Hugged Wookies from last year don't count for new Hug 1500 Wookies achievement?

[Citrienne]

Hi everyone, this is working as intended. We have passed along your feedback regarding this Achievement.

 

(I apologize ahead of time that this post is so long despite being about a "somewhat" trivial topic)

 

I'm going to attempt to summarize the issues regarding the wookiee-hugging achievements here and why they're a problem, so both the devs and the players who haven't looked into it at all can understand from just one post what the problem is, why it's a problem, and what should be done.

 

 

What's going on?

 

This year, a fifth tier was added to the wookiee-hugging tier of achievements under Achievements > Events > General > Life Day > (bottom row) called "Hugs For All". This achievement is for hugging x/1500 wookiees during the Life Day event. However a number of things were handled badly related to this:

• Tiered achievements not stacking - If you completed some number of wookiee hugs last year, that progress should have applied to the new tier as well, like tiered-achievements work everywhere else in the game, but did not.
  
• Incomplete Achievements having their Progress wiped -- If you started, but didn't complete, any subset of the wookiee-hugging achievements last year, then all your progress on those achievements was reset to 0, without your consent, despite doing the work.
  
• Number of wookiee-hugs required to complete the entire tier of achievements now varies between players -- Lucky people who started this year only have to complete 1500 hugs to get the entire tier of achievements, including the new tier. Unlucky players who started last year will have to complete whatever they completed last year plus another 1500 this year, up to 2500 hugs if you completed the Wookiee Hugging Champion achievement last year (which is [1500*1.667~=2500] 66% more hugs for an already grindy achievement than players just starting out this year).
  

 

 

Why is this a problem?

 

What happened with this is a violation of the unspoken contract between the devs and players on how achievements work. There's a reason why the old NiM Eternity Vault/Karagga's Palace achievements (etc) were moved to "Feats of Strength" (aka archived) instead of just removing them from the achievements list completely. People exerted effort to do something and want recognition for it, even if it's no longer a valid mode of gameplay.

 

So let's talk about how this unspoken contract between the devs and players regarding how achievements work was violated:

• Unrequested achievement progress reset by devs -- There should never be a time when a player's legitimate progress on an achievement is reset or cleared or even touched at all without the player first requesting it though CS and CS *only then* approving it if the player's issue with it is deemed valid. A player's legitimate effort toward something should be counted, always. (Note: "legitimate". This does not apply exploiting or punishment for exploiting).
  
• Tiered achievements not stacking -- Let's look at an example. Achievements > Location > Alderaan > Player vs. Player > the bottom row. Those achievements are for killing other players on that planet, and are tiered: x/10, x/50, x/100, x/1000. When you kill one player on Alderaan, each tier increases its completion/progress by +1 (for an overall 1/10, 1/50, 1/100, 1/1000 on your first kill). All other tiered achievements in the game work this same way, so there is an expectation that they will continue working this way in the future.
  
• Different players having to do more work than others to complete the same achievement -- by any reasonable measure, this is unfair, and is self-explanatory.
  

 

I don't think Jackie's statement of this working as intended is untrue. I think that the devs probably did intend for it to work like this. That said, I do think they went off to add some achievements and did not really consider the ramifications of what implementing an achievement in this manner meant to how players expect achievements to be completed in this game.

 

Boss-person probably said:

We need to add something new for Life Day but we blew the bulk of our remaining 2020 dev budget on the Feast of Prosperity. What can we get done for Life Day with X manhours of effort?

To which someone on the dev team replied:

Let's just add some new achievements that behave like other achievements we already have in the game. The implementation effort will be very minimal since we can just reuse what we did from before.

Boss-person:

Okay, that sounds good. Get it done.

Dev team:

*heads off and returns the next day with all sorts of shower-ideas and implements them however they feel like without thinking about it too much*

 

Please see the disclaimer at the end.

 

 

What should be done?

 

The devs need to recognize that they made a mistake and perform an out-of-cycle maintenance which adds original progress on wookiee-hugging from last year to the current progress for every achievement in this tier of achievements, including the new one. This old progress value on hugs for every account should be recoverable since we just went through 11 months where no one was allowed to make any progress on it (unless they don't ever backup the live game data, and/or don't store it for at least a little while, which if so, yikes).

 

 

What should have been done?

 

The devs worked hard on the Feast of Prosperity, so I don't think anyone would've blinked an eye if Life Day launched without any new content/achievements/etc. This is probably the way it should've happened. New things on the Cartel Market and at the Life Day vendor are perfectly acceptable ways of adding content for the Life Day event when you weren't given a budget specifically for significantly reworking or adding to the event itself.

 

 

Going forward

 

In general, the devs need to realize a few things:

 

 

• You don't need to add something "new" (dev-wise) for every event every year in order for the player-base to be satisfied. If no achievement had been added to the wookiee-hugging tier, this whole kerfuffle would've been avoided completely. It is generally better to just not add anything than to do 10 minutes of work and present that as having done something. The player-base will be able to sniff out this minimum-level-of-effort easily.
  
• Events and their associated missions and achievements should promote fun gameplay, not boring grindy nonsense. I would also argue that they should not take people out of group content for too long in order to grind them. This is going to negatively impact PvP, GSF, Uprising, Flashpoint, and Ops queues as people struggle to meet this unreasonable number of hugs during a time when they are off work and should instead be focusing on doing the things they actually enjoy in the game.
  

 

There are ways to add just achievements to an event to help promote group-content and good spirit without falling into the trap of equating grinding with accomplishing something:

• Don't make the requirements too onerous -- e.g., 1000 hugs is probably too much for the top-tier amount. keep this number low enough that a casual player can get it done if they have a few days off around xmas while also doing the things they want to be doing in the game.
  
• Optionally force the spreading out of tasks to complete the achievement -- ex: you can only do the task 1/day on your legacy, which will limit the amount of time people are forced to be doing grindy achievement-related content instead of the content they really want to be doing. Be careful to ensure this can be completed in less than half the time-frame given though, if you're gonna go this route.
  
• Make the tasks needed to complete the achievement fun/funny
  
• Make the tasks needed to complete the achievement promote camaraderie if possible
  
• Make the tasks needed to complete the achievement promote group gameplay if possible
  
• Don't tie every achievement to hard rewards (titles, decos, coins, etc). Especially if you don't want to be forcing people into doing these modes of gameplay, whatever they may be.
  
• Make the titles earned from these achievements be good titles to have, not lame ones
  

 

 

 

Suggestions

 

 

Some examples of achievements related to the above list:

• x/25 enemy players snowballed in a PvP match (only counts if you put a novel debuff on them or replace someone else's debuff, not your own)
  
• >>> have the snowball buff received from enemy players provide a tiny buff, like +5% movement speed or something (only during Life Day)
  
• x/25 unique friendly players hugged in a PvP match (in spawn or out of combat or whatever -- reuse the wookiee-hugging animation)
  
• x/25 enemy players snowballed in a GSF match (add a 5th item to the quick bar that hits the target under your crosshairs with a snowball)
  
• >>> have the snowball buff received from enemy players provide a tiny buff, like 1% engine speed (only during Life Day)
  
• x/10 unique raid bosses (any difficulty) snowballed while in combat with the boss
  
• x/20 unique flashpoint bosses (any difficulty) snowballed while in combat with the boss
  
• x/10 unique player strongholds visited as part of a 4-person group (SHs that are not any of yours in the group) and everyone use the caroling emote together (purchased from life day vendor for a small amount of parcels)
  
• Gain a "Free Hugs" legacy title from hugging achievements
  

 

Going further, here's some Cartel Market or snow-covered parcel item suggestions (disclaimer: they are very xmas-oriented, sorry):

• release a new set of silly weapons: different patterns of wrapping-paper tubes for lightsabers, snow shovels for dualsabers, snowball- or ornament-shooting assault cannons, blaster pistols, blaster rifles, sniper rifles, and bowcasters that make funny sounds when they shoot.
  
• add a snowblower toy that does something silly
  
• add a toy called "down under life day" that is your character in a bikini w/sunglasses sipping a fruity drink on a beach chair under an umbrella with sand under you and wave/ocean sounds (disclaimer: i'm from the US)
  
• add a speeder that actually looks like a snowmobile
  
• add a speeder that looks like a snowplow
  
• add a GSF thing that shows you shooting snowballs and presents (aesthetically) instead of lasers and missiles
  
• add a dyeable ear-muffs headpiece already please (disclaimer: I have been wanting this for YEARS)
  
• add a set of gear that is a person covered in nothing but strand-lights
  

 

 

 

Disclaimer

 

I'm not trying to be insulting or anything here. I know how this stuff goes. I work as a software developer on a project that is very similar to something like this in many ways even though it is not specifically a commercial MMO. I understand how managers get task lists with their budgets, and that they sometimes encourage their developers to complete their assigned tasks in the quickest, sometimes dirtiest way possible so they can get it done at all (if low on funds/time), or say it's done early and under-budget (to appear amazing to the bean counters).

 

I realize how sometimes things that are discussed in a meeting and then implemented by developers turn out wildly different when unleashed upon users, who sometimes do the craziest, most confounding things. I certainly don't envy the task of the devs here trying to get stuff in there for the players and then having it all go sideways in the most unexpected manner possible.

 

But I do think the devs should own up to it when they mess something up. No one's perfect, and I seriously doubt anyone expects the devs to be. The best way to handle these sorts of things is to own it and then make it right. Please make it right. (I'll still grind it anyway, sigh)

 

[kalelrojin]

 

Use of that term in a derogatory sense or insulting manner is not acceptable regardless if it is used against a person. I am asking that it not be used here in this space. And again, I ask that posts in this thread remain on topic.

 

 

Thank you JackieKo! Love your work! I appreciate you! I already had previous chevo and am already 863/1500 in the new one and I love the new chevo that doesn’t take into account previous activity! Its the best! For next year I recommend a 2000 wookie hug chevo that doesn’t take into account previous progress!

Edited December 19, 2020 by CommunityDroidEU

[Everrgreen]

 

Use of that term in a derogatory sense or insulting manner is not acceptable regardless if it is used against a person. I am asking that it not be used here in this space. And again, I ask that posts in this thread remain on topic.

 

^

Thank you for stepping in on this one.

[splacevica]

I don't want to quote "Citrienne" here because the post is huge but it's completely on target. Thank you Citrienne for making an effort on the count of other players and devoting some time to really touch the epicenter of the subject.

 

I am still hoping that this was an honest mistake on the developer's part, or maybe it was just overlooked somehow? But since days go by and I see here people posting CS responses that justify the current position of the renewed title/hugs, it seems that nothing will be done about it?

 

I personally grind the 1000 Huggies last year, and it was one rather painful experience. Since I am an achievement hunter, this kind of change (being intentional or accidental) is just disastrous to me!

 

I applaud the players like "kalelrojin" here, being sarcastic or not, with his continuous grind again of 800/something/1500 again... "hat down" for your effort friend if it is a true one I just don't have that amount of time and dedication anymore, real life has stepped in the way. And grinding the same thing again, and again, and again, will really push me away from the things I really like to play in this game, for a few hours a day that I have in stored for SWTOR and my gaming pleasure.

 

Good post there "Citrienne" once again, thanks for the effort and time, I just hope someone who has the power to change these things will read it? Because maybe, just maybe, they will start thinking from our perspective as a dedicate/veteran players of this beautiful game

[DarkTergon]

Thank you JackieKo! Love your work! I appreciate you! please tell these haters to stop acting like <derogatory term.>. I already had previous chevo and am already 863/1500 in the new one and I love the new chevo that doesn’t take into account previous activity! Its the best! For next year I recommend a 2000 wookie hug chevo that doesn’t take into account previous progress!

 

you congratulate her on stepping on a derogatory term, and then go use one yourself to insult players who don't have the time to grind out another waste of achievement, that they did most of last year. Some people in this game actually have a life, and can't waste it on things we've already done, some people like to play the actual game, instead of going over the same old garbage they've already done, some people like doing content, instead of getting dragged away, because the achievements they've already received are made null and void. If you don't understand that....

 

/snip

Good post there "Citrienne" once again, thanks for the effort and time, I just hope someone who has the power to change these things will read it? Because maybe, just maybe, they will start thinking from our perspective as a dedicate/veteran players of this beautiful game

 

+100%

Edited December 19, 2020 by DarkTergon

[Zechalakazam]

I got a feeling this might be a social experiment of some sort to see how people react! Well, yes Bioware, you are right, there are people addicted to completing stuff and even though they come here and complain, they will still do it and move on. But mark my words, there comes a time when even these people will get fed up!

 

I’m one of those people, complaining yet still completed that cheevo BUT if they doing this again next year I’m just not gonna do this cheevo at all.

[hillerbees]

Adding my voice to the concern. If completing this year's achievement also completes last years, I'm going to wait until we have to hug 2000 wookies and just do it once.

 

Its a royal pain and not getting a definative reply is by default eating into the limited time available to complete the achievement.

 

Lets be honest here - if you have hugged a 1000 damned wookies last year it should count towards the total this year. The idea that individuals spend their gaming period over the holidays hugging that many wookies to the exculsion of alternative things to do in this game or another is derisory.

 

You'd have more fun playing a bugged out Cyberpunk 2077 on an Xbox than repeat a tedious, repetitive exercise that is only likely to be replicated by an even worse one on the 10th anniversary.

[Kirameki]

I can only guess the event for next year. Hug 5000 wookiees but you have to start all over again...

[DeannaVoyager]

I got a feeling this might be a social experiment of some sort to see how people react! Well, yes Bioware, you are right, there are people addicted to completing stuff and even though they come here and complain, they will still do it and move on. But mark my words, there comes a time when even these people will get fed up!

 

I'm a cheevo hunter but I'm fed up. I will do the 500 new, but I'm not starting over, while others will have to do 1000 less. If they don't fix it and I will miss the cheevo, I couldn't care less, I'm done. I'm not participating in events that are clearly unfair, and would only make me hate the game.

 

I honestly don't understand the thought process behind the decision to add this and claim it's intentional. Several people have said they have better things to do on holidays, than this. Several people have said they would rather play actual content, but because this a once a year event, they want cheevos, this is all they get to do.

 

I don't mind the snowball & parcel cheevo. We can do that while we play other content, it's not unreasonable, and everyone is on equal ground. Also the parcels are handy if you want to buy something from the Life Day vendor. But hugging 1500 wookiees MORE while I could actually enjoy playing the game? Pass.

Edited December 19, 2020 by DeannaVoyager

[DarkTergon]

 

I don't mind the snowball & parcel cheevo. We can do that while we play other content, it's not unreasonable, and everyone is on equal ground. Also the parcels are handy if you want to buy something from the Life Day vendor. But hugging 1500 wookiees MORE while I could actually enjoy playing the game? Pass.

 

Agree 100%, this is one achievement I'm bypassing, I don't mind the snowballs, I blast them out as I play actual content.

[TyrFoge]

I just wish thee legacy title for this achievement made sense. The title is "Hug Everlasting" which makes no sense to put on a character. It should read something like "Hugger" "Hugging" "A Hug" something like that...

[hillerbees]

I just wish thee legacy title for this achievement made sense. The title is "Hug Everlasting" which makes no sense to put on a character. It should read something like "Hugger" "Hugging" "A Hug" something like that...

 

Or "Watching Paint Dry" or "Has No Life" - something reflective of the achievement behind the title.

[khamseen_air]

Hi everyone, this is working as intended. We have passed along your feedback regarding this Achievement.

 

This is an absolutely ridiculous decision. I really hope you will change this, and before the event ends.

People starting this year only need to do 1500 total to get all achievements, those of us who completed the 1000 last year now need to do a total of 2500 to get all achievements. That's just stupid and insulting to those of us who completed it last year.

Edited December 19, 2020 by khamseen_air

[GuigeekRhadamant]

you congratulate her on stepping on a derogatory term, and then go use one yourself to insult players who don't have the time to grind out another waste of achievement, that they did most of last year. Some people in this game actually have a life, and can't waste it on things we've already done, some people like to play the actual game, instead of going over the same old garbage they've already done, some people like doing content, instead of getting dragged away, because the achievements they've already received are made null and void. If you don't understand that....

 

I'm pretty sure it was sarcasm though

Edited December 19, 2020 by GuigeekRhadamant

[demotivator]

So what's the plan for next year? 2,000 hugs and we have to start from 0 again?

[Sattee]

Next it'll be infect 2,000 players. We don't need new achievements for events that have been around for a bit. Forcing people to do an event is not using a carrot, you're using a stick (which ironically is completely opposite of what "Life Day" is about) . I can't speak for everyone, but I like to dip into the older events here and there, they can be fun, especially when people complain about getting hit with snowballs. But when you force a grind like this, yeah, most peeps aren't going to be happy.

 

 

 

Also, Why can't I give the parcels away anymore, not the Life Day spirit

Edited December 19, 2020 by Sattee

[Darittha]

I can't speak for everyone, but I like to dip into the older events here and there, they can be fun, especially when people complain about getting hit with snowballs. Life Day spirit

 

each time older events are brought up, i am reminded of the original Rakghoul Pandemic one-time event that was across all of Tatooine. I still remember tracking ship parts all over the desert to unlock my Crimson Rakling it wasnt annoying or hard but actually interesting and felt soo very rewarding - these day we just kill tunnel Lurker and its done, fun right? Keep Life Day each year if u must, but dont give us annoying new achievements to go with it. If u want something new, bring back original Rakghoul Pandemic - that would feel new to everyone including me since it was ingame only once for a week or two(?) i dont even remember how long it was atm and that was back in 2012-13 also not sure exactly.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Darittha

[Opiklo]

me as a wookie hugging champion from last year... i am pissed really pissed...

i cant even hug 10 wookies these days without really getting angry while doing it.

nice game design to rob me of my 1000 already hugged wookies...

i am going to do 500 and then i expect my achivement for 1500 as i have hugged 1500 wookies and i can prove it.

 

bioware... this is annother example for just giving a **** on your long time players.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Opiklo

[ikopo]

I assume next week there is a speedboost in the cartel market to make the achievement go x5 faster?

[Urthal]

Consider me among those wielding torches and pitchforks. Nearly went mad last year hugging 1000 wookies (I think some might have been strangled near the end) and this year you expect me to hug another 1500? Why should I bother, next year I will most likely need to hug another 2000, and 2500 the year after. Might as well get them all done in one big sweep, if whatever I hug this year won't count for next year.

 

On a related note, all these super grindy achievements (I'm looking at you, Swoop Rally event) don't really work for getting much goodwill from your customers. Quite the opposite, actually, as it shows a certain level of disdain and lack of respect for us.

[CasperAndersen]

Honestly i agree with everyone that this is very stupid, had the previous 1000 counted this would completely fine!

 

Also you should have added the ability to hug from a distance in these horrible corona times.

 

Although i'm 99% sure this is a bug and your saying this is correct behaviour just to save face, remember lying only makes things worse!

[Sattee]

Too bad they don't care. Edited December 20, 2020 by Sattee

[Darittha]

Biow, your positioning requirements for hugging the npc wookie really make sense, like u cant hug from any other angle other than face to face. And whats this: "too close" for a hug? seriously? too close... for a hug!

 

If you just removed this stupid no sense positioning requirement, level of annoyance of this cheevo would go down by 99,95% and you wouldnt be catching this much flak for basically just making us repeat previous cheevo +500 hugs more.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Darittha

[DeannaVoyager]

Biow, your positioning requirements for hugging the npc wookie really make sense, like u cant hug from any other angle other than face to face. And whats this: "too close" for a hug? seriously? too close... for a hug!

 

If you just removed this stupid no sense positioning requirement, level of annoyance of this cheevo would go down by 99,95% and you wouldnt be catching this much flak for basically just making us repeat previous cheevo +500 hugs more.

 

Just by making the distance easier, doesn't make resetting our last year cheevos a fair play. Personally, I don't care about the distance that much, I just change my character to walk mode for it. But I've already done 1000 last year, they should count for this year's 1500. If they can't do that, then the people who are starting it this year should also have to do 2500 in total. Anything else is unfair, and anyone with at least two working braincells should realize why people are upset about this thing. It's not just the idiotic grind in once in a year event at a time people would have better things to do, it's how veterans are being treated compared to new comers.

[DarkTergon]

Just by making the distance easier, doesn't make resetting our last year cheevos a fair play. Personally, I don't care about the distance that much, I just change my character to walk mode for it. But I've already done 1000 last year, they should count for this year's 1500. If they can't do that, then the people who are starting it this year should also have to do 2500 in total. Anything else is unfair, and anyone with at least two working braincells should realize why people are upset about this thing. It's not just the idiotic grind in once in a year event at a time people would have better things to do, it's how veterans are being treated compared to new comers.

 

Basically this, they should never have negated what we had done last year. But we're obviously not going to hear anything official again, they've already said it was intended, and slammed the door in our face, laughing and pointing at us. This thread will fall off the first page, some will do the event, some won't. But in the end, nothing will have changed....