PSA: It's not "rewarding losing"

[Raansu]

I’ve suggested multiple ways Bioware could reward effort even for people who lose. But I think it’s all in the too hard basket for them or they lack the money and resources to do it.

 

You underestimate the power of mmo players to do as little as possible to complete something. You could make it 5:1 and have the daily take 40 losses to complete it and people would happily halfass their way through 40 losses. Wins only is hands down the best answer and the fact that matches were improving before GS proves that. GS came in without win requirement and we're back to the same problem where people are just sleepwalking their way through the match. Actually had a huttball where a dude was running the ball to our side and passing it to the enemy team to end the match as fast as possible so he could finish his GS which further puts me into the opinion that GS missions that land on pvp should require wins.

[TrixxieTriss]

Actually had a huttball where a dude was running the ball to our side and passing it to the enemy team to end the match as fast as possible so he could finish his GS which further puts me into the opinion that GS missions that land on pvp should require wins.

 

That’s a real sucky thing to do. I’ve seen people purposely do stuff like that. I had a guy the other week who stayed stealth the whole of VS and was telling the other team when we were trying to stealth cap the door. He was actually calling incs for them in chat because he didn’t like the premade on our team. We won anyway, which seemed to really rile him up and the abuse started. From what I can tell, he’s now on a “permanent swtor” holiday.

 

I also don’t fully disagree with you about people taking the low road to get things done. But can you imagine spending the time to purposely lose 40-50 matches (especially 8s which are 10-12min matches) That would be torture to go through that amount of time. There is something severely wrong with those sorts of players. But they are not that common, probably no more than the handful of cheats the game attracts. We can’t keep penalising the masses to root out a handful of bad apples because all it does is drive the regular “innocent” players away.

 

Usually when I see people afk in a match it’s because its more than a forgone conclusion and the other team are full premade vs newbie pugs + 1 or 2 vets. I rarely see anyone run straight to a corner and afk like the old days (pre 5.0) and I’d see the rubbish once a day at least. The only other times I’m seeing people give up is when you have an arena premade of lvl 70s vs sub lvl 30 pugs. It’s honestly the most ludicrous situation that you may as well apply lube so you don’t get chaffing when they pummel you.

 

Expect for those examples, I can’t remember the last time I saw someone purposely afk in a match to make it end faster.

 

On the flip side, I’m still getting back filled because people are rage quitting and I’m still getting put with teams who don’t even try to win because their only goal is scoreboard preening. I’d rather lose fast because my team is incompetent or gives up than lose because my team doesn’t even care about winning. Which is what I believe the win requirement was also supposed to address.

 

The problem as I see it is you have BioWares approach of all or nothing that drives players from the game. And you also have a system that doesn’t really offer enough rewards to make winning more of an incentive. You don’t even get rewarded enough gear for winning and the gear you get is never as high as what you have on already. The whole incentive thing is so weak and that why people DM at the expense of trying to win cause the rewards are rubbish.

Edited June 25, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

I'll agree with most of what your saying, but you seem to be stuck on the third stage of grief, which is the anger and bargaining stage.

 

I'm on the acceptance stage. or at least I was, until Galactic Seasons flooded pvp with disinterested players. The fix for that isn't giving those people even more "expected returns for static time investment".

 

LoL, I seem to rotate through the stages of grief when it comes to this game. Next week it will be denial and the one after that will be acceptance till we swing back to anger again.

I’ve started to think Swtor is like an abusive relationship. You know in your heart you should leave but you always find a reason to stay.

Edited June 25, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[DarkTergon]

I’ve started to think Swtor is like an abusive relationship. You know in your heart you should leave but you always find a reason to stay.

 

sad but true :/

[TrixxieTriss]

sad but true :/

 

We all need a swtor support group

Edited June 25, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[Severith]

did you forget to make an actual point, or did it get deleted....

 

You said you didn't agree with it, and started talking about gear for some reason, so I stated the point more fully. You don't need to know how to play your class in order to play GSF. If you're still confused, I can't help you.

[Severith]

No, the fix is to have solo options that are just as easy and rewarding as gsf/pvp , something that they like to do, that way, they'd pick the option they prefer, instead of one that gave most, etc.

 

GSF and PVP isn't rewarding compared to most SWTOR content. What it is, is EASY, when you que up with the intention of losing. Kind of like stating comments like yours in a forum.

[DarkTergon]

You said you didn't agree with it, and started talking about gear for some reason, so I stated the point more fully. You don't need to know how to play your class in order to play GSF. If you're still confused, I can't help you.

 

Ah, so you didn't understand what you said yourself, and what I said confused you more...now I understand.

 

you said "especially for alts on classes that you didn't like to play, simply because you rely on your ships abilities, and not your character's abilities."

 

which basically says the ship matters not the player, but that is not true, which is why I said "But not this, it's like saying in pvp it all depends on your gear. Having a good ship in gsf, is like having good gear in pvp, it will help, but a good pvp, or gsf person can run rings around a better equipped person."

 

Maybe you didn't word what you were saying correctly, or succinctly,

 

BUT I'm sure the GSF players here can tell you, that although you don't need to know your class, you do need to know your ship, and the better you know your ship, the better you can play.

 

So as I said, a player in PvP, who knows his class, can run around in crap gear, and still stomp a bad player in full gear....

Same as a player in gsf, in a basic ship, who knows the ship, can stomp a person in a maxed ship.

Ships abilities in gsf, is the same as class abilities. At the end of the day, skill will win out on ship/gear

 

Hope this clarifies it.

[DarkTergon]

GSF and PVP isn't rewarding compared to most SWTOR content. What it is, is EASY, when you que up with the intention of losing. Kind of like stating comments like yours in a forum.

 

GSF is the most rewarding content going, for everything. It pops faster than everything, rewards everything, even when not participating, and can be done at level 10, whether sub or not, with no penalties.... name 1 thing that actually is better than that.

 

Pvp has been nerfed, especially with the win only. BUT a team of skilled pvp players (and yes, we've seen them) can queue up, and reap in just as much rewards as the gsf crowd, just as easy, etc. BUT for GS, even a novice pvp player can do pvp mission, quickly, and have their weekly done in less that 30 mins, name any other weekly, that can do that. (apart from gsf, which we've already discussed)

Edited June 26, 2021 by DarkTergon

[TrixxieTriss]

which basically says the ship matters not the player, but that is not true, which is why I said "But not this, it's like saying in pvp it all depends on your gear. Having a good ship in gsf, is like having good gear in pvp, it will help, but a good pvp, or gsf person can run rings around a better equipped person."

 

BUT I'm sure the GSF players here can tell you, that although you don't need to know your class, you do need to know your ship, and the better you know your ship, the better you can play.

 

So as I said, a player in PvP, who knows his class, can run around in crap gear, and still stomp a bad player in full gear....

Same as a player in gsf, in a basic ship, who knows the ship, can stomp a person in a maxed ship.

Ships abilities in gsf, is the same as class abilities. At the end of the day, skill will win out on ship/gear

 

Hope this clarifies it.

 

As a newish GSF player I can attest to this. My wife’s ships are now fully spec’d but she can’t seem to get higher than 4% aim and a few assists. She plays every day and it feels like she’s getting worse and not better.

Where as I can jump on a new alt that’s not upgraded any ships and get 4-5 kills and hit 30% aim accuracy now. Every time I play my skills get better. And sure you can tell the difference in matches where your ship isn’t geared, but the ship doesn’t make the pilot/player. You can have the most tricked out ships like my wife and still be really bad.

[Severith]

Ah, so you didn't understand what you said yourself, and what I said confused you more...now I understand.

 

you said "especially for alts on classes that you didn't like to play, simply because you rely on your ships abilities, and not your character's abilities."

 

which basically says the ship matters not the player, but that is not true, which is why I said "But not this, it's like saying in pvp it all depends on your gear. Having a good ship in gsf, is like having good gear in pvp, it will help, but a good pvp, or gsf person can run rings around a better equipped person."

 

Maybe you didn't word what you were saying correctly, or succinctly,

 

BUT I'm sure the GSF players here can tell you, that although you don't need to know your class, you do need to know your ship, and the better you know your ship, the better you can play.

 

So as I said, a player in PvP, who knows his class, can run around in crap gear, and still stomp a bad player in full gear....

Same as a player in gsf, in a basic ship, who knows the ship, can stomp a person in a maxed ship.

Ships abilities in gsf, is the same as class abilities. At the end of the day, skill will win out on ship/gear

 

Hope this clarifies it.

 

And you can have the exact same setup for your ship and ship abilities for all of your alts, therefore not needing to actually play the class the alt belongs to. I'm not understanding why you're struggling with the concept.

[Severith]

As a newish GSF player I can attest to this. My wife’s ships are now fully spec’d but she can’t seem to get higher than 4% aim and a few assists. She plays every day and it feels like she’s getting worse and not better.

Where as I can jump on a new alt that’s not upgraded any ships and get 4-5 kills and hit 30% aim accuracy now. Every time I play my skills get better. And sure you can tell the difference in matches where your ship isn’t geared, but the ship doesn’t make the pilot/player. You can have the most tricked out ships like my wife and still be really bad.

 

If Bioware made a new class tomorrow, and you made an alt of the class, how would not knowing how that new class functions impact your ability to pilot with that character in GSF? It wouldn't.

[TrixxieTriss]

If Bioware made a new class tomorrow, and you made an alt of the class, how would not knowing how that new class functions impact your ability to pilot with that character in GSF? It wouldn't.

 

True, but what’s your point?

[DarkTergon]

And you can have the exact same setup for your ship and ship abilities for all of your alts, therefore not needing to actually play the class the alt belongs to. I'm not understanding why you're struggling with the concept.

 

No, each ship has it's own set up, you can have multiple ships, plus, you can have different options on just exact same ships, the last part of each of the upgrades have two options. So whether pvp, or gsf, you can have set builds, or you can express yourself.

 

As for struggling, I think you back yourself into a corner and are now spouting anything that pops in to mind to get yourself out, but it's not working.

[DarkTergon]

If Bioware made a new class tomorrow, and you made an alt of the class, how would not knowing how that new class functions impact your ability to pilot with that character in GSF? It wouldn't.

 

new class has nothing to do with gsf. If they made a new ship, how would any class effect that, you do see you are comparing apples and oranges, and getting pears....

[Severith]

True, but what’s your point?

 

I made a statement that you don't need to know your class to play GSF, and that lends itself to conquest farming on alts. Someone said they didn't agree with that statement, so I clarified for them, they kept arguing, and you supported their arguments, not knowing the origin of the argument, evidently.

[Severith]

No, each ship has it's own set up, you can have multiple ships, plus, you can have different options on just exact same ships, the last part of each of the upgrades have two options. So whether pvp, or gsf, you can have set builds, or you can express yourself.

 

As for struggling, I think you back yourself into a corner and are now spouting anything that pops in to mind to get yourself out, but it's not working.

 

And if you had 20 alts, and wanted to keep things simple and easy, you could all choose the same ships with all the same options.

 

Before the more recent conquest changes, which made conquest "for everyone" GSF was dead. It wasn't the participation rewards that somewhat revived GSF, it was the easy conquest, especially for alts on classes that you didn't like to play, simply because you rely on your ships abilities, and not your character's abilities.

 

That's the statement you said you disagreed with. You're talking about gear for some reason, and expressing yourself, which has nothing to do with the methods people use to farm conquest in their zombie like fashion. You need to take a breath and think about your words.

[TrixxieTriss]

I made a statement that you don't need to know your class to play GSF, and that lends itself to conquest farming on alts. Someone said they didn't agree with that statement, so I clarified for them, they kept arguing, and you supported their arguments, not knowing the origin of the argument, evidently.

 

I’m not trying to get in the middle of something. I was just trying to understand your point, which I think you’ve now explained. Which is you feel people are farming conquest in GSF cause there is no win requirement? Am I right or am I missing something else?

[Severith]

I’m not trying to get in the middle of something. I was just trying to understand your point, which I think you’ve now explained. Which is you feel people are farming conquest in GSF cause there is no win requirement? Am I right or am I missing something else?

 

I'm saying that repeatedly pointing out that "GSF is doing great with it's no win requirement" is gaslighting, because people farm it out for conquest points, especially on alts. It was a dead game mode before the "conquest for everyone" changes occurred. The no-win requirement is largely irrelevant to that situation, because if there was a win requirement for the dailies and weeklies they'd still farm GSF for conquest anyways.

[DarkTergon]

And if you had 20 alts, and wanted to keep things simple and easy, you could all choose the same ships with all the same options.

 

 

And if you have 20 ops and wanted to keep things simple and easy, you could all choose the same equipment with all the same options.

[Severith]

And if you have 20 ops and wanted to keep things simple and easy, you could all choose the same equipment with all the same options.

 

You're the one who butted into a discussion, between me and Enticy.

 

Granting progress on the weekly and daily with losses will only bring in more people. And GS proves that by just counting matches played instead of just wins. GSF counts matches played, and no one has said anything about that game mode dying. So, I say bring back the system of counting matches played instead of just wins.

 

Enticy invoked the whole "But it works in GSF" argument, but we all know the reason GSF "works" is conquest, not the daily/weekly missions.

 

At this point, you're arguing just to argue. Enjoy your FF14, but I don't think the community is going to like you over there.

[DarkTergon]

You're the one who butted into a discussion, between me and Enticy.

 

A private conversation...in a public forum, how novel ...wait, no it isn't, because it's a public forum, once it's out there , ANYONE can talk on it. If you want a private chat, we have PM's for that.

 

 

At this point, you're arguing just to argue. Enjoy your FF14, but I don't think the community is going to like you over there.

 

 

So you realise your argument was invalid, and has wasted time on the forums, so you try to insult me instead. I could respond to that, but I don't need to sink to that level.

 

As for FF14, I am enjoying it, thank you, and the community over there are quite nice, it's a bit like here, you get some really decent people, but of course you get the <redacted> . The decent people seem to like me, so I'm ok, as for the <redacted> , who cares, they are <redacted>

[TrixxieTriss]

I'm saying that repeatedly pointing out that "GSF is doing great with it's no win requirement" is gaslighting, because people farm it out for conquest points, especially on alts. It was a dead game mode before the "conquest for everyone" changes occurred. The no-win requirement is largely irrelevant to that situation, because if there was a win requirement for the dailies and weeklies they'd still farm GSF for conquest anyways.

 

Both GSF and WZ pvp should offer the same conquest points etc. Its sad that they dont. You also get more rewards in GSF than pvp for losing and winning. Which is also bad for pvp and good for GSF.

What’s worse is pvpers have been forced to go play pve flash points to gear up for pvp instead of actually pvping because the rewards are so poor in pvp vs your time spent. On top of that, if you want BiS pvp gear, you have to play Operations or Kai Bingo each week. The whole system is backwards.

 

I do agree the GSF was nearly dead before the changes (except for a small core group). But there are reasons as well as GS and conquest to why its having a revival. One is there is no win requirement to complete your missions. Two is there are better rewards. Both of those should be the same for pvp. We should have better rewards and we shouldn’t have a win only requirement for regs (especially in lowbies where balance and matchmaking is a disaster).

 

BioWare could easily add extra conquest incentives for pvp like they have for each GSF ship type.

Play 5 matches on a warrior class.

Play 5 matches on a Inquisitor class.

Play 5 matches on a Bounty Hunter class.

Play 5 matches on a Agent class.

Doing this might actually improve pvp skill as well because players would learn how other classes worked better and how to counter them.

 

The underlying problem for any part of this game that requires a group is lack of population. The game is old, but BioWare keep making decisions that also drive more players away than they attract. That’s the real core issue. Low population means BioWare have to find mechanisms to get people playing content they don’t like or don’t want to play.

None of which would be needed if BioWare stopped driving players from the game.

Edited June 28, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

<redacted>

 

Damn, that would be a great name for a guild lol

 

<redacted>

[SeCKSEgai]

Games aren't fun when you're playing with parasites, they suck all the fun out of it. So no, Dr. Cflems, you are incorrect, because you lack the basic understanding of the context of a modern gamer, where humans are surrounded by more information and more forms of entertainment then they can possibly consume in a lifetime. Games, and other forms of entertainment, need to compete for the ATTENTION of players, not simply their participation.

 

Stop rewarding the losers. It costs them nothing to que and lose, not even their time. That's why they see any form of reward as profitable. If they happen to win off of the people who actually give the game attention, even better.

 

Funny little story I forgot to mention.

 

Yesterday, in lowbies, got a Huttball. Decided to not touch the ball to see what would happen.

 

4 minutes.

 

4 minutes of two teams of eight people, and no one touched the ball.

 

People queing for pvp are not there to win. They're there to get their galactic season daily done, and that's kinda sad.

 

I just had to respond to this --- Starting off with so and so is incorrect because of ASSUMPTIONS and the reason is ASSUMPTIONS.... and in the very next post to effectively negate even that and directly stating people aren't there to win.

 

Most of my valor came before 5.5 and I was waaaaay more active in pvp then. But even back then, you were at the mercy of the teams and a lot of matches were decided simply but which side actually had healing.

 

Fast foward to now, there's little motivation to pvp for me. Requiring wins makes me even less motivated to do so. Seasons daily and weekly missions have been the driving force, and only because I don't get punished for how my team does. I'm always trying to win but I also have more than enough matches to know when teams are too-lopsided (for better or worse). The only other two factors giving me reason to queue is working my main to 100 valor and finishing off the last bit for manhunter. Considering the slog its been to get from 85 to 87, it takes a lot of time spent just to nudge the bar. As much as I'd like to finish that 100 I probably will give up on it because the journey won't be worth the completion.

 

Attention in pvp hasn't been the issue --- team composition, skill and organized premades are far more decisive. If not for seasons pvp participation would have dwindled even further. As for GSF, conquest alone wasn't enough to get most people to bother as on my server the queue had only continued to become less reliable. Seasons breathed new life into the queue bringing a much needed influx of new players. Sure match quality suffered but it usually wasn't that great to begin with and no longer wondering if you're waiting 15 minutes or an hour or more is worth it.