Well, with PTS shutting down, the gearing of doom is UPON US.....

[Pirana]

This is about how I thought it would go down. EAWare is notorious for not changing their minds, which is why they're down to a handful of servers. It's either their arrogance, ignorance or just plain stupidity why this games population is so small.

 

Personally, I don't think this change is as bad as it appears. Gearing for alts should be easier now and gearing should never be the driving force behind any game, content should be. It's debatable whether the two should go hand in hand, but I'll take content over the proverbial carrot on a stick gearing any day, as long as that content can be beaten with sup-bar gear until we get the gear we're desirous of. Which brings us to the next question. How often will new content be released? Going off their history, it's going to be sporadic as always.

 

I can't really comment on crafting as I stopped crafting years ago.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Pirana

[HuaRya]

As a player of many other games during my hiatus this is in sync with popular games like Destiny. Will it work for a game where average player has dozens upon dozens of alts? I'm optimistic to say it will. Get familiar with the term 'God Roll'.

 

Where this system would truly shine is with weapons that have random perks e.g. extended range, different barrels, sights, crystals, hilts, etc.

[Gelious]

In addition, if you want to have a full set bonus gear, you better not be poor. ON PTR, 1 piece of set gear costs 3000 tech fragments and 1 million credits. And there are 7 of them (though you only need 6 for full bonus)

 

To make matters worse it's just empty shells. To fill them either go do some content (and hope for good RNG) or go visit vendor (175 fragments per 1 type of mod, which are all defined by RNG of course)

 

So yea, first you just do any content to get full set of 306 non-moddable gear (with the only exception being weapon and off-hand which are always moddable), then you grind mods and shells.

 

IMPORTANT: You need to have you char item level to be 306. Or else you risk getting mods that are not 306 level.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Gelious

[Master_Morak]

You are right... BW seems rather intent on the carrot - stick model of gaming. If I've hung around this game for what, 6 or 7 years I obviously don't need that carrot to keep playing, Musco.

 

Play your way is appearing to be a practical joke

 

Play your way is not a joke, is it still a typical BW lie.

[Master_Morak]

This is about how I thought it would go down. EAWare is notorious for not changing their minds, which is why they're down to a handful of servers. It's either their arrogance, ignorance or just plain stupidity why this games population is so small.

 

I could not say it better.

[Lhancelot]

Eric also did mention there would be an increase in mods dropping in the game so I wonder how that will work out. But the big thing, again is crafting. I'd like to know to what level/rating we will be able to craft mods.

 

I want to know this too. How much will crafting supplement gearing? Will it be possible to craft mods? What about amplifiers? Tacticals?

[ZionHalcyon]

I guess this went over the heads of a couple of people, but the reason I made this post is to explain that this isn't the same old EAWare screwing people over.

 

We need to move past the point where we think every bad decision is a deliberate attempt to screw the players.

 

Sometimes it's just purely bad design.

 

The gearing system that BioWare originally envisioned isn't going to work as they want it to. However, it's close enough that with a few changes, it could work really well.

 

That is why I am looking at how they adjust the system going forward.

 

To give some perspective, for all the people complaining about RNG, true RNG is in games like Diablo and Path of Exile. I play Path of Exile quite a bit. That is truly where terms like God roll matter.

 

Having actually played the system that is going in on test center oh, I can tell you that the stats are nowhere near as ridiculous in variance as those games. I can also tell you that the RNG isn't nearly as brutal either.

 

In those games, you can be a level 80 player, destroying everything in your path on a map equal to your level oh, and you will see items including unique items drop that are Level 10.

 

This gearing system in SWTOR is not that.

 

The gearing system is always trying to upgrade you. Sometimes you'll get stuff equal to what you have and other times you will get stuff that is slightly better. Still other times you'll get stuff that is seen as an upgrade in terms of item rating but heavily favors a stat you probably don't want.

 

Here's the deal before you freak out about that: none of it is going to prevent you from playing the content they have for us.

 

Yes, getting the optimal armors or mods will help the experience feel smoother and you can clear through places faster. But this is not going to prevent you from participating in activities. Nothing is truly gated with the exception of nightmare mode operations, which coincidentally also drop the highest tiers of gear.

 

Everything else is spread out before you and accomplishable with the gear the system gives you.

 

It's very clunky for sure. Probably over designed. And like others have said a lot matters on how crafting will work into this.

 

But the real challenge for players is that this system is different. For better or worse players can become accustomed to certain systems that may not be the best and while they always are asking for the systems to be improved, what they really want is comfort. So that limits the potential scope of improvements.

 

If the developers seriously listen to player feedback over the next 6 months on the gearing system (other than the unconstructive criticisms of just roll everything back, which isn't going to happen), make the needed adjustments to what they have , the bones are here for a really good gearing system I'll be at 1 a bit different than any we've had in the game before.

 

My concern and what should be everyone's concern is will the developers actually listen to that feedback. It's been a mixed bag so far but they've listened to be way more than they ever have in the past as well.

 

I think at this point the developers want to push it to live and get actual full player feedback on the system before making any other changes and they'll likely not be doing it over a day or a week but will want a sample of a few months. That's why I don't expect any changes until March or April of next year.

 

I guess the other reason I wanted to put this post out there what's the make people aware that we aren't really getting a finished product in terms of gearing when this hits. Managing some expectations and hopefully getting people out of their own way so they can offer constructive criticism instead of just random token whining and moaning, and repeating the same old cliches about EAWare and the like.

[Lhancelot]

Managing some expectations and hopefully getting people out of their own way so they can offer constructive criticism.

 

That's why I just shut up about RNG. It's about expectations, and if you are expecting something like the old gearing system you are setting yourself up for more disappointment. It's clear to either accept change, or not.

 

I will point out though, changes like giving snipers phasewalk are awful changes and I will fully continue complaining, whining, and criticizing class changes like this.

[OlBuzzard]

 

(/snip- snip] …

 

 

But the real challenge for players is that this system is different. For better or worse players can become accustomed to certain systems that may not be the best and while they always are asking for the systems to be improved, what they really want is comfort. So that limits the potential scope of improvements.

 

If the developers seriously listen to player feedback over the next 6 months on the gearing system (other than the unconstructive criticisms of just roll everything back, which isn't going to happen), make the needed adjustments to what they have , the bones are here for a really good gearing system I'll be at 1 a bit different than any we've had in the game before.

 

My concern and what should be everyone's concern is will the developers actually listen to that feedback. It's been a mixed bag so far but they've listened to be way more than they ever have in the past as well.

 

I think at this point the developers want to push it to live and get actual full player feedback on the system before making any other changes and they'll likely not be doing it over a day or a week but will want a sample of a few months. That's why I don't expect any changes until March or April of next year.

 

I guess the other reason I wanted to put this post out there what's the make people aware that we aren't really getting a finished product in terms of gearing when this hits. Managing some expectations and hopefully getting people out of their own way so they can offer constructive criticism instead of just random token whining and moaning, and repeating the same old cliches about EAWare and the like.

 

 

 

And So … it begins.

 

We have returned to the inception of yet another chapter and perhaps a new beginning. Some for only honor and remembrance, some will be content to remain the same, while still others will grow and learn. Change is inevitable. With change comes opportunity. That opportunity is not limited to just those who are playing this game. That growth is also available for everyone on an equal basis. What becomes of that opportunity is up to the individual.

 

While it is true the new release obviously has yet to unfold, it can be said that certain aspects of only a small part of the game have cast a shadow over the rest.

** art work and 3-D models (of which I'm personally fond of

** companions

** the up coming story: It's impact, how it ties into the past and perhaps sets the stage for the future of the game

** content : beyond armor and crafting

(only to mention a few)

 

Now that the testing is done the communication of information has been completed. And regardless of past sentiment it's now time to focus other matters at hand.

 

ZionHalcyon … you evaluations continue to have merit. A great deal of it we agree with. As for the rest: We will see when the time comes. Time will tell.

[Lhancelot]

ZionHalcyon … you evaluations continue to have merit.

 

Zion went from full blast blind SWTOR supporting Zion to cynical angry disappointed SWTOR supporting Zion, to resigned and go with the flow Zion. I think that's mostly where I am now.

 

Hopefully the critical feedback by all the "whiners" and "naysayers" helped during the process of the devs creating 6.0. People are only critical because they actually care, btw.

 

Anyway, I found the evolution of Zion interesting.

[ElZaguero]

I mean, I understand it; I just don't like it.

 

This exactly. The problem is not that we fail to "get it". We are not stupid. The problem is that we are not willing to accept it.

[OlBuzzard]

Zion went from full blast blind SWTOR supporting Zion to cynical angry disappointed SWTOR supporting Zion, to resigned and go with the flow Zion. I think that's mostly where I am now.

 

Hopefully the critical feedback by all the "whiners" and "naysayers" helped during the process of the devs creating 6.0. People are only critical because they actually care, btw.

 

Anyway, I found the evolution of Zion interesting.

 

I honestly don't believe that some were whiners... though it's entirely truthful to suggest that some were. Giving opinions and statements that were frequently based upon and often with supportive documentation that indicated issues that needed to be addressed was not and still is not a form of unduly founded shriek's of panic laden disfavor.

 

As you and others have mentioned in the past: differing opinions can be good … particularly when done with an attitude of respect one to the other.

 

That said: the "shift" of Zion's positions from time to time at least indicates his honest review of the matter at hand (regardless of how those events looked .. good or bad). IMO.... none of us had all of the correct facts at hand AT THAT time. So it's only natural that opinions and consequent conclusions can change from time to time.

 

One term that almost jumps right out at me (for example) is cautious optimism .. That for me best describes this situation at this point in time.

Edited October 12, 2019 by OlBuzzard

[ZionHalcyon]

Pretty much dead on with regards to my shifting opinions. I react based on my perception at the time, while at the same time, never locking in on a position so hard I disregard usable info that can change my mind.

 

I will say, Keith has given me hope for the game to be better than in the past, while that tester's article on swtor lowered my expectations on swtor by helping me realize that swtor at its best was a happy accident BioWare didn't even want to do.

 

As such, I have settled into a spot where I can still enjoy the game, still objectively see the improvement, but also no longer be emotionally invested in a product where the very creators have such low expectations for it.

 

It's why I am just along for the journey now. Gearing feels like part 1 of something bigger. I'm curious to see where it ultimately leads...

[jimmorrisson]

In all seriousness, I ran about 5 flashpoints and 1 warzone last night and got a real feel for the gearing system.

 

It's... different.

 

Think of gearing now more like a journey rather than a destination.

 

 

This is not different. "Just play the game" was 5.0 talking points.

6.0 is 5.0 reshuffled with more time spent on grinding end game gear than using end game gear.

 

I will say, Keith has given me hope for the game to be better than in the past, while that tester's article on swtor

 

Best thing Keith has accomplished so far was an bug which granted certain planetary dailies and weeklies overgrant CXP.

 

Worst thing Keith has accomplished was the underhanded server merge which ended up being two East Coast USA servers resulting a massive player hemorrhage from APAC and even some from the West Coast...

 

That and 6.0 end game gearing. It was offensive that 6.0 even made it to public testing.

 

I will admit that since 5.0 all of the new strongholds, flashpoints, pvp maps and cross faction queuing were for the most part awesome however.

Edited October 13, 2019 by jimmorrisson

[OlBuzzard]

Pretty much dead on with regards to my shifting opinions. I react based on my perception at the time, while at the same time, never locking in on a position so hard I disregard usable info that can change my mind.

 

I will say, Keith has given me hope for the game to be better than in the past, while that tester's article on swtor lowered my expectations on swtor by helping me realize that swtor at its best was a happy accident BioWare didn't even want to do.

 

As such, I have settled into a spot where I can still enjoy the game, still objectively see the improvement, but also no longer be emotionally invested in a product where the very creators have such low expectations for it.

 

It's why I am just along for the journey now. Gearing feels like part 1 of something bigger. I'm curious to see where it ultimately leads...

 

Hence my earlier statement:

 

And So … it begins.

 

We have returned to the inception of yet another chapter and perhaps a new beginning. Some for only honor and remembrance, some will be content to remain the same, while still others will grow and learn. Change is inevitable. With change comes opportunity. That opportunity is not limited to just those who are playing this game. That growth is also available for everyone on an equal basis. What becomes of that opportunity is up to the individual.

 

While it is true the new release obviously has yet to unfold, it can be said that certain aspects of only a small part of the game have cast a shadow over the rest.

** art work and 3-D models (of which I'm personally fond of

** companions

** the up coming story: It's impact, how it ties into the past and perhaps sets the stage for the future of the game

** content : beyond armor and crafting

(only to mention a few)

 

Now that the testing is done the communication of information has been completed. And regardless of past sentiment it's now time to focus other matters at hand.

 

ZionHalcyon … you evaluations continue to have merit. A great deal of it we agree with. As for the rest: We will see when the time comes. Time will tell.

 

It seems we both have a great deal more in common that we once did.

 

[ElZaguero]

Same. Ever since this gearing system was announced in that stream I've spent more time looking around Ossus and Dantooine; I still see alot of 230's or there abouts more or less. The more and more this new 6.0 system is described I'm wondering how many will actually try to pick this up and which ones will simply throw up their hands and log out.

 

This is me. I have two toons that have finished Iokath and ready to move on to Nathema or whatever is next, and they are all wearing solid 230's with one piece of 243 (or something like that). And I have no way to better that.

 

The problem with the system is that those who have more continue to get better gear, and those of us on the outside of the goodie circle get nothing but a lump of coal in our Christmas stocking. The solo player is f***ed, stuck at a deadend with no way to improve.

 

And by all accounts that is going to get even worse with 6.0, because the better the gear you HAVE, the better the gear you will get. Those who have more will get more, and those with less will get nothing.

 

I am honestly in despair at this point. I have played this game for so long, and loved it so much, and I feel I have been utterly abandoned by BW because of this development path they have chosen. I pay my monthly sub the same as everyone, but why should I continue?

[Jdast]

This is me. I have two toons that have finished Iokath and ready to move on to Nathema or whatever is next, and they are all wearing solid 230's with one piece of 243 (or something like that). And I have no way to better that.

 

The problem with the system is that those who have more continue to get better gear, and those of us on the outside of the goodie circle get nothing but a lump of coal in our Christmas stocking. The solo player is f***ed, stuck at a deadend with no way to improve.

 

And by all accounts that is going to get even worse with 6.0, because the better the gear you HAVE, the better the gear you will get. Those who have more will get more, and those with less will get nothing.

 

I am honestly in despair at this point. I have played this game for so long, and loved it so much, and I feel I have been utterly abandoned by BW because of this development path they have chosen. I pay my monthly sub the same as everyone, but why should I continue?

 

I can (hopefully) alleviate some of your concerns. Let's start out with one basic point...

 

[*]The starter gear you receive for completing the Onslaught story (full 268 set) was previously static, it will now be moddable with mods included.

 

In other words, you are guaranteed a decent enough full set on each character. I find it very difficult to believe that we won't be able to complete the basic storyline with gear in the 230 range.

 

While the vertical gearing system, by which I mean raising Ilvl, is a bit convoluted, it's not that bad once you know where the vendors are located. Simply go to them, target the item you want, but make sure you are maximizing the chance to get an upgrade for the specific slot by having the average Ilvl be higher. Essentially, the fastest way to raise Ilvl gear is to always roll on your lowest piece at the vendor.

 

Similarly, if you are out in the open world or in a FP, you might want to consider swapping gear to get highest average Ilvl up so you have a better chance of getting an upgrade.

 

I take (and agree with) Zion's broader point that the new gearing system will be *good enough* to complete content. I still find the Mod situation, however, frustrating.

 

More broadly, as others have noted -- they have actually listened to feedback on the PTS. PTS version 3 is a huge improvement over PTS version 1. To say it is akin to 5.0 is demonstrably false. Crafting changes are also in the works, though obviously implementation is key.

 

Regardless, by completing the basic storyline, you are guaranteed a full 268 set with mods. You won't be left behind.

 

Dasty

Edited October 13, 2019 by Jdast

[Transcendent]

Trust me, I am in the same boat.

 

However, one thing I can safely put to bed is the whole "RNG" sentiment.

 

Yes, there is some mild RNG, but frankly, with the way the fleet vendor is combined with the fact that you don't need to be absolutely min-maxed to run most content, it all works well enough and you definitely feel the trend of gear carrying you ever upward - you aren't really ever left feeling like "oh crap, I really need gear piece xyz so I can move on to harder content, but the game isn't giving it to me!" To me, that's what bad RNG is like.

 

Rather, its the overall design itself that feels rough. The whole thing feels well...overdesigned. Complexity for its own sake. Artificial rather than a natural extension of the game.

 

That's an interesting takeaway from your overall assessment. Just out of curiosity for the players like myself who are still using 204 rated gear in 5.0 (because I couldn't face the RNG gear grind on multiple characters....), what is it like trying to play the new content with the altered Level Sync with lower gear and nerfed healing companions? Harder / easier? Also how does it pan out for gearing multiple characters with the new system?

[ZionHalcyon]

That's an interesting takeaway from your overall assessment. Just out of curiosity for the players like myself who are still using 204 rated gear in 5.0 (because I couldn't face the RNG gear grind on multiple characters....), what is it like trying to play the new content with the altered Level Sync with lower gear and nerfed healing companions? Harder / easier? Also how does it pan out for gearing multiple characters with the new system?

 

Slower. As I said before , you're still able to complete the content , but it's a little bit of a slog until you upgrade. But nice thing on that front is if you take my suggestions in the thread initially and just upgrade as you get gear, you will get upgraded very quickly right away. Then it doesn't feel so much like a slog. The one thing I will say is this system practically throws gear at you.

[ZionHalcyon]

That's an interesting takeaway from your overall assessment. Just out of curiosity for the players like myself who are still using 204 rated gear in 5.0 (because I couldn't face the RNG gear grind on multiple characters....), what is it like trying to play the new content with the altered Level Sync with lower gear and nerfed healing companions? Harder / easier? Also how does it pan out for gearing multiple characters with the new system?

 

I just realized that I didn't answer the second part of your question. Because of the sheer volume of gear that gets thrown your way, the stuff you don't need to use on your main can definitely be transferred over to one of your other characters.

 

In that sense it's almost like a gear overload. People will have a hard time keeping track of everything but there will be plenty of gear to go around for a person and all their alts.

[DarthSpuds]

To me, that's what bad RNG is like.

 

When the common sense alternative - one that Bioware used to use - is to earn a Currency and then trade the Currency in for EXACTLY what you want there is simply no such thing as "good RNG" - it is ALL bad.

 

RNG is Cheap.

RNG is Lazy.

RNG is Grindy.

 

Let me ask you - have you or anyone you know or have even heard of - ever experienced a "good" Cheap-Lazy-Grind?

 

I rest my case.

 

All The Best

[DarthSpuds]

I

The gearing system that BioWare originally envisioned isn't going to work as they want it to. However, it's close enough that with a few changes, it could work really well.

 

So if you went to restaurant for a meal would you accept a plate of raw ingredients on the understanding that "it's close enough, with a few changes it could work really well"?

 

Or would you tell the Waiting Staff to take it back as ask the Chef to kindly actually %$^&*ng cook it?

 

No need to answer, we all already know what it would be.

 

If "with a few changes it could work really well" Bioware should get of their cheap, lazy asses and make those changes BEFORE subjecting us to this abomination.

 

All The Best

[DarthSpuds]

This exactly. The problem is not that we fail to "get it". We are not stupid. The problem is that we are not willing to accept it.

 

^ This.

 

No way SWTOR is staying installed on my PC if it goes live like this - it just isn't.

 

A dogs dinner of an abomination of a gearing system along with 30 minutes Story and 6 month grind to get back to where I was BEFORE the patch?

 

I'd rather chew my own **** (< contains part of the name of the 7th Planet of our solar system).

 

All The Best

Edited October 12, 2019 by DarthSpuds

[ZionHalcyon]

So if you went to restaurant for a meal would you accept a plate of raw ingredients on the understanding that "it's close enough, with a few changes it could work really well"?

 

Or would you tell the Waiting Staff to take it back as ask the Chef to kindly actually %$^&*ng cook it?

 

No need to answer, we all already know what it would be.

 

If "with a few changes it could work really well" Bioware should get of their cheap, lazy asses and make those changes BEFORE subjecting us to this abomination.

 

All The Best

 

We're not really talking the same thing. What I've learned is that what you're demanding is unrealistic. It's like going into McDonald's and expecting a five-star dining experience. At some point you have to realize you're in a damn McDonalds.

[DarthSpuds]

We're not really talking the same thing. What I've learned is that what you're demanding is unrealistic. It's like going into McDonald's and expecting a five-star dining experience. At some point you have to realize you're in a damn McDonalds.

 

No, I'm expecting to go into McD's and be able to order a cooked, dressed quarter pounder and fries.

 

Bioware are offering some unwashed lettuce, unpeeled potatoes, and some raw beef mince - and which I actually get is down to RNG.

 

All The Best

Edited October 12, 2019 by DarthSpuds