Is this game engine, the only thing that prevented SWtOR from having a major succes ?

[Varlak]

I am asking this because bioware made so many things right, but it failed to have the succes EA expected.

 

Just thinking about the none force user. I was really woried about how they could make a class like the imperial agent beeing fun compared to a sith. But IMO they have totaly nailed it. operative is one of the funiest class to play in he MMO genre IMO.

 

The voice narated quest are just killing it.

 

The gameplay is fluid wich is a big selling point that many MMO failed.

 

The only big problem that I can think of is about the game engine.

 

Shadow had to be turned off upon lunching and well the graphic where pretty meh.

 

Do you guys can think of something else ?

[Pietrastor]

The engine doesn't help, but EA's commitement is the main reason. Simple. The type of MMO that SWTOR is requires money = manpower to create adequate amount of content to keep players in and bring new ones. FFXIV scored a massive comeback after failed launch (much worse one than SWTOR had) and actually keeps GROWING in playerbase numbers. But Square Enix poured big FAT money into continuous developement of the game. Similar case with ESO - failed launch, but Zenimax/Bethesa was persistient in its support and it's now undisputed #3 MMO in the western market with growing playerbase. SWTOR been managing to hold on some part of the playerbase just barely in the past 9 years. It never grew substantially and is almost out of the conversation among general gaming population. Edited August 4, 2020 by Pietrastor

[DarthExkarn]

Yes and no

[tummiswtor]

More fps, playing with 60 all the time on pvp heavy battles that whats i need to be happy in swtor.

[xordevoreaux]

Lack of sustained, direct advertising campaigns in major gaming outlets didn't help.

[DavidAtkinson]

SWTOR was intended to be a WoW killer and after it failed this task, EA just moved on and invested less and less into it.

 

It's their policy . They've done the same with ME Andromeda . And many other games.

 

One of the major reasons this game is still around and has quite a decent amount of people playing it is the fact that there was a LOT of talent involved in it's creation. The original developer team that created TOR was still mostly the Bioware we knew and loved from the KOTOR and Dragon Age Origins era. You can clearly see that they quite failed to come up with anything that comes close to the quality of vanilla SWTOR . Also don't forget that it's one of the most expensive game ever created ? Around 200 million dollars ? You probably remember those famous articles from " EA Louse" before launch saying how crazy all of this is. Every dialogue is voiced, " they spent more on voice overs than they did on actual game content " etc.

 

The current team working on the game, while still decent, it's a shadow of those talents involved in the creation of SWTOR, OR, they are really great but the resources they are getting are really minuscule and they can't do much with them . We dont' know, no one knows.

 

The engine ? Well, you can say they didn't quite pick the best engine for Anthem either ? Yeah, EA are stubborn when it comes to picking engines. BUT overall the game is great. I still love it since 2015 .

Edited August 4, 2020 by DavidAtkinson

[Pietrastor]

You can clearly see that they quite failed to come up with anything that comes close to the quality of vanilla SWTOR .

 

That's highly debatable when "vanilla SWTOR" includes both Agent storyline and something like Consular storyline

Edited August 4, 2020 by Pietrastor

[DavidAtkinson]

That's highly debatable when "vanilla SWTOR" includes both Agent storyline and something like Consular storyline

 

I was referring to the original game with 8 class stories .

[jedimasterjac]

The game's about as successful as most other still-operating MMOs that came out around the same time.

[supercometl]

That's highly debatable when "vanilla SWTOR" includes both Agent storyline and something like Consular storyline

 

The funny thing is, with all the bashing the consular storyline gets, you now go into it expecting it to be terrible and will probably be genuinely surprised by its quality. It was the last storyline I started (I think trooper was the last one I finished) and I really enjoyed it. I usually put it in the middle of the pack with my personal picks, which start with inquisitor followed by agent.

[OlBuzzard]

To OP ... both yes ... and no !

 

*** Yes the engine needs updated

*** Yes the original concept of stories for each class was a fantastic idea .. and it worked.

*** Yes .. so much of we have has been well done.

 

BUT ... of late what has happened has also severely impeded that growth.

 

*** the "bricking" or turning companions effectively into a block of wood ( AKA reducing interactions with said companions to a virtual state of non existence). Like it or not ... the companions in this game has been a foundational part of the game. The current state of the use of and interaction with (or total lack thereof ) has began to take it's toll. Consumer confidence in this area is at a significant low right now.

 

*** extremely short stories in recent updates. Regardless of why ... the simple fact is that when we DO get updates they are not "true" expansions. Again .. this is gradually undermining the really truly great work being done. Like it or not the game is needing some serious infusion of extended content in this area. The lack of it is casting doubt as to the commitment of those who ARE in control to the future of the game.

 

*** BUGS !!! YIKES !!! this is really hurting things right now.

 

I'm quite certain that many will think at this time the old man is just in a bad mood. I beg to differ.

 

I am still committed to continuing to play this game. But it would be a mistake for anyone to assume that my demeanor right now should be misread and thereby ignored.

 

Many of us are watching. Perhaps more carefully than most might give us credit for.

 

Conclusion:

This game still has the potential of being one of the best out there for years to come. How that is handled or utilized... that's not up to me or the players who post on this forum. That is out of my hands.

 

EDIT: Please note... these comments are not to be interpreted as to suggest that the game is dead or dying. But as stated ... these items as listed have drawn a lot of negative feed back and has definitely had a negative impact on the future / confidence of the game and it's future.

Edited August 4, 2020 by OlBuzzard

[Phazonfreak]

All good points. I would add another one into the mix that I think is a big contributing factor:

 

The game came out much too late for its massive scope trying to ride on the gravy train that was powered by WoW. MMORPGs as a genre were the big thing back then not only in gaming but as a cultural phenomenon. You just have to look at commercials and shows from that time and you will find references to MMORPGs in general and WoW in particular basically everywhere (my favourite still being the South Park episode about WoW).

 

SWTOR spend a long, long time in development before it finally came out and its mechanics were already outdated when it did, as hardcore players moved on to the more action/skill based mechanics of games in the coming years whereas casual players preferred the instant fix of mobile games. Nowadays MMORPGs are simply not as popular as they used to be (even a WoW struggles to keep its player base and tries to harken back to nostalgia to not sink) and the money can be found much easier elsewhere, as EA is desperately trying to keep up.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Phazonfreak

[EllieAnne]

First of all, the game had major success when it first started so the question is why is it not successful now. There are a lot of reasons why:

 

The company does only gives minimal concern for any community issues whether it be bugs, QoL issues, play issues, etc. Often there is no real response whatsoever to major issues and there are bugs that have never been addressed 5, 6, 7 YEARS after being known.

 

The company cannot decide what the game should be. It started as a story-heavy MMO. It moved away from that with the Hutt Cartel in that every class in each faction had the same story but at least with that and Revan it was a story to be played. The next series "Knights" is not a playable story - it is really a cinematic movie with some input.

And somewhere along the way it got confused as to whether content should be group-based or solo. Now what qualifies as a major addition are swoop races.

 

Another issues is that they have severely changed the game many times and it usually is done in a way that hurts long-term players (who leave) and favors new players since Bioware values F2P/Preferred over subs since they make more money via the Cartel Market. PvP was nerfed years ago. Peple complain that there is not enough content but I argue that the issue is with too much non-relevant content. They screwed up crafting long ago. So what you have now is a directionless quagmire of a game.

 

I think the best example I can give as to how they treat their customers is with the "Knights" storyline (although there are numerous examples of BW taking things away from the players). All those companions you developed relationships with? The ones you spent time, credits and resources on to build up? Say bye-bye because BW takes them away. So you spent 4.25 Million credits and three dark projects to jump them to level 50? Well you lose because we took those companions away from you. Yeah, a company that does that really does not care about the players and it shows but BW is more than happy if you spend some real money buying cartel coins to make your bounty hunter look like the Mandalorian, play for three days then never log in again.

 

With an attitude like that, is it a wonder SWTOR is going downhill fast?

 

-Elizabeth Anne, here since beta.

[ElleSheepy]

I also think engine is not the root issue. Management is. Both in game and community. Just look at the credit spam on starter planets. Some players see them, ponder how it reflects the state of the game, and leave for other games in disappointment. Edited August 5, 2020 by ElleSheepy

[Tsillah]

No, the main reason is that BioWare overestimated themselves and has a hard time dealing with criticism. This also affected their choice of the unfinished Hero engine and when you know BioWare, coding isn't necessarily their strong point.

 

When the game released SWTOR had already had the sort of development hell that is similar to ME:Andromeda for example. People sometimes forget that. The years long brain storming session or pre-production phase if you will, where BioWare would get off on their own cool ideas and scrapping them again because they came up with "something better" would ultimately lead to a limited production time. EA is seen as the bad guy in many cases but it's BioWare who time and again waste too much time in pre-production. The same is true of Anthem by the way.

 

But at the time they still believed in BioWare Magic™ and even though they had wasted a lot of time, they put on their best pink glasses and went ahead. They fully convinced themselves that people would flock over from other games like WoW and forgive the lack of QoL and spend a month or two on leveling. Neither was true. Some amenities or QoL items were expected, even of a new game. Things like legacy storage for example which took years still. Also because they felt that people would be leveling for a couple of months, they thought they could hold off on releasing endgame. However, the reality was that two weeks after release some people were already level 50 and only have one raid waiting for them...a buggy raid at that where the last boss would reset during the fight a lot and even when you did kill him, wouldn't have loot.

 

This ticked a lot of people off and the community heard about the endgame and how it was lacking. And so the trend was set. Normally MMOs would lose about 40% of their player base within 3-6 months. SWTOR almost lost double that. And all throughout BioWare would ignore complaints and act like everything was all fine. That attitude has cost them over the years and it's only marginally better now.

 

At the same time it has to be said that the trend was that people started questioning subs. So this wasn't necessarily SWTOR's fault but it was reinforced by it and more and more people also felt that being subbed wasn't worth it anymore. So combined with the other complaints this probably led to more people being motivated to unsub.

 

It is my view that new MMOs suffer from the issue that they think that because it's a new MMO they can do without certain things. And even though it's true that nobody expects the game to be as developed as existing games, there is a certain level of QoL and content that is expected at launch. SWTOR simply didn't meet that and neither have many other MMOs that came out after WoW.

 

So the engine was part of the issue but I believe there to be an overarching issue where BioWare are just a little too full of themselves and it's shown in recent years as well, Anthem being the latest disaster.

[lilathrone]

ESO is built on the hero engine and the performance / graphics is night and day. No, the game engine would be quite capable of handling a massive multiplayer game(as we see in ESO), the issues we see in swtor was imo because the incompetence of developers who was working on it.

BW games : Kotor, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, all were train wrecks in technical terms, they were successful, because the compensated with story, lore and characters. And I say this as a BioWare fan.

 

Having an optimized game would have certainly helped, but I would not blame the engine.

[Omernon]

A lot of people are playing this game as if it was a single player game and there is nothing bad about it, but when they run out of missions, when they complete all the stories they are interested in, then they quit and come back maybe few years later.

 

This is however not the best solution for player retantion. For that you need end game content and while end game content is there I kinda fail to see where does the game inform me of the benefits of doing it. I can get 306 IR through veteran FPs with little effort. I can get all the armor sets that I want through the exchange of curriencies that drop from veteran FPs as well. Beyond that I feel like there is very little incentive for me to delve deeper into the game's end game content and I don't think I am the only one.

 

Same thing with PvP. The game doesn't outright say what are the benefits of doing ranked PvP outside of growing larger epeen. And remember that MMORPGs are reward driven and if there is not enough rewards then you better have a fast stream of new content <-- in both cases SWTOR is lacking.

 

Solution is rather simple. Add more unique rewards to end game content and promote it more. Just more tech fragments and rare sets (especially where majority of the content doesn't even benefit from using them) is not enough when you have to go through the grind of gathering a group.

 

Maybe some sort of extra progression would be beneficial to the game? Like a Mastery System in GW2, but more tied to end game content. One that of course doesn't make characters that much powerful, but maybe gives them few more cool options to do in or outside combat (or some QoL improvements or maybe even cosmetic changes like some nice light/dark side auras etc).

 

The thing with MMORPGs is that many people will go through even the hardest grind just to have the end result of being noticable in the crowd. Something that makes other players look at the guy and think "WOW that guy went through hell and now he looks godlike, I want to be like him". If you do it right, then you will end up with a content that has a lot of replay value and is beneficial to the overall health of the game.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Omernon

[phalczen]

I don’t know. I know that just like SWG, the game was pushed to make the original launch date regardless. It launched incomplete, with several features intended for launch rolled out post, including but not limited to Karraga’s Palace. As I recall, they had to add a bunch of servers within weeks of launching because of queues. That seems to indicate that EA was willing to make a pretty big hardware investment, at least initially. But Disney was still a year away from acquiring Lucasfilm and two from even announcing a new movie. So I really do believe the game was hinging on three things, in no particular order:

 

1). Getting fans of the KOTOR games who were looking for a kotor 3 like experience

2). Getting fans of the only other SW MMORPG which had closed one month prior

3). Getting fans of WoW that were also big SW fans

 

I’m not sure that launch really delivered on any of those. It wouldn’t become kotor 3 really until the shadow of revan expansion, even though the groundwork for his fall is laid out in the vanilla game. Fans of SW galaxies were of course somewhat disappointed in the linear nature of the game, limited crafting and economy, and anemic RP tools, underdeveloped pvp, and lack of space combat. Fans of WoW were probably decrying the absence of important guild management tools, activity finder, and large scale raids, all of which would not come for several months to years. Without any movie buzz to generate interest, it didn’t really gain the momentum I guess people thought it would. I mean, I don’t work for finance at EA, I have no idea if the game is performing, and has performed, as expected during its nearly nine year tenure. It was popular enough to be featured on an episode of Big Bang Theory, one of the most popular Network tv sitcoms in recent years. If the current Steam numbers are to be believed SWTOR may be doing better than SWG was at the same age. I don’t know what it is about WoW, but no MMO has ever come close to its numbers.

 

I don’t think the engine played a role other than limiting open world pvp on Ilum. If that wasn’t a major part of the endgame at launch I don’t know that it would have been noticed as much. I’m not sure the engine was as much of a limiting factor, after all it was eventually able to bring us GSF, a game mode that was a pretty radical departure from what the original engine was designed for. One may like GSF or despise it, but you can’t deny it’s radically different from the ground game, and yet they are both built on the same engine, and you don’t really get the performance issues people got on Ilum.

 

But I’m not a game developer or programmer.

[tummiswtor]

For me engine is priority. I changed whole PC since i started in 2013 and swtor still **** with optimalization. Know many ppl that got problems too on overkill PCs. We can see that in steam threads or last threads on swtor.com

 

I already get used to have 20-25 fps during heavy battle but You can't even imagine how happy I would be if I could keep no lower than 60 and get smooth experience in PvP.

 

The problem is this game is so old, and they keeping it becouse still makes some mont so I don't think so they would invest money in engine...

 

ESO is built on the hero engine and the performance / graphics is night and day. No, the game engine would be quite capable of handling a massive multiplayer game(as we see in ESO), the issues we see in swtor was imo because the incompetence of developers who was working on it.

 

 

Played ESO almost 2 years ago on ultra setttings. Smooth Gameplay.

SWTOR lowest possible and lags. Here's my old screenshoot on lowest settings 33 fps. But trust me i can get 25 or lower too.

Edited August 5, 2020 by tummiswtor

[Tsillah]

ESO is built on the hero engine and the performance / graphics is night and day. No, the game engine would be quite capable of handling a massive multiplayer game(as we see in ESO), the issues we see in swtor was imo because the incompetence of developers who was working on it.

BW games : Kotor, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, all were train wrecks in technical terms, they were successful, because the compensated with story, lore and characters. And I say this as a BioWare fan.

 

Having an optimized game would have certainly helped, but I would not blame the engine.

BioWare bought the Hero engine BEFORE it was finished and "completed" it themselves. So really they are related but they can hardly be called the same engine.

[ZionHalcyon]

The engine doesn't help, but EA's commitement is the main reason. Simple. The type of MMO that SWTOR is requires money = manpower to create adequate amount of content to keep players in and bring new ones. FFXIV scored a massive comeback after failed launch (much worse one than SWTOR had) and actually keeps GROWING in playerbase numbers. But Square Enix poured big FAT money into continuous developement of the game. Similar case with ESO - failed launch, but Zenimax/Bethesa was persistient in its support and it's now undisputed #3 MMO in the western market with growing playerbase. SWTOR been managing to hold on some part of the playerbase just barely in the past 9 years. It never grew substantially and is almost out of the conversation among general gaming population.

 

There is a lot of truth to this.

 

The long and short of it is that BioWare, if you believe the initial reports that came out last year, never really wanted to make an MMO in the first place. What they did with Kotfe and Kotet was what they always wanted to do, which is why it feels so cinematic and single player. then they wanted multiplayer hubs for people to congregate and talk but the story itself would have been single player.

 

EA had insisted on them turning it into an MMO, can because bioware's heart was never truly in it, they have themselves never wanted to dedicate the resources required to supporting a true MMO and instead internally, and now publicly adopted a platform of them not caring if people stopped subscribing and leave, and then come back when they have content.

 

whether you believe any of the other reports, that last line is something that is finally been publicly stated and is on the record for BioWare. You'll have to go digging through articles last year because I'm not about to dig it up for you given that I have a life myself but I do remember reading it last year when stuff started coming out about the state of the MMO.

 

If you want the full history, the initial group wanted to continue things the way vanilla was going but had a lot of headwinds because of the prejudices and biases within BioWare. He eventually stepped in and cleaned house. What followed was executive producers who are more bean-counters than actual creative directors and that caused the product to suffer. You also saw the complete abandonment of class story. turns out that for the longest time we all blamed EA but this was in fact an internal BioWare move because they never wanted to make MMOs in the first place.

 

What I will say is this: while the pace of everything has been far from satisfactory, record game itself hasn't seen this much positive improvement ever since Keith Kannig took over.

 

Why Onslaught was entirely too brief, the quality was through the roof in terms of the story. In fact going back to Ossus, you saw internally a rejection of the way KOTFE crapped all over the original story lines leading up to it, and now is respecting the vanilla game's stories, while still maintaining the production value that was significantly improved within Kotfe.

 

On top of that, the game is now on steam which is bringing in a lot more players. These are moves that previous BioWare administration's would never have done. In fact, they have publicly "doubled down on stupid" in the past when dealing with screwing with the storylines.

 

While nothing was ever mentioned publicly, it does feel like the backlash had a significant impact as Keith was in charge at that time, and since then, the creative lead, Charles Boyd, despite having tried to publicly justify his screwing with vanilla storyline in kotfe on the forums and catching massive hell for it, has since being extremely deferential to it and seems to have learned that players who were attached to the stories want to continue to feel that connective tissue, and that you can't simply jettison old stories because you think a new idea is cool. If I am being honest, it's forced Charles to elevate his writing game and the story has been better as a result.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that if I take a step back, it does look like BioWare is trying to position itself in a spot to bring in enough of revenue or whatever it is they need to grow the game.

 

The argument could be made that prior to Keith, there just was a lot wrong with BioWare, functionally, philosophically, and historically.

 

Under Keith, things seem to be getting sorted out finally. However the pace is glacially slow. That though could also deed because as I said, historically there has been so much wrong. And a lot of bad philosophy driving it. It's like trying to turn around a massive cruise ship 180 degrees. It's just going to take time and you can't stop delivering content in order to do it. I do think this steam thing is major. I do think it's important that EA has recently and multiple times talked about renewing its commitments not just to Star Wars but to this game.

 

I think a lot will depend on what does steam numbers look like.

 

But at the core it will always be one thing and one thing only that keeps this from being a AAA MMO.

 

That is BioWare's own philosophy that they do not care if people leave and come back later when there is content.

 

that has been a consistent BioWare philosophy from the very beginning and as I said, I heard it publicly reiterated last year, not from Keith, but I think it was James Olson? Not 100% sure so don't quote me on that. But whoever said it was high enough to set policy. and unfortunately that policy is absolutely horrible for MMO player retention.

 

Until BioWare focuses on player retention, the cinema will never be what it was meant to be. otherwise they would have gone forward with continuing class stories and there would be a huttball league as early on in the game these were the top two demands from the player base and both got soundly ignored.

 

Anyway history lesson is over.

Edited August 5, 2020 by ZionHalcyon

[ZionHalcyon]

One final addendum:

 

The insight into BioWare in behind the scenes was so significant that it did prompt Eric Musco to say that the quality tester was never a BioWare employee but didn't offer further comment.

 

To understand though that from a legal position, companies like BioWare will often subcontract out certain duties like quality testing to third-party groups. So it can be deceptive him saying the person was not a BioWare employee, because if he was a contractor, that still is technically correct as his in place of employment is the contracting company, but then he still worked on the game.

 

So unless they come out and say this guy didn't work on the game, which they did not actually say, then when you find the article in question, which was written by someone who has spent his life quality testing games and had some insights that made a lot of sense with regards to BioWare, I would definitely put some stock into it as for many of us, a lot of things clicked in terms of what was wrong with bioware's culture and philosophies after reading it. The insight was fantastic.

[ZionHalcyon]

Okay, final addendum to the addendum:

 

The original post that exposed a lot of this is still up in the off-topic forum:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=968223

 

more so than the thread itself, read the links it provides and you will get a fuller understanding of just what's gone wrong with the development of the game and why it's not as big as it could have been.

 

That was originally in the general discussion but even though they moved it to the off-topic, I will give BioWare credit for leaving it up instead of deleting it.

[merovejec]

I would say yes, the game could have been someplace else with a better engine. Yet they do have server hardware issues too, so hard to tell if thats the only reason.

[DarthMaulUK]

I am asking this because bioware made so many things right, but it failed to have the succes EA expected.

 

Just thinking about the none force user. I was really woried about how they could make a class like the imperial agent beeing fun compared to a sith. But IMO they have totaly nailed it. operative is one of the funiest class to play in he MMO genre IMO.

 

The voice narated quest are just killing it.

 

The gameplay is fluid wich is a big selling point that many MMO failed.

 

The only big problem that I can think of is about the game engine.

 

Shadow had to be turned off upon lunching and well the graphic where pretty meh.

 

Do you guys can think of something else ?

I think Bioware themselves are one of the reasons why this game has limited success. Their decision making process has been staggering over the years, changing things that didn't need changing, ignoring things that did and that is essentially the history of this game.