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Chapter Difficulty Increase is Bad : Reach Shrine of Healing


TrixxieTriss

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I suspect the problem with chapter 1 of KoTET in the walker is the same as the one that occurs trying to do the mission Showdown on Iokath. The last part of that mission pits the player in a walker against 3 sentinel droids. On Live, the level 70 player has about 550K health. On the PTS, the level 75 player has about 115K health while each of the sentinels have about 478K health. The player won't survive the fight unless every attack from the sentinels can be perfectly avoided while still DPS'ing each of them down. I believe the cause is the incomplete implementation of Level Synch on the PTS. Bioware has stated several times that it has only been tuned in a few areas, like Hammer Station and Karagga's Palace.

 

So I think it not that Bioware intended to make the content harder, but because the current blanket application of Level Synch across the PTS fails to correctly account for some mechanics in certain places, like chapters 1 and 8 of KoTET, Iokath, and Ossus.

 

I agree 100% with this. It’s why I brought up the situation so they don’t “forget” to look at chapters like this and make sure it’s not a problem when it goes live.

 

I think people are going off point in this thread when all that’s really needed is some players to check each chapter and make notes to give Bioware the feed back.

 

We know the devs aren’t infallible, that’s why you beta test to look for stuff like this.

 

Can we please have some volunteers to run the chapters so this doesn’t get missed. Maybe a few of you could coordinate between yourselves to do x, y, z chapters while another does a, b, c chapters.

 

I would do it, but I’m current working on the gearing side of things and I don’t have time to run chapters when I’m looking for other bugs too.

Let’s split the work load a bit, pretty please with a Musco ontop :p

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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I suspect the problem with chapter 1 of KoTET in the walker is the same as the one that occurs trying to do the mission Showdown on Iokath. The last part of that mission pits the player in a walker against 3 sentinel droids. On Live, the level 70 player has about 550K health. On the PTS, the level 75 player has about 115K health while each of the sentinels have about 478K health. The player won't survive the fight unless every attack from the sentinels can be perfectly avoided while still DPS'ing each of them down. I believe the cause is the incomplete implementation of Level Synch on the PTS. Bioware has stated several times that it has only been tuned in a few areas, like Hammer Station and Karagga's Palace.

 

So I think it not that Bioware intended to make the content harder, but because the current blanket application of Level Synch across the PTS fails to correctly account for some mechanics in certain places, like chapters 1 and 8 of KoTET, Iokath, and Ossus.

 

I can totally see that.

I also totally see 6.0a, 6.0b, 6.0c emergency patches immediately following the initial release of 6.0 because whupsies are found throughout the game where planetsync wasn't addressed properly.

 

Why say that? It follows a pattern of major past releases, and looks like this:

 

Tuesday, October 22nd:

6.0 released

 

Wednesday: October 23d:

Dev announcement of profound bugs found and that a patch will go out Thursday

 

Thursday, October 24th:

6.0a

 

Sort of along the lines of:

10/20/2015 - Game Update 4.0: Knights of the Fallen Empire Early Access

10/22/2015 - Patch Notes 4.0a

 

or:

3/8/2016 - Game Update 4.2: Disavowed Patch Notes

3/10/2016 - 4.2a Patch Notes

 

or:

7/11/2017 - Game Update 5.3: Sisters of Carnage

7/13/2017 - Game Update 5.3a

 

or:

12/13/2016 - Game Update 5.0.1 Patch Notes

12/16/2016 - 5.0.1a Patch Notes

 

All I can say, hopefully we'll get more players onto PTS and testing before final code freeze pending release.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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I suspect the problem with chapter 1 of KoTET in the walker is the same as the one that occurs trying to do the mission Showdown on Iokath. The last part of that mission pits the player in a walker against 3 sentinel droids. On Live, the level 70 player has about 550K health. On the PTS, the level 75 player has about 115K health while each of the sentinels have about 478K health. The player won't survive the fight unless every attack from the sentinels can be perfectly avoided while still DPS'ing each of them down. I believe the cause is the incomplete implementation of Level Synch on the PTS. Bioware has stated several times that it has only been tuned in a few areas, like Hammer Station and Karagga's Palace.

 

So I think it not that Bioware intended to make the content harder, but because the current blanket application of Level Synch across the PTS fails to correctly account for some mechanics in certain places, like chapters 1 and 8 of KoTET, Iokath, and Ossus.

 

Respectfully..

 

Please consider this:

 

IMO .. the game was like that to begin with when playing KotFE / ET. Just for fun I created a Smuggler / Gunslinger just to walk through the entire process without stopping ( or to be more precise.. without playing any alts )… just to see how things changed. I tried to play the game straight through in Master Mode . I even tried several Heroics and Solo PF's that I have never done before (long story .. I'll talk about that later) ..... and succeeded until I hit KotFE. The difficulty level had changed .. SOMETHING CHANGED !! My character would last less than 4 seconds in combat at times. So I dropped back to Veteran. That worked !! (for the most part). I played a significant number of those in Veteran Mode... BUT I also found it necessary to drop back to story mode in some of the chapters due to how certain parts were designed. This was done when we had the last Double XP which lasted about a month IIRC.

EDIT: I also spent another 2 - 3 weeks finishing up the completion of said character all the way through Ossus, I used an occasional "boost" after level 70 just to see how I could do with CC's. Sorry .. I almost forgot that last part !

 

The point I'm making is simple: Some of those chapters had difficulties to begin with.

 

That said I do believe that there are some changes coming. IIRC there was a statement made by a member of the development team that there will be a certain amount of "culture shock" coming. It sounds like that statement is true !

Edited by OlBuzzard
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I set the difficulty and if it is too much of a pain then I will not play it again. I did the chapters exactly once completely. Tried to do it with a dark character but just could not stomach the loops and grind to do so. The rest of characters skipped to Kotet chapter one and then left it for Iokath which never got done either more than one or twice. For a few of my characters I have not gone passed Ziost. A few never saw a single chapter of kotfe kotet iokath and went straight to ossus. Did I want the stuff harder more grindy? Nope not at all. I do things smarter not harder. Challenging is one thing grindy and difficult just for being difficult is not challenging. Traitor among the Chiss I did once or twice solo is a perfect example of grindy. Too many mobs too much to do the bonus too much health on mobs that didn't do more than waist your time.
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so phase three starts and deals with heroics, missions, and chapters on top of whether a new ability is too weak or too strong.

 

Hate to bust your post but you were too soon on this one.

 

However did you get a chance with the few hours that it was up to retest it?

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We already have Vet and MM chapters. SM chapters do not need a difficulty increase and probably nobody (that plays SM) asked for it.

 

Agree, no one ask for a diffuculty increase exapt some stupid elitists. It seems they want to drive away most of there Players. No one need a wildstar v2.0.

 

Let difficulty as it was, don't increase points for personal conquest goal.

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so phase three starts and deals with heroics, missions, and chapters on top of whether a new ability is too weak or too strong.

 

Hate to bust your post but you were too soon on this one.

 

However did you get a chance with the few hours that it was up to retest it?

 

Nope, I was asleep when it came back up. And yes, it seems I may have been premature with the feed back.

If the pts isn’t back up today and some of the weekend, I doubt I’ll get much of a chance to test anything.

It might be up to some others to retest this chapter.

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Agree, no one ask for a diffuculty increase exapt some stupid elitists.

 

You do realise that NOBODY asked for the story mode chapters or any of the chapter modes to be made more difficult.

There was already 3 difficulty levels present in the chapters and flash points. Story mode, veteran and master. So I don’t know who these elitists are you are referring to because they don’t exist.

 

Were older swtor players saying the vanilla part of the game had become too easy over the years with all the changes. Yes we were. I’ll admit I was one of those and I’m not ashamed of it. The game did become way to easy in vanilla mode, you could face roll the keyboard with crap gear on and still not die because lvl sync wasn’t calibrated properly and comps were OP in vanilla content.

 

But at not time did I suggest they make it harder than now for solo players who’d gotten use to playing the game on simple mode. What myself and many others suggested was a way to select the difficulty we played at via a veteran type instance.

Now before someone uses the old argument, “you can turn you comps off or dismiss them” to make it harder, I already do if I want a challenge, but even that’s not enough because everything is a one shot kill with an AOE. Ive literally ran vanilla content by just spamming my number ability the whole time

Still I have never asked for Bioware to Take it away from casual players. Once again, all that was asked for was some way for “individuals” to select the difficulty and play the game as it was intended. Either through another instance or turning down our own lvl sync and comp power.

 

There are no elitists here, only people trying to test to make sure “you are still able to play the game” with the changes they’ve made.

 

If you ask me, you should be grateful the “elitist” people are testing this for you if you are not willing to test it yourself.

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Chapter 1. Wrath and Ruin : Reach Shrine of Healing

 

The increase in difficulty to get the walker through this chapter is hard for someone who can play well and change strategy and tactics.

And even then, it’s nearly impossible to get past the last droid boss for me.

This is something I can usually do in my sleep, so yeah it was too easy for me in the live version.

But even the live version is hard for my wife. I often have to do it for her, so when she said this was harder I didn’t believe her at first till I tried it.

 

The level of difficulty in this chapter under story mode will be beyond a lot of players to do.

 

The increased amount of mobs and damage they do is hard. There also aren’t enough med bays to recharge if you are going to have each group do so much damage.

So even if you just get past a bunch, you know the next lot will kill you or you have to sit there for 5 minutes till your health goes up.

 

I’m a bit embarrassed to admit that I died 7 times on the way to the Walker boss at the end. And he killed me 3 times. In the end I gave up because it’s the PTS and it was wasting my time when I could have been doing other things.

 

I think you need to get some average / casual players testing the new difficulty increases across all the chapters. I’ve only tested that one and I don’t plan on testing the others. I’m sure most of the chapters will be fine, but you might find there are some anomalies like this chapter’s mechanics that are set too high.

 

Chapter 1: Wrath and Ruin : Reach Shrine of Healing and see it also Trixxie. That is inside story difficulty Eternal Throne. Player Tank Walker is weak to use in the battle will get become junk scrap by anywhere after you start to use it. I rather use 2 companions at the same time for story difficulty, veteran difficulty or flash point need use 3 companions at the same time and Master difficulty or Operations need to use 7 companions at the same time. Their getting recklessness on difficulty level changes that is not how the story works. Maybe their the same DEV that did the Star Wars Galaxies before EA and Bioware buying out those location Austin TX use to be SOE that is our problem here. Game is getting there become recklessness fall apart. Not sure their getting a 3rd chance make another game after the second one becomes broken. 3rd chance will be their visit to court for approval. Folks don't like their hard work inside the game become something that is going to be gone. Make the game last forever is good as make up your mind. Make the game great again.

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We already have Vet and MM chapters. SM chapters do not need a difficulty increase and probably nobody (that plays SM) asked for it.

 

As a casual solo player myself if these changes make it into the live version then BW are effectively making solo players like myself having nothing to do. I totally agree with you Balameb there is little to know point in having Vet and MM mode versions if SM is now groups as well. If I have nothing to do then have no reason to stay.

 

I am all for there been group modes to cater for that play style, it does not need to be at the expense of solo players. With 3 different versions both solo and groups can enjoy the game. So for Flashpoints I don't see the issue at all. As for Chapters, I personally agree with what Trixx said (twice in one week!.....what's happening?), I don't speck for others players but for me personally I'd just have little reason to stay. Other players will do what's best for them on an individual bases.

 

It is worth remembering that when Ossus was on PTS it was also hard to do as you were given free 252/258 gear plus augments to play on PTS with, still much more difficult than now once Ossus went live. it can easily be done in 230 gear. So at present time I'm not overly worried.

 

In the end it's up to BW what ends up in the live version, but if some solo players leave, well BW already know that's a possibility going forward if these changes are made.

Edited by DreadtechSavant
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Chapter 1: Wrath and Ruin : Reach Shrine of Healing and see it also Trixxie. That is inside story difficulty Eternal Throne. Player Tank Walker is weak to use in the battle will get become junk scrap by anywhere after you start to use it. I rather use 2 companions at the same time for story difficulty, veteran difficulty or flash point need use 3 companions at the same time and Master difficulty or Operations need to use 7 companions at the same time. Their getting recklessness on difficulty level changes that is not how the story works. Maybe their the same DEV that did the Star Wars Galaxies before EA and Bioware buying out those location Austin TX use to be SOE that is our problem here. Game is getting there become recklessness fall apart. Not sure their getting a 3rd chance make another game after the second one becomes broken. 3rd chance will be their visit to court for approval. Folks don't like their hard work inside the game become something that is going to be gone. Make the game last forever is good as make up your mind. Make the game great again.

 

The problem is what one person considers GREAT others do not, so making a game great for everyone is an impossibility for any gaming company. They can only try to do the best they can and hope enough people like what they are doing.

 

1)If one person thinks Making the game great is through Group content, the solo players won't be happy

2) if someone thinks making the game great is through Solo content the Group players are unhappy.

3) If someone thinks making the game great is through PvP, then PvE players are unhappy.

 

See where I'm going with this? The issues is Each group needs special attention and balance (which is impossible in any MMO for class balance), and it simply isn't possible to do it for every group. Keep in mind this all takes massive funding, and it appears that BW doesn't get enough funding from EA for that.

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IMO Trixx … this is what many demanded: a more difficult game to play. We are getting what was requested.

 

No, this is not the difficulty increase players were asking for. Players were asking to have an option for vanilla content, particularly instanced chapter bosses, to be brought back up to where they were pre-4.0. People were not asking for FE/ET story chapters to be made harder since harder modes already exist for them.

 

Don't blame this on the players. If this change was based on player feedback, the developers have truly awful reading comprehension skills.

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Based on Trixxie's description in the other thread, this really sounds like a straight-up error rather than an intentional change. If they wanted to make story mode significantly harder for some strange reason, surely they would change the whole chapter, not just the walker section. Either way, I hope they correct the problem. It sounds intensely frustrating as-is.
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No, this is not the difficulty increase players were asking for. Players were asking to have an option for vanilla content, particularly instanced chapter bosses, to be brought back up to where they were pre-4.0. People were not asking for FE/ET story chapters to be made harder since harder modes already exist for them.

 

Don't blame this on the players. If this change was based on player feedback, the developers have truly awful reading comprehension skills.

 

Respectfully...

 

I wish to disagree with you. But I have read a number of posts which insist that ever since KotFE was released BW has catered to the solo player which is substantially responsible for the current low numbers of players that the game is experiencing.

 

For whatever it is worth... My disagreement is not with you or your post in so much as it is understanding that with changes in what we are experiencing in PTS … just about any aspect that you play in the game ( ON PTS) will be affected to some degree in other areas.

 

No... I do not have the exact statistics at my disposal. I really wish that I did ! What I can tell you is that last night before I called a night I did run some PF's from Odessen that I have managed to complete before testing on PTS... I was unable to complete them. Normal trash mobs were about the same as usual... but I did run into difficulties when I encountered larger Mobs ( Crisis on Embara for example).

 

But .. IMO this will all be irrelevant. I would expect only a few minor adjustments of any sort between now a the release of 6.0 It will be up to each player to choose the best course of action when dealing with the new release.

 

As for the development team... IMO … they know exactly what they have in mind for 6.0.

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Anyone who asked for harder story mode, should have been answered :

- Do Vet (hard) or Master mode

- Strip off your 248+ gear with augments an put on flat 210/220 gear, if not 190.

- Don't use heroic moments to save your arse on bosses.

 

 

Solo players or any players who like to do the story for the sake of watching/feel the story, certainly didn't complained about the difficulty, here on the forum. And they never thought to themselve : hey, I should look at the forum to make sure no one ask for harder story mode. So their voice (like mine) were not heard for a reason.

Edited by ytrenor
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Here’s the write for the pts 3 test

So I ran Chapter 1. Wrath and Ruin : Reach Shrine of Healing (Walker)

 

This is so unbalanced :mad: sorry just really :mad:

 

Feed back :

 

* Still a lot more mobs at the start than on live.

* Died after first two groups of mobs because there is no where to heal.

* Get to 3rd group and have less than a 1/4 health. So I waited 2 mins till I could attack the next lot with 75% health, but died right as I killed the last one.

* So died twice before the first health station due to the large amount of added mobs before it,

* Got through the pass with some good tactics on my part. But more than the usual number of mobs and I had to go back to the repair station to use it before proceeding (I had planned to leave it if I needed it).

* Died again just as I killed the last mob near the 2nd repair bay.

* Kill a few more groups and find I’ve no health and the repair bay is next to a group of mobs.

* Decide to suicide kill them because it’s faster than waiting to regain health. The problem with that is everytime you die, you have to go all the way back to the beginning and trudge your way back (what a waste of time)

* Get to the boss. At this point I’ve now died 5 times.

 

My Boss fight deaths trying to kill the last walker in this phase.

1st Got him to 1/2 health before his adds blew me up

2nd. Got him to 1/3 health till I died

3rd. Got him to 1/2 health

** at this point I start to realise it comes down to where his adds spawn (because they are different each encounter).

4th. Got him down to 1/3 health

5th. Got him down to 1/3 health

** realise that his adds will drop in a group if you stand in a some places, but only once. After that they are in an X formation, one on each corner.

6th. Got him down to 1/4 health because I stood in the right place to make them drop in a group

7th. Got him to 1/8 because I discover if you stand on the steps to the temple, his first add drops disappear after a minute.

8th. Nearly had him, got killed with him at 1/10 health.

** start thinking this will only happen if all the stars align. Ready to give up.

9th. Didn’t die and a I Kill him, JUST, as my walker explodes from his adds. They proceed to chase me into the temple

And I kill them with my light sabre in one hit. Makes me wish I could just do that the whole way :rolleyes:

 

Total number of deaths to get through this phase (that I can breeze through on veteran in live) was 13 deaths. It also took a considerable amount of time because of all the walking back from the start area.

 

Conclusion : extra mobs on the way to the temple have been added that have more health and the collective group can do more damage.

The boss has higher health compare to before and his adds hit harder. If you aren’t lucky and tactical, you will never get past this boss. I know my wife couldn’t and she is mostly a Story only player. She has categorically stated she will be unsubbing if this isn’t fixed because she plays for fun and to relax, Not to be stressed and upset through no fault of her own (I don’t like seeing her upset, you meanies :confused:) I told her it’s testing and to chill :eek:

 

Suggestions :

1. If you are going to add all these extra mobs, you need more repair stations to deal with it after you kill them and they need to respawn the repair stations if you die,. You’ve already added an ammo dump before the first repair area, why not add a repair bay there?

2. Either reduce the numbers of mobs, or reduce their health more.

3. That last Bosses health is too high and his adds basically one shot you.

 

Statement :

This is completely unbalanced and over the top for a Story mode section. The rest of the chapter, both before and after the walker phase is fine and balanced. It was even a bit too easy for me (which is why I usually do it on veteran).

But this was Story Mode, I cant even imagine how impossible it would be on veteran or master mode, LOL.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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As TrixxieTriss suggested, I tested another chapter on the PTS, KoTET Chapter 8: End Times

 

Story mode delivers a thorough thrashing to the level 75 character. The elite Skywalker at the fork in the road blocks progress (he may be unkillable -- I gave up.) However, rerunning the same chapter using the same character copied again over to the PTS left at 70 easily turned the situation around.

 

I posted the detail over on the World Content Balance thread.

Edited by TerraStomper
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Anyone who asked for harder story mode, should have been answered :

- Do Vet (hard) or Master mode

- Strip off your 248+ gear with augments an put on flat 210/220 gear, if not 190.

- Don't use heroic moments to save your arse on bosses.

 

 

Solo players or any players who like to do the story for the sake of watching/feel the story, certainly didn't complained about the difficulty, here on the forum. And they never thought to themselve : hey, I should look at the forum to make sure no one ask for harder story mode. So their voice (like mine) were not heard for a reason.

I think it's safe to state that when it comes to the KotFE/ET chapters nobody really asked for a harder Story Mode because there are harder versions available.

 

I personally think that the vanilla story and many of the SM Ops boss fights have become ridiculously easy and could use adjustment. For SM Ops I just want the old mechanics back in and for the vanilla story I'll be interested to see what the companion heal nerf will do.

 

But if they actually mean to make SM chapters for KotFE/ET harder then I'm not sure why they want to do that because that's the one place where it's not needed. It is however frustrating at the moment to run into so many players in ops like Ravagers where they didn't take out all the mechanics like Master and Blaster and people just not being interested in learning mechanics because they are trained not to have to care about them in almost every other SM boss fight. Then I say make them all easy or bring back the old mechanics that used to be in SM.

 

I have the same problem with FPs where the difficulty can vary considerably but they are all stuck in the same GF for characters level 15+

 

In a way I do hope they'll make that better at least by the new approach of using level sync rather than bolster but again, for these KotFE/ET story chapters I don't think anyone needs a harder SM because you can go straight to the harder modes. You don't even have to unlock SM to go th VM/MM.

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Respectfully...

 

I wish to disagree with you. But I have read a number of posts which insist that ever since KotFE was released BW has catered to the solo player which is substantially responsible for the current low numbers of players that the game is experiencing.

 

For whatever it is worth... My disagreement is not with you or your post in so much as it is understanding that with changes in what we are experiencing in PTS … just about any aspect that you play in the game ( ON PTS) will be affected to some degree in other areas.

 

No... I do not have the exact statistics at my disposal. I really wish that I did ! What I can tell you is that last night before I called a night I did run some PF's from Odessen that I have managed to complete before testing on PTS... I was unable to complete them. Normal trash mobs were about the same as usual... but I did run into difficulties when I encountered larger Mobs ( Crisis on Embara for example).

 

But .. IMO this will all be irrelevant. I would expect only a few minor adjustments of any sort between now a the release of 6.0 It will be up to each player to choose the best course of action when dealing with the new release.

 

As for the development team... IMO … they know exactly what they have in mind for 6.0.

 

Don't worry. You aren't disagreeing with me. My post and your post are about two different things.

 

My post was about players asking for vanilla content to be restored to vanilla difficulty. That's not a group vs. solo thing. A lot of solo players, myself included, believe that the 4.0 changes to vanilla content went way overboard on making leveling content, especially the signature chapter boss fights, too easy.

 

Your post was about raiders blaming everything wrong with SWtOR on solo players and the solo focus of KotFE, which I agree is ridiculous.

 

Personally, I don't think the issue people are having is a design decisions, but unintended consequences from poorly tested adjustments. The time I spent doing quests on Onderon today reaffirmed that for me. In 268 gear and with a weapon and shield stripped of stats from the last update, the dailies were no harder than any dailies on live. If they wanted the over all difficulty of solo content to be jacked up they wouldn't have created the new solo content to be so easy. They would have designed it to be at the newer, harder difficulty they are targeting.

 

They screwed up some numbers somewhere, and the question really needs to be if they are going to acknowledge it and be able to fix it before this goes live. I have serious doubts that Onslaught will be in good shape come launch date. The poor programmers are probably already burned out from extended crunch time.

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Here’s the write for the pts 3 test

 

I believe I have an explanation for you, Trixxie--and its quite incredible.

 

I ran Reach the Shrine of Healing on Live and on PTS. I made a startling discovery.

 

Walker HP on Live: 409658

Walker HP on PTS: 114103

 

The Walker HP on Live is 3.59 times greater than on PTS. This is unacceptable.

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Don't worry. You aren't disagreeing with me. My post and your post are about two different things.

 

My post was about players asking for vanilla content to be restored to vanilla difficulty. That's not a group vs. solo thing. A lot of solo players, myself included, believe that the 4.0 changes to vanilla content went way overboard on making leveling content, especially the signature chapter boss fights, too easy.

 

Your post was about raiders blaming everything wrong with SWtOR on solo players and the solo focus of KotFE, which I agree is ridiculous.

 

Personally, I don't think the issue people are having is a design decisions, but unintended consequences from poorly tested adjustments. The time I spent doing quests on Onderon today reaffirmed that for me. In 268 gear and with a weapon and shield stripped of stats from the last update, the dailies were no harder than any dailies on live. If they wanted the over all difficulty of solo content to be jacked up they wouldn't have created the new solo content to be so easy. They would have designed it to be at the newer, harder difficulty they are targeting.

 

They screwed up some numbers somewhere, and the question really needs to be if they are going to acknowledge it and be able to fix it before this goes live. I have serious doubts that Onslaught will be in good shape come launch date. The poor programmers are probably already burned out from extended crunch time.

 

AH OK... you're correct .. a misunderstanding on my part !!

 

And for whatever it's worth I agree with this post ! And as you have indicated: there has to be tons of programming that goes into even the slightest change.

 

At any rate.. I do appreciate the clarification !

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