Let us kill Ashara

[DarthCasus]

I honestly think it's hilarious that the Sith Inquisitor ends up on the Dark Council pretty much by accident. They didn't scheme to get there, they didn't plan for it. Thanaton just went whagarble and started a war with the SI and then he killed his own master and ended up on the Dark Council himself, continued his war with the SI, then the SI killed him and bam, SI is on the Dark Council without even meaning to be. Laughed myself silly when that happened.

 

Exactly, the blundering their way to the top was really well done. Thanaton doesn't even get 'finished' by you! The amount of luck makes the Inq the only true hybrid class we have. Half Sith, Half Smuggler, all luck.

[rumpol]

Ashara does not believe you are changing the Empire to embrace the light. You have a conversation with her where she tells the Inq she understands the Empire wont become good but she wants it to be rational.

 

You see Ashara using the Dark Side in the Shadows of Revan intro cinematic and you see her obviously communing with the Dark Side when you meet her again on Voss.

 

She also emotes her hybrid of the Sith and Jedi codes, "Passion, Peace. Strength, Knowledge. Power, Serenity. Victory, Harmony. Freedom, The Force."

 

@Ner. If you think she is light orientated. Take her around Voss and Belsavis and see what she approves of. Here is a selection. Slapping the Trandoshians in shock collars to force them to do your will. Releasing convicted psychopaths to torture and murder Republic guards. Keeping the Esh-Ka riled up in captivity to unleash on the galaxy. Killing Voss for throwing around some paperwork and then burning the bodies so the other Voss don't find out. Binding the Voss ghost just incase he might prove useful.

[rumpol]

I honestly think it's hilarious that the Sith Inquisitor ends up on the Dark Council pretty much by accident. They didn't scheme to get there, they didn't plan for it. Thanaton just went whagarble and started a war with the SI and then he killed his own master and ended up on the Dark Council himself, continued his war with the SI, then the SI killed him and bam, SI is on the Dark Council without even meaning to be. Laughed myself silly when that happened.

 

By that standard, the Warrior ended up being the Wrath by accident. He didn't plan it, he just got lucky that Baras went all "whagarble" and started a war with him..

[Elessara]

By that standard, the Warrior ended up being the Wrath by accident. He didn't plan it, he just got lucky that Baras went all "whagarble" and started a war with him..

 

Not really no. The Hand chose the SW to be the next Wrath, almost certainly at the direction of the Emperor. The SW didn't stumble into it, they were specifically chosen. Now it might be that the SW was chosen because they had a problem with Baras ... or it might just be they were chosen because they were powerful. Or both. Probably both. But they SW didn't just stumble across the Hand by accident and go, "Does this mean I'm the Wrath now?"

[DarkTergon]

If we use that logic, then there's really no point to arguing in favor of the stories maintaining any sort of consistency. Not that anyone here is, just that its faulty logic to just say "Sith happens :D" because its all fantasy. Treek would reign supreme if rules went out the window, clearly.

 

 

 

But the inq story does have consistency, they are the blood of kalig, powerful, etc, etc, becomes the commander (emperor) of a mighty alliance (Empire?) But you are denying that they'd ever get there if this was 'real', but it's set in the same universe as palp, who did the same thing. Do you not think palp would crush ash too?.

The whole point is, choice. You don't have to kill off anyone, but if you play the inq story out, as a 'palp' sith, he'd kill her for the what she did. The fact she's a romance option doesn't matter.

 

Your basically taking a dump on other peoples RP, because it doesn't coincide with yours.

 

Ehh, still teetering on a dark side dummy being the most reasonable reason to space her here. I get the perspective but any that aims to discard her lacks purpose besides satiating some unfufilled need to be a d*ck.

 

This quote basically says it all, it shows the contempt you have for other peoples roleplaying, and the choice they want or can pick, all because it's not what you want.

We could argue about this till the nerfs come home, but it's not going to change anything. I beleive, of all the INQ's companion, she should definatley have had a kill option. That's not going to change. And I doubt you'll see my point of view, so I'll just leave it at that. UNfortunately, what's done is done, they'll never go back and retrospectively change it. /shrug

[DarthCasus]

But the inq story does have consistency, they are the blood of kalig, powerful, etc, etc, becomes the commander (emperor) of a mighty alliance (Empire?) But you are denying that they'd ever get there if this was 'real', but it's set in the same universe as palp, who did the same thing. Do you not think palp would crush ash too?.

The whole point is, choice. You don't have to kill off anyone, but if you play the inq story out, as a 'palp' sith, he'd kill her for the what she did. The fact she's a romance option doesn't matter.

 

Your basically taking a dump on other peoples RP, because it doesn't coincide with yours.

 

...What? Quite the opposite. I'm in support of people's RP. I'm NOT in support of BioWare killing off another character to SUIT someone else's idea of RP without rationale. That's where my whole argument of rationality comes from, that it makes no sense for Inq to kill her in response to what she said or did. It wasn't even disrespect, she was proposing that you either respect her or don't and deal with the consequences (her leaving). Don't swing that stick at me, dawg. I've been supportive of all sorts of wild RP antics and ideas, this doesn't mesh.

 

We can ALL understand why people should be allowed to kill Quinn. Skadge. Tanno Vik. Rusk. Maybe even Doc. Now why should Ashara be on that list? Give me a reason.

 

This quote basically says it all, it shows the contempt you have for other peoples roleplaying, and the choice they want or can pick, all because it's not what you want.

We could argue about this till the nerfs come home, but it's not going to change anything. I beleive, of all the INQ's companion, she should definatley have had a kill option. That's not going to change. And I doubt you'll see my point of view, so I'll just leave it at that. UNfortunately, what's done is done, they'll never go back and retrospectively change it. /shrug

 

Then you're not trying to see my perspective. Either you're not trying to understand that killing off characters affects their inclusion going forward and the playerbase at large or you're willfully arguing in bad faith. That quote presents the only 'logical' reason to space her, i.e: you're RPing a Dark Side nut. Anyone with a working moral compass knows DS in this game is pure dumb evil. Mix in LS choices and you have a morally compromised lunatic. He/She literally acknowledges it. Here:

 

And while DS, my Nox is not a complete moron

 

It's a fair rationale for not liking Ashara, the way she presented your choices. It's also fair to not want to bring her, or to want to shock her or even have BioWare let us kill her, but only if you're aiming for RPing a DS dummy. That's as far as my defense of the want for the option would go but I'm completely opposed to killing off characters if BioWare continues to write them out almost entirely. That's not fair and completely pointless. Even the Vette/Torian decision had very very short lived shock. Why toss another character in the fire?

[eabevella]

I just replayed the SI story because of the double XP event and while my previous LS SI would let Ashara joins because I played her as building her own power base in the small scale, my new slightly insane SI didn't care about Ashara and would either mock and get rid of her or kill her after he got the ghost.

 

But I guess the time of killing original companions are long pass, it's kind of meaningless to add the kill option in later expansions simply because of the lost opportunity, ex: Quinn. If I can't kill him in the original class story, it made little story sense to kill him >5 years later. Unless there's story content added to make the kill option logical, ex: Kaliyo for her new "screw up" in kotfe.

[DarkTergon]

I just replayed the SI story because of the double XP event and while my previous LS SI would let Ashara joins because I played her as building her own power base in the small scale, my new slightly insane SI didn't care about Ashara and would either mock and get rid of her or kill her after he got the ghost.

 

But I guess the time of killing original companions are long pass, it's kind of meaningless to add the kill option in later expansions simply because of the lost opportunity, ex: Quinn. If I can't kill him in the original class story, it made little story sense to kill him >5 years later. Unless there's story content added to make the kill option logical, ex: Kaliyo for her new "screw up" in kotfe.

 

 

You can kill quinn because he betrays you again during iokath because you don't side with the empire

 

[eabevella]

You can kill quinn because he betrays you again during iokath because you don't side with the empire

 

I know. But it feels weird because if my character didn't kill him then, it makes no sense to kill him >5 years later. It feels like the kill option is there to compensate players who want to kill him (understandable), much like Kaliyo, but at least Kaliyo has a longer story/event to reignite my character's distrust for her.

[Goreshaga]

Then you're not trying to see my perspective. Either you're not trying to understand that killing off characters affects their inclusion going forward and the playerbase at large or you're willfully arguing in bad faith. That quote presents the only 'logical' reason to space her, i.e: you're RPing a Dark Side nut. Anyone with a working moral compass knows DS in this game is pure dumb evil. Mix in LS choices and you have a morally compromised lunatic. He/She literally acknowledges it. Here:

 

 

 

It's a fair rationale for not liking Ashara, the way she presented your choices. It's also fair to not want to bring her, or to want to shock her or even have BioWare let us kill her, but only if you're aiming for RPing a DS dummy. That's as far as my defense of the want for the option would go but I'm completely opposed to killing off characters if BioWare continues to write them out almost entirely. That's not fair and completely pointless. Even the Vette/Torian decision had very very short lived shock. Why toss another character in the fire?

Thing is, as Ashara only exists for SI, she wont have an important role to play anyways, just like all the companions who are locked behind class specific AA.

So, unlike the companions who came back via the main storyline, killing them off would NOT affect people who want to keep them alive.

 

Honnestly, if i actually had a choice, i'd just let Ashara on Taris for her to go back to the Jedi. She was the one who decided for some reason that she could not go back to them, even when playing a LS SI who killed her masters only because they attacked first.

Just like i'd let Skadge rot in his cell on Belsavis, or arrange for Vik to be kicked out of the army rather than taking him with me. I'd probably not take Xalek either actually. And all of these ones got a kill option, why is Ashara the only special one who can't be killed ? Especially considering how many [kill] options she was given on Taris that are in the end only fake kill options (i guess she was actually killable in beta, like Quinn, but that it was removed later)

It's actually a pity they didn't put the "beta" [kill] options back or even just a [reject] option when they changed the companions to be able to fill all roles.

 

As for what usefull things would Vette do, well idk, she's dead. I had no will to see her die, but it was her or Torian, and while the choice was really easy on my fem BH who romances him, the choice had to be different for my other characters. They chose Torian simply because as a warrior and a link with the Mandalorians, he was in the end more usefull than Vette on the battlefield (and well none of my mains romance Vette, so she was already at a disadvantage just for that).

Edited May 26, 2020 by Goreshaga

[ShieldProtection]

No ashara and you are forever friends,

[BelorfinSiana]

Kill Ashara?!

 

ONLY if you let my inquisitor marry her too!

[Ylliarus]

I do agree that Ashara's arc should have been handled differently. Unless you play a LS Sith Inquisitor, her attitude makes little sense.

 

Her more pragmatic side could have been preserved if she was written as a Darth Marr type of Sith. Firmly settled in the Dark Side of the Force, but with a distinct streak of pragmatism. It would have suited her perfectly and would have made her quite the imposing Sith, I believe. She could have been an interesting counterbalance to Dark Jaesa's chaotic evil nature, if Ashara had been a lawful evil sort.

 

It's a pity there is no option to truly make Ashara fall to the Dark Side. You can only make her taste the Dark Side but she backs away from it fairly swiftly and then the idea is never revisited again. It is truly a waste of a great potential in character development.

[rumpol]

Not really no. The Hand chose the SW to be the next Wrath, almost certainly at the direction of the Emperor. The SW didn't stumble into it, they were specifically chosen. Now it might be that the SW was chosen because they had a problem with Baras ... or it might just be they were chosen because they were powerful. Or both. Probably both. But they SW didn't just stumble across the Hand by accident and go, "Does this mean I'm the Wrath now?"

 

Yes, the Hand (Emperor) almost definitely chose the warrior because of his animosity and links to Baras. So yes, if Baras hadn't tried to kill him, he probably wouldn't have been chosen so he stumbled into becoming the Wrath. In exactly the same way the Inquisitor stumbled into being on the Dark Council because of Thanaton trying to kill him.

 

Besides which, earlier in the Inquisitor story, the inqs friendly Moff tells him that Thanaton has ascended to the Dark Council, the Inqusitor can make a comment which says that if he kills Thanaton he assumes his position. So your Inq was already making plans. During conversations with Ashara, you can tell her you are not yet in a position to affect change, she states but that is what you are striving for, to get into a position of power.

[wistarie]

I do agree that Ashara's arc should have been handled differently. Unless you play a LS Sith Inquisitor, her attitude makes little sense.

 

Her more pragmatic side could have been preserved if she was written as a Darth Marr type of Sith. Firmly settled in the Dark Side of the Force, but with a distinct streak of pragmatism. It would have suited her perfectly and would have made her quite the imposing Sith, I believe. She could have been an interesting counterbalance to Dark Jaesa's chaotic evil nature, if Ashara had been a lawful evil sort.

 

It's a pity there is no option to truly make Ashara fall to the Dark Side. You can only make her taste the Dark Side but she backs away from it fairly swiftly and then the idea is never revisited again. It is truly a waste of a great potential in character development.

 

Exactly my thoughts. It would be great to have this DS Ashara.

[DarkTergon]

I know. But it feels weird because if my character didn't kill him then, it makes no sense to kill him >5 years later. It feels like the kill option is there to compensate players who want to kill him (understandable), much like Kaliyo, but at least Kaliyo has a longer story/event to reignite my character's distrust for her.

 

To be honest, personally I think this kill option should have been left in from beta. But even in life, how many times can you forgive someone for doing the same bad stuff on you, before you stop talking to them. And as Sith, especially if you are DS, when someone pulls the same stuff twice like that, you are going to snap his neck.

[Goreshaga]

I do agree that Ashara's arc should have been handled differently. Unless you play a LS Sith Inquisitor, her attitude makes little sense.

 

Her more pragmatic side could have been preserved if she was written as a Darth Marr type of Sith. Firmly settled in the Dark Side of the Force, but with a distinct streak of pragmatism. It would have suited her perfectly and would have made her quite the imposing Sith, I believe. She could have been an interesting counterbalance to Dark Jaesa's chaotic evil nature, if Ashara had been a lawful evil sort.

 

It's a pity there is no option to truly make Ashara fall to the Dark Side. You can only make her taste the Dark Side but she backs away from it fairly swiftly and then the idea is never revisited again. It is truly a waste of a great potential in character development.

She'd probably have been a more interesting companion if handled this way.

As it is, she works only for LS SI who are quite loyal to the Empire and want to reforme it to make it better, which is quite restrictive.

If you play a powerhungry moronic DS lunatic "kill everything that stands in my way", she doesn't work at all and you can't even have your character acts "in character" while reuniting with her. If you play a "i want to watch the Empire burn" kind of SI, she doesn't work either.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Goreshaga

[DarthCasus]

Yes, the Hand (Emperor) almost definitely chose the warrior because of his animosity and links to Baras. So yes, if Baras hadn't tried to kill him, he probably wouldn't have been chosen so he stumbled into becoming the Wrath. In exactly the same way the Inquisitor stumbled into being on the Dark Council because of Thanaton trying to kill him.

 

Besides which, earlier in the Inquisitor story, the inqs friendly Moff tells him that Thanaton has ascended to the Dark Council, the Inqusitor can make a comment which says that if he kills Thanaton he assumes his position. So your Inq was already making plans. During conversations with Ashara, you can tell her you are not yet in a position to affect change, she states but that is what you are striving for, to get into a position of power.

 

Wrath's 'stumble' isn't like Inq's. At all. Wrath HAD their natural power, were selected pretty early in the story (end of chapter 1?), wasn't saved by anyone else's power and Wrath had a divine-like calling that they knew of. A goal that they knowingly accomplished and enjoyed the fruits of.

 

Inquisitor appears to find out about ascending to the DC right after Thanaton's death. If you don't believe me, here: https://youtu.be/4xPN2ixbl_Y?t=300

 

I don't recall the instance where the Inq supposes that they can take Thanaton's seat earlier but I can't say I don't believe you, the branched dialogue is pretty loose but all lead to the same places. And of course the Inq would say they're vying for power but if we pay attention to the story at hand, it was a constant struggle to sruvive while serving their master, trying to extract the ghosts or fighting Thanaton. The Inq never specifically focused on gaining power as per their own ambitions, it was a means to survive.

 

Wrath had choice. Revenge on Baras didn't make them the Wrath, they killed Baras, proving they were the Wrath and answering the calls of the Emperor (on Voss) and the Hands prior (I think as far back as Quesh?). If you and I show up to take an exam on the same day and when I pass, I say: "Great, now I can go on and be the head of _______" while you pass and say "Wait, I can be a head of ________?", there's a clear difference, no?

[Goreshaga]

Wrath's 'stumble' isn't like Inq's. At all. Wrath HAD their natural power, were selected pretty early in the story (end of chapter 1?), wasn't saved by anyone else's power and Wrath had a divine-like calling that they knew of. A goal that they knowingly accomplished and enjoyed the fruits of.

On the other hand, the SW would not have been appointed as the new Wrath if Scourge didn't run away with the JK, it's even possible that Scourge oppenly betraying the Emperor was what let Baras make his move in the first place. It was just convenient that the SW had a real motivation to take Baras down and was powerful enough to be a decent replacement for Scourge

[eabevella]

To be honest, personally I think this kill option should have been left in from beta. But even in life, how many times can you forgive someone for doing the same bad stuff on you, before you stop talking to them. And as Sith, especially if you are DS, when someone pulls the same stuff twice like that, you are going to snap his neck.

 

Too bad some people can't accept a choice is a choice. You actually convinced me. I won't be not that forgiving and I'm not a Sith lol

[Ner_idia]

I don't recall the instance where the Inq supposes that they can take Thanaton's seat earlier but I can't say I don't believe you, the branched dialogue is pretty loose but all lead to the same places. And of course the Inq would say they're vying for power but if we pay attention to the story at hand, it was a constant struggle to sruvive while serving their master, trying to extract the ghosts or fighting Thanaton. The Inq never specifically focused on gaining power as per their own ambitions, it was a means to survive.

 

Wrath had choice. Revenge on Baras didn't make them the Wrath, they killed Baras, proving they were the Wrath and answering the calls of the Emperor (on Voss) and the Hands prior (I think as far back as Quesh?). If you and I show up to take an exam on the same day and when I pass, I say: "Great, now I can go on and be the head of _______" while you pass and say "Wait, I can be a head of ________?", there's a clear difference, no?

 

It's during the first conversation (maybe the second) one with Moff Pyron that the subject of taking his Council seat comes up; but it's only a single dialogue choice out of the entirety and easy to overlook.

 

 

There's also a huge difference between Baras and Thanton. You're comparing apples and oranges, really

 

Baras more or less works his way up by getting others to do the dirty work for him. We never see him directly confront anyone until the very end of the Warrior story where he's forced into the fight. In fact, I can't recall a single reference to Baras actually engaging in combat.

 

Thanaton , on the other hand, is most definitely the opposite. Just to pick one example: when you're sent to take down Thanaton's base in Axial Park on Corellia, it's stated plainly that Thanaton took said base ALONE.

 

 

To get back to Ashara, there's only one instance at the beginning of SoR where we see Ashara attempting to use the Dark Side. The attempt is only somewhat successful, as she receives a vision of a few seconds in length. She's never shown or referred to as ever calling on the Dark Side; which is why I stand by my opinion that she's a light side oriented companion. No matter what the Inquisitor does, Ashara always insists that she's still a Jedi; and there's no way in the story or the conversation dialogues to remove her delusion.

[TGaP_Andrey]

Thanaton , on the other hand, is most definitely the opposite. Just to pick one example: when you're sent to take down Thanaton's base in Axial Park on Corellia, it's stated plainly that Thanaton took said base ALONE.

 

Is it really true? Are you sure, you 'member correctly? I just don't member hearing someone pointing that out in the story.

I had a very big problem with RPing my Sith Sorcerer in a game that is all about frontline combat - it didn't really seem to me adequate for someone in a ceremonial robe and with a limited lightsaber proficiency to actually engage enemy troops and all that.

But if what you saying is true than it's a big relief to me for sure!

Edited May 26, 2020 by TGaP_Andrey

[rumpol]

Revenge on Baras most definitely made the Warrior the Wrath. It was the carrot that was dangled by the Hand in front of the Warrior on Quesh to entice him to take up the role.

 

The Emperor wanted Baras gone, the Warrior was the perfect foil due to his relationship with Baras to take him down. He wasn't chosen because of any special power, he was chosen specifically because of this past relationship. The Inquisitor is the more proficient in the force. You could even argue that Baras successfully manipulating the Warrior is also one thing that attracted the Emperor to him. He knew the Warrior was someone he could control, bearing in mind what happened with Scourge.

 

Also, the Warrior is only provisionally accepted by the Dark Council. Darth Marr tells the Warrior they will only accept him whilst his goals align with theirs. Even Lana tells the Warrior that the Council will not tolerate him going after one of their own. The Inquisitor is accepted without these conditions. They recognise his power and merits.

 

The Warrior was the more privileged one. He was given the best of everything as he trained whilst the Inq had to fight tooth and nail against a Overseer who tried his best to get him killed.

 

We do hear of instances where Baras has engaged in past combat. Jaesa's master speaks of fighting him as does the Jedi who holocalls him on Hoth, both instances Baras seems to have come off worst.

 

As for the Inq not being any good at martial combat, this is rubbish. Inq codex entry: "Inquisitors overwhelm their targets with Force Lightning and lightsabers alike"

Edited May 27, 2020 by rumpol

[rumpol]

To get back to Ashara, there's only one instance at the beginning of SoR where we see Ashara attempting to use the Dark Side. The attempt is only somewhat successful, as she receives a vision of a few seconds in length. She's never shown or referred to as ever calling on the Dark Side; which is why I stand by my opinion that she's a light side oriented companion. No matter what the Inquisitor does, Ashara always insists that she's still a Jedi; and there's no way in the story or the conversation dialogues to remove her delusion.

 

Again, you see Ashara communing with the Dark Side when you encounter her again on Voss. Ashara even says during the class campaign that she doesn't care that the Jedi don't see her as one of theirs:

 

 

Ashara most definitely accepts she isn't a Jedi. If you watch the entirety of the video it shows you she even questions whether it was the right thing for her to even enter the order.

 

Her mail to a romanced Inq after he ends up as a Popsicle says this:

 

"The Sith and Jedi are helpless against this enemy. I’ve left them all behind. I never belonged to those failed orders, no more than you did. We were always something special. Now it’s just me."

 

I dont agree she is light orientated. She is just practical and pragmatic like Marr and Lana. She is the most grey of all the companions,

Edited May 27, 2020 by rumpol

[TGaP_Andrey]

As for the Inq not being any good at martial combat, this is rubbish. Inq codex entry: "Inquisitors overwhelm their targets with Force Lightning and lightsabers alike"

You do realize I was asking about Sorcerers specifically and codex entry you quoted was written back in the times when there was an actual Inquisitor class (i.e. it's just about game mechanics, not an actual lore and how it is in a galaxy far, far away) which also was, in fact, just a precursor to Assassin, definitely a much more combat-orientied class?