No, they wouldn't. They were talking specifically about 7.0 and said multiple times that the stream was very broad, surface level stuff. Details, implementations and post 7.0 content for 2022 would be spoken about in detail at a later date. In fact, I cannot stress this enough: telling us now would be a terrible idea. They might currently be in the conceptual phase of development. Brainstorming ideas, testing some rough "alpha level" gameplay and so on. Telling us now that they are making a new class, but then following it up with: "Don't expect it before holiday 2022" would be a terrible idea. That's an announcement for something a year and a half in the future.

 

For me personally, the biggest downside of the approach the devs has taken with combat styles is that the whole conception of class identity gets curbstomped and the bloody remains go straight to sarlacc pit.

 

Eh, I think it's a bit late to cry wolf on this one. My trooper can already look like a Jedi, a Sith, a smuggler and a bounty hunter without any repercussions. I can have companions from other classes, different outfit styles, heavy armor on light armor classes and light armor on heavy classes. Class identity to me is voice acting, the class stories, and the subtle nuances even in the continuing story (e.g someone says I was the Barsen'thor instead of the Wrath). My Sith Warrior using a double-bladed lightsaber doesn't invalidate anything about him at all.

 

For example, Imperial Agent, who is supposed to be a James Bond-style subtle, stealthy, cunning and charismatic as hell infiltrator (in both variants, operative and sniper) now becomes a heavily armored brute that goes up-front with an assault cannon blazing.

 

I understand this is largely personal opinion, but if you don't want your operative to do that, you don't need to make your operative into a commando. I feel you took one of the most extreme examples to make a point while leaving out the dozens of other combinations that can make sense.

 

For example, why shouldn't there be a powertech agent? An agent who uses all the gizmos and little tech tricks in the book to finish their mission and only wields one blaster pistol James Bond style for maximum maneuverability?

 

Why shouldn't there be a gunslinger bounty hunter? Someone in medium armor and with two blaster pistols who doesn't use gadgets, but rather fights as an ace shot and throws a couple explosives and thermal grenades? Cad Bane is a pretty well liked bounty hunter in the shows and doesn't wear heavy armor at all.

 

Why should my Sith Warrior not be able to fight with a double-bladed lightsaber and use lightning? Lightning is a Sith ability and a double-bladed lightsaber is first and foremost a lethal weapon. Why should a Sith warrior not wield one? Savage Oppress wore heavy armor and still used a saberstaff.

 

I feel like "class identity" doesn't really apply to Star Wars that much. Is it really integral to the identity of the trooper that he can't fight like a sniper and use cover? What kind of soldier doesn't use cover? Is it really that immersion breaking that my Sith Warrior is Savage Opress as opposed to having two lightsabers...?

Edited July 4, 2021 by Alssaran

[OddballEasyEight]

Phazonfreak

For example, Imperial Agent, who is supposed to be a James Bond-style subtle, stealthy, cunning and charismatic as hell infiltrator (in both variants, operative and sniper) now becomes a heavily armored brute that goes up-front with an assault cannon blazing.

 

 

Yes, because we all know that James Bond's most iconic weapon is a rifle or sniper rifle, right?

 

Also, the Imperial Agent doesn't "become a heavily armored brute" unless you specifically make him like that. (and I've seen plenty of those running around already since we have customizable outfits without "heavy", "light" or "medium" armour requirements any more).

 

Phazonfreak

And that is what we get instead of simply giving the operative advanced class the opportunity to swap a damned blaster rifle for pistol - which could involve a simple possible renaming of his only ability that uses it and straight copying the animations from its mirror class that uses a pistol already (and speaking logically, a blaster shot is a blaster shot, regardless of agent or scoundrel being the one who fires it).

 

 

Umm... no... I think you're underestimating the effort it would take to do those changes.

 

Also, you're completely forgetting all the other classes.

[OddballEasyEight]

If this was the case, they would tell us why they are doing it.

 

Hahahaha... no.

 

That's not how gaming companies work.

[OddballEasyEight]

 

Eh, I think it's a bit late to cry wolf on this one. My trooper can already look like a Jedi, a Sith, a smuggler and a bounty hunter without any repercussions.

 

Case in point, I have a full video series of a playthrough of the Sith Warrior storyline as a Mandalorian Force User... Full mando outfit and all.

[Alssaran]

Case in point, I have a full video series of a playthrough of the Sith Warrior storyline as a Mandalorian Force User... Full mando outfit and all.

 

I actually hope we get a new tech melee class that uses electrostaffs and so on with this new combat style approach. I have been meaning to play a melee bounty hunter for ages (e.g Mandalorian armor and a vibroblade.) The new Force-imbued ancient blade and Mythran Hunter glaive make me want to do that even more. My problem is that once my character starts talking, he goes on about the Force, the Sith code and so on.

 

If I could play a glaive wielder with tech powers or use the blade on a Mandalorian with the Juggernaut's animation rig, I would be eternally happy.

[xordevoreaux]

What this game needs

--snip--

 

Put ten players in a room, you'll get ten answers as to what this game needs and where resources should go. Some would say PvP. Others just bug fixes. Others graphics. Others story content. Others more cartel items. The list goes on.

 

There is no absolute.

Edited July 4, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[bladech]

--snip--

 

Put ten players in a room, you'll get ten answers as to what this game needs and where resources should go. Some would say PvP. Others just bug fixes. Others graphics. Others story content. Others more cartel items. The list goes on.

 

There is no absolute.

 

thats the problem, there are so many needs in this game yet devs have chosen combat styles which were asked the least...on my memory i saw only 1-2 threads asking to allow powertech to use blaster rifle. Thats all i saw, while pvp revamp, changing quests in team ranked, new classes/advanced classes, cross-server queue, more incentives for uprisings and team ranked were asked dozens of times....

[Alssaran]

thats the problem, there are so many needs in this game yet devs have chosen combat styles which were asked the least...on my memory i saw only 1-2 threads asking to allow powertech to use blaster rifle. Thats all i saw, while pvp revamp, changing quests in team ranked, new classes/advanced classes, cross-server queue, more incentives for uprisings and team ranked were asked dozens of times....

 

And the developers literally announced many of those features during the livestream. Graphic overhauls, UI improvements, a PvP rework? It was all on the slide for 2022.

[Calwred]

i am mainly looking for new story content and not like we have been getting one or 2 missions, i want a full expansion perhaps with the amount of missions in KOTFE< KOTET and perhaps Revan all put together at one time not one here and another there kind of thing.

[omaan]

And the developers literally announced many of those features during the livestream. Graphic overhauls, UI improvements, a PvP rework? It was all on the slide for 2022.

 

When it comes to announcing changes which will come after more than one year, you can expect never to see it. "something better than cross server queue" was promised long ago, and players still can't understand what it is. This game can't wait to 2022, why not make it with BIG expansion, considering that it is "BIG". If such serious things like new advanced classes, pvp revamp, graphic changes, new quest systems aren't coming with BIG expansion, i can't imagine when it will come then. There is literally no time for such enormous changes as BIG EXPANSION. Iam sure after autumn expansion bioware will forget about swtor for another year or two same as they did in the past

Edited July 4, 2021 by omaan

[Alssaran]

When it comes to announcing changes which will come after more than one year, you can expect never to see it. "something better than cross server queue" was promised long ago, and players still can't understand what it is. This game can't wait to 2022, why not make it with BIG expansion, considering that it is "BIG". If such serious things like new advanced classes, pvp revamp, graphic changes, new quest systems aren't coming with BIG expansion, i can't imagine when it will come then. There is literally no time for such enormous changes as BIG EXPANSION. Iam sure after autumn expansion bioware will forget about swtor for another year or two same as they did in the past

 

They never said it was a big expansion. They said they had been working on something big. And yes, I would consider an entire year of breaking up the class system, adding a new UI, doing technical backend work, improving the graphics and textures (however slightly) and a PvP rework as a pretty big change to the game overall.

 

People keep repeating "BIG EXPANSION" over and over again when that was never what they said. They teased that they were working on something big for the tenth anniversary. It was just that people jumped into the bandwagon and said: "that must mean a new expansion the size of Revan, KotFE and KOTET combined!"

 

I personally consider a year full of important changes a very big step.

[Savej]

They never said it was a big expansion. They said they had been working on something big. And yes, I would consider an entire year of breaking up the class system, adding a new UI, doing technical backend work, improving the graphics and textures (however slightly) and a PvP rework as a pretty big change to the game overall.

 

People keep repeating "BIG EXPANSION" over and over again when that was never what they said. They teased that they were working on something big for the tenth anniversary. It was just that people jumped into the bandwagon and said: "that must mean a new expansion the size of Revan, KotFE and KOTET combined!"

 

I personally consider a year full of important changes a very big step.

 

We still don't know how big the story will be. And there's a new raid. Elom/Manaan with new daily areas could be Ossus (+) or it could be Onderon (-), hard to say at this point. From what we've seen so far the xpac's pretty much everything we could have hoped for at this point. It would be great if EA doubled down on SWTOR and put another few hundred mill into developing and overhauling the game. But EA doesn't do that sort of thing and I doubt there are many EA execs that think BW has earned that kind of investment even if they otherwise might have considered it.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Savej

[bladech]

They never said it was a big expansion. They said they had been working on something big. And yes, I would consider an entire year of breaking up the class system, adding a new UI, doing technical backend work, improving the graphics and textures (however slightly) and a PvP rework as a pretty big change to the game overall.

 

People keep repeating "BIG EXPANSION" over and over again when that was never what they said. They teased that they were working on something big for the tenth anniversary. It was just that people jumped into the bandwagon and said: "that must mean a new expansion the size of Revan, KotFE and KOTET combined!"

 

I personally consider a year full of important changes a very big step.

 

Term new or next expansion already means something BIG. Yes, they didn't use term big but they used terms next/new expansion, NEXT ERA for swtor etc - https://gyazo.com/8f5193c5d3dffdecf8ac9c36813dede6

 

Term ExPAnSiOn is used in many MMO to indicate big changes, decent amount of new content etc. For instance, in wow you can see lich king, mists of pandaria, cataclysm expansions each of one had big changes, new ways of playing the game, new classes, dungeons, balance changes etc. Meanwhile, in swtor we see new expansion announcement which brings possibility to swap old classes for old story content and some glimpse for future pvp revamp. They should have bring all big and needed changes with one expansion instead of dividing it into several parts. So we will have combat styles in autumn but pvp revamp in the end of 2022? New advanced classes in 2023? Changes to team ranked quests in 2024? Players needs all these IN NEAR FUTURE not in 1-3 years

[JJKerryee]

Term new or next expansion already means something BIG. Yes, they didn't use term big but they used terms next/new expansion, NEXT ERA for swtor etc - https://gyazo.com/8f5193c5d3dffdecf8ac9c36813dede6

 

Term ExPAnSiOn is used in many MMO to indicate big changes, decent amount of new content etc. For instance, in wow you can see lich king, mists of pandaria, cataclysm expansions each of one had big changes, new ways of playing the game, new classes, dungeons, balance changes etc. Meanwhile, in swtor we see new expansion announcement which brings possibility to swap old classes for old story content and some glimpse for future pvp revamp. They should have bring all big and needed changes with one expansion instead of dividing it into several parts. So we will have combat styles in autumn but pvp revamp in the end of 2022? New advanced classes in 2023? Changes to team ranked quests in 2024? Players needs all these IN NEAR FUTURE not in 1-3 years

 

I really don't get what is supposed to be your point? Do I wish unicorns existed? Obviously, it would be pretty cool. But they don't. Any SWTOR player that has been here for a meaningful amount of time knows they don't have the resources for anything that big so what's your point? If you were truly expecting a gigantic expansion, with every system revamped, you have only yourself to blame. I dare say what we got was more than expected and the improved communication of what exactly is the game's future is a welcomed improvement.

[OriusPrime]

Even the old combat styles never made much sense, or rather, they were never put to good use in your class story anyway. Being a Gunnery Commando with a huge-*** Assault Cannon would still have your Trooper pulling out a pathetic pistol in the cutscene instead of the BFG. Therefore, I don't see why it would matter if my Trooper uses a Lightsaber or anything that doesn't suit his class - the class story/cutscenes never bothered to associate your combat style with your character anyway.

[SithKoriandr]

Even the old combat styles never made much sense, or rather, they were never put to good use in your class story anyway. Being a Gunnery Commando with a huge-*** Assault Cannon would still have your Trooper pulling out a pathetic pistol in the cutscene instead of the BFG. Therefore, I don't see why it would matter if my Trooper uses a Lightsaber or anything that doesn't suit his class - the class story/cutscenes never bothered to associate your combat style with your character anyway.

 

Which is likely why a lot of people want this change in combat style.

 

Now they can load their Agent up with a pistol they pull out. The Trooper can do the same. Assassin can pull out the single blade that it forces them into in later expansions.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot more blaster users

[MadDutchman]

Phazonfreak

 

For me personally, the biggest downside of the approach the devs has taken with combat styles is that the whole conception of class identity gets curbstomped and the bloody remains go straight to sarlacc pit.

 

For example, Imperial Agent, who is supposed to be a James Bond-style subtle, stealthy, cunning and charismatic as hell infiltrator (in both variants, operative and sniper) now becomes a heavily armored brute that goes up-front with an assault cannon blazing. And that is what we get instead of simply giving the operative advanced class the opportunity to swap a damned blaster rifle for pistol - which could involve a simple possible renaming of his only ability that uses it and straight copying the animations from its mirror class that uses a pistol already (and speaking logically, a blaster shot is a blaster shot, regardless of agent or scoundrel being the one who fires it).

 

That would be the approach that I would like to see. You choose a primary weapon (in the example above, rifle or pistol) - you get a set of abilities related to it, exactly same from mechanical standpoint, but different in flavor, you choose a secondary weapon (if any) in similar fashion. But personally I would limit the choices available in this way considering the identity and roles of classes as they are.

 

What's more funny, with this approach you also do not need a ton of new animation, as they are already here.

 

I do not get this at all.

 

We already have the female BT1 cannon wielding dancer clad commandos running around. Is THAT adhering to class identity?

[omaan]

I really don't get what is supposed to be your point? Do I wish unicorns existed? Obviously, it would be pretty cool. But they don't. Any SWTOR player that has been here for a meaningful amount of time knows they don't have the resources for anything that big so what's your point? If you were truly expecting a gigantic expansion, with every system revamped, you have only yourself to blame. I dare say what we got was more than expected and the improved communication of what exactly is the game's future is a welcomed improvement.

 

you need to start reading titles of threads and text itself. He doesn't say devs don't have resources, he states that they waste them in wrong direction. Instead of useless ability swap system they could do something more useful and interesting