Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[beetz]

So I guess I'll just keep posting here until something happens.

[Xcore]

So I guess I'll just keep posting here until something happens.

 

Yes, and if you can be bothered, uprate

[AlexRose]

I just dont understand the mindset off the people saying: there is nothing wrong with combat system, you are just hating. For the love of Yoda look at my forum join date. Do you really think I am hating this game?

The sad thing is that they do not realize they are close minded and intolerant. Intolerant of other peoples suggestions, ideas and perceptions of how this game should be and they are just not helping, anyone. If they cant or wont fix it, well, ok, I will enjoy other parts of the game and ignore the combat or just unsubscribe - but I will not ever say that combat delay is ok.

... and last but not least I am paying for this game as any other user that thinks he he has the right to criticize me about my views about combat system.

 

Get this straight: The ability delay is a fact.

[Vorlia]

I just wanted to get a handle on the issues that are discussed here as we moved on quite quickly from pure ability 'delay' to discussing several issues that all clump together to make the characters feel unresponsive.

 

 

1. Client to server synchronisation (I cannot think of a better description ) - I believe this is the issue that causes general delay in spells/abilities be it mounting then moving only to find your mount dissapear or coming to a stop and finding you cannot cast untill you have stood still for 0.5 of a sec etc.

 

2. Animation priority - Having to wait for previous animations to complete before you are allowed to cast your next ability, animations not always clipping and interfering with rotations. Also animations are different between mirror classes, and effect when 'instant' abilities actually land.

 

3. Abilities off the GCD failing - I don't know if this is a seperate issue but abilities like Riposte sometimes will refuse to activate despite the ability becoming avalible and the player having resources to use it, somtimes act's like they are on the GCD after all. May tie in with 1 & 2.

 

Is this esentially the basic reasons why characters feel unresponsive? or is there more to it.

 

As far as i can see different classes will be effected differently by all of the above for example healers might struggle more with 1 than dps, or a dps smuggler may notice number 2 more than anything else.

 

I must say that even though I am your average player with an average reaction time i have noticed all of the above and believe characters won't feel responsive untill they are all looked at and fixed.

 

I never post in game forums but feel this is such a make or break issue for this game that i just had to, it'll only become more of an issue once the game moves from leveling mode into endgame mode.

 

Great post. I'm also an average player with average skills, but have an extensive and long gaming history. I have noticed all of these issues too, and they bother me more every time I play (as I become even more aware of them).

 

This is more than being the most leet player, or expecting to destroy all content or opposing players I meet, I simply want my character to do what I tell it to when I tell it to.

 

All players are affected by this issue, whether they realize it or not. I would imagine if/when this gets fixed, people will get a "wow... it feels so much better" feeling.

[Vorlia]

Also, thanks to the original poster(s) for making this such a well documented issue.

 

It must be fixed.

[brevous]

I just wanted to get a handle on the issues that are discussed here as we moved on quite quickly from pure ability 'delay' to discussing several issues that all clump together to make the characters feel unresponsive.

 

 

1. Client to server synchronisation (I cannot think of a better description ) - I believe this is the issue that causes general delay in spells/abilities be it mounting then moving only to find your mount dissapear or coming to a stop and finding you cannot cast untill you have stood still for 0.5 of a sec etc.

 

2. Animation priority - Having to wait for previous animations to complete before you are allowed to cast your next ability, animations not always clipping and interfering with rotations. Also animations are different between mirror classes, and effect when 'instant' abilities actually land.

 

3. Abilities off the GCD failing - I don't know if this is a seperate issue but abilities like Riposte sometimes will refuse to activate despite the ability becoming avalible and the player having resources to use it, somtimes act's like they are on the GCD after all. May tie in with 1 & 2.

 

Is this esentially the basic reasons why characters feel unresponsive? or is there more to it.

 

As far as i can see different classes will be effected differently by all of the above for example healers might struggle more with 1 than dps, or a dps smuggler may notice number 2 more than anything else.

 

I must say that even though I am your average player with an average reaction time i have noticed all of the above and believe characters won't feel responsive untill they are all looked at and fixed.

 

I never post in game forums but feel this is such a make or break issue for this game that i just had to, it'll only become more of an issue once the game moves from leveling mode into endgame mode.

 

Very good post and summation. Thanks for your hard work and dedication on this subject.

[salvadorellama]

You couldn't be more mistaken...

 

Then explain.

 

BW says they are investigating. You made your points very clear.

 

What else is there to discuss? You made your point (clearly, as I said), and you got a BW response. 99% of people with issues don't even get that.

 

They wouldn't waste man hours investigating the problem if they didn't believe there was a probelm.

 

Just relax. I'm sure they'll figure out a way to make it better if they determine that the issue needs to be made better. For all intents, I agree with you on the responsiveness, but whipping a horse to make it go faster just hurts the horse and slows it down in the long run.

[origosis]

I am not sarcastic when I say that I'm happy you can live with it. However, I would like you to read my overview of the entire issue/thread (link in OP) because to you I'd address: Even if you "can live with it", DON'T! Because the only way to make the Genre as a whole, developers and even players understand this constant issue (across so many MMOs) is to "raise" your demand of quality.

 

Also, I should mention that the problem itself is exasperated the higher end you get in both PvE and PvP. To a casual player, it may not even be noticeable -- To a Professional Gamer with a .4-5 reaction time average, well its unplayable completely.

 

I will go read your post in a few minutes actually, but before I do i will supply this response.

 

I just wanted to make it clear I do want this fixed. I want it fixed quickly. I am not overly worried about it cause I think despite these threads and big complaints.. even on Reddit, this is being worked on as quickly as possible.

 

Maybe extra push from us will get it done faster, but I don't think so.

 

I, like many people, have worked in Customer service for years (OMG 15 years... wow.. never counted it before.) Anyways. And that once we know an issue is a priority we get on top of it. And really more complaining doe snot actually speed the issue up.. infact it can slow the fix down cause we need to waste time dealing with the customer, or supplying a quick fix while we work on the real fix.

 

I think I might just have a bit more faith that BW is already working at 100% on this issue.

 

Now to counter myself I will say this.

When i see something broken and it does affect me directly.. I can't help but focus on it.. and even though I could work around it or ignore it.. I can't help but focus all my attention it.

 

So even though I see this as a minor issue. i do understand the feeling of needing/wanting something fixed ASAP.

[MaxymumForce]

I believe when grabbing aggro from mobs before the ability you pressed even cooks off is a direct effect of exactly what is happening in pvp and the disconnect with your toon.

 

Press button expect action that you instigated to happen. No it doesn't your animation kicks in. Yet you aggro before said action is even applied.

 

This in turn causes you to repress the button or you have already moved on to another action and in doing so you have cancelled out everything or have caused change in the way the game sees the combat happening .

 

Aggro is happening at inception of action on screen, not on the actual action taking affect. I.e. damage, stun,etc... Which is the game controlling combat to have visual aesthetics , not the game responding to actual, realtime game play.

 

Here's the rub, the faulty coding . You are giving the game an action to do based off of what you want your toon to do in the here and now. The game is taking that action coupling with a set response and creating a visually stimulating scene. However you LOSE CONTROL of your toon for those micro seconds because the game is required to melt the visual action together on screen.

 

When its just you and a few mobs you can work through it. When your in a group it multiplies it , when your in a pvp zone holy crap its exponential.

 

Is that about right ?

[Typeslice]

Hello,

 

I am in no way shy to say that, the reason Warhammer Online, EQs, Rift, SWG etc. etc. could never "ever" get to anything near WoW subscriptions is the Character Responsiveness[/color][/u]. All these games failed for many reasons...

 

Stopped reading after that statement. EQ1 did not fail...

[AlexRose]

Then explain.

 

BW says they are investigating. You made your points very clear.

 

What else is there to discuss? You made your point (clearly, as I said), and you got a BW response. 99% of people with issues don't even get that.

 

They wouldn't waste man hours investigating the problem if they didn't believe there was a probelm.

 

Just relax. I'm sure they'll figure out a way to make it better if they determine that the issue needs to be made better. For all intents, I agree with you on the responsiveness, but whipping a horse to make it go faster just hurts the horse and slows it down in the long run.

 

Yes, but will they respond in the manner: We will be investigating this issue and plan to fix it in eg. 6 months or they will just investigate the issue for one year and keep us subscribed meanwhile. You can guess which answer is more profitable.

I for one will be watching this thread (or similar threads) very closely and if I see a declined interest in fixing the ability delay I will make a decision about my subscription.

The game is good mnd you, I like the stories, voice over and lot of thing but without a decent pvp hmm ...

Edited December 30, 2011 by AlexRose

[Bakarn]

There appears to be some confusion about when abilities do damage. Classifying those abilities may make it clear. For the Jedi Guardian, here is how they break down.

 

Abilities That Cause Effect Instantly Upon Key Press

 

Strike

Slash

Cyclone Slash

Overhead Slash

Sundering Strike

Force Push

Force Stasis

Master Strike (Over 3s)

 

 

Abilities Which Have Slightly Delayed Effects

 

Blade Storm (by about 0.3-0.4s). Control ability is delayed until effect hits.

 

 

Abilities Which Delay Their Effect Until Animation Completion

 

Force Sweep

 

 

The problem is with the abilities in this latter category. It also explains why I, as a Jedi Guardian, have almost never come across this problem. More caster orientated classes likely will. Fortunately it's therefore a relatively simple fix. Key to this is the apparent control effect. Change most abilities to render an instant effect upon completion of the cast timer.

 

This is pretty important. It also has NO effect on interrupts OR your GCD. This effect is illusory outside of cast time abilities.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Bakarn

[Isende]

greets, reposting something i posted in thread #2, just because we need folk to understand that it's not about brand comparisons, it's about customer/gamer satisfaction and retention.

 

also, this allows me to apply a new rating

____________________________________

i wanted to make a couple of clear points, so that hopefully people will come back, with understanding, to the original plea xcore began with.

 

point the first: regardless of the comparisons to blizz's wow, this is NOT a cry for swtor to emulate wow, EXCEPT IN COMBAT FLOW. the reason for this, as relates to pvp, has been amply described and documented; let me add another point, and that's the point of view of an rper. for me to truly enjoy my gameplay, i MUST truly enjoy my character. this starts at the character creation tab (i've been known to roll the same toon a dozen times to get her "just right"), and extends into her story, her interaction with others ingame, AND her combat/healing. if ANY part of this is "icky," then the overall totality of the experience is flawed for me. i won't go back to wow simply because i'm too disgusted with what they did to a game i loved -- but hey, that's not the only option out there. when i consider my healing priest, and then my healing consular -- well, for casting in combat, the priest wins, hands down. forget everything else -- my ability to "feel" my character lives as much in her ability to keep people alive as it does in her ability to interact with others. key point here folks -- THIS IS AS IMPORTANT AS EVERY OTHER GREAT THING YOU DID IN THE GAME, AND IF IT'S NOT FIXED, IT WILL COST YOU MANY MANY SUBSCRIBERS. so forget and drop the vitriol that we just want a wow clone -- that ain't it. what we want is to be able to immerse ourselves in the brilliant potential that does exist with this game.

 

point the second: there IS a problem with ability casts and delay timers/animation. as digitalpossum indicated on page 149 of the second (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=95738&page=149), he and i checked this out with four different class combos (smuggler, warrior, consular/balance and consular/seer). we tested this across three computers, one of which has its specs spelled out on page 150. it's not only a huge motherbeast of a machine, it's a bloody hawt gaming computer. we were able to successfully recreate the ability delay issue on each class, on each computer; we were not able to make the delay NOT occur on his brand new shiny toy.

 

point the third: i've said this before because i feel it SO strongly. customer service is a big deal. responsiveness to your customer's requests is a big deal. sadly, xcore is correct -- this second thread, created from the first one which capped 1k responses, is well on its way to also being 1k responses, and it wasn't until (fuzzy logic applies here, due to the page 123/140 discrepency) page 123 of THIS second posting that the devs made any statement at all. when you consider that this is a problem that has existed throughout beta testing, and was steadfastly NOT addressed, you begin to see some of the customer service angst, on the part of the player community. i know, devs, you guys are so happy with what you built. i get that, i understand that -- yes, the potential ABSOLUTELY exists.

 

however.

 

that potential will never be realized if #1 you don't address your customers' issues in a more timely manner (nope, not saying fix it naow, saying acknowledge and address it) and if #2 you don't listen to the very people you asked to test your product.

 

i am sorry, bioware and ea -- your customers may very well be blown away with the story features, or even just the newness and fun-factor in being in STAR WARS. but we're still gamers. we still play the game with certain expectations. and those expectations ABSOLUTELY include seamless cast/ability flow, both for pvp, and for pure immersion reasons.

 

i honestly hope you do find a way to address and resolve this issue. i truly fear something new and possibly wonderful may be lost if you don't.

 

EDIT: changed page number to reflect status of new thread

Edited December 30, 2011 by Isende

[CogentVohr]

I recently introduced a friend to the game. His first comment was: "Why do spells feel so laggy? This game reminds me of Warhammer."

[Xcore]

Stopped reading after that statement. EQ1 did not fail...

 

Ok, if you stopped reading there, picking on details such as that... well sir, your loss... please remain blissful in your ignorance.

[Khoranth]

So I guess I'll just keep posting here until something happens.

 

Yeah, or until Diablo 3 is released.

 

They really messed up releasing the game in such a poor state.

 

Seriously, If i want to hear a story, I will watch a movie. Voice overs are nice and everything, nothing against them, but what the heck? you cannot release a game with such unresponsive controls and think people won't mind because of voice overs.

 

Everyone i know is treating this like a single player game, that they plan to quit eventually after they get through enough class stories. I do not know anyone who is serious about end game PVE or PVP; because of the terrible clunky unresponsive combat.

 

I don't see how many will find competitive, challenging content, PVE or PVP, fun with slow laggy clunky combat controls.

[Xcore]

I will go read your post in a few minutes actually, but before I do i will supply this response.

 

I just wanted to make it clear I do want this fixed. I want it fixed quickly. I am not overly worried about it cause I think despite these threads and big complaints.. even on Reddit, this is being worked on as quickly as possible.

 

Maybe extra push from us will get it done faster, but I don't think so.

 

I, like many people, have worked in Customer service for years (OMG 15 years... wow.. never counted it before.) Anyways. And that once we know an issue is a priority we get on top of it. And really more complaining doe snot actually speed the issue up.. infact it can slow the fix down cause we need to waste time dealing with the customer, or supplying a quick fix while we work on the real fix.

 

This discussion needs to continue, this emphasis to the problem and issue needs to continue. The analysis of the understanding of this "Unresponsive/Uncomfortable Feeling" needs to continue. It is the core of why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft and why nothing can or will touch it (except Titan -- Blizzard Product).

 

I don't disagree with your post entirely but I need to drive home the fact that this is MORE than just "fix it now", it goes beyond that. To add, it is not a simple problem even to determine, let alone fix...

 

So the discussion, the pressure the evolution needs to continue..

[Isende]

The only one type of player that may be able to argue against it is an RPer. Fine, I sympathize with that but he picked the wrong game (for himself sadly) when he chose a "Combat Based MMO" -- SWG, one could argue that Gameplay Responsiveness may not necessarily be the most important aspect... Though I would still argue it is...

 

<ahem> reminds xcore of her post on the second portion of this thread, from an rper's perspective ... which is reposted above, this page.

 

*hugs*

Edited December 30, 2011 by Isende

[salvadorellama]

Yes, but will they respond in the manner: We will be investigating this issue and plan to fix it in eg. 6 months or they will just investigate the issue for one year and keep us subscribed meanwhile. You can guess which answer is more profitable.

I for one will be watching this thread (or similar threads) very closely and if I see a declined interest in fixing the ability delay I will make a decision about my subscription.

The game is good mnd you, I like the stories, voice over and lot of thing but without a decent pvp hmm ...

 

I would expect that they would work on it as anyone with a job works on it. It's assigned a value according to how important they will deem the problem to be (i.e. they may determine that this other issue is more importat) and allocate resources in a manner like that.

 

Programming isn't easy. With millions of lines of code, it can take time to figure out exactly what's happening. Be patient and trust that this company WANTS to continue recieving over 15 mlllion dollars a month (and growing) from subscription fees.

[Xcore]

Then explain.

 

BW says they are investigating. You made your points very clear.

 

What else is there to discuss? You made your point (clearly, as I said), and you got a BW response. 99% of people with issues don't even get that.

 

They wouldn't waste man hours investigating the problem if they didn't believe there was a probelm.

 

Just relax. I'm sure they'll figure out a way to make it better if they determine that the issue needs to be made better. For all intents, I agree with you on the responsiveness, but whipping a horse to make it go faster just hurts the horse and slows it down in the long run.

 

This discussion needs to continue, this emphasis to the problem and issue needs to continue. The analysis of the understanding of this "Unresponsive/Uncomfortable Feeling" needs to continue. It is the core of why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft and why nothing can or will touch it (except Titan -- Blizzard Product).

 

When a Bioware Developer says: "Working on it, thanks" that does NOT mean: "Ok guys, we're done here! lets move on... they're on it"...

 

If we thought like that in the first place, this would never have been raised, this would never have been fixed and SW:TOR will never have become the first game in the Western Market to reach 20 million subscribers in the year 2014/15...

[gangbot]

 

This is the problem i am getting with my jedi guardian. It happens like this on majority of my abilities, most annoying is when i cant kick something in time, or press defensive cooldowns in PVP... i press it 100 times for them to go off.

[Randkin]

Stopped reading after that statement. EQ1 did not fail...

 

I tried EQ1 a few years ago, to see what it was like. The newbie training area before you EVER even get out into the actual world with everyone:

1) Had graphical bugs. 2) Had quests I could not complete because the NPCs would not properly respond to me in acknowledgment of having done everything the quest required. 3) Had more lag than the first city with other players running around in had by a noticeable degree.

 

And I stopped at that point. Because if the place where people are being SHOWCASED the game has uncompleteable quests and graphic issues, what is the REST of the game going to be like?

 

Accepting glaring flaws does not make them go away or make them anything but glaring flaws, mate. That is, by definition, a failure. Then again, it's Sony. I'm rather confident at this point they are where games go to die.

[mastercosby]

I just wanted to get a handle on the issues that are discussed here as we moved on quite quickly from pure ability 'delay' to discussing several issues that all clump together to make the characters feel unresponsive.

 

 

1. Client to server synchronisation (I cannot think of a better description ) - I believe this is the issue that causes general delay in spells/abilities be it mounting then moving only to find your mount dissapear or coming to a stop and finding you cannot cast untill you have stood still for 0.5 of a sec etc.

 

2. Animation priority - Having to wait for previous animations to complete before you are allowed to cast your next ability, animations not always clipping and interfering with rotations. Also animations are different between mirror classes, and effect when 'instant' abilities actually land.

 

3. Abilities off the GCD failing - I don't know if this is a seperate issue but abilities like Riposte sometimes will refuse to activate despite the ability becoming avalible and the player having resources to use it, somtimes act's like they are on the GCD after all. May tie in with 1 & 2.

 

Is this esentially the basic reasons why characters feel unresponsive? or is there more to it.

 

As far as i can see different classes will be effected differently by all of the above for example healers might struggle more with 1 than dps, or a dps smuggler may notice number 2 more than anything else.

 

I must say that even though I am your average player with an average reaction time i have noticed all of the above and believe characters won't feel responsive untill they are all looked at and fixed.

 

I never post in game forums but feel this is such a make or break issue for this game that i just had to, it'll only become more of an issue once the game moves from leveling mode into endgame mode.

 

I think you pretty much covered everything that causes the unresponsive feel in this post. I think the biggest factor though is 1. the communication between client and server, which is why I think the problem is a lot more noticeable in PVP. However I believe the other 2 are main factors that cause this poor synchronization between client and server.

 

I think difference between the communication system here and in WoW is that in WoW, if the player is able to execute an ability from their perspective, the ability executes immediately regardless of whether the status on the server thinks it can or can't. Basically, anything that can be done from the client side overrides what the server thinks.

 

But here, if you try to execute an ability that appears to be executable from your perspective, it has to check with the server first to see if you actually can execute that ability at that moment you try to use it. I think this is what causes the "spazzing" animations for some people because from the client side, you start to execute an ability but the server says no you can't do that yet, so you keep spamming the ability and it sort of "half" executes on your screen until the server says "ok you can do that now".

 

I also realized that you can execute abilities that appear to be on global cooldown because of these conformations with the server, because on your screen your ability may still be on global cooldown, but the server says it's not, so on my screen I can have 2 abilities animate back to back on the same global cooldown. (I've tested this multiple times)

 

Basically, I think they would be making a huge step forward if the can overhaul the system to where if an ability is highlighted as executable from the clients side, then it needs to execute immediately when the players try to do it, then it tells the server the you executed that ability and thus the server sends out that the ability executed to everyone else.

 

Also an important note is that the server should confirm FIRST that the ability can be executed before the player tires to use it. For example, if you appear in range for an ranged ability on your screen but you are not in range on the server, the ability should be grayed out on your screen as not usable, instead of the current system where you can attempt to use abilities that appear executable from the player's side but really are not from the server's perspective.

 

In closing, this post went a little longer than I planned, but I wanted to be thorough enough in my explanations so that people could understand what I'm trying to say. I'd like to know if anyone else agrees or disagrees with my slightly more technical view of the issue at hand.

[Tebbo]

so this finally happened to me once.

 

i was mashing just to see, and it occured.

 

so incase anyone reading is not sure, stop mashing.

long term this needs a solution asap anyway. but short term so as not to go insane; stop mashing the buttons.

[Khoranth]

I would expect that they would work on it as anyone with a job works on it. It's assigned a value according to how important they will deem the problem to be (i.e. they may determine that this other issue is more importat) and allocate resources in a manner like that.

 

Programming isn't easy. With millions of lines of code, it can take time to figure out exactly what's happening. Be patient and trust that this company WANTS to continue recieving over 15 mlllion dollars a month (and growing) from subscription fees.

 

Well they knew about the problem in beta and chose to ignore it and release the game anyways, even after beta testers constantly begged them to fix the unresponsive combat before release.

 

So if they ignore the problem in beta, how important do you think it is to them? I mean why would having responsive controls in a video game BEFORE IT IS RELEASED be important? who would have guessed?