No brackets? Something's wrong about that

[welshdraig]

Think its just a L2P probs im a lvl 14 sith assassin and im able to beat lvl 50s but does help 95% of the people i kill are back peddlers. Imo think its great how their is no brackets keeps the game a bit more fun can really tell by the bads and the good

[Greensiberia]

Think its just a L2P probs im a lvl 14 sith assassin and im able to beat lvl 50s but does help 95% of the people i kill are back peddlers. Imo think its great how their is no brackets keeps the game a bit more fun can really tell by the bads and the good

 

50 lvl troll detected

[ZombieMeerkat]

There is too good XP profit from WZs, and there is no way to be a twink.

 

Remember how they got around that in WoW? Leave before the game ends. Take the debuff, requeue. They'll never go away. Eventually, they were able to turn XP off, but that didn't work, so they went back to 'Queue, Quit, Requeue'. The debuff did so little.

[Exuberant]

Maybe my server sucks.

 

I sit at 12-14 and I have been PvPing with 3-2 other friends both under 20 and we win more than loose.

 

Yeah I don't have abilities, but as long as you play the objective you are fine.

 

Huttball, we position ourselves to score points, not to kill. We work together on Alderaan to secure a point if our team is good we won't leave. And Voidstar we contribute by constant pressure on O and D.

 

I run away from almost any 1v1 engagement. I play the team game. I get little to no kills, but secure the win is good enough for me.

[Zeromentor]

There is too good XP profit from WZs, and there is no way to be a twink.

 

Check out players between 15 and 19. Look at their gear. How many run with full epics?

 

I'd guess that the answer is a startling, "None".

Sure, with the XP the way it is you may only 'twink' in a bracket for only a few games (20? 30? I haven't done the math), but I wouldn't hazard a guess that people would start complaining about that, or having the option to turn XP gains from PvP off.

 

 

Now I'll let that last example go. But it is very easy to twink a character on this. Saying you can't is like telling me there are no Twinks on WoW and any player with half a brain knows the truth.

 

People need to think up an alternative. You don't fix a problem by moving the broken piece from the left to the right. It doesn't make sense.

[ZombieMeerkat]

I like to think of the current system like the Star Wars movies.

 

In the movies you had your Stormtroopers/Republic soldiers, then you have your Shaak'ti/Darth Maul, then you had your Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker.

 

Naturally, Darth Vader isn't going to die to a Republic grunt, nor would Skywalker die to a Trooper. Shaak'ti could easily handle a trooper, but not when zerged by them. Darth Vader could destry Shaak'ti.

 

Now:

Vader/Skywalker = 50

Shaak'ti/Maul = 30-49

Stormtrooper/Republic grunt = 10-29

 

It actually makes sense.

[Kalantris]

And yes, I now see you are in favor of twinks. That is the only reason you are still in favor of brackets. Skipping this fact, you are dropping how easy it is for someone to make or loot epic mods. I as an armstech can build epic barrels alone, which is a major damage buff for any weapons bar lightsabers. Cybertechs and Biochems could change that even more. Imagine for a moment a pack of people coming out of PvE with mostly greens, not quite their level, some blues and maybe an orange or two. Now compare these poor normal casual souls to a full epic twink with maxed epics and stims, using medpacks, PvP healing stims, Expertise Stims and whatever he could get his hands on. Wow, not much difference right?

 

First of all I'm not in favor of twinks. I literally hated the bastards in WoW and I have no other character than my main here in ToR. I never made any gear for my twinks in WoW to keep the game balanced. There's no satisfaction in wiping people with no chance to have half of your damage and survivability due to the fact, that they have no higher level brothers/sisters in the happy WoW family.

 

Second of all I'm an artificier myself with all three skills maxed since a long time ago and spend 10 hours a day sending companions on missions in search of gemstones (mostly). I have more than 300 of each type now and only 8 violet gemstones, which means I could make two mods, as each one costs 4. They would furthermore have to crit, which is highly doubtful at best even though I have companions with nearly maxed affection.

 

Now moving on to your "people coming out of PvE". Such players will be cannon fodder for everyone armed with oranges and blues from flashpoints, which is literally ubereasy to achieve. Twinks will be the higher tier for those (assuming you are correct and you can actually make enough items to create such a twink - basing on my experience from artifice I'd say you're horribly wrong).

 

I'd also like to point out, that the difference between items is not really that great. A blue lvl 39 crit crystal grants you +20 critical. A violet one grants you +22. A crited violet one gains another 2. That's 24 instead of 20 (available to everyone), which means a 20% increase. Not 150% like WoW.

 

Summary: I'm against twinks, stop making wrong assumptions (this seems to be your really bad habit), I'm still not against brackets until someone can prove me wrong by summing it up in a logical way, that it's actually possible to create a twink comparable in damage or survivability or CC capability to a level 50 mid-geared character (oranges + blues, no PvP gear).

 

Regards,

Kalantris

[ZombieMeerkat]

First of all I'm not in favor of twinks. I literally hated the bastards in WoW and I have no other character than my main here in ToR. I never made any gear for my twinks in WoW to keep the game balanced. There's no satisfaction in wiping people with no chance to have half of your damage and survivability due to the fact, that they have no higher level brothers/sisters in the happy WoW family.

 

Second of all I'm an artificier myself with all three skills maxed since a long time ago and spend 10 hours a day sending companions on missions in search of gemstones (mostly). I have more than 300 of each type now and only 8 violet gemstones, which means I could make two mods, as each one costs 4. They would furthermore have to crit, which is highly doubtful at best even though I have companions with nearly maxed affection.

 

Now moving on to your "people coming out of PvE". Such players will be cannon fodder for everyone armed with oranges and blues from flashpoints, which is literally ubereasy to achieve. Twinks will be the higher tier for those (assuming you are correct and you can actually make enough items to create such a twink - basing on my experience from artifice I'd say you're horribly wrong).

 

I'd also like to point out, that the difference between items is not really that great. A blue lvl 39 crit crystal grants you +20 critical. A violet one grants you +22. A crited violet one gains another 2. That's 24 instead of 20 (available to everyone), which means a 20% increase. Not 150% like WoW.

 

Summary: I'm against twinks, stop making wrong assumptions (this seems to be your really bad habit), I'm still not against brackets until someone can prove me wrong by summing it up in a logical way, that it's actually possible to create a twink comparable in damage or survivability or CC capability to a level 50 mid-geared character (oranges + blues, no PvP gear).

 

Regards,

Kalantris

 

In MMOs there is always going to be "Best In Slot". That's where twinks come from. If torhead actually had all the gear listed accurately, I'd link some more, but they're kinda behind it seems.

[Kalantris]

In MMOs there is always going to be "Best In Slot". That's where twinks come from. If torhead actually had all the gear listed accurately, I'd link some more, but they're kinda behind it seems.

 

The question is, if that "best in slot" is really that much better than average gear available to any player exploring the game content (including PvP, PvE, flashpoints, heroic quests, commendation gear). If the difference is as high as it is when comparing a level 15 to a level 50 character, then I'm all against brackets.

 

Regards,

Kalantris

[Zeromentor]

First of all I'm not in favor of twinks. I literally hated the bastards in WoW and I have no other character than my main here in ToR. I never made any gear for my twinks in WoW to keep the game balanced. There's no satisfaction in wiping people with no chance to have half of your damage and survivability due to the fact, that they have no higher level brothers/sisters in the happy WoW family.

 

Second of all I'm an artificier myself with all three skills maxed since a long time ago and spend 10 hours a day sending companions on missions in search of gemstones (mostly). I have more than 300 of each type now and only 8 violet gemstones, which means I could make two mods, as each one costs 4. They would furthermore have to crit, which is highly doubtful at best even though I have companions with nearly maxed affection.

 

Now moving on to your "people coming out of PvE". Such players will be cannon fodder for everyone armed with oranges and blues from flashpoints, which is literally ubereasy to achieve. Twinks will be the higher tier for those (assuming you are correct and you can actually make enough items to create such a twink - basing on my experience from artifice I'd say you're horribly wrong).

 

I'd also like to point out, that the difference between items is not really that great. A blue lvl 39 crit crystal grants you +20 critical. A violet one grants you +22. A crited violet one gains another 2. That's 24 instead of 20 (available to everyone), which means a 20% increase. Not 150% like WoW.

 

Summary: I'm against twinks, stop making wrong assumptions (this seems to be your really bad habit), I'm still not against brackets until someone can prove me wrong by summing it up in a logical way, that it's actually possible to create a twink comparable in damage or survivability or CC capability to a level 50 mid-geared character (oranges + blues, no PvP gear).

 

Regards,

Kalantris

 

18 pieces of gear at just a small 20% increase over their blue counterparts. Considering a casual player will probably not have full blue gear at that exact level unless they did it just for the PvP idea alone (or they LOVE collections of blue-colored items).

 

And now there are also datacrons, so someone can get those and have like what? Another whole 20 points per stat above a normal player? And have you checked hilt or barrel damage differences between blue and epic?

 

Your arguement is that if someone doesn't equip for PvP then they deserve to fail. So what is the difference between fighting a Level 50 with some PvP gear compared to a level 19 in a bracket of say 10-19 with nothing but purple?

Remember in WoW it started with entire guilds helping a minority to create super-powered twinks, and soon everyone had one. Is it really that hard to make 4 characters for Armstech (or Artifice) Armortech (or Synchweaving), Cybertech and Biochem? Do it yourself twinking with a high level to grind flashpoint for the gear you can't create. And commendations don't give you epics, and most people don't get enough to buy all the mods needed to fully outfit their entire set with blue mods.

 

Do the math yourself and see what you come up with. You have shown that you can think it through, so start doing it. Brackets will not work. A rating system that is already partially in place can work (it's on the gear already, they can use a combined formula) but brackets will not.

 

It's very simple actually.

[ZombieMeerkat]

The question is, if that "best in slot" is really that much better than average gear available to any player exploring the game content (including PvP, PvE, flashpoints, heroic quests, commendation gear). If the difference is as high as it is when comparing a level 15 to a level 50 character, then I'm all against brackets.

 

Regards,

Kalantris

 

It's pretty significant, yeah.

[Kromzor]

Brackets =/= Balance

 

See WoW.

 

lv 10 vs lv 50 = Balance?

 

This is why I don't support home schooling.

[Zeromentor]

lv 10 vs lv 50 = Balance?

 

This is why I don't support home schooling.

 

I support homeschooling over the mess I had to deal with.

 

Anyhow, yes a level 10 will usually be crushed by a 50, and that is what we are trying to fix. But that doesn't mean that bracketing levels will work any better.

 

I hope you have an idea, or some insight into this?

[Kalantris]

I support homeschooling over the mess I had to deal with.

 

Anyhow, yes a level 10 will usually be crushed by a 50, and that is what we are trying to fix. But that doesn't mean that bracketing levels will work any better.

 

I hope you have an idea, or some insight into this?

 

Perhaps a different mechanic could prevent that. A joined PvP level (similar to ELO) math formula placing your character lower/higher in the "soft brackets". Twinks would end up playing higher level characters due to their linked standing with their main character, while the real lowbies would end up playing against real lowbies. Soft brackets would also mean pairing lowbies with level 50s if there's nobody else available. Same should be done for premades vs pugs. Premades play premades unless there are none in the queue to play with them.

 

How's that?

 

Regards,

Kalantris

[ZombieMeerkat]

lv 10 vs lv 50 = Balance?

 

This is why I don't support home schooling.

 

That's not what I was saying. The OP stated that a bracket system would balance PVP, when in fact, it would not. Again, WoW is a PERFECT example of this.

 

I'll ignore your asinine childish troll comment and chalk it up to your mistake.

[Kalantris]

Your arguement is that if someone doesn't equip for PvP then they deserve to fail. So what is the difference between fighting a Level 50 with some PvP gear compared to a level 19 in a bracket of say 10-19 with nothing but purple?

Remember in WoW it started with entire guilds helping a minority to create super-powered twinks, and soon everyone had one. Is it really that hard to make 4 characters for Armstech (or Artifice) Armortech (or Synchweaving), Cybertech and Biochem? Do it yourself twinking with a high level to grind flashpoint for the gear you can't create. And commendations don't give you epics, and most people don't get enough to buy all the mods needed to fully outfit their entire set with blue mods.

 

I'd just like to comment on that. What's the difference between fighting a mid-geared level 50 and an epic geared level 19? Most of my damage comes from special skill rotation. I was nowhere near completing it on level 19. I didn't even have two of the most important skills. Both of them are tree skills. You can have one on level 20, the other one on level... 40. Then the rotation is complete. Gear is irrelevant against a level 10. I could be wearing all greens and kick the crap out of them, because a single rotation lasting around 7s deals up to 10k damage. I could do 1/3 of that damage on level 19 even geared up in epic stuff all the way. That's the difference.

 

Regards,

Kalantris

Edited December 30, 2011 by Kalantris

[Zeromentor]

Perhaps a different mechanic could prevent that. A joined PvP level (similar to ELO) math formula placing your character lower/higher in the "soft brackets". Twinks would end up playing higher level characters due to their linked standing with their main character, while the real lowbies would end up playing against real lowbies. Soft brackets would also mean pairing lowbies with level 50s if there's nobody else available. Same should be done for premades vs pugs. Premades play premades unless there are none in the queue to play with them.

 

How's that?

 

Regards,

Kalantris

 

All it took was a push, and you succeeded in working your brain. Congrats.

 

I'm not familiar with this "ELO" but a system like the above could balance it out. But really it comes down to how hard Bioware is willing to work to make PvP work.

 

It looks like any good potential system will quickly become complex and the formula will forever be lost to the public... I wonder if Bioware even pays attention to these threads, as I hope these debates, however aggressive, will be for a purpose.

EDIT: My last post as I need sleep, BADLY.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Zeromentor

[ZombieMeerkat]

Perhaps a different mechanic could prevent that. A joined PvP level (similar to ELO) math formula placing your character lower/higher in the "soft brackets". Twinks would end up playing higher level characters due to their linked standing with their main character, while the real lowbies would end up playing against real lowbies. Soft brackets would also mean pairing lowbies with level 50s if there's nobody else available. Same should be done for premades vs pugs. Premades play premades unless there are none in the queue to play with them.

 

How's that?

 

Regards,

Kalantris

 

Possible, but those'd have to be some pretty huge brackets or the queue times will absolutely suck.

 

Someone mentioned a system that would check a quote of level ranges per game. I liked that idea. Still one big bracket, but neither team would have any more of one level range in it over the other. Most premades would STILL work, too. It would just have to alter the quotas a bit. So if a group of 4 50s join, the quota would be 4 and 2 and 2 for both sides. It sounds reasonable enough.

[Kalantris]

All it took was a push, and you succeeded in working your brain. Congrats.

 

I'm not familiar with this "ELO" but a system like the above could balance it out. But really it comes down to how hard Bioware is willing to work to make PvP work.

 

It looks like any good potential system will quickly become complex and the formula will forever be lost to the public... I wonder if Bioware even pays attention to these threads, as I hope these debates, however aggressive, will be for a purpose.

 

The ELO system was created by a spanish(?) mathematician for chess players. It's considered to be the most accurate system of creating ladders and rankings and is used in many e-sports like League of Legends. Unlike PvP levels you can actually loose ELO and fall to a worse bracket. You're pretty much sure to face similarly skilled opponents unless you face someone, who's on his way to the upper bracket, just didn't manage to get enough points yet. There should be a ton of stuff about it on wiki and other sources, I'm not a mathematician myself, so I wouldn't like to explain it, as I might get something (or most of the things wrong).

 

Regards,

Kalantris

[Kalantris]

Possible, but those'd have to be some pretty huge brackets or the queue times will absolutely suck.

 

The brackets can be really tight. The idea is, that they are soft, so if there's no opponent in your bracket it would take opponents from higher/lower brackets instead. Short queue times and even games at least from time to time .

 

Regards,

Kalantris

[ZombieMeerkat]

The brackets can be really tight. The idea is, that they are soft, so if there's no opponent in your bracket it would take opponents from higher/lower brackets instead. Short queue times and even games at least from time to time .

 

Regards,

Kalantris

 

Ah, I gotcha. Yeah, that could work.

[Liriana]

Did I miss the part where you can turn off xp gains from pvp? Twinks really won't be an issue you can so much exp for pvp that you will level out of your backet and be down in the bottom of the next. Unless of course there is a way to turn of xp gain from pvp I do not see twinks as an issue with brackets right now. too much time investment for too short of a reward.

 

And although i would like brackets later...not just yet please

[MrHotter]

Did I miss the part where you can turn off xp gains from pvp? Twinks really won't be an issue you can so much exp for pvp that you will level out of your backet and be down in the bottom of the next. Unless of course there is a way to turn of xp gain from pvp I do not see twinks as an issue with brackets right now. too much time investment for too short of a reward.

 

And although i would like brackets later...not just yet please

 

What he said. No one wants to spend a week twinking out a character and then level out of the twink bracket in 3 days.

[Floored]

As a pvper myself, I find it strange that, unlike most MMOs, SWTOR doesn't have lvl brackets. So, Bioware... What gives? Here's some reasons why weneed brackets:

 

1) It gets annoying when lower levels on my server rant about how they are fails compared to lvl 25+ pvpers. They are always lvl 10-18 when they complain. To me, it's reason enough to post that.

 

2) Unfair advantages are bestowed upon higher lvl pvpers so they can easily rack up kills. It makes even a higher lvl like myself bad. That's why I RP more now.

 

3) Common sense is key in this. You want balanced gameplay, implement brackets. Bioware said they were trying to balance the game. No brackets? Not much balance there.

 

This post was meant in no offense to any players or Bioware employees

 

I'll fix your flawed idea with one reason not to.

 

30minute to hour long queues.

 

You'd be here complaining wither way. At least with the current system, you get a chance to PvP often, and you'll be 50, longer than you'll be 10-49.

[Aghar]

You just want brackets because your are used to them. Embrace change, don't be afraid.