Conquest, Crafting, and Balance

[SteveTheCynic]

And i say it was exploited, You just dont know how, and evidence provided to the devs changed the system because of this, give a thanks to the big guilds if youre bothered.

There were enough discussions on how it was done that survived long enough that it *is* known what happened. It was in that fuzzy territory at the edge of "it's an exploit" - it was using normal procedures in the game to gain an advantage based on an long-since unavailable schematic, but it was clearly not doing what the system was meant to do. The specific schematic was disabled for Conquest participation, and it made essentially no difference, so now we have what we have.

there are 20 other planets you can do exactly the same CQ or even more like on CZ198, youre obviously ignoring this as an example rather than a solution. crafting was exploited and good that they made it a daily instead of an infinite mission.

CZ gets mentioned because it is significantly quicker to do than the others, and gets you your 50K points anyway. If you're trying for 50K points, it's better than the other daily areas (Yavin is nice, but the stuff's way more spread out than on CZ).

Also how is crafting less boring than doing dailies? this makes 0 sense.

Crafting is less boring because unless you're doing "cram crafting" (where you sit there doing nothing but cramming stuff into your crafting interface, using grade 1 schematics and rank 50 companions), you can do something else while you do it, duh.

And what do you mean "too many people" there are several instances on each planet if there are "too many people".

And each instance holds up to 100 players (maybe more), which is way far too many for farming CZ to be remotely time efficient.

[DWho]

There were enough discussions on how it was done that survived long enough that it *is* known what happened. It was in that fuzzy territory at the edge of "it's an exploit" - it was using normal procedures in the game to gain an advantage based on an long-since unavailable schematic, but it was clearly not doing what the system was meant to do. The specific schematic was disabled for Conquest participation, and it made essentially no difference, so now we have what we have.....

 

I think this is the main argument for putting it back where it was in some semblance of what it was before. The nerfs made no difference which is very indicative of something that was not really a problem in the first place. The closest Bioware ever came to saying there was an exploit was to say that some aspects of Crafting could be automated (they never really said that they were - with the exception of the multi-craft schematics). Putting everything back the way it was except for limiting one crafting mission to 1 "craft result" (2 with a critical) would have no substantial impact on the main Conquest Guilds (outside the perhaps the once in a blue moon event where a crafting guild spent weeks or months preparing by gathering mats and then organizing crafting sessions much like PVP guilds organize PVP events, flashpoint guilds organize flashpoint events, GSF guilds organize GSF events, etc).

 

Conquest weeks used to have a focus. There were WZ weeks, GSF weeks, Flashpoint weeks, and Crafting weeks. Now every week is GSF week. Things should be reverted back to only specific activities related to the week being high yield or infinitely repeatable instead of the same activities every week. That would "encourage" Conquest Guilds to expand their objectives to more play styles and allow more people to participate without having to join the three of four super guilds just to get the titles and the other bonuses related to conquering a planet. Crafting also is a substantial drain on credits in the game if a guild decides to go the route of buying mats from the vendors or running missions for them (credits are taken right out of the game)

[Beoknez]

Well then your small guild should easily hit the large-cap every week - just make sure yall have your 150% stronghold bonus.

 

my "small" guild hits 5 mil cq in 1-2 days, i think you mistake me for the other ppl who think conquest is hard to get

[Beoknez]

There were enough discussions on how it was done that survived long enough that it *is* known what happened. It was in that fuzzy territory at the edge of "it's an exploit" - it was using normal procedures in the game to gain an advantage based on an long-since unavailable schematic, but it was clearly not doing what the system was meant to do. The specific schematic was disabled for Conquest participation, and it made essentially no difference, so now we have what we have.

 

CZ gets mentioned because it is significantly quicker to do than the others, and gets you your 50K points anyway. If you're trying for 50K points, it's better than the other daily areas (Yavin is nice, but the stuff's way more spread out than on CZ).

 

Crafting is less boring because unless you're doing "cram crafting" (where you sit there doing nothing but cramming stuff into your crafting interface, using grade 1 schematics and rank 50 companions), you can do something else while you do it, duh.

 

And each instance holds up to 100 players (maybe more), which is way far too many for farming CZ to be remotely time efficient.

 

1 point

 

the evidence was provided in video format with how the cheating/botcrafting was done/installed/exploited. If You want to deny evidence, go ahead.

 

2 point

 

You, for the second time, ignore that i mention CZ 198 as an example. You also ignore that You can do that daily.

If You install a 50 Gigabyte game to play it 10 minutes to finish something then youre doing it wrong.

 

3 point

 

You now admit that You do something else than crafting, You just confirm what i say by just framing it in a different argument

 

4.

 

Switch instances

 

 

 

I also need to mention that if it doesnt change anything, then it can stay as it is.

The items You craft in the game are a reward on its own, thats what crafting should be first and second only a conquest objective.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Beoknez

[Beoknez]

I think this is the main argument for putting it back where it was in some semblance of what it was before. The nerfs made no difference which is very indicative of something that was not really a problem in the first place. The closest Bioware ever came to saying there was an exploit was to say that some aspects of Crafting could be automated (they never really said that they were - with the exception of the multi-craft schematics). Putting everything back the way it was except for limiting one crafting mission to 1 "craft result" (2 with a critical) would have no substantial impact on the main Conquest Guilds (outside the perhaps the once in a blue moon event where a crafting guild spent weeks or months preparing by gathering mats and then organizing crafting sessions much like PVP guilds organize PVP events, flashpoint guilds organize flashpoint events, GSF guilds organize GSF events, etc).

 

Conquest weeks used to have a focus. There were WZ weeks, GSF weeks, Flashpoint weeks, and Crafting weeks. Now every week is GSF week. Things should be reverted back to only specific activities related to the week being high yield or infinitely repeatable instead of the same activities every week. That would "encourage" Conquest Guilds to expand their objectives to more play styles and allow more people to participate without having to join the three of four super guilds just to get the titles and the other bonuses related to conquering a planet. Crafting also is a substantial drain on credits in the game if a guild decides to go the route of buying mats from the vendors or running missions for them (credits are taken right out of the game)

 

It should be put more on activity and less on single player activity, with crafting being the least important thing. I wish the Warzone rewards would be bigger for example.

But we see a rise in other guilds on the leaderboards that are not the "classic" ones on top all the time

 

I also think that more planets should be available, it would diversify the leaderboard and not make it monopolistic as it is. Now for the other changes necessary to make it more balanced, not a single person has suggested anything and most people arguing about this debacle are the same people coming from those large guilds defending crafting, which is hilarious.

 

Perhaps a public poll for everyone to choose what changes they wish with info on why and how this is asked would be a great idea instead of back-paddling to the same nonesense from the same player-base that believes is representing some sort of community.

 

The biggest change problem i see however is this stupid grace period, suggested by the same large guilds. instead of making a fundamental blockade against ninja invites. And that is a much bigger issue than crafting something and getting millions of conquest points from it.

[Oblivz]

I think this is the main argument for putting it back where it was in some semblance of what it was before. The nerfs made no difference which is very indicative of something that was not really a problem in the first place. The closest Bioware ever came to saying there was an exploit was to say that some aspects of Crafting could be automated (they never really said that they were - with the exception of the multi-craft schematics). Putting everything back the way it was except for limiting one crafting mission to 1 "craft result" (2 with a critical) would have no substantial impact on the main Conquest Guilds (outside the perhaps the once in a blue moon event where a crafting guild spent weeks or months preparing by gathering mats and then organizing crafting sessions much like PVP guilds organize PVP events, flashpoint guilds organize flashpoint events, GSF guilds organize GSF events, etc).

 

Conquest weeks used to have a focus. There were WZ weeks, GSF weeks, Flashpoint weeks, and Crafting weeks. Now every week is GSF week. Things should be reverted back to only specific activities related to the week being high yield or infinitely repeatable instead of the same activities every week. That would "encourage" Conquest Guilds to expand their objectives to more play styles and allow more people to participate without having to join the three of four super guilds just to get the titles and the other bonuses related to conquering a planet. Crafting also is a substantial drain on credits in the game if a guild decides to go the route of buying mats from the vendors or running missions for them (credits are taken right out of the game)

 

Except this has been going for longer than you think. Back before the points got increased, they were still doing it and back then IT DID make a difference.

 

I'm tired of idiots who think clearly proven cheating and ninja-inviting is not an issue to the overall health of the game and doesn't have an effect despite the fact that it can be proven otherwise.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Oblivz

[Beoknez]

Except this has been going for longer than you think. Back before the points got increased, they were still doing it and back then IT DID make a change.

 

I'm tired of idiots who think clearly proven cheating and ninja-inviting is not an issue to the overall health of the game and doesn't have an effect despite the fact that it can be proven otherwise.

 

"uh oh, but my small family guild suffers from not having crafting as a conquest reward" is also a argument i saw , which is laughable and ridiculous.

My guild works with 20 smaller guilds together, none of them do crafting for conquest or in very very rare instances they start crafting a bit but focus more on OPs and FP activity, or even warzones for the more stablished players.

 

Same people introduced grace period to "save precious conquest", which is just another reason to smash your face in the wall.

[Oblivz]

"uh oh, but my small family guild suffers from not having crafting as a conquest reward" is also a argument i saw , which is laughable and ridiculous.

My guild works with 20 smaller guilds together, none of them do crafting for conquest or in very very rare instances they start crafting a bit but focus more on OPs and FP activity, or even warzones for the more stablished players.

 

Same people introduced grace period to "save precious conquest", which is just another reason to smash your face in the wall.

 

Ah yes, the imfamous "grace period" which did absolutely nothing to deter the same guilds from ninja inviting and only hurt the guilds who had nothing to do with this nonsense.

[DWho]

Ah yes, the imfamous "grace period" which did absolutely nothing to deter the same guilds from ninja inviting and only hurt the guilds who had nothing to do with this nonsense.

 

It removed at least one guild from Conquest or forced them to change their name due to their reputation for blatant use of the invite and kick exploit (they were also the guild that championed elimination of crafting as a viable means to compete for a top 10 finish oddly enough), so if you believe crafting was cheating and damaging the game then the invite and kick exploit was as well and should have been removed regardless of the side effects.

[DarkTergon]

It removed at least one guild from Conquest or forced them to change their name due to their reputation for blatant use of the invite and kick exploit (they were also the guild that championed elimination of crafting as a viable means to compete for a top 10 finish oddly enough), so if you believe crafting was cheating and damaging the game then the invite and kick exploit was as well and should have been removed regardless of the side effects.

 

unfortunately some people only call it cheating when they don't use it, but when they do, it's ok.

As was mentioned already, the real exploits were, the invite/kick, which was sorted, and the multiple crits from the low level schematic, which gave points quickly, etc, etc. , which was also dealt with, by muting the crit effect, one tick, no matter how many you produce.

 

What wasn't an abuse was the genuine crafting objectives, but people who didn't craft, nor understand it were up in arms, because a couple of very <redacted> people cleverly used them as a mob. Unfortunately I don't see them ever putting it back to how it was, but they should at least reinstate the crafting week, gsf has two weeks, wz's one, fp's one, etc.

[Beoknez]

unfortunately some people only call it cheating when they don't use it, but when they do, it's ok.

As was mentioned already, the real exploits were, the invite/kick, which was sorted, and the multiple crits from the low level schematic, which gave points quickly, etc, etc. , which was also dealt with, by muting the crit effect, one tick, no matter how many you produce.

 

What wasn't an abuse was the genuine crafting objectives, but people who didn't craft, nor understand it were up in arms, because a couple of very <redacted> people cleverly used them as a mob. Unfortunately I don't see them ever putting it back to how it was, but they should at least reinstate the crafting week, gsf has two weeks, wz's one, fp's one, etc.

 

 

are you joking?

 

the ninja invite and kicking was NOT solved or sorted AT ALL. instead you set a bot to ninja invite on monday so on the next day during the reset the members count as full members. The grace period is the fault of insecure GMs of those big guilds who have caused nothing but headaches and problems because of their insecurities.

 

BOTTING is and will always will be an issue, they could for example, just like with mails, make a cooldown system with guild invites, NOT a stupid grace period. This would prevent a bot from sending invites to 100 players a minute.

 

An the macro botting where you made 10+ mil conquest is thank god removed, again, play the game for conquest instead of crafting for conquest, this is ridiculous.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Beoknez

[Oblivz]

It removed at least one guild from Conquest or forced them to change their name due to their reputation for blatant use of the invite and kick exploit (they were also the guild that championed elimination of crafting as a viable means to compete for a top 10 finish oddly enough), so if you believe crafting was cheating and damaging the game then the invite and kick exploit was as well and should have been removed regardless of the side effects.

 

Lol, you're talking about one of the guilds that are still very much ninja-inviting, they just condense this to Sunday-Monday. This nonsense did nothing to fix it and you should see that. I have the screenshots to prove it.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Oblivz

[DWho]

Lol, you're talking about one of the guilds that are still very much ninja-inviting, they just condense this to Sunday-Monday. This nonsense did nothing to fix it and you should see that. I have the screenshots to prove it.

 

It did get rid of the invite on Tuesday, boot on Wednesday, invite on Wednesday, boot on Thursday, etc which was hammering new players to the game and giving all guilds a very bad reputation. It was more about the bad game experience than Conquest Points although it was a serious exploit anyway. The number of CQ points gained through that sham has been greatly reduced. The change also took care of the exploit guilds were using to expand their membership beyond 1000. They would run an alt as far as they could, kick them (keeping their CQ points) and invite a different alt (rinse and repeat)

[DWho]

are you joking?

 

the ninja invite and kicking was NOT solved or sorted AT ALL. instead you set a bot to ninja invite on monday so on the next day during the reset the members count as full members. The grace period is the fault of insecure GMs of those big guilds who have caused nothing but headaches and problems because of their insecurities.

 

BOTTING is and will always will be an issue, they could for example, just like with mails, make a cooldown system with guild invites, NOT a stupid grace period. This would prevent a bot from sending invites to 100 players a minute.

 

An the macro botting where you made 10+ mil conquest is thank god removed, again, play the game for conquest instead of crafting for conquest, this is ridiculous.

 

The thread is about how to bring crafting back into conquest not "I don't like Crafting" or "I love Crafting". If you have an idea how to do it then please add your idea. Repeatedly saying "Good Riddence to Crafting" is a personal bias not a solution. Macros and Botting are against the TOS and should have be dealt with with temporary and permanent bans of those employing them. Botting is not a crafting exclusive issue.

[AlacrityFitzhugh]

Balance is a lie, there is only falling down.

[DarkTergon]

are you joking?

 

the ninja invite and kicking was NOT solved or sorted AT ALL. instead you set a bot to ninja invite on monday so on the next day during the reset the members count as full members. .

 

It stopped the invite, and kick in the same week, even inviting them on monday, doesn't give them CQ for that week. They are there for next week, and if they boot them, they lose the CQ points. They don't need a bot for that.

 

As for botting itself, it can affect most of the game, not just crafting, or inviting. It's against the ToS, and if YOU have PROOF, instead of complaining here with wild speculation, send your proof to the dev/cm's

 

Lol, you're talking about one of the guilds that are still very much ninja-inviting, they just condense this to Sunday-Monday. This nonsense did nothing to fix it and you should see that. I have the screenshots to prove it.

 

if so, why haven't you put them up? And don't say ToS violations, as you can hide names , to avoid that. Or better yet, have you even bothered sending them in, for BW to investigate ?

Edited June 25, 2021 by DarkTergon

[Beoknez]

The thread is about how to bring crafting back into conquest not "I don't like Crafting" or "I love Crafting". If you have an idea how to do it then please add your idea. Repeatedly saying "Good Riddence to Crafting" is a personal bias not a solution. Macros and Botting are against the TOS and should have be dealt with with temporary and permanent bans of those employing them. Botting is not a crafting exclusive issue.

 

Bringing conquest into crafting is Your bias as well, do You naively expect that everyone would agree with that and those who dont should shut up? Botting is a crafting and ninja inviting issue.

[Beoknez]

It stopped the invite, and kick in the same week, even inviting them on monday, doesn't give them CQ for that week. They are there for next week, and if they boot them, they lose the CQ points. They don't need a bot for that.

 

As for botting itself, it can affect most of the game, not just crafting, or inviting. It's against the ToS, and if YOU have PROOF, instead of complaining here with wild speculation, send your proof to the dev/cm's

 

 

 

if so, why haven't you put them up? And don't say ToS violations, as you can hide names , to avoid that. Or better yet, have you even bothered sending them in, for BW to investigate ?

 

You must be either deluded or not aware what Youre talking about. NOTHING has been stopped with ninja invites and kicking. in fact the guild we all i assume know about has kicked in 1 day 1800 players in their main and side guilds, has sent 100 players per minute at once, we have logs from the past month to this point, and since youre badly uninformed, from the reset on tuesday, all members are considered ingame full members and conquest counts for them.

 

As of the "proof" ,the proof has been provided with how a certain guild was macro botting , in video format, how the bot is installed, how it manipulates conquest and how one player managed to do 30+ million conquest. However we provided 2 times on this forums names and actions made by players and we got a warning from the devs. Kindly complain to them, not to me, i say whatever i want.

[DarkTergon]

/snip.

 

Insulting me isn't helping your cause

the rest is in brackets, because you keep dragging this off topic.

 

 

If they invite them on Monday, how does their CQ count for that week? It doesn't start till reset, after the tuesday, and that will be for that week, not the first week they joined. Now if you can prove that it counts for the week they join, that would be an exploit/bug/hack, or whatever. If you are complaining that they join on the monday, then start earning Guild CQ from the tuesday after reset, that is normal, that's what happens to everyone.

 

So you have poof that they kicked 1800 players in ONE day? If that was true, and you sent it like you said you did, something would have been done about it.

 

 

The real issue is balancing crafting in CQ, having a crafting week like before would be a start.

Edited June 25, 2021 by DarkTergon

[DarkTergon]

Botting is a crafting and ninja inviting issue.

 

No, it's an all game issue, it can affect other areas too, not just crafting or inviting.

[DWho]

Bringing conquest into crafting is Your bias as well, do You naively expect that everyone would agree with that and those who dont should shut up? Botting is a crafting and ninja inviting issue.

 

No, what I expect is that if you have a criticism about what is presented in the opening post, you would address it in a constructive manner. For example, if you are against bringing back the infinite repeatable for Crafting Inventor, say so and why. Would bringing back infinitely repeatables for the more expensive crafts (Dark Project, War Supplies, Invasion Forces) qualm your fears since they require much more effort to be able to craft in the first place. Is the 250% bonus from Strongholds the issue? The Guild Perks?

 

So far your arguments have been "I don't like crafting and it shouldn't be part of conquest". What is a reasoned argument that it shouldn't be part of conquest. Is it that it threatens the dominance of certain guilds, it prevents your guild from winning, it is something you don't enjoy, it's not playing the game the way you think it should be played (I would argue it is more playing the game than some other activities since it requires you to get materials in some fashion whether that be by credits which are removed from the game if the mats are bought from vendors/missions, or gathered by playing the game - most mats require you to at least some of the time fight NPCs for them), etc.

 

My goal in this post was to propose a way to restore at least some of what was nerfed while still addressing the concerns of those that wanted it nerfed (note that there was a lot of agreement across the board to remove the multiple craft exploit - which was removed in my proposal)

 

Botting is Botting regardles of what it is used for. Should we get rid of warzones since there are some people running bots in it, how about GSF, or Rampages. Botting is punishable under the TOS and should be dealt with that way, not destroying the content someone is botting.

[ceryxp]

You must be either deluded or not aware what Youre talking about. NOTHING has been stopped with ninja invites and kicking. in fact the guild we all i assume know about has kicked in 1 day 1800 players in their main and side guilds, has sent 100 players per minute at once, we have logs from the past month to this point, and since youre badly uninformed, from the reset on tuesday, all members are considered ingame full members and conquest counts for them.

 

As of the "proof" ,the proof has been provided with how a certain guild was macro botting , in video format, how the bot is installed, how it manipulates conquest and how one player managed to do 30+ million conquest. However we provided 2 times on this forums names and actions made by players and we got a warning from the devs. Kindly complain to them, not to me, i say whatever i want.

 

You claim the the ninja invites and kicking continue and that DT does not understand the guild changes, but it is you who does not seem to understand. Here is the post with only the relevant bits.

New Character Grace Probation Period

When a new character has accepted an invite into a Guild, that character will begin a Grace Probation Period with the Guild. During this time, that new character can still earn their own Personal Conquest goals and rewards, but their Conquest efforts will not be calculated into the Guild’s Conquest efforts until the next Conquest event [i.e., the weekly Tuesday reset]. As such, new characters will not immediately appear in a Guild’s Conquest Leaderboards, and will not be eligible for the Guild’s Invasion Reward.

 

...

 

Character and Guild Separation

When a player is removed from a Guild by the Guild, their Conquest contributions will now be removed from that Guild as well. In the event the character leaves a Guild on their own accord, the points they contributed to a Guild’s Conquest will remain with the Guild for that Conquest.

 

When removing characters, Guild Leadership will now be provided with a notification informing them that removing the member will result in a loss of that member’s Conquest contributions. Again, it is important to note that this is per character, and not account.

 

So your claim is that they use a bot to invite on Sunday and Monday so that the new character's Conquest points will begin to count on Tuesday, which is the normal procedure, but then what? When do these kicks occur? On Wednesday? Thursday? Friday? Saturday? Sunday before the bot starts mass inviting? If the kicks occur at any point prior to the Tuesday reset then that guild just lost those points, which would invalidate the entire point of having those low level characters amassing Conquest points, and if they wait until after the Tuesday rest then those new people would receive their weekly rewards and the guild would not have enough member slots to do what you claim.

 

 

Yes, I am aware that does not work, but it should, and I absolutely will not call it a grace period. It is a probation period.

Edited June 25, 2021 by ceryxp

[SteveTheCynic]

Yes, I am aware that does not work, but it should, and I absolutely will not call it a grace period. It is a probation period.

If you're quoting someone else who calls it that, your readers will understand that *you* aren't calling it that.

[Beoknez]

No, it's an all game issue, it can affect other areas too, not just crafting or inviting.

 

no its an all game issue? Are you now accepting it as an issue with crafting and ninja invites or not? please make sense

[Beoknez]

You claim the the ninja invites and kicking continue and that DT does not understand the guild changes, but it is you who does not seem to understand. Here is the post with only the relevant bits.

 

 

So your claim is that they use a bot to invite on Sunday and Monday so that the new character's Conquest points will begin to count on Tuesday, which is the normal procedure, but then what? When do these kicks occur? On Wednesday? Thursday? Friday? Saturday? Sunday before the bot starts mass inviting? If the kicks occur at any point prior to the Tuesday reset then that guild just lost those points, which would invalidate the entire point of having those low level characters amassing Conquest points, and if they wait until after the Tuesday rest then those new people would receive their weekly rewards and the guild would not have enough member slots to do what you claim.

 

 

Yes, I am aware that does not work, but it should, and I absolutely will not call it a grace period. It is a probation period.

 

What on earth are you sending me right now, i know better than you how this grace period works, me and other ppl who have an issue are GMs themselves.

 

Yes, ithis guild kicks players before reset and sends ninja invites to 1000 players a minute. Dont believ me, make a new toon on a beginner player on Darth Malgus and get 3 times the same guild invite in under a minute.

 

they kick members also who dont do a certain amound of conquest in 1 day.

I want Your answer since you pour in quotes from th devs, why do You think the made the changes in the first place in the last big patch?

 

the ninja invite issue has NOT been solved, the guild has only adapted its bot to the new grace period and he problem still persists. And the craftbotting should also Never be brought back, daily rewards should be enough. And its interesting that none of You on the other side of the argument arent fighting for infinity missions that involve activity instead of crafting. Thats lazy and weak