Matte_Black Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 As this conversation has once more come around to a debate over fundamentals, rather than specifics of the mod system, I'm going to throw this out again. -Various individuals who are pro increased customization options= fighting for what their own character looks like -Various individuals who are anti increased customization options= fighting for what other people's characters look like When it comes right down to it, some people want to control their own character, others want to control everyone's character. I don't take well to having people tell me I can't wear something because they don't like it. I don't like, for my own little world, that the slave bikini is a modable item that can be worn for combat. So, I don't wear it for combat (though, I will admit to considering wearing only part of it to create a different look, though a lot of that has to do with my frustration over the options I have at my disposal). But what I don't do is come to the forums and try to tell others that they shouldn't be able to wear it if they want to. It's their character. They look at it the entire time they are playing, I look at it momentarily. I even have a friend in the game who wears one on her JC, doesn't bother me at all. Of course, she's healing, not tanking, but even if that weren't the case, who cares, not my character to decide these things for. As such, I really have no sympathy for the argument of Atab breaking immersion. The only way it even could break immersion, btw, is if the immersion is already broken and you think about the gear from a meta-game perspective. In-game, its impact is no different than the mod system. From a character perspective, there is no way to know that a mod system look and Atab look are any different. They are UI instruments. The UI doesn't exist to the characters. In my case, I want the professional devolpers and artists who provide me with the game to have a hand in how the game world looks and acts. My preference is that they be able to set the tone and default and the players have the option to invest, sacrifice or work to step outside that vision and express themselves. The path of least resistance can populate a central core of how SWTOR's characters are supposed to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnuskn Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Although it wasn't posted in this thread ( because, hey, why start now if you've ignored us for 1 1/2 years already ^^ ), this post from Emmanuel Lusinchi seems promising: The current situation with end game gear and item modifications isn’t final and, in fact, many community members like yourself have correctly guessed at what our plans to correct the current design are. Since this is a fairly important issue to many players, let me disclose more details about what is currently in the work regarding purple items and mods: - All partially moddable purple items will be made fully moddable again, allowing the removal of the armoring, hilt and barrel. - The set bonus of end gear purples (PVP and PVE) will be transferable to custom items. - Some item modifications will be restricted to a certain item type. For example, some item modifications will only fit on helmets, while other will only fit on chests, etc. As usual, the caveats about unfinished work apply, but this should give you and the community a very good idea of our intentions. We are serious about making custom gear an entirely valid alternative to end game gear and we support the players’ ability to customize their appearance all the way to (and including) end game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 In my case, I want the professional devolpers and artists who provide me with the game to have a hand in how the game world looks and acts. My preference is that they be able to set the tone and default and the players have the option to invest, sacrifice or work to step outside that vision and express themselves. The path of least resistance can populate a central core of how SWTOR's characters are supposed to look. You mean, those same professional developers and artists who created the majority of the smuggler gear to be long coats, knowing that they'd have pistols strapped to their hips, continuously clipping through the coat (not just certain animations, it's continuous)? Those same professional developers and artists who attached personal floatation devices to a large amount of gear designed for a character who is constantly referred to as a spacer (here's a hint: you don't need a life-preserver in order to float in space)? Those same developers and artists who pasted a metal plate onto the chest of a jacket, then pasted a fabric, stand-up collar onto the top of the metal plate (the reality of the armor build is likely just that the collar is clipping up THROUGH the metal plate, but at least thinking of it as pasted on top seems a little more likely to follow the rules of the physical world)? Yeah, they're doing a great job of choosing what I look like. I'd like to share a recent post by GZ: Hi Alexious, Style is something that is very subjective and what some people love, others find unacceptable. The solution to that lies in allowing players to control their own style, a function that the core game currently provides via customizable (orange) gear. Please see Emmanuel's post on extending orange gear viability into endgame to get an idea of our intentions. Obviously, new appearances will also be added to the game over time as well. Regards Georg Some key phrases from the above: -Style is something that is very subjective -control their own style -currently provides -our intentions It would seem that maybe they do understand that we want to choose for our characters, but that it's a work in progress and isn't there yet. This thread happens to be a way to communicate ideas for getting it there. In lieu of some idea for fixing the mod system to open things up from the layers and layers of RNG and luck under which it is currently buried, the Atab would be a solution to achieve the goals desired. The option to choose "dark blue" or "navy blue" is not really having options, it's an illusion of choice. That is what we have now. There's orange gear, but I have 3 recolors of the same exact long jacket (and there's a 4th on the Tat commendation vendor), that clips the way they all do, yet of the handful of smuggler-intended gear I have found that I like in green or blue items, I don't have access to a single one in a modable version. I don't care if it theoretically exists in the game's database. My character cannot wear a theoretically existing item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runeshard Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 In my case, I want the professional devolpers and artists who provide me with the game to have a hand in how the game world looks and acts. My preference is that they be able to set the tone and default and the players have the option to invest, sacrifice or work to step outside that vision and express themselves. The path of least resistance can populate a central core of how SWTOR's characters are supposed to look. In other words, controling and dictating what we all look like followed by punishment if we don't obey... Lovely. They already have a hand in how the game looks, all the gear is designed by them after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 You mean, those same professional developers and artists who created the majority of the smuggler gear to be long coats, knowing that they'd have pistols strapped to their hips, continuously clipping through the coat (not just certain animations, it's continuous)? Those same professional developers and artists who attached personal floatation devices to a large amount of gear designed for a character who is constantly referred to as a spacer (here's a hint: you don't need a life-preserver in order to float in space)? Those same developers and artists who pasted a metal plate onto the chest of a jacket, then pasted a fabric, stand-up collar onto the top of the metal plate (the reality of the armor build is likely just that the collar is clipping up THROUGH the metal plate, but at least thinking of it as pasted on top seems a little more likely to follow the rules of the physical world)? Yeah, they're doing a great job of choosing what I look like. In short, yes. I won't split hairs with you about each design. I have a list of ones I don't like too along side of the ones I do fancy. The consensus seems to be that they could have done a better job, especially on the looks that were slotted in as high level. Even if objectional to you, they do have a theme and evolution and progression that helps define class and power level. I'd definitely like to see some beteer example in certain areas but, that does not mean I don't want there to be a visual syntax across the avaialable outfits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) In other words, controling and dictating what we all look like followed by punishment if we don't obey... Lovely. They already have a hand in how the game looks, all the gear is designed by them after all. Funny, when I had to do my chores as a kid so my parents would buy me some Nikes or earn money to buy my own, that was not called "punishment"? They also slotted those looks into a visual hierarchy, I rather that be maintained. I like it when a hardcore bunch of combatants show up that they actually look like what hardcore is supposed to look like in this era of SW as opposed to a bunch of snappy dressers expressing their personal style. I also like that it means something about his level of skill if a jedi knight rocked me in PvP wearing light armor or Tythonian robes. I think if you want to look daring, desitute or humble in what appears to be basic gear you should actually have to walk some of that walk. I can compromise and have that performance fall off shrunk down but, it should be present or at least require some work to avoid. Edited January 11, 2012 by Matte_Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) In short, yes. I won't split hairs with you about each design. I have a list of ones I don't like too along side of the ones I do fancy. The consensus seems to be that they could have done a better job, especially on the looks that were slotted in as high level. Even if objectional to you, they do have a theme and evolution and progression that helps define class and power level. I'd definitely like to see some beteer example in certain areas but, that does not mean I don't want there to be a visual syntax across the avaialable outfits. They design every piece of gear in the game. If I wear Y instead of X. . . it's still their design. What visual syntax would be removed by removing RNG? RNG creates the exact opposite. You can't have a pattern when things are random. They designed a series of gear with the various pieces being acquired at different levels/places in the game. They then provided a way to bring the lower level items up to higher level. The issue isn't that pieces can't be improved to be used later in the game; that's already there. The the pieces that can be used are acquired at random. The random acquisition doesn't stop "lower level" items that are acquired from being used. It simply eliminates choice in which of the "lower level" item is used. And if this "follow the gearing bread-crumbs" thing is so important to you, then do it WITH YOUR CHARACTER. Leave my character alone! Oh, and btw, I'm not, in my previous post, splitting hairs over designs, I'm talking about execution of design (clipping, cut and paste parts). Ok, yes, the floatation device issue is more of a design thing, but really, it's just wrong. Edited January 11, 2012 by Vodalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharnis Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Funny, when I had to do my chores as a kid so my parents would buy me some Nikes or earn money to buy my own, that was not called "punishment"? They also slotted those looks into a visual hierarchy, I rather that be maintained. I like it when a hardcore bunch of combatants show up that they actually look like what hardcore is supposed to look like in this era of SW as opposed to a bunch of snappy dressers expressing their personal style. I also like that it means something about his level of skill if a jedi knight rocked me in PvP wearing light armor or Tythonian robes. I think if you want to look daring, desitute or humble in what appears to be basic gear you should actually have to walk some of that walk. I can compromise and have that performance fall off shrunk down but, it should be present or at least require some work to avoid. Oh, dear God. Will you please stop this broken record? There is no "visual hierarchy." There is no "visual progression." The very moment they put in gear that is moddable and can be used from level 10 to level 50, that "progression" was stuffed into a garbage bag and thrown to the curb. And now that they've confirmed that end game gear will not only have the mods be transfered to orange gear, but also have the set bonus transfered, that "visual hierarchy" was thrown into the back of the truck and crushed by the compactor. Your desire to have the "gravity of the look" (again, another phrase that means absolutely nothing) has been dashed. The devs have actually come right out and told you this. You don't have to tell us what the devs "intended" the game to be gear-wise, because the devs themselves have said that we will be able to look however we want, regardless of our level. There will be no compromise. There will be no performance degredation. We will be able to look however we want to look, provided there are enough choices in moddable gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Oh, dear God. Will you please stop this broken record? There is no "visual hierarchy." There is no "visual progression." The very moment they put in gear that is moddable and can be used from level 10 to level 50, that "progression" was stuffed into a garbage bag and thrown to the curb. And now that they've confirmed that end game gear will not only have the mods be transfered to orange gear, but also have the set bonus transfered, that "visual hierarchy" was thrown into the back of the truck and crushed by the compactor. Your desire to have the "gravity of the look" (again, another phrase that means absolutely nothing) has been dashed. The devs have actually come right out and told you this. You don't have to tell us what the devs "intended" the game to be gear-wise, because the devs themselves have said that we will be able to look however we want, regardless of our level. There will be no compromise. There will be no performance degredation. We will be able to look however we want to look, provided there are enough choices in moddable gear. This^^^. It's not a matter of gear or ability to decide how we look, that is in the game already. The issue that I, and I believe most here have, is the accessibility of the items of our choosing. We'll work for it, if the option is there. Having access to customizable gear isn't the same as having access to the gear we want, even if the gear we want is among the customizable gear. I want to be able to acquire a modable version of one of the common smuggler tops. It goes by many names, and I've seen it in both blue and red (the red one being my preference). But I can't get to it because getting it is a lottery. It's not a choice, it's not something to work toward or strive for. It's dumb friggin' luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Oh, dear God. Will you please stop this broken record? There is no "visual hierarchy." There is no "visual progression." The very moment they put in gear that is moddable and can be used from level 10 to level 50, that "progression" was stuffed into a garbage bag and thrown to the curb. And now that they've confirmed that end game gear will not only have the mods be transfered to orange gear, but also have the set bonus transfered, that "visual hierarchy" was thrown into the back of the truck and crushed by the compactor. Your desire to have the "gravity of the look" (again, another phrase that means absolutely nothing) has been dashed. The devs have actually come right out and told you this. You don't have to tell us what the devs "intended" the game to be gear-wise, because the devs themselves have said that we will be able to look however we want, regardless of our level. There will be no compromise. There will be no performance degredation. We will be able to look however we want to look, provided there are enough choices in moddable gear. Dramatic much? There is a visual progression and defined class/level looks. It's on every piece of non-orange gear. You just don't want there to be one. Yes, you can escape from it with some effort and some orange gear but, that represents the compromise between full player freedom and BioWare's directorial control. Explain how ever you need to understand it but, the intention is for their to be an easy default to the intended class/level look for your character that is not a hard lock on what you can do but, must be resisted to rewrite your vision for your character over BioWare's vison for such a character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runeshard Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Funny, when I had to do my chores as a kid so my parents would buy me some Nikes or earn money to buy my own, that was not called "punishment"? They also slotted those looks into a visual hierarchy, I rather that be maintained. I like it when a hardcore bunch of combatants show up that they actually look like what hardcore is supposed to look like in this era of SW as opposed to a bunch of snappy dressers expressing their personal style. I also like that it means something about his level of skill if a jedi knight rocked me in PvP wearing light armor or Tythonian robes. I think if you want to look daring, desitute or humble in what appears to be basic gear you should actually have to walk some of that walk. I can compromise and have that performance fall off shrunk down but, it should be present or at least require some work to avoid. If you're trying to win anyone over with that analogy then it was a poor choice. As was mentioned above in another post, any kind of visual hierarchy goes right out the window with modable gear anyway, especially social gear. As for gear meaning something in regards to level it really isn't that apparent all of the time, perhaps not even most of the time. I was waiting for the balloon ride on Tatooine and along comes another Jedi Guardian, the difference between my robes and his was very small, at that time I was level 30, after a while I notice that he's level 49. I check his gear and he's wearing a level 48 non modable robe. I don't see much reason for the stance "you must suffer the consequences of looking a certain way" Seeing as modable gear already disrupts visual progression and hierarchy I can't see any valid reason for that stand point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtSplacker Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It always strikes me as odd when people try to stop others from having what they want. Rather than find a solution that works. The SWTOR community is so outspoken about every little thing I worry this game will go the way of SWG sometimes... I hope bioware can just ignore the lamos and little kids. I say add the appearance tab, but include an option to ignore the appearance tab on the client... done. All the negative nancys can have their occular cancer, and the normal folks can look good all day/night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilHyral Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Do we just say /support, because I support this. I guess if there's some priority box I'd place this in the top ten for this title. The potential and capability is already there - I've seen iterations of existing gear with different color swatches. Seems like a bit of work for a lot of reward - this sort of richness keeps certain MMOs at the top of the pile. edit: It always strikes me as odd when people try to stop others from having what they want. Absolutely. This same bit played out with the LFG tool in Rift, and the game got better for it. Anyone who wants to sustain a local community can found and support a guild. Anyone who wants ease of access can use the LFG tool. They are not mutually exclusive, the tool doesn't create jerks or idiots and guilds don't prevent socializing outside a sample player roster. With item customization it's the same deal. People who don't want to use it simply don't have to. They lose nothing. The players who do want to use it, well, they have one more reason to stay subscribed. Edited January 11, 2012 by WilHyral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelle Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I would very much like to see the addition of a barber/character re-customization utility.... for masks, makeup, tattoos, face masks (for miraluka), etc. So.. /support! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I would very much like to see the addition of a barber/character re-customization utility.... for masks, makeup, tattoos, face masks (for miraluka), etc. So.. /support! I have a feeling (based upon some comments here and there and a conversation with an inside source during beta; general hints, not specifics) that this type of thing will eventually be implemented as part of the legacy system. Edited January 13, 2012 by Vodalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matte_Black Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I would very much like to see the addition of a barber/character re-customization utility.... for masks, makeup, tattoos, face masks (for miraluka), etc. So.. /support! Great additions that I don't think I have heard anyone against aside from fixing/adding other things before them. As a former SWG Image Designer, I'd love to see more of that aspect of the game, especially a couple more body shapes per gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfer Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Dramatic much? There is a visual progression and defined class/level looks. It's on every piece of non-orange gear. You just don't want there to be one. Yes, you can escape from it with some effort and some orange gear but, that represents the compromise between full player freedom and BioWare's directorial control. Explain how ever you need to understand it but, the intention is for their to be an easy default to the intended class/level look for your character that is not a hard lock on what you can do but, must be resisted to rewrite your vision for your character over BioWare's vison for such a character. You actually think the level 50 PvP and PvE gear looks good? Wow, just wow! It's so horrible I feel like I just downgraded my character once I hit 50. WZ's have gotten boring because everyone is starting to look the same; it leads to a very bland setup. It would be more tolerable if they had plenty more choices but some of that gear design is just so bad it's laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeddyBearSniper Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 BW already has a great appearance customization system. You people can stop wishing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illgot Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 If something like the level 50 gear looks great to you, you are lucky. For those of that that think it is unattractive for our character, we would like a change. I've stopped playing my main due to the crappy looking armor at 50. I refuse to look like everyone else and I refuse to be sub par. I'm leveling a new character and love my new look at the 30s, but once I hit the 50s I'll drop the game. I'm not going to keep leveling characters to 50, get sick of looking at them, then reroll another character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthRaneDeer Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 BW already has a great appearance customization system. You people can stop wishing now. ^^^ This. You're asking for a customization system in this game that you have seen in other games, while this game already has a great customization system. Apologies that robe wearers can't wear heavy armor for...whatever reason. Asking for an alt appearance tab is going nowhere. The question you should be asking is this: Can we have the light/medium/heavy attribute tied to an armor mod, and not the piece of armor we place it in. Such that you will still be wearing light armor, it will just appear as heavy. This solves your issue and uses the current system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) ^^^ This. You're asking for a customization system in this game that you have seen in other games, while this game already has a great customization system. Apologies that robe wearers can't wear heavy armor for...whatever reason. Asking for an alt appearance tab is going nowhere. The question you should be asking is this: Can we have the light/medium/heavy attribute tied to an armor mod, and not the piece of armor we place it in. Such that you will still be wearing light armor, it will just appear as heavy. This solves your issue and uses the current system. Some of us lobbied, quite literally, for years to get a decent appearance customization system in this game. BW had a lot of potential for one with the mod system. Sure, it may not have been the ideal system for some, but it could have been a workable, and maybe even good one. Unfortunately, we ended up with the hybrid system where some gear is worthless because it's not modable, and the modable stuff is primarily based around a very, very, winning-the-lottery low probability that is dependent, not just aided by, but fully dependent on crafting. It's great that they are fixing one of the big failures of their system by changing the purple gear. But such failures wouldn't have even existed if they had actually paid attention to the testers and other forum members and not made this absolute last-minute change to their system. Based on this, and many other similar situations, I have no confidence in their ability to "fix" the mod system. As such, I fully support simply adding an Atab to the game. Edited January 14, 2012 by Vodalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnuskn Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'd say that it's all dependent on how the economy develops, because at least on my server only a very few crafters bother to keep their stuff constantly in the AH. Making your appearance customization dependent on the whim of other people is not a good solution, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikoagonistes Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Without getting into all the arguments regarding an appearance tab, I have to say ... BioWare, please, please, please bring back the color tab (i.e. the "anti-clown" button). Ever since I bought the game and started my Trooper, I've wanted armor that was red or red-trimmed. When I found a fellow trooper on a similar level to myself with such a chestpiece, I wondered how the heck he got it. Eventually (through a friend) I realized that it was only obtainable through the notorious Trouble in Deed quest (man, those Justicars really hate that business guy, don't they?). So, one Saturday morning, I took on that quest with the help of a few Jedi who wanted to go through the quest as well, and eventually obtained my desired chestpiece. Afterwards, however, I have had to discard several pieces of armor due to the fact that they clashed with my red-and-white chestplate. (All right! Those armored gloves will look gr- what?! They're trimmed in "green!") In my search for better armor that didn't look clownish, I undertook the Armormesh skill (well, once I heard you might be able to make armor similar to what I wanted) and have been desperately scavenging places for aluminum, desh and whatnot, all in a desperate quest for good leg and hand armor that, if not red, is at least only black-and-white. (It's especially frustrating since the higher you go up in Armormech, the more complicated pieces you have to make to increase your level, and I do not like the thought of scouring Coruscant again for more aluminum. Or other materials...) This problem could all be solved quite easily, if Bioware would just bring back that button... (While I do think they should have gone with color customization for everyone, I myself would simply be satisfied if they just reinstated the "anti-clown" button.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodalus Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Without getting into all the arguments regarding an appearance tab, I have to say ... BioWare, please, please, please bring back the color tab (i.e. the "anti-clown" button). Ever since I bought the game and started my Trooper, I've wanted armor that was red or red-trimmed. When I found a fellow trooper on a similar level to myself with such a chestpiece, I wondered how the heck he got it. Eventually (through a friend) I realized that it was only obtainable through the notorious Trouble in Deed quest (man, those Justicars really hate that business guy, don't they?). So, one Saturday morning, I took on that quest with the help of a few Jedi who wanted to go through the quest as well, and eventually obtained my desired chestpiece. Afterwards, however, I have had to discard several pieces of armor due to the fact that they clashed with my red-and-white chestplate. (All right! Those armored gloves will look gr- what?! They're trimmed in "green!") In my search for better armor that didn't look clownish, I undertook the Armormesh skill (well, once I heard you might be able to make armor similar to what I wanted) and have been desperately scavenging places for aluminum, desh and whatnot, all in a desperate quest for good leg and hand armor that, if not red, is at least only black-and-white. (It's especially frustrating since the higher you go up in Armormech, the more complicated pieces you have to make to increase your level, and I do not like the thought of scouring Coruscant again for more aluminum. Or other materials...) This problem could all be solved quite easily, if Bioware would just bring back that button... (While I do think they should have gone with color customization for everyone, I myself would simply be satisfied if they just reinstated the "anti-clown" button.) Wait, are you saying you wouldn't feel short-changed or like you are not progressing in the game if you made the conscious decision to enable an optional feature that ensured that your boots didn't clash with the rest of your gear when you got a new pair? Yes, I'm being facetious. BW's PR spin on that particular decision was one of the most lame things I've ever heard. Edited January 14, 2012 by Vodalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksthedude Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 /signed more character customisation and more/better looking gear. This obviously such a big issue for so many people. Sort it out Bioware... I dont care about a rakghoul outbreak.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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