Conquest lost its shape and purpose

[OlBuzzard]

That's strange, I used those links on the positive thread and it worked but not here. Oh I know why this is not a positive thread lol.

 

Let's try them again

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9829500#edit9829500

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9828380#edit9828380

 

Got it !!

 

They are working just fine ! ( Don't ask what the difference is. Kind of funny in a way !! )

Edited May 6, 2020 by OlBuzzard

[DarkTergon]

My last post in this thread, and probably the last in this forum, it's seems I'm being targetted by someone with a grudge, as we're not allowed to talk about actions, I can't explain, but I'm sure you all know. Over the last 8 years I've tried to help people, add humour to posts, and have argued with people. Such is life. Most of you have been a great laugh, and even when we didn't agree, we still kept it civil. So many good people have stopped posting, and what we're left with is...well I can't say...... Good luck all, take care, and stay safe.

[Qouivandes]

I dont post much anymore either..../target self; /lookleft

[robertthebard]

Well now, that most certainly is the case now. Earning conquest is about as exciting or special or relevant as earning legacy xp. When it comes to how it used to be for past 18 months or so.. well, what gave conquest, how much and how efficiently speaks against your suggestions here, not mine. Conquest encouraged and rewarded those who wanted to do stuff with and/or against other people. It rewrded those who wanted to deal with MMO bits of the game. Since MMO bits of the game need other people to work, said aspects of the game were better for it. (queues) Now stuff that requires grouping or queuing gets to compete with some extremely straightforward stuff you do solo..or by sending your companion to do some missions. So yeah, now "scope of conquest" truly is broader than my premise. So broad there is no shape or form or a picture anymore. It is as meaningful as legaxy xp.

 

Recalibrating an amplifier is now more rewarding than losing a Warzone match.

 

The problem being, of course, that I've made my conquest for months at a time w/out ever setting foot in group content, before these changes. In fact, I haven't played since these went live. I made it on one character on accident once, not realizing how it had been morphed back then, by simply doing daily space missions farming up Comms. So I'm not sure what you're basing your analyses of conquest on?

[xordevoreaux]

So I'm not sure what you're basing your analyses of conquest on?

At this point, no one does, demonstrably and least of all the OP.

Inconsistency, conflation, selective attention, and falsehoods don't make clear argumentative points.

 

His "analysis" has been roundly deconstructed by many responses from many players.

Unfortunately, we won't see the end of his solitary campaign any time soon.

 

The best the rest of us can do is impress upon the devs that his is not the only voice in this debate. The many counter arguments have raised profound disagreement with practically everything he's posted, and the devs no doubt have brought that into consideration as they move toward 6.2.x.

 

Will we see nerfs and certain activities disappear because of this person? Yes. That's just how the EA pendulum swings.

 

But this particular time, I have a feeling the rest of us have struck a strong and large enough nail into the backboard of the clock that the pendulum won't swing all the way back to where it was.

Edited May 7, 2020 by xordevoreaux

[DarkestMicheal]

At this point, no one does, demonstrably and least of all the OP.

Inconsistency, conflation, selective attention, and falsehoods don't make clear argumentative points.

 

His "analysis" has been roundly deconstructed by many responses from many players.

Unfortunately, we won't see the end of his solitary campaign any time soon.

 

 

Which is one of the reasons most people have stopped commenting. Mods have given warnings and banned people for comments, that were in no way nearly as bad as his, but yet he still continues. No idea how he's getting away with it. One was warned because of a light hearted poem, a poem to bring a little humour in to the thread, and try to diffuse some of the negativity. They seem to be on a quest to drive out all the good people and leave the rest here, why I don't know. Anyway another reason I stopped commenting, is because I say what's on my mind, and some people don't like to hear the truth.

 

EDIT: Would just like to add, using the 'logic' of the OP. I decided to concentrate on my favorite aspect of the game, the class missions. I didn't get my 50K conquest in ten minutes, and in fact took a good bit longer, (Just relying on points for CQ class objective) I'm absolutely horrified and disgusted, I demand that the points for class missions be increased by 400 %, so I can focus solely on my favorite aspect........

Edited May 7, 2020 by DarkestMicheal

[robertthebard]

At this point, no one does, demonstrably and least of all the OP.

Inconsistency, conflation, selective attention, and falsehoods don't make clear argumentative points.

 

His "analysis" has been roundly deconstructed by many responses from many players.

Unfortunately, we won't see the end of his solitary campaign any time soon.

 

The best the rest of us can do is impress upon the devs that his is not the only voice in this debate. The many counter arguments have raised profound disagreement with practically everything he's posted, and the devs no doubt have brought that into consideration as they move toward 6.2.x.

 

Will we see nerfs and certain activities disappear because of this person? Yes. That's just how the EA pendulum swings.

 

But this particular time, I have a feeling the rest of us have struck a strong and large enough nail into the backboard of the clock that the pendulum won't swing all the way back to where it was.

 

I've been of the considered opinion that they dropped the ball on Conquest from the very beginning. Controlling sectors should have been something a couple of guilds had to compete over, via PvP. I've seen something similar in a 20 year old Korean Grinder where we fought over dungeons every weekend, and whoever won got control, and could collect "taxes" on the dungeon, until they lost it. It would have made Conquest mean something, and added much needed relevance to PvP.

 

That said, I was downloading the latest patches I'd missed when I posted that other post, and have since played for a while, and I didn't make my Conquest in 10 minutes either. It's really not a good time to run tests on how it's going to work, however, since it's double everything month.

[Stradlin]

The problem being, of course, that I've made my conquest for months at a time w/out ever setting foot in group content, before these changes. In fact, I haven't played since these went live. I made it on one character on accident once, not realizing how it had been morphed back then, by simply doing daily space missions farming up Comms. So I'm not sure what you're basing your analyses of conquest on?

 

It isn't a problem at all. It demonstrated what I've been saying all along - Conquest has always been inclusive. You could reach your target just fine by soloing. Ever since XP->Conq became a thing. you could olay very few characters a week, and you could reach the target without even noticing. Just that it was MUCH slower than it is now.

 

If you wanted to actually pursue conquest dings and bring in larger hauls, then you had to pay some attention to the objectives. Reaching target on a single character made a very natural daily adventure if you will. You returned to the TOR where you make around 400% more Conquest than you used to - Assuming you are fine with doing nothing but planetary missions. These give you sick conquest. Nothing else has been included to this massive buff.

 

It's really not a good time to run tests on how it's going to work, however, since it's double everything month.

Since it is double-everything-, scales involved haven't shifted. You can easily compare planetary missions to pvp, GSF or FPs for example. Whatever diminishing happens when double xp is over happens across the content.

Planetary heroic missions absolutely can bring you to conq target in 10 mins now. If you mix it with fleet janitor stuff, then it is even less. Somebody doing content involving other people hasn't even finished their first FP..or pvp match..or GSF match in that 10 mins.

 

Like earning sick conquest? Do planetary missions. It is your only option now. Everything else has been excluded from this inclusive 400% conquest buff.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Stradlin

[robertthebard]

It isn't a problem at all. It demonstrated what I've been saying all along - Conquest has always been inclusive. You could reach your target just fine by soloing. Play very few characters a week, and you could reach the target without noticing.

 

If you wanted to actually pursue conquest dings and bring largher hauls, then you had to pay some attention to the objectives. Reaching target on a single character made a very natural daily adventure if you will. You returned to the TOR where you make around 400% more Conquest than you used to - Assuming you are fine with doing nothing but planetary missions. These give you sick conquest. Nothing else has been included to this massive buff.

 

This would be a compelling argument, if I hadn't just logged out of the game an hour or so ago, and looked at the Conquest pane. Daily Repeatable objectives paying 10K each, across the board. Heroics on planets are going to get a boost if said planet is included this week, for one. The slayer counts will add up, however, that's no different from what it was before, at least in how it works. I made Conquest this morning on one toon, doing the daily PvE space missions, but that's not a new thing. I've done that more times than I can count since it was changed to awarded xp counting towards Conquest.

[Stradlin]

This would be a compelling argument, if I hadn't just logged out of the game an hour or so ago, and looked at the Conquest pane. Daily Repeatable objectives paying 10K each, across the board. Heroics on planets are going to get a boost if said planet is included this week, for one. The slayer counts will add up, however, that's no different from what it was before, at least in how it works. I made Conquest this morning on one toon, doing the daily PvE space missions, but that's not a new thing. I've done that more times than I can count since it was changed to awarded xp counting towards Conquest.

 

 

 

For three weeks now, you've had all the planets available as a conq objective. Each is giving an incredibly generous daily mission dings. I guess 13 planets by default. Each of these has the 2 x slayers available. Even the slayer missions are kinda..optional. Example. Begin your day by entering rock and a hard place. Go in with 0 conquest. Click a computer and walk out. 90 seconds of your life. That single mouse click completed you three missions. You now have something like 21-24k conquest for 90 seconds of work.

 

It doesn't really slow down either. I timed things a bit. tank specced Jugg in tanking gear. Took me 10 mins 6 seconds to go from 2k conq to 56k. All of this exclusively from planetary missions.

 

 

There are plenty of ways in game to earn conq at a rate you consider pretty good, if you look at what was " pretty good" 3 weeks back. All of these ways utterly pale in comparsion to soloable mission running now. See how long it takes you to make 54k conq doing ANY content that requiores other people to happen.

 

One single person can reach GUILD'S low yield target with 2-3 hours of gameplay in a week. Assuming that person scatters it nice and even across all 7 days. And, ofc, assuming that person spends all of that time gifting companions and running planetary missions.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Stradlin

[Darev]

 

One single person can reach GUILD'S low yield target with 2-3 hours of gameplay in a week. Assuming that person scatters it nice and even across all 7 days. And, ofc, assuming that person spends all of that time gifting companions and running planetary missions.

 

 

You're not wrong.

The issue is, however, most people see that as a bonus, especially compared to the previous system.

 

I know I certainly do.

 

No matter how many times you post, or what type of debate you try to start, or shift to, you're not changing people's minds.

[robertthebard]

For three weeks now, you've had all the planets available as a conq objective. Each is giving an incredibly generous daily mission dings. I guess 13 planets by default. Each of these has the 2 x slayers available. Even the slayer missions are kinda..optional. Example. Begin your day by entering rock and a hard place. Go in with 0 conquest. Click a computer and walk out. 90 seconds of your life. That single mouse click completed you three missions. You now have something like 21-24k conquest for 90 seconds of work.

 

It doesn't really slow down either. I timed things a bit. tank specced Jugg in tanking gear. Took me 10 mins 6 seconds to go from 2k conq to 56k. All of this exclusively from planetary missions.

 

 

There are plenty of ways in game to earn conq at a rate you consider pretty good, if you look at what was " pretty good" 3 weeks back. All of these ways utterly pale in comparsion to soloable mission running now. See how long it takes you to make 54k conq doing ANY content that requiores other people to happen.

 

One single person can reach GUILD'S low yield target with 2-3 hours of gameplay in a week. Assuming that person scatters it nice and even across all 7 days. And, ofc, assuming that person spends all of that time gifting companions and running planetary missions.

 

...and? Seriously, what's the issue? Conquest means absolutely nothing. Being on the leaderboard means absolutely nothing. Being in the top guild, or guild-less means absolutely nothing. "But someone can get it faster this way than that way"? So what? So, last January, how many times did my making Conquest stop you from making yours? What's that you say, I can't stop you from making your goal? Then why are we here discussing how someone can make it? Actually, scrub that, why are we here discussing how anyone can make it? Is that the issue? That anyone can make it if they put a bit of effort into it? Which brings me back to "What's the issue?", because I'm not seeing one.

[Stradlin]

...and? Seriously, what's the issue?

 

 

"It would be nice if other activties besides planetary missions gave great conquest" < - Can you agree with this?

 

Content that needs no other people to happen gives great conquest. In fact, lots of conquest fast is now something that is exclusive to soloable content. Content that requires people to happen gives bad conques by comparsion. If you zoom out from " me and what I do" can you see no ways this situation could be an issue to the game as a whole?

 

Whatever gives great conquest fast has lots of gravity - people are drawn to that content. Soloable heroics are 400% more conquest compared to what people got before. This is a huge reward that elevates the content and in literal sesne makes it more rewarding. iSo people are drawn to doing soloable heroics. Meanwhile, content that requires otrher people to even happen happens less. None of the content that requires other people has any of that gravity now. Queue pools and grp finder get emptier. Things like ranked pvp matches, GSF matches, lowbie warzones and even Ops happen less and less. Times (hours far removed from server peak) that these queues are completely dead on your server grows longer and longer.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Stradlin

[DarthAlastor]

Everything happens just the same way it happened before. When you're in a group you don't count as the whole group you count as yourself just as if you are playing by yourself and again as has been said multiple times over and over and over again. The amount of conquest any one person gains is meaningless because it doesn't affect anyone else. Any large guild that has 100 people on at any given time will always beat a smaller guild with 10 people online just because of the difference in numbers. How a person gets that conquest is entirely up to them and not for you to decide what they can and can't do

[Stradlin]

You're not wrong.

The issue is, however, most people see that as a bonus, especially compared to the previous system.

 

I know I certainly do.

 

 

Check the newly tweaked OP and in particular, stuff under the "What this new conq system does to guilds?" headline.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Stradlin

[Jdast]

Check the newly tweaked OP and in particular, stuff under the "What this new conq system does to guilds?" headline.

 

I positively love the makeover and what you've done with this place. Oh, and the new hairdo is absolutely fffffaaaabbbbuuuullllooouuussss.

 

<<raises glass>>

 

Dasty

Edited May 7, 2020 by Jdast

[Toraak]

Great job with the 6.1.1 conquest rework. Ever since this has gone live I've seen nothing but extremely positive comments about how conquest is in game in any guild chat, fleet, or discord I'm in. Please do not listen to the couple of people on this forums that are a very loud vocal minority. This is one of the best patches I can remember.

 

Good job BW for an incredible rework of conquest.

[casirabit]

Great job with the 6.1.1 conquest rework. Ever since this has gone live I've seen nothing but extremely positive comments about how conquest is in game in any guild chat, fleet, or discord I'm in. Please do not listen to the couple of people on this forums that are a very loud vocal minority. This is one of the best patches I can remember.

 

Good job BW for an incredible rework of conquest.

 

/agreed and signed.

[Darev]

Check the newly tweaked OP and in particular, stuff under the "What this new conq system does to guilds?" headline.

 

Ok. Here are your three classifications for guilds

 

- Literal one man guild.

- Really small guild of close friends. Like 5-7 people.

- Large small guilds..and almost everything beyond

 

 

1) All the new system does is make it easier for 1 person to get to the 500k mark, which allows the player to (still) slowly, but faster than before, collect flagship rewards to open up additional rooms. I see ZERO downside to this.

 

2) The new system allows this level of guild to reach for the 2 million mark, or the 5 million mark, and depending on the play time invested, reach it pretty easily. Again...ZERO downside for the players of this type of guild. (which is what I consider mine to be now, having "graduated" from the mostly single player pure vanity guild)

 

3) Doesn't really change anything here either. Success in conquest as ALWAYS about which guilds have the highest number of active toons. Whether it's one player with 50 alts who can play 24/7 due to any number of possible real life circumstances...or a guild with 50 different people who play the same number of hours spread out...vs the third guild with 50 different players all playing at the same time....the most "activity hours" per week will win conquest. That's been that way since conquest started. the only *possible* exception was old school crafting weeks where people could plan, weeks or months in advance, to crank out 1000's of invasion forces with all their alts and just print conquest points. No real change at the end of the week here either...just more points on the scoreboard.

 

 

 

Look, it seems to me your argument is based on differences in playstyle.

"Why should some player, logging in for 10 minutes a day, get more points than me, playing 30 minutes a day doing different stuff? Why does *MY* stuff count for less?

 

Let me take a crack at answering that for you, point blank.

EA knows they have your $. You play so many hours a week and they know it. They aren't as interested in YOU as they are the player who logs in a little bit and really doesn't get anything out of it. So they give them new stuff to make them feel special, hoping they'll play some more. Maybe that's what happens. Now maybe those players, who are playing more, spend money in the Cartel Market. Maybe they subscribe. Maybe both.

 

EA just got extra real world money from THEM.

You...no extra money, just the subscription (since you can post here) that you were going to do anyway.

 

They have WAY more happy customers, regarding conquest, than they did two months ago.

 

Heck, I even, briefly, thought about activating a 3rd account specifically to speed up getting my guild to level 64 and unlocking ALL of the perks.

I haven't

But the point is, it crossed my mind.

 

Because of these conquest changes.

[Stradlin]

Ok. Here are your three classifications for guilds

 

3) Success in conquest as ALWAYS about which guilds have the highest number of active toons. Whether it's one player with 50 alts who can play 24/7 due to any number of possible real life circumstances...or a guild with 50 different people who play the same number of hours spread out...vs the third guild with 50 different players all playing at the same time....the most "activity hours" per week will win conquest. That's been that way since conquest started.

 

 

Boldened bit is where you took bit of a wrong turn. I'm not talking about those 6-7 guilds on your server who can consistently fight for winning planets. H,M and L yield targets getting shattered didn't affect them that much. - they were knocking it out of the park already. I'm talking about all those guilds to whom reaching high yield conquest target was the " victory" each week. Guilds that would make something between 5-10 millions or so under the previous ssytem. For thousands of people in all these guilds, ensuring guild reached the target was a thing. Chasing and reachin for it was rewarding, exciting, annoying, interesting, frustrating, lame, fun.. Depending from whom you ask. It was something to chase and keep track of. Now, as a pursuit, it is nothing for thousands of people in medium sized* (or " small large" guilds) If a guild made something like 7 or 10 million a week previously, they reach conq target in 20-36 hours now. The pursuit isn¨t there anymore. All these people in all these guilds lost weekly pursuits and long term goals.

 

Look, it seems to me your argument is based on differences in playstyle.

"Why should some player, logging in for 10 minutes a day, get more points than me, playing 30 minutes a day doing different stuff? Why does *MY* stuff count for less?

Yes.

...Just that it is real easy to speak bit more broadly here. It isn't just about MY playstyle. It is about soloable stuff that needs no other ppl vs content that needs other ppl to even happen. Ctrl-F "gravity" from OP for more on this.

 

 

 

Let me take a crack at answering that for you, point blank.

EA knows they have your $. You play so many hours a week and they know it. They aren't as interested in YOU as they are the player who logs in a little bit and really doesn't get anything out of it. So they give them new stuff to make them feel special, hoping they'll play some more. Maybe that's what happens. Now maybe those players, who are playing more, spend money in the Cartel Market. Maybe they subscribe. Maybe both.

 

EA just got extra real world money from THEM.

You...no extra money, just the subscription (since you can post here) that you were going to do anyway.

 

Its just that Conq. isn't a limited natural resource EA needs to mine from literal physical mines in Southern Africa and then proceed to distribute to players as they see fit and useful. Latest patch clearly shows they've completely given up any care and control over how much conq players make. No target, guild or character, is much of a thing anymore. That particular layer has been erased for now. So why not ensure different content is equally valid as a source of conq? Actually, screw that. It don¨'t even have to be " equally valid". Even SAME BALLPARK would be so great.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Stradlin

[robertthebard]

"It would be nice if other activties besides planetary missions gave great conquest" < - Can you agree with this?

 

Content that needs no other people to happen gives great conquest. In fact, lots of conquest fast is now something that is exclusive to soloable content. Content that requires people to happen gives bad conques by comparsion. If you zoom out from " me and what I do" can you see no ways this situation could be an issue to the game as a whole?

 

Whatever gives great conquest fast has lots of gravity - people are drawn to that content. Soloable heroics are 400% more conquest compared to what people got before. This is a huge reward that elevates the content and in literal sesne makes it more rewarding. iSo people are drawn to doing soloable heroics. Meanwhile, content that requires otrher people to even happen happens less. None of the content that requires other people has any of that gravity now. Queue pools and grp finder get emptier. Things like ranked pvp matches, GSF matches, lowbie warzones and even Ops happen less and less. Times (hours far removed from server peak) that these queues are completely dead on your server grows longer and longer.

 

It's irrelevant. Just like who owns what sectors, or if No Guild owns it. Nothing you've pointed to stops guilds or players from reaching their goals. There is no "Nobody can make any progress on their Conquest after x guilds/players make their Conquest" point, and so, it's irrelevant. It just doesn't matter.

[Darev]

... I'm talking about all those guilds to whom reaching high yield conquest target was the " victory" each week. Guilds that would make something between 5-10 millions or so under the previous ssytem. For thousands of people in all these guilds, ensuring guild reached the target was a thing. It was rewarding, exciting, annoying, interesting, frustrating, lame, fun.. Depending from whom you ask. It was something to chase and keep track of. Now, as a pursuit, it is nothing for thousands of people in medium sized* (or " small large" guilds) If a guild made something like 7 or 10 million a week previously, they reach conq target in 20-36 hours now. The pursuit isn¨t there anymore. All these people in all these guilds lost weekly pursuits and long term goals.

 

There's no way you can know that. My bet is that if there were any guilds, of any size, that were reaching 90% of their weekly goal, consistently, they moved down to the next lower invasion target. I can't know that for certain, but I know that it's something I would do. For me, conquest was about the "Challenge" exactly ONE time several years ago.

Back on POT5. I won't go in to the story, it's buried in my post history if you want to try to search for it, but I came "THIS" close to beating a guild one week, all by myself. In the end I didn't win, but it was the most fun I'd had in a long time.

That type of feeling, in my mind, is impossible in any conquest system since. Now it is 100% about which guild has the most active play hours from the most active users. It is strictly a numbers game.

90% to goal each week, lower your target, or recruit...have to do something to get the rewards out of it.

 

Now it's so easy, you can keep your private vanity guild if you want and get your reward too.

 

Sorry you don't like the point distribution changes, and the additional objectives.

As someone who has tried to keep a few "forum causes" going in the past, and in a few cases I had more visible supporters than you seem to here...it doesn't change.

 

Virtually every "major" change to conquest (and a couple other topics) I've avidly posted on.

The devs are going to do what the devs are going to do. And "IF" they feel like making any alterations, it will take 6-12 months.

That's not a prediction, it's a history lesson.

[OlBuzzard]

Great job with the 6.1.1 conquest rework. Ever since this has gone live I've seen nothing but extremely positive comments about how conquest is in game in any guild chat, fleet, or discord I'm in. Please do not listen to the couple of people on this forums that are a very loud vocal minority. This is one of the best patches I can remember.

 

Good job BW for an incredible rework of conquest.

 

 

 

/agreed and signed.

 

YUP !! Pretty well sums it up !

 

Now then …. if we can just get that space station SH … (or that new class I'd love to see) we'll be in business !!!

 

What ??? did you really think I'd completely give up on those two ???

 

:D:D

 

OH ! don't forget to squash a few bugs along the way while you're at it !!

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by OlBuzzard

[casirabit]

YUP !! Pretty well sums it up !

 

Now then …. if we can just get that space station SH … (or that new class I'd love to see) we'll be in business !!!

 

What ??? did you really think I'd completely give up on those two ???

 

:D:D

 

OH ! don't forget to squash a few bugs along the way while you're at it !!

 

 

Lol, No I didn't think you give up on those and just for the record I hope you get those. The new class may be interesting. As far as a new stronghold space station, I might enjoy that provided: There is no fleet chat on that stronghold. It is bad enough to have the DK chat in my DK stronghold, p.

[OlBuzzard]

Lol, No I didn't think you give up on those and just for the record I hope you get those. The new class may be interesting. As far as a new stronghold space station, I might enjoy that provided: There is no fleet chat on that stronghold. It is bad enough to have the DK chat in my DK stronghold, p.

 

I heard that !!

 

OY VEY !!

 

Although I must confess … if we got the station at all that in and of it self would be huge. I would like to see a really super nice observation deck with a breath taking view of space ….

 

(if the idea gets that far).

 

;)