The Elephant in the Room

[Fellow-Canadian]

PT did get some improvements in 6.0 that did noticeably increase their life, but they are still the class with the worst survivability in the game. All they got in the current meta is really good damage, so being able to outlast an opponent isn't as critical.

 

I figure playing a pt is going to be the same as an operative. The average players won't make it work but really good players are scary as hell.

[RACATW]

Ok, so PT is a semi decent threat now in the hands of a top player?

 

That's great I guess. Still easy to focus down though, so there's not really a problem.

 

 

So are you going on the record predicting that pyro pts are going to dominate solo ranked and get high ratings? Because that's the real question, not whether they can get 100k hits.

 

Agreed, I'm pressing x to doubt here. When are we going to see some PT rerolls? It'll be pretty easy to focus them down, nice change from sniper, merc and stealth out that's for sure.

Edited December 1, 2019 by RACATW

[alexsamma]

Ok, so PT is a semi decent threat now in the hands of a top player?

 

That's great I guess. Still easy to focus down though, so there's not really a problem.

 

 

How you could read this thread and come to this conclusion is impressive.

 

The whole point of this thread, and the supporting clips that more than one individual has linked (including the amazing pyro clicking god Junkie himself) is that this set bonus is brain dead and retarded (translation: low skill).

 

Two notes:

-Neither spec is easy to focus down, they both have heavy DR abilities on extremely low cool-downs (providing that the pt is being hit) that they can cycle... power yield's addition insures that a PT will almost always have a cool-down available (note: AP is much easier to burn through than pyro due to how strong kolto DR is)

-Solo ranked is probably the worst environment to gauge how strong/OP a class/spec/set bonus/tactical is... there are way to many variables that can affect the out come; for example, concealment OP is broken in all dps solo ranked matches, but their face roll burst combo and strong off healing is easy to counter in a trinity match up so they are simply "good/decent" in trinity matches. Pyro PT is going to fall in a similar boat as concealment OP in that it will dominate in melee heavy and trinity matches, but in triple/quad dps matches it may (depending on comp) not fair as well as more utility laden classes/specs.

Edited December 1, 2019 by alexsamma

[JediMasterAlex]

Two notes:

-Neither spec is easy to focus down, they both have heavy DR abilities on extremely low cool-downs (providing that the pt is being hit) that they can cycle... power yield's addition insures that a PT will almost always have a cool-down available (note: AP is much easier to burn through than pyro due to how strong kolto DR is)

 

uh, lol?

 

-Solo ranked is probably the worst environment to gauge how strong/OP a class/spec/set bonus/tactical is... there are way to many variables that can affect the out come; for example, concealment OP is broken in all dps solo ranked matches, but their face roll burst combo and strong off healing is easy to counter in a trinity match up so they are simply "good/decent" in trinity matches. Pyro PT is going to fall in a similar boat as concealment OP in that it will dominate in melee heavy and trinity matches, but in triple/quad dps matches it may (depending on comp) not fair as well as more utility laden classes/specs.

 

Solo ranked is the only endgame pvp that matters, because group ranked is dead. Unless you want to use regs, you are stuck with solos.

[RACATW]

How you could read this thread and come to this conclusion is impressive.

 

The whole point of this thread, and the supporting clips that more than one individual has linked (including the amazing pyro clicking god Junkie himself) is that this set bonus is brain dead and retarded (translation: low skill).

 

Two notes:

-Neither spec is easy to focus down, they both have heavy DR abilities on extremely low cool-downs (providing that the pt is being hit) that they can cycle... power yield's addition insures that a PT will almost always have a cool-down available (note: AP is much easier to burn through than pyro due to how strong kolto DR is)

-Solo ranked is probably the worst environment to gauge how strong/OP a class/spec/set bonus/tactical is... there are way to many variables that can affect the out come; for example, concealment OP is broken in all dps solo ranked matches, but their face roll burst combo and strong off healing is easy to counter in a trinity match up so they are simply "good/decent" in trinity matches. Pyro PT is going to fall in a similar boat as concealment OP in that it will dominate in melee heavy and trinity matches, but in triple/quad dps matches it may (depending on comp) not fair as well as more utility laden classes/specs.

 

Alright, well if you want to watch his twitch you'll see those clips are the 'perfect' scenarios. Normally he gets focused down really hard, really fast. And it doesn't matter if he has a guard and healer.

 

 

Bottom line, not FOTM material. More like glass cannon or one trick pony.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/515286382

Edited December 1, 2019 by RACATW

[alexsamma]

Alright, well if you want to watch his twitch you'll see those clips are the 'perfect' scenarios. Normally he gets focused down really hard, really fast. And it doesn't matter if he has a guard and healer.

 

 

Bottom line, not FOTM material. More like glass cannon or one trick pony.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/515286382

 

PT was a glass cannon in 5.0, it is not a "glass cannon" in 6.0...

 

I'm not sure which part of Junkie's stream you are trying to reference, the first few matches are literally junkie face tanking quad dps solos and not getting instantly deleted like a "glass" cannon should in that situation...

[alexsamma]

uh, lol?

 

 

 

Solo ranked is the only endgame pvp that matters, because group ranked is dead. Unless you want to use regs, you are stuck with solos.

 

Solos are end game huh, you mean the mode that barely pops on either NA server and is often filled with trolls on DM during the regular season.... let's not talk about the fact that with how terrible the average player is combined with the RNG nature of match making means that most solos are decided the moment the players load in.

 

The simple fact is that neither team or solo ranked is healthy in the current game, but that doesn't change the fact that there is simply too many variables in solo ranked for the devs to truly balance anything for solos.

Edited December 1, 2019 by alexsamma

[RACATW]

PT was a glass cannon in 5.0, it is not a "glass cannon" in 6.0...

 

I'm not sure which part of Junkie's stream you are trying to reference, the first few matches are literally junkie face tanking quad dps solos and not getting instantly deleted like a "glass" cannon should in that situation...

 

He lost basically every round b/c he was playing pt. Anyway, reroll to pt and amuse us all, alright? If its not a glass cannon anymore.

 

I can't wait to see it dominate SR and facetank everybody.

Edited December 1, 2019 by RACATW

[TrixxieTriss]

Can't pull or leap an entrenched sniper, and if you don't take the utilities, hydraulics isn't very fast. Plus, you can't assume that the people you're facing are brain dead. Maybe if you're playing voidstar and in a clump of 6 people you can do massive, broken amounts of damage, but in ranked, if you're chasing a decent sorc around, you're not going to kill them in 1 gcd. And again, their whole team is going to be tunneling you, so it's not like chasing is even really an option.

 

Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. If there are all sorts of pyro pts getting high ratings early in the season, I'll happily eat my words here.

 

That is literally 1 class out of 8. You can’t base your whole assessment on one class. What bout the other 7?

[NateCrazy]

He lost basically every round b/c he was playing pt. Anyway, reroll to pt and amuse us all, alright? If its not a glass cannon anymore.

 

I can't wait to see it dominate SR and facetank everybody.

 

This statement exactly!

 

if PT is so OP now play it and dominate and show everybody. You will do one ranked match and go.. yeah that was not fun and give up!

 

they are still squishy as all hell and go down faster then any other class, this ability rarely goes off to full capability as its easy to avoid and shut it down.

 

 

its a joke we finally get something good after being stomped on for years and the call to nerf them comes out. We would trade this clunky offensive ability we didnt even need for half of every other classes DCD capabilities in a heartbeat, Then you may actually have something to cry about.

[Csjbo]

Just because Pyro PT's are unlikely to become FOTM in SR because of their defensive deficiencies does not mean that the Meteor Brawler set bonus and the Superheated Fuel tactical shouldn't be looked into by the devs. Its synergy is too strong ATM.

[JediMasterAlex]

That is literally 1 class out of 8. You can’t base your whole assessment on one class. What bout the other 7?

 

I said:

I can see it being good against sins and ops, but what are you going to do against kiting snipers and sorcs, for example?

 

Then Kuzain said:

I mean, PTs have the best chasing in the game. Pull, Leap, and Hydraulics. Plus being able to click off the buff to force the explosion sooner rather than latter? All the PT needs is 1gcd while its on top of you, no matter what class.

 

And that's what I was directly responding to, because they implied that PTs wouldn't have a problem chasing and killing kiting snipers and sorcs.

 

Just because Pyro PT's are unlikely to become FOTM in SR because of their defensive deficiencies does not mean that the Meteor Brawler set bonus and the Superheated Fuel tactical shouldn't be looked into by the devs. Its synergy is too strong ATM.

 

Fair point, but at the end of the day, abilities are just a means to an end. How they work in the actual season is by far the most important thing.

[JediMasterAlex]

Solos are end game huh, you mean the mode that barely pops on either NA server and is often filled with trolls on DM during the regular season.... let's not talk about the fact that with how terrible the average player is combined with the RNG nature of match making means that most solos are decided the moment the players load in.

 

The simple fact is that neither team or solo ranked is healthy in the current game, but that doesn't change the fact that there is simply too many variables in solo ranked for the devs to truly balance anything for solos.

 

Solos pops regularly on Star Forge during actual seasons, and it likely will during this upcoming season as well. Go look at the leaderboards and compare solo ranked with group ranked. Look specifically at the number of characters and also the number of wins. You will notice that solos is far, far more active than group ranked.

 

Also, many players think solos are decided before the match is played. And they are often wrong. The amount of times I've been in games where someone says: "this is a loss" and we've ended up winning is staggering. I've certainly been wrong myself plenty of times as well.

[alexsamma]

Solos pops regularly on Star Forge during actual seasons, and it likely will during this upcoming season as well. Go look at the leaderboards and compare solo ranked with group ranked. Look specifically at the number of characters and also the number of wins. You will notice that solos is far, far more active than group ranked.

 

Also, many players think solos are decided before the match is played. And they are often wrong. The amount of times I've been in games where someone says: "this is a loss" and we've ended up winning is staggering. I've certainly been wrong myself plenty of times as well.

 

There is a small amount of games on the NA servers that are actually competitive/high quality matches, the majority of matches are determined by which team the worst/most amount of window licking pve players who might as well be throwing; I won't comment on the amount of people who were suspended/reset last season for attempting to set matches during fringe hours and if I could name and shame I would make mention of some of the players that were "contending" for top 3 in solos last season because frankly that says everything that needs to be said about the quality of solo ranked in season 11.

 

I am in no way, shape, or form arguing that team ranked is alive or healthy, I'm simply stating that solo ranked is just as dead despite the "participation" numbers that you can link me on the leader boards.

[Beyrahl]

While yes, brawler is broken. It's not just the fact it does a lot of damage, it's the fact it's an AoE while doing a TON of damage.

Even with a target having AoE DR it still hits 60-80k.

Another thing is yes, Crit fuel tactical is a real problem with it, for whatever reason it actually affects its damage.

Along with that, I can mention the real messy thing imo.

Tacticals.

Restrictions for these do NOT work, Marauder using throwing arm meant for juggernaut only. Meaning they can AoE obfuscate every 10 seconds, while you'll less likely see that being a thing, someone will do it.

The main one is tank using the crit fuel and so can AP, which clearly causes a huge problem when you run into multiple PTs.

 

Another thing is power yield procing off of guard damage, also acid or any other environment damage. While it doesn't do anything crazy for tank, it makes yield last for 30s max as DPS with the ninja'd utility. Not to mention the CD was reduced to 1 minute. While I don't think this needs adjusted much outside making it not proc'd off of guard damage and environment damage. I still think it should be monitored afterwards, while they nerfed right price while crit fuel is working for tanks and brawler was a thing.

I was thinking for sure, brawler would get nerfed so I didn't even bother, I went for right price. Turns out we're all wrong on that one, brawler got buffed while right price got put into the dirt for DPS. With still an outlining problem that tactical restrictions are still not working and without them working doing any sort of balance like this is almost pointless.

 

Either way, I see brawler getting nerfed as a certainty. I don't know if tactical restrictions not working will even be acknowledged. There are more that I did not list for example, some are actually pretty good for another spec and vice versa. But I don't think Throwing arm should exist, or force bound for example. Accuracy debuffs and the imbalance between white and yellow has been a thing for too long. Introducing more accuracy debuffing things with more defense chance increases while none of this affects yellow.. Still, is just absurd. Since diversion force bound will be the first to do so, but I don't feel like we need force bound, at all. It's a terrible stall mechanic that can be stacked.

 

In all we can hope they at least acknowledge this problem and more.

 

Tacticals restrictions.

Meteor brawler (Tied in with the fact its for all 3 specs and all 3 can use crit fuel.)

Accuracy debuffs, defense chance increases. Yellow/white imbalance.

Bad tacticals

Too good to not take Tacticals.

Terrible set bonuses.

Too good to not take set bonuses.

[UltraFlashStar]

There is a small amount of games on the NA servers that are actually competitive/high quality matches.

 

Then they are poor games, but games nonetheless.

[JediMasterAlex]

There is a small amount of games on the NA servers that are actually competitive/high quality matches

 

This is just groupthink hogwash. A few EU players spread the myth that NA has lower quality matches and now everyone believes it. There is no distinguishable difference between NA and EU players.

 

the majority of matches are determined by which team the worst/most amount of window licking pve players who might as well be throwing; I won't comment on the amount of people who were suspended/reset last season for attempting to set matches during fringe hours and if I could name and shame I would make mention of some of the players that were "contending" for top 3 in solos last season because frankly that says everything that needs to be said about the quality of solo ranked in season 11.

 

I am in no way, shape, or form arguing that team ranked is alive or healthy, I'm simply stating that solo ranked is just as dead despite the "participation" numbers that you can link me on the leader boards.

 

Some of your criticisms are valid. Yet your conclusion does not follow. The word "dead" in this context clearly means that something is inactive, or isn't played. For example, when people say "this place is dead" they are referring to its population, not the quality of the people there.

 

So participation numbers are directly relevant to whether solos are "dead" or not. And they clearly aren't dead, because they pop regularly during the season. How else could I play thousands of solos matches the past two seasons? Meanwhile, people that think group ranked is important literally haven't played group ranked in over a year outside of preseason. They are not even comparable at this point. Your argument is just silly.

Edited December 1, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[alexsamma]

This is just groupthink hogwash. A few EU players spread the myth that NA has lower quality matches and now everyone believes it. There is no distinguishable difference between NA and EU players.

 

 

 

Some of your criticisms are valid. Yet your conclusion does not follow. The word "dead" in this context clearly means that something is inactive, or isn't played. For example, when people say "this place is dead" they are referring to its population, not the quality of the people there.

 

So participation numbers are directly relevant to whether solos are "dead" or not. And they clearly aren't dead, because they pop regularly during the season. How else could I play thousands of solos matches the past two seasons? Meanwhile, people that think group ranked is important literally haven't played group ranked in over a year outside of preseason. They are not even comparable at this point. Your argument is just silly.

 

 

Funny, I played roughly a hundred group ranked matches on NA last season and that was with a 5 month break to play FF14, many of my friends who stayed longer played more and I know for a fact that the Lukewarm group played hundreds, if not into the thousands of group ranked matches; I also played solo ranked on SS, SF, and DM (before I swapped ISPs), solo ranked on both NA servers was a joke outside of the first 1-2 weeks.

 

For a ranked game mode to be relevant, esp. one that uses an ELO system to match two 4 man teams comprised of individual players, you need an exceptionally large pool of potential players for the "ranked" portion of game mode to have meaning ; if you filter out the passer-bys, the conquest players, the trolls, the auto global newbs who never get better, and the win-traders/bots/throwers you're going to end up with an extremely small and pathetic population of actual solo ranked players on both NA servers.

 

Getting high rating in solo ranked has more to do with how willing you are to throw yourself into the meat grinder repeatedly than it does with how skilled you are... ranked should be a reflection of skill, not games played... unless you think that a clicking, keyboard turning meme of a mara/sentinel that got farmed so hard in a single night of attempting to play group ranked that they never tried again legitimately deserves to even have a chance to get a top 3 title....

 

DM is considered the last bastion of solo ranked because it has enough relevant players that you can actually get decent games when people are not trolling; hell I would say that many of the "top tier" solo players on NA would get stomped by the mid-tier players on EU and I am 100% an NA player (my ping is extremely unstable on DM, even with a VPN).

 

Finally, none of this has anything to do with topic on hand; regardless of how PT players perform in quad dps solo ranked matches (and if you look at my initial posts I specifically stated that pyro's performance in 4 dps matches would be extremely comp dependent) the brawler set bonus still needs to be nerfed/re-worked.

 

TLDR::

Solo ranked is as irrelevant as group ranked

NA solo ranked is literally an inbred extremely small group of players

Participation numbers are extremely padded by non pvpers

Edited December 1, 2019 by alexsamma

[JediMasterAlex]

Funny, I played roughly a hundred group ranked matches on NA last season and that was with a 5 month break to play FF14, many of my friends who stayed longer played more and I know for a fact that the Lukewarm group played hundreds, if not into the thousands of group ranked matches;

 

Huh? You know everyone has access to the leaderboards right? In season 11, one player on SF had 82 wins, the 10th most wins on the server was 37, 10th most wins on SS was 42...So ok, let's assume you were one of those top 10 in wins...no one was playing thousands of group ranked matches lol, not even hundreds. Group ranked is dead as a door nail.

 

I also played solo ranked on SS, SF, and DM (before I swapped ISPs), solo ranked on both NA servers was a joke outside of the first 1-2 weeks.

 

lmao, sure. Your "NA barely pops" comment already proves you barely played solos on NA, considering it popped all the time.

 

For a ranked game mode to be relevant, esp. one that uses an ELO system to match two 4 man teams comprised of individual players, you need an exceptionally large pool of potential players for the "ranked" portion of game mode to be relevant ; if you filter out the passer-bys, the conquest players, the trolls, the auto global newbs who never get better, and the win-traders/bots/throwers you're going to end up with an extremely small and pathetic population of actual solo ranked players on both NA servers.

 

Again with the groupthink nonsense. It's sad when you just parrot what you've heard other people say, rather than basing your opinions on reality. On Star Forge alone, 1943 characters had at least 10 wins during season 11. That is more than enough to support a healthy ELO system.

 

Getting high rating in solo ranked has more to do with how willing you are to throw yourself into the meat grinder repeatedly than it does with how skilled you are... ranked should be a reflection of skill, not games played...

 

You have it completely backwards. Many players that get high ratings get it due to luck in their placements, and have very few games played. The more games you play, the more likely you are to get a rating that accurately reflects your skill, because you lose more elo in losses than you gain in wins. It's almost like you have no clue what you're talking about. Shocking.

 

DM is considered the last bastion of solo ranked because it has enough relevant players that you can actually get decent games when people are not trolling; hell I would say that many of the "top tier" solo players on NA would get stomped by the mid-tier players on EU and I am 100% an NA player (my ping is extremely unstable on DM, even with a VPN).

 

rofl, "relevant players." The lengths people will go to to support their own delusions is astonishing. Most of the people that I've seen **** talk NA are people from EU that come to play solos on NA, promptly get **** on themselves, then proceed to complain that the quality is worse. Funny how that works.

 

TLDR::

Solo ranked is as irrelevant as group ranked

NA solo ranked is literally an inbred extremely small group of players

Participation numbers are extremely padded by non pvpers

 

I'm almost speechless that someone can be so out of touch with reality and is so happy to believe nonsense. Oh well.

Edited December 1, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[alexsamma]

Snip

 

Characters does not equal players...

 

I had 70 max level characters in 5.0 across three servers.... with how easy it is to alt in this game you simply cannot equate character participation to player participation.

Edited December 1, 2019 by alexsamma

[JediMasterAlex]

Characters does not equal players...

 

I had 70 max level characters in 5.0 across three servers.... with how easy it is to alt in this game you simply cannot equate character participation to player participation.

 

Never said it did, that's why I used the word "characters." Characters are what have elo, not players. And players have different skill levels on different characters. Neither of us have any evidence for it either way, but I'd be willing to bet most players only play on a handful of characters in ranked, some play only on one, some play on a lot. There were definitely hundreds of unique players on Star Forge throughout season 11.

Edited December 1, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[alexsamma]

Never said it did, that's why I used the word "characters." Characters are what have elo, not players. And players have different skill levels on different characters. Neither of us have any evidence for it either way, but I'd be willing to bet most players only play on a handful of characters in ranked, some play only on one, some play on a lot.

 

You can't reference character participation data and use it to make an argument for how alive/dead a game mode is when multiple characters can represent one player.

[SlimeyDoom]

snip

 

Preach that gospel b. Don't let the haters stop you!

[JediMasterAlex]

You can't reference character participation data and use it to make an argument for how alive/dead a game mode is when multiple characters can represent one player.

 

Yes I can, with the simple assumption that most players aren't playing on more than a handful of toons. Let's say on average people are playing on four toons in solos, which I think is on the high side, since many only play on one. That would mean roughly 500 unique players with at least 10 wins on Star Forge. Even if you want to up that to 8 toons each, that's still about 250. Either way, hundreds on SF, and thousands game wide, is a very safe estimate.

 

Also remember that the main point is comparing solos to group ranked. Group ranked only had 102 characters with 10 or more wins on Star Forge. 1943 vs 102. But sure, they're both equally "dead."

Edited December 1, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[alexsamma]

Yes I can, with the simple assumption that most players aren't playing on more than a handful of toons. Let's say on average people are playing on four toons in solos, which I think is on the high side, since many only play on one. That would mean roughly 500 unique players with at least 10 wins on Star Forge. Even if you want to up that to 8 toons each, that's still about 250. Either way, hundreds on SF, and thousands game wide, is a very safe estimate.

 

Also remember that the main point is comparing solos to group ranked. Group ranked only had 102 characters with 10 or more wins on Star Forge. 1943 vs 102. But sure, they're both equally 'dead."

 

I think you just made my point for me... 1943 unique players "actively" (and getting 10 wins is a pathetic baseline for being "active") participating in solo ranked would be an extremely low amount of players, 250-500 is literally the game mode on life support.

 

Edit: Yes, they're both equally dead because it takes zero organization or social skills to queue for solo ranked; you should never expect participation in organized group content to remotely equal participation in ad hoc ad content.

Edited December 1, 2019 by alexsamma