(Unofficial) WARNING - SPOILERS ALLOWED - Talk about Onslaught story thread - SPOILER

[Estelindis]

There's just no "angle" to me where supporting a slave state is gonna be acceptable in any realistic situation. Simply stating the facts of the entire franchise to date, Sith=Evil. Empire=Evil. It always just seems to me that people who try making the argument that the Republic is worse seem to ignore and rationalise the obvious atrocities put right out in front of their faces by the Empire, yet find and complain about every obscure little thing the Republic has ever gotten wrong. I'd never make the argument the Republic is pure as the driven snow but I think people making the argument the Empire is morally superior are just contrarians in my experience. Just my opinion on it

Look, again, I completely agree. The Republic is imperfect, but I cannot condemn it as worse than the Empire without willfully blinding myself to the Empire's wrongdoing. All I'm saying is that, while I believe the Empire is evil, I don't believe that fellow forum-users who disagree on this topic are themselves evil. This is about being kind to each other at the same time as acknowledging our disagreements.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Estelindis

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

Indeed. And I think we can largely leave it there on these particular subjects, agreeing to disagree.

 

(But for what it's worth, I have Imperial characters who support the Empire and are Light V too. I just roleplay them as blinded to the Empire's flaws in various ways, hence one of those characters being only somewhat terrible. After all, light side and dark side - at least in this game - don't align purely along the axis of good and evil. There are times when I feel a light sided choice can be much more cruel than a dark sided one.)

 

Then there's the times you are simply forced to murder someone or stand by and watch someone be murdered just to advance a cutscene, whether you are light V or not. Playing a light SW right now and been irked by it. There's no real way to get through the story with clean hands. Certainly not as clean as you can on a Pubside playthrough, very few forced kills on any of those 4 classes.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Indeed. And I think we can largely leave it there on these particular subjects, agreeing to disagree.

 

(But for what it's worth, I have Imperial characters who support the Empire and are Light V too. I just roleplay them as blinded to the Empire's flaws in various ways, hence one of those characters being only somewhat terrible. After all, light side and dark side - at least in this game - don't align purely along the axis of good and evil. There are times when I feel a light sided choice can be much more cruel than a dark sided one.)

 

Some of the LS choices are far crueler than the alternative, on both sides.

 

My own view is that neither side is "good," both have truly terrible histories and have committed terrible actions, but that both sides also have good people trying to make things better, if one chooses to play them that way. After all I think all of us probably live in countries where if we dig deep, we would find that our leaders or previous leaders have done horrifying things (and may currently have horrible policies or be engaging in widespread human rights abuses) but we do not consider ourselves evil for being a citizen or trying to make things better in our countries.

Edited October 30, 2019 by IoNonSoEVero

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

Look, again, I completely agree. The Republic is imperfect, but I cannot condemn it as worse than the Empire without willfully blinding myself to the Empire's wrongdoing. All I'm saying is that, while I believe the Empire is evil, I don't believe that fellow forum-users who disagree on this topic are themselves evil. This is about being kind to each other at the same time as acknowledging our disagreements.

 

I.... honestly don't get the problem you seem to be having here? Being kind? Where have I insulted someone? Condemning the Empire isn't insulting anyone, it's not real :/

[Estelindis]

Then there's the times you are simply forced to murder someone or stand by and watch someone be murdered just to advance a cutscene, whether you are light V or not. Playing a light SW right now and been irked by it. There's no real way to get through the story with clean hands. Certainly not as clean as you can on a Pubside playthrough, very few forced kills on any of those 4 classes.

Agree with this very much. Particularly sith warrior. I still feel terrible about the poor spy Baras tortures on DK. The man resists it all bravely, but we collaborate with his mind being turned into mush. In fact, we literally enable it by obtaining what Baras needs. I can't see my warriors as good people following that scene... One is a disciple of darkness, gloating in the suffering. Another is a blinkered, morally compromised upholder of a superficial sense of "honour" (the standards of which, of course, only apply to sith and Imperials, so the spy is exempt). And another still is someone more concerned with their own advancement and not too worried about the people who get stepped on (and justifies the spy's fate, in any case, as Baras would've found some way regardless).

 

All that being said, we are having a fun chat, but we are very much off-topic by this point. I'd like to broaden the discussion, if this is something that interests people, to the feeling of returning to Republic vs. Empire broadly in the story - and whether this is something that people are enjoying.

 

For my part, yes, I'm liking this a lot. And I really appreciate the option we're given to keep the Alliance independent. I have only taken it on a couple of characters so far, the majority of my characters choosing to return to their original factions, but I feel it was important to include it as a choice, and in most cases it was not an easy one.

[Estelindis]

I.... honestly don't get the problem you seem to be having here? Being kind? Where have I insulted someone? Condemning the Empire isn't insulting anyone, it's not real :/

I don't think you've insulted anyone. I am trying to take care not to cause offence, myself.

 

Yes, of course the Empire is fictional, but - I think - we use the same moral values to analyze fictional regimes as we do real ones. Fiction and real life have a lot to say to each other, and can never (in my view) be totally separated.

[SerraShar]

well if we are talking about the expansion, one part I was worried about is :

 

 

1- That it would go like the Inquisition in DAI ? that we get a ''If you keep it..bad things gonna happen!'' .

 

The part I loved and was a bit worried was with DS Sorc :

 

It started with ''I hope you kept my Dark Council chair and membership warm ?''

 

Then she goes ''You ugly whats your name again ? Thats my chair! Give it baaaaaaack!!'

 

Then dude whats his name say ''You can't challenge me! Look at mah outfit! Its already RED!''

 

Then stuff happen, murder and mayhem...

 

Then we go back to Acina , and she go ''Remember what I said about my chair ? ZAP ZAP''

 

And Acina goes ''So does that mean you are joining now ? *Look at smoking corpse*

 

My sorc: Nah...I'm bored now...time to go back to the alliance...

 

Acina: Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

 

 

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

For my part, yes, I'm liking this a lot. And I really appreciate the option we're given to keep the Alliance independent. I have only taken it on a couple of characters so far, the majority of my characters choosing to return to their original factions, but I feel it was important to include it as a choice, and in most cases it was not an easy one.

 

I've been banging the "return to ImpvPub" drum since like a week after KOTFE was first dropped so, yeah, I'm thrilled. Really don't enjoy KOTFE/ET at all tbh. It just doesn't feel like Star Wars to me. I wouldn't have hated it with such a burning passion tho if I hadn't been forced to run through the same damn story so many times... For me, returning to the Jedi/returning to the Dark Council are my two favourite moments since SOR by a large large LARGE margin. I hope we continue down this vein. The fact the actual planet Zakuul seems to have evaporated from known space completely as far as the story is concerned gives me a lot of hope. When's the last time the place was even mentioned? Odessen gets mentioned a lot as "your planet", but Zakuul is always left out, even though some characters can still technically be the ruler of it too right?

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

I don't think you've insulted anyone. I am trying to take care not to cause offence, myself.

 

Yes, of course the Empire is fictional, but - I think - we use the same moral values to analyze fictional regimes as we do real ones. Fiction and real life have a lot to say to each other, and can never (in my view) be totally separated.

 

Ok, I get it. The thing for me is, the real life regime the Empire is based on is Nazi Germany (Pretty sure Lucas has said that himself). So that's just the cold hard facts of the matter, and it's hard to rationalise for any regime based on them. Just my two cents

Edited October 30, 2019 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[SerraShar]

When's the last time the place was even mentioned? Odessen gets mentioned a lot as "your planet", but Zakuul is always left out, even though some characters can still technically be the ruler of it too right?

 

Tell me about it.

 

I even got Koth harping (On Repb) about Helping Zaakul . But here my DS and LS (On IMP) who rule Zaakul (LS who let it rule itself) didn't get squat . (well maybe cose Koth got murdered-for-interrupting-Lana-Smoochie)..but thats a minor details. Zaakul shouldn't be depandant on him being there or not.

Edited October 30, 2019 by SerraShar

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

Tell me about it.

 

I even got Koth harping (On Repb) about Helping Zaakul . But here my DS and LS (On IMP) who rule Zaakul (LS who let it rule itself) didn't get squat . (well maybe cose Koth got murdered-for-interrupting-Lana-Smoochie)..but thats a minor details. Zaakul shouldn't be depandant on him being there or not.

 

Wait! You heard Koth speak in THIS expansion?!? Wow. I thought for sure he had evaporated as well. Can't remember the last time I seen him, and he's living on a fair amount of my toons.

[Estelindis]

I've been banging the "return to ImpvPub" drum since like a week after KOTFE was first dropped so, yeah, I'm thrilled. Really don't enjoy KOTFE/ET at all tbh. It just doesn't feel like Star Wars to me. I wouldn't have hated it with such a burning passion tho if I hadn't been forced to run through the same damn story so many times... For me, returning to the Jedi/returning to the Dark Council are my two favourite moments since SOR by a large large LARGE margin. I hope we continue down this vein. The fact the actual planet Zakuul seems to have evaporated from known space completely as far as the story is concerned gives me a lot of hope. When's the last time the place was even mentioned? Odessen gets mentioned a lot as "your planet", but Zakuul is always left out, even though some characters can still technically be the ruler of it too right?

Well I think Zakuul is independent in all scenarios, even ones where you've decided to be Emperor or Empress! With the loss of the eternal fleet, and the Alliance just having regular ships (as far as I'm aware), it seems like Zakuul made a break for it. Even in their reduced state, a would-be tyrant doesn't (apparently) have the resources to beat them into submission. I believe Zakuul's last proper mention came in Hearts and Minds, via Koth's request to help disrupt the Exchange's operations there. On Mek-Sha, the Commander can make oblique reference to those ongoing operations without going into too much detail.

 

And yes, it was a special and precious moment to be invited back into the fold. A jedi returning to the council, a trooper officially getting their rank back, or a warrior being made Wrath again, it all seemed to harken back to the original story. With so many small elements during Onslaught also calling back in various ways, it made me feel like the new writing appreciates the original story, rather than wanting to get away from it. And since most of us love the class stories so much, that feels really important.

[SerraShar]

Wait! You heard Koth speak in THIS expansion?!? Wow. I thought for sure he had evaporated as well. Can't remember the last time I seen him, and he's living on a fair amount of my toons.

 

He did . I only played the repb side once on my Jedi consular (Cose thats the only one thats that far). And yeah, when you start and get the ''Go talk to the others'' . He is right there!!! Harping about the Zaakul need halp again and yada yada.

 

But nothing on the Imp side to whoever left him alive.

 

Or any mention of Zaakul issues either to a DS that decided to rules the planet.

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

 

And yes, it was a special and precious moment to be invited back into the fold. A jedi returning to the council, a trooper officially getting their rank back, or a warrior being made Wrath again, it all seemed to harken back to the original story. With so many small elements during Onslaught also calling back in various ways, it made me feel like the new writing appreciates the original story, rather than wanting to get away from it. And since most of us love the class stories so much, that feels really important.

 

Yes! This. My main issue with KOTFE was the lack of reverence to literally any of the story that came before, referencing the past is always a good idea imo. It serves to make your character feel a lot more significant rather than just feeling like some cardboard cutout

[Estelindis]

Ok, I get it. The thing for me is, the real life regime the Empire is based on is Nazi Germany (Pretty sure Lucas has said that himself). So that's just the cold hard facts of the matter, and it's hard to rationalise for any regime based on them. Just my two cents

Again, I fully agree, personally. I just acknowledge that not everyone accepts those parallels. We can point to the intention of Lucas, but "death of the author" is a thing, so not everyone believes that the author's intention is authoritative. *shrug* I will leave anyone who feels that way to argue it for themselves, though. I am not making that argument, only acknowledging its existence.

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

He did . I only played the repb side once on my Jedi consular (Cose thats the only one thats that far). And yeah, when you start and get the ''Go talk to the others'' . He is right there!!! Harping about the Zaakul need halp again and yada yada.

 

But nothing on the Imp side to whoever left him alive.

 

Or any mention of Zaakul issues either to a DS that decided to rules the planet.

 

Damn, I think I know why I missed him. I've only brought my JK through Onsaluaght on Pubside so far and I noticed he was bugged in my Companion window at the time, showing as unavailable down beside the dead characters even thought he most assuredly was not. As much as I dislike KOTFE, it is good to hear from him to me, I like him. Well, not so much "like" him, but I like his VA. And he is an interesting character to have around

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

Again, I fully agree, personally. I just acknowledge that not everyone accepts those parallels. We can point to the intention of Lucas, but "death of the author" is a thing, so not everyone believes that the author's intention is authoritative. *shrug* I will leave anyone who feels that way to argue it for themselves, though. I am not making that argument, only acknowledging its existence.

 

People believe a lot of crazy things, it would seem.

[SerraShar]

Damn, I think I know why I missed him. I've only brought my JK through Onsaluaght on Pubside so far and I noticed he was bugged in my Companion window at the time, showing as unavailable down beside the dead characters even thought he most assuredly was not. As much as I dislike KOTFE, it is good to hear from him to me, I like him. Well, not so much "like" him, but I like his VA. And he is an interesting character to have around

 

If I could give him to you....I totally would.

 

I enjoyed killing him. But can'T stomach doing it on my pure wimpy characters lol

 

So..should I drop him on Odessen for you ?

 

Maybe I should charge you..huh...whats the rate going nowdays with the war ?

[Estelindis]

Yes! This. My main issue with KOTFE was the lack of reverence to literally any of the story that came before, referencing the past is always a good idea imo. It serves to make your character feel a lot more significant rather than just feeling like some cardboard cutout

Well... KotFE doesn't literally lack reference to any of the story that came before. I am just doing an inquisitor playthrough of KotFE at the moment, actually, and even in the first handful of chapters there were were more references than I expected (this being my first inquisitor to actually play those chapters rather than jumping to KotET). For instance, when catching up on events of the past five years with Lana, the inquisitor can ask about their power base, silencer weapons, etc.

 

Nonetheless, I wanted many more references than we got - I can agree on that much. There was not sufficient distinction between classes for me. Probably the most egregious example in my book is chapter 12 of KotFE. And not just because it's a very Force-y chapter, while only half the classes are force-users. For one thing, most of my characters would not at all accept Lana's (very out-of-character for her) suggestion that we go into the wilderness to talk to Valkorion. But even among those, my troopers would especially not accept her suggestion, but would rather go on the Spire mission with Jorgan and Havoc (or at least wait until called upon to join the mission). It still maddens me that Jorgan was bereaved of his new squad and there was literally nothing a trooper commander was allowed to do in the story to prevent that. I would much prefer if chapter 12 as we know it applied to force-users, and non-force went on the Spire mission instead. But hey. At least things are looking up now.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Estelindis

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

Well... KotFE doesn't literally lack reference to any of the story that came before. I am just doing an inquisitor playthrough of KotFE at the moment, actually, and even in the first handful of chapters there were were more references than I expected (this being my first inquisitor to actually play those chapters rather than jumping to KotET). For instance, when catching up on events of the past five years with Lana, the inquisitor can ask about their power base, silencer weapons, etc.

 

Nonetheless, I wanted many more references than we got - I can agree on that much. There was not sufficient distinction between classes for me. Probably the most egregious example in my book is chapter 12 of KotFE. And not just because it's a very Force-y chapter, while only half the classes are force-users. For one thing, most of my characters would not at all accept Lana's (very out-of-character for her) suggestion that we go into the wilderness to talk to Valkorion. But even among those, my troopers would especially not accept her suggestion, but would rather go on the Spire mission with Jorgan and Havoc (or at least wait until called upon to join the mission). It still maddens me that Jorgan was bereaved of his new squad and there was literally nothing a trooper commander was allowed to do in the story to prevent that. I would much prefer if chapter 12 as we know it applied to force-users, and non-force went on the Spire mission instead. But hey. At least things are looking up now.

 

I'd rather not even discuss the utter MESS that comes from playing KOTFE as any non-force class. The entire story, to me, is completely unrealistic in terms of the usual standards of the wider franchise. Chapter 12 (and any chapter where you fight Arcann, Vaylin or Valkorion) obviously is the worst case, but I think the entire expansion suffers in that sense. I basically retire all my non-force user classes past SOR because I find it unplayable (I only play for story after all, and I can't play a nonsensical story). The story from that point just never fits any of my non-force characters personalities whatsoever.

Edited October 30, 2019 by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[IoNonSoEVero]

If I could give him to you....I totally would.

 

I enjoyed killing him. But can'T stomach doing it on my pure wimpy characters lol

 

So..should I drop him on Odessen for you ?

 

Maybe I should charge you..huh...whats the rate going nowdays with the war ?

 

Hmmm. I missed this too. I did have Koth in Hearts & Minds on both sides doing his "Zakuul needs more!" routine, but nothing in Onslaught. I did give him the help he wanted in H&M because I didn't want another of his tantrums but if it were up to me entirely, I would leave Zakuul to rot.

 

I think the reason Koth is still around on most of my characters is more because I don't like leaving the refugees or bombing the Spire rather than any fondness for Koth himself.

[uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu]

Hmmm. I missed this too. I did have Koth in Hearts & Minds on both sides doing his "Zakuul needs more!" routine, but nothing in Onslaught. I did give him the help he wanted in H&M because I didn't want another of his tantrums but if it were up to me entirely, I would leave Zakuul to rot.

 

I think the reason Koth is still around on most of my characters is more because I don't like leaving the refugees or bombing the Spire rather than any fondness for Koth himself.

 

Damn, I forgot about Koth appearing in Hearts and Minds too! But it was so short I literally can remember nothing about it

[SerraShar]

Hmmm. I missed this too. I did have Koth in Hearts & Minds on both sides doing his "Zakuul needs more!" routine, but nothing in Onslaught. I did give him the help he wanted in H&M because I didn't want another of his tantrums but if it were up to me entirely, I would leave Zakuul to rot.

 

I think the reason Koth is still around on most of my characters is more because I don't like leaving the refugees or bombing the Spire rather than any fondness for Koth himself.

 

I didn't care..down to hate Kotfe and Kotet.

 

But they shoved Zaakul this and Zaakul that SO much on to me (Not gonna speak for anyone else), that damn it. Give it to me then .

 

Add to that since the dream to rule the Empire aint happening (yet), one take what one can....lol

[Estelindis]

Hmmm. I missed this too. I did have Koth in Hearts & Minds on both sides doing his "Zakuul needs more!" routine, but nothing in Onslaught. I did give him the help he wanted in H&M because I didn't want another of his tantrums but if it were up to me entirely, I would leave Zakuul to rot.

I didn't come across any voice-acting for Koth in Onslaught, just the opportunity to mention to Veek that we had someone (Koth, unnamed) working against the Exchange, assuming we'd previously agreed to Koth's request in Hearts and Minds.

 

I'd rather not even discuss the utter MESS that comes from playing KOTFE as any non-force class. The entire story, to me, is completely unrealistic in terms of the usual standards of the wider franchise. Chapter 12 (and any chapter where you fight Arcann, Vaylin or Valkorion) obviously is the worst case, but I think the entire expansion suffers in that sense. I basically retire all my non-force user classes past SOR because I find it unplayable (I only play for story after all, and I can't play a nonsensical story)

Yeah. I can just about figure out some angle for agent, trooper, and hunter... but I still haven't been able to justify bringing a smuggler through it. And even with those who I can see some angle on, it's not as good a fit as a force-user. I mean, of course, there are also chapters dedicated towards subterfuge, military ops, etc., but I feel like a sith or jedi is able to "multitask" the odd time into such pursuits, in a way that doesn't really work the other way around. Military training and derring-do just doesn't suffice when confronted with the most powerful force-users in the galaxy.

 

Of course, the great equalizer is Valkorion. Anyone can be the protagonist and go up against his children if his power is within them. But then... doesn't that only really succeed at making KotFE/ET his story? And making the main character utterly replaceable? Bah.

 

On that note, I shall retire for the night, having stayed up way too late to continue this pleasant conversation with you. Thank you for the chat! I look forward to whatever story discussion tomorrow brings.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Estelindis

[IoNonSoEVero]

Yeah. I can just about figure out some angle for agent, trooper, and hunter... but I still haven't been able to justify bringing a smuggler through it. And even with those who I can see some angle on, it's not as good a fit as a force-user. I mean, of course, there are also chapters dedicated towards subterfuge, military ops, etc., but I feel like a sith or jedi is able to "multitask" the odd time into such pursuits, in a way that doesn't really work the other way around. Military training and derring-do just doesn't suffice when confronted with the most powerful force-users in the galaxy.

 

Of course, the great equalizer is Valkorion. Anyone can be the protagonist and go up against his children if his power is within them. But then... doesn't that only really succeed at making KotFE/ET his story? And making the main character utterly replaceable? Bah.

 

On that note, I shall retire for the night, having stayed up way too late to continue this pleasant conversation with you. Thank you for the chat! I look forward to whatever story discussion tomorrow brings.

 

I agree.

 

I can justify the agent or trooper from a logistical point of view. The agent is skilled at very unorthodox tactics of war and has proven themselves against a variety of formidable enemies. The trooper is the former leader of Havoc Squad, and what a good match to lead a military force. I can also believe that Valkorion would have found them attractive as "hosts" because they'd proven their mettle in battle and he is attracted to strength.

 

All the same, even with Valkorion's power, I can't accept that they would be the only super special ones able to vanquish several very strong Force users.