You Can't Change Your Advanced Class!?!?!

[Sigmundr]

Alright, I get where OP is coming from. Now, before you guys start in with the Ad hominem attacks, and other comments, here's WHY I see where he's coming from.

 

I made by Bounty Hunter (Currently a level 40 Mercenary) day 1 of my early access. Now, I did take the time to decide what I wanted to be, based on what the text descriptions told me. HOWEVER, and this is the big issue, there was no way I could've known exactly what high level play would've been like with that advanced class at that time. (No test server yet, to my knowledge, before someone starts screaming about it). Now, I'd love the option to switch to power tech, rather than spend another 3 weeks leveling my character back up to 40 (Along with the Valor levels, Social levels, Legacy levels etc). Bioware doesn't seem to want to offer this opportunity to people, when really, these advanced classes are just glorified specs when you get down into the meat and bones of each one. And NO, just because one allows you to stab people IN ADDITION to electrocuting them with the force DOES NOT mean it's a separate class. It is NOT the massive difference between a completely melee oriented class in World of Let's-all-use-this-game-as-our-only-reference-craft and a caster from the same game. You won't see that caster starting with the same abilities, nor will you see them continuing to share 60%, 30%, OR ANY of their abilities with that melee class, will you.

 

For those who STILL insist that you'll be able to make an educated decision for your advanced class without actually PLAYING it; When I first heard about TOR, I wanted to make a trooper. I spent hours looking up all sorts of information about troopers, their advanced classes, their story line, companions, etc. When I received my beta invitation, something that not everyone was lucky enough to get, I happily rolled a trooper, the class I had waited so long to play, which I thought I knew all about. After actually playing the class, it really hit me. I was very bored, the class wasn't fun, and I absolutely HATED it. But hey, I should've known I'd hate it so much from what was said about the class, rather than through my own experience with it, right? Wrong. That's a logical fallacy. You need to experience something to really get a feel for it. No amount of text can adequately replace solid experience. So, honestly, to say "Well, you should've known all about this Advanced class, right down to it's mechanics, and the personal enjoyment you'll get out of it from the small paragraph that's under it, along with a skill tree at the advanced class menu" is just absolute garbage.

 

Possible solution? Offer a service to switch advanced classes. Make people pay for it. $15 dollars, and you save 3 weeks. Not everyone has the time to dedicate to rolling multiple versions of the same class, just so they can modify their play style. Everyone (Even the nay-sayers who will more than likely use the feature themselves, and forget about their whole hatred for it) would benefit from a system like that. Bioware gets more money, players are happy, and subscriptions stay active. As much as I know some people will whine and complain that such a system would take away from the game in some obscure manner that really doesn't even effect them (they just like to whine about games not being HARDCORE because that's what they're into, and therefore so should everyone else. (You're the minority, by the way, stop assuming you aren't)), it's up to the player who BOUGHT THE GAME, because it's THEIR MONEY. If they want to change, let them. If you don't want to change, or even acknowledge the existence of the feature, then don't. I for one find it exceedingly annoying when these pretentious, obnoxious, condescending people try to tell others how to play, and enjoy a game they PAID for. You can't live someone else's life for them, don't try to play their games for them, either.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sigmundr

[karmatic]

Alright, I get where OP is coming from. Now, before you guys start in with the Ad hominem attacks, and other comments, here's WHY I see where he's coming from.

 

I made by Bounty Hunter (Currently a level 40 Mercenary) day 1 of my early access. Now, I did take the time to decide what I wanted to be, based on what the text descriptions told me. HOWEVER, and this is the big issue, there was no way I could've known exactly what high level play would've been like with that advanced class at that time. (No test server yet, to my knowledge, before someone starts screaming about it). Now, I'd love the option to switch to power tech, rather than spend another 3 weeks leveling my character back up to 40 (Along with the Valor levels, Social levels, Legacy levels etc). Bioware doesn't seem to want to offer this opportunity to people, when really, these advanced classes are just glorified specs when you get down into the meat and bones of each one. And NO, just because one allows you to stab people IN ADDITION to electrocuting them with the force DOES NOT mean it's a separate class. It is NOT the massive difference between a completely melee oriented class in World of Let's-all-use-this-game-as-our-only-reference-craft and a caster from the same game. You won't see that caster starting with the same abilities, nor will you see them continuing to share 60%, 30%, OR ANY of their abilities with that melee class, will you.

 

They are not glorfied specializations. They are seperate classes. People keep bringing up hybrid classes from WoW to make their case. BioWare has flat out said they do not want hybrids. They don't even want hybrid specs. So, that said, a Sorcerer and an Assassin are not even close to being the same class, even though they are both inquisitors. You can respec your class to perform different roles, and those roles play differently. If I decide I want to tank as an Assassin, my DPS will suffer, if I decide to DPS, I will get frogstomped if I try to tank. Even how I DPS will change depending on the tree I decide to pick. The same with Bounty Hunters, Merc: DPS/Heal, Powertech: DPS/Tank. Different gear choices (somewhat), different playstyles.

 

For those who STILL insist that you'll be able to make an educated decision for your advanced class without actually PLAYING it; When I first heard about TOR, I wanted to make a trooper. I spent hours looking up all sorts of information about troopers, their advanced classes, their story line, companions, etc. When I received my beta invitation, something that not everyone was lucky enough to get, I happily rolled a trooper, the class I had waited so long to play, which I thought I knew all about. After actually playing the class, it really hit me. I was very bored, the class wasn't fun, and I absolutely HATED it. But hey, I should've known I'd hate it so much from what was said about the class, rather than through my own experience with it, right? Wrong. That's a logical fallacy. You need to experience something to really get a feel for it. No amount of text can adequately replace solid experience. So, honestly, to say "Well, you should've known all about this Advanced class, right down to it's mechanics, and the personal enjoyment you'll get out of it from the small paragraph that's under it, along with a skill tree at the advanced class menu" is just absolute garbage.

 

How is this different from any other game? The only difference is you make the choice twice. You pick your class, you get a basic sense of combat with it. At level 10, you are given a choice, and realistically, from the description you should have an idea of how it's going to pan out. If you found 1-10 tedious, you look at the description of the AC and see which direction your gameplay will go, then go from there. I chose not to play a smuggler exactly because of this. Most games you start at 1 with a broad idea then after awhile you love it or you quit, or you talk to other folks and try to figure out if it's going to get better.

 

 

Possible solution? Offer a service to switch advanced classes. Make people pay for it. $15 dollars, and you save 3 weeks. Not everyone has the time to dedicate to rolling multiple versions of the same class, just so they can modify their play style. Everyone (Even the nay-sayers who will more than likely use the feature themselves, and forget about their whole hatred for it) would benefit from a system like that. Bioware gets more money, players are happy, and subscriptions stay active. As much as I know some people will whine and complain that such a system would take away from the game in some obscure manner that really doesn't even effect them (they just like to whine about games not being HARDCORE because that's what they're into, and therefore so should everyone else. (You're the minority, by the way, stop assuming you aren't)), it's up to the player who BOUGHT THE GAME, because it's THEIR MONEY. If they want to change, let them. If you don't want to change, or even acknowledge the existence of the feature, then don't. I for one find it exceedingly annoying when these pretentious, obnoxious, condescending people try to tell others how to play, and enjoy a game they PAID for. You can't live someone else's life for them, don't try to play their games for them, either.

 

The basic fact is, the game forces you to make choices, and those choices matter. People keep bringing up WoW, and all the choices you get in that game. What a lot of people don't remember is that initially in that game, you didn't get those choices. You picked your class, you chose your role, and you could change it, for a price, and that price went up quickly the more you did it. This game is no different, except that you don't really pick your class until level 10. At 10 you pick your class. You can change your specialization within that class at any time. For a fee.

 

Over time WoW instituted all the changes that people are crying on here about now. Because of those changes, they have had to revamp systems as far as stats and armor, etc, with pretty much every expansion, and half the major patches. Every major patch, people whine that their FOTM is no longer viable, and they have to reroll. Or, people whine that something was broken, or some other class is OP, etc. The constant caving in to the playerbase took what was once an enjoyable game, and pretty much killed it.

 

I like that you have to make choices. I like that those choices matter. That doesn't make me hardcore. I like that this game is not WoW, or a WoW clone.

 

As far as the OP, if you didn't know your choice was permanent, that is your fault. It tells you a number of times that you cannot change your choice. Part of the problem is that people got too used to games like WoW, where you don't have to pay attention, where the story doesn't really matter, and where your only choices involve loot.

[JaspahX]

How is this different from any other game? The only difference is you make the choice twice. You pick your class, you get a basic sense of combat with it. At level 10, you are given a choice, and realistically, from the description you should have an idea of how it's going to pan out. If you found 1-10 tedious, you look at the description of the AC and see which direction your gameplay will go, then go from there. I chose not to play a smuggler exactly because of this. Most games you start at 1 with a broad idea then after awhile you love it or you quit, or you talk to other folks and try to figure out if it's going to get better.

 

I don't know why people are having so much trouble understanding this...

 

In WoW, you pick your class at level 1 and you can NEVER change that.

 

In SWTOR, you pick your class at level 1, get a feel for things, hit level 10, and get to choose one of two advanced classes with different playstyles.

 

 

If anything, SWTOR definitely made the right choice in defining how people pick and play their classes. I would much rather spend my first 10 levels getting a feel for my class and then finding what I like and dislike. Being able to base my advanced class choice off of that is awesome.

[LilTikiBoy]

I don't know why people are having so much trouble understanding this...

 

In WoW, you pick your class at level 1 and you can NEVER change that.

 

In SWTOR, you pick your class at level 1, get a feel for things, hit level 10, and get to choose one of two advanced classes with different playstyles.

 

 

If anything, SWTOR definitely made the right choice in defining how people pick and play their classes. I would much rather spend my first 10 levels getting a feel for my class and then finding what I like and dislike. Being able to base my advanced class choice off of that is awesome.

 

i dont even consider the class you pick at lvl 1 a true class, its more like story selection.

[TROOPERXVI]

That's why I say that they should change it so that people pick their class at level 1, even if the first 9 levels have the same skills. Then this sort of thing would not be an issue. EQ2 had this sort of leveling system at release, and it was eventually changed.

 

u know what I have not thought about that and would have to agree. But to some degree I also disagree, because choosing at 10 just makes it a little more fun and epic.. Besides. it only takes like 2-3 hours to get to lvl 10.

[JaspahX]

i dont even consider the class you pick at lvl 1 a true class, its more like story selection.

 

Honestly I feel like it's just enough to show you the basics of the two advanced classes. I think that's a neat way to do the full class selection.

[Sigmundr]

Words.

 

>And NO, just because one allows you to stab people IN ADDITION to electrocuting them with the force DOES NOT mean it's a separate class. It is NOT the massive difference between a completely melee oriented class in World of Let's-all-use-this-game-as-our-only-reference-craft and a caster from the same game. You won't see that caster starting with the same abilities, nor will you see them continuing to share 60%, 30%, OR ANY of their abilities with that melee class, will you.

 

They aren't seperate classes. Rant about it all you want. If they were seperate classes, they wouldn't share 1) Over half of the same abilities 2) The same story 3) The same EVERYTHING aside from the armor you wear, depending on what role you're looking to fill. So, sounding a lot like specs, aren't they.

 

 

Well, I didn't have any trouble, so that means neither should you.

 

1) You said yourself that the game is -DIFFERENT-, and then asked "Lol how is this different".

 

2) You assume because you had no trouble when you picked your 'Class' and enjoyed it, so should everyone else.

 

3) I'm well aware that you start out with an 'idea'. You still need EXPERIENCE. If you're really going to sit there and say "Lol, you should know 90% of everything about your class, including how it's going to play" based only on a small description, and other people's opinions, then I'd hate to see how you choose a real job.

 

 

 

 

The basic fact is, I just want to play the game for you, and my opinion is the only one that matters. I'm selfish, and because I like something, so should everyone else.

 

1) Being able to change advanced classes would NOT make TOR a 'WoW Clone'. Why? WELL, LET'S SEE. First, it's set in the Star Wars universe. Second, it's the first fully voiced, cinematic experience in an MMO (WoW didn't do that? Holy Sh-t! I didn't know that!). And third, THE GAMES ARE NOTHING ALIKE.

 

2) You like choices that 'matter'. You're saying the choice wouldn't matter anymore, if you'd have to spend MORE money on the game to alter them? That choice matters a hell of a lot more than anything else that happens in the game, because it hits you where it counts. In real life, and in the wallet. Once again, if you like choices that 'matter' so much, by all means, you could just ignore a system. You aren't the majority, and you certainly aren't the deciding factor. They'll more than likely implement something similar to what I suggested in the future because of the MASSIVE amount of people who want it, and you'll just have to 'Deal with it', the same way you and everyone like you keeps telling everyone else to 'deal with it'.

 

3) Did you buy me the game? What? You didn't? Then why are you trying to play it for me? Why are you telling me how I should enjoy my (expensive) experience with it? The only thing that comes to mind, is that you have some sort of sense of entitlement, because you're that weird kind of person that REALLY enjoys being stuck into something, even if it's a decision you really don't like. Either that, or you're the person who just has all the free time in the world, and can easily spend weeks at a time, day and night rerolling, and leveling a character back to 50 if you want to modify your gameplay ever so slightly.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sigmundr

[Zirith]

Games evolve. This one originally had 4 classes (and 4 *stories*) on each side.

 

Towards the end, they wanted more variability, so they added advanced classes, 2 for each, which doubled the number of "classes".

 

However, this was much too late (and it would be much too costly) to try and create *4 MORE STORIES FOR BOTH SIDES INCLUDING ALL THE VOICE SCRIPTING AND QUEST LINES*.... so they didn't. They just made the extra classes "variants" of the "main" classes.

 

A short cut? Yes. Business needs inspired? Yes. Remember, this is a business to them, first and foremost.

 

Is it a hassle? Maybe. But it only takes about 3 hours to get to level 10, if that. It's not a *HUGE* deal in an MMO where people normally rack up 200 *days* of playtime on a character.

 

Small investment, low cost to change, saves a lot of real dollars in development... seems like a no-brainer decision (and the right one) to me.

[Nunchi]

In Ultima Online you can be a sword wielding plate armor person and if you wish turn into a robe wearing nox mage.

this game is totally based off of ultima online

[PinnyFox]

The main issue I'm seeing here is people aren't seeing the ACs as their actual classes. They see "Oh I can choose from one of these" and instantly think "Since it's a choice, it must be changable and must not be changing my core gameplay!" which is the main problem.

 

Unfortunately for some people, I'm agreeing with the people who don't think you should change your AC. Why? You're given two opportunities to see what AC does what, what their role is, what armor and weapons they use, etc: At the character creation screen, you can see what classes get what ACs, and at level 10.

 

If you're a bounty hunter, you choose mercenary because the role is healer/dps, or because you liked how they dual wield blasters and still have heavy armor and rockets. Likewise, you choose powertech because they're tank/dps.

 

And to be quite honest, the whole "oh I chose the wrong AC on accident" excuse is null and void. It's not as if your mouse starts out on one of the AC's select button, and it's not as if the two select buttons are really close together and it's really just "hoping you remember which side is which AC." No, the ACs are CLEARLY marked, and are separated. The only reason you'd "choose by accident" is if you didn't take the time to read and clicked randomly. In which case, you deserve what happens, since you couldn't take the extra second or two to look for the name/role of the AC you wanted, but instead wanted to get this over with NOW NOW NOW OOPS I SCREWED UP WAAAAAAH.

 

 

 

 

Continuing with the bounty hunter, you choose mercenary because you wanted to be a healer who can DPS, or a DPS who can offheal. You don't choose mercenary because "oh I want to heal one day but if our tanks aren't on I'll just switch to tank." It's the exact same thing in WoW. Did you roll a priest because you wanted to be able to switch to a tank later down the road? No, I'm pretty sure you rolled a priest because you wanted to be a healer. Same deal with the ACs.

 

 

Of course, the sad thing about this is no matter what people say, others will constantly whine and cry about wanting to be able to change their class whenever they want "because it's a choice" regardless of what other people say. And they will continue to do so until either A. Bioware caves in and gives them what they want, or B. they get themselves banned because they start outright flaming and trolling others.

Edited January 8, 2012 by PinnyFox

[Sigmundr]

The main issue I'm seeing here is people aren't seeing the ACs as their actual classes. They see "Oh I can choose from one of these" and instantly think "Since it's a choice, it must be changable and must not be changing my core gameplay!" which is the main problem.

 

Hmm, I wonder WHY people do this. Maybe because they are NOT actual classes. They are SPECIALIZATIONS. Try to argue that they aren't all you want. The fact is, they don't completely change the game when you pick them. It's for this very reason that ONE OF THE TALENT TREES ARE SHARED NO MATTER WHAT AC YOU CHOOSE (IE Pyrotech). Know what that means? 60% of your abilities are also shared with another so called 'unique class'.

 

Unfortunately for some people, I'm agreeing with the people who don't think you should change your AC. Why? You're given two opportunities to see what AC does what, what their role is, what armor and weapons they use, etc: At the character creation screen, you can see what classes get what ACs, and at level 10.

 

First off, why's your disapproval so unfortunate again? Anyway, let's see here. You get a small paragraph, which is really just two sentences long, which is apparently supposed to tell you everything you'll EVER need to know about that advanced class, without, you know.. experiencing it. Also, there's a pretty big difference between combat at level 10, and level 50. Do you know how GREAT PvP is as a Mercenary? Hope you like tracer missiles, because that's 90% of what you're doing. Sound fun? Of course not. Was this said in the trite class description? Nope. But please, continue to parade your so-called 'wisdom' that's been endowed upon you by your ever-so-precious paragraph.

 

If you're a bounty hunter, you choose mercenary because the role is healer/dps, or because you liked how they dual wield blasters and still have heavy armor and rockets. Likewise, you choose powertech because they're tank/dps.

 

You lost me at the part where you assumed everyone chooses classes based on the same reasoning. I personally chose Mercenary because from what I read, and from the skills I looked at, they sounded like they were pretty neat, and they had some utility with the healing role. Does this mean everyone will find this fun? No, it doesn't. Is it my fault for choosing a class that sounded interesting, when it later turned out not to be? No, not really. I went off the information I was given. If it worked out for you, that's great! You don't represent everyone who plays the game.

 

And to be quite honest, the whole "oh I chose the wrong AC on accident" excuse is null and void. It's not as if your mouse starts out on one of the AC's select button, and it's not as if the two select buttons are really close together and it's really just "hoping you remember which side is which AC." No, the ACs are CLEARLY marked, and are separated. The only reason you'd "choose by accident" is if you didn't take the time to read and clicked randomly. In which case, you deserve what happens, since you couldn't take the extra second or two to look for the name/role of the AC you wanted, but instead wanted to get this over with NOW NOW NOW OOPS I SCREWED UP WAAAAAAH.

 

Who chose by accident again? Believe I explained in detail that I looked pretty carefully at the choices, and picked what sounded interesting. Turned out not to be as great as it had sounded. Perhaps you should read a little more carefully ;].

 

 

 

 

I'm going to continue the trend of comparing TOR to another game, because I really just don't have a valid arguement without pulling in something that's completely different.

 

0/10, Logical Fallacy. However, I'll humor you for a second here; If you roll a character in WoW that's capable of healing, tanking, and DPS, like say.. a Paladin.. you CAN change between specs at will. You can DPS one day, tank another, and then finish the day by healing your way through a raid, if you've got the proper gear.

 

 

 

Of course, the sad thing about this is no matter what people say, people like me will continue to whine back at them, insisting that they're simply stupid, and need people like me to tell them how to play their game.

 

Then, why are you responding again? You're doing the same thing. But, in regard to Bioware's plans, it's really not up to anyone here. From what I've heard, there was a post where it was said that it'd be considered down the line somewhere. What I've yet to hear from all of you nay-sayers, is how this would effect you. Could you please enlighten me, and everyone else for that matter? Why does it matter to you so much if people have the ability to change their advanced class? No one's holding a gun to your head, forcing you to do it. You can stick by your guns to the bitter end.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Sigmundr

[Velr]

Hm... I see like 0 reasons to ever allow this?

 

1: It's made clear that this decision is important and permanent.

2: You get told what you will become.

3: It takes like ~3 hours to "powerlevel" to lvl 10.

4: If you could swap between all the speccs there would be no point in classes alltogether.

5. Just no.

 

I mean... If you roll a Rogue in WoW you aren't suddenly complaining that you are not a Mage.. Right? RIGHT? God I hope you don't...

As for the the AC's not being very different from each other anyway: LOL... Try Imperial Agent or whatever it's called on Republic.. Sniper vs Operative is night and day....

 

 

But the main problem seems to be that people are not capable of reading. No one can help you there.

[Sigmundr]

Hm... I see like 0 reasons to ever allow this?

 

1: It's made clear that this decision is important and permanent.

2: You get told what you will become.

3: It takes like ~3 hours to "powerlevel" to lvl 10.

4: If you could swap between all the speccs there would be no point in classes alltogether.

5. Just no.

 

I mean... If you roll a Rogue in WoW you aren't suddenly complaining that you are not a Mage.. Right? RIGHT? God I hope you don't...

As for the the AC's not being very different from each other anyway: LOL... Try Imperial Agent or whatever it's called on Republic.. Sniper vs Operative is night and day....

 

 

But the main problem seems to be that people are not capable of reading. No one can help you there.

 

0/10. You didn't bother reading any other posts in this forum.

[Velr]

I read your post.

 

But i did not bother to answer to stupid qq.

 

 

You complain that you roll a class.. Play it for 30 hours+... Then say that you didn't like it and now want to swap to a diffrent class.

 

 

Thats stupid QQ and nothing more.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Velr

[Sigmundr]

I didn't really read what you said, I instead used my 13 year old logic, and assumed any argument, no matter how valid didn't matter.

 

0/10 again.

 

Edit; If you read my original post, you'd know I'm not here to complain, but rather push this debate from the other side. I brought my own experience with the game into the mix to legitimize my own claims. There are too many people like you on here who look at an argument and say "lol qq" because you're really just incapable of coming up with an intelligent response.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Sigmundr

[Vinge]

Well I'm currently playing both a mercenary (lvl 38) and a powertech (lvl 25). I enjoy playing them both because they are completely different gameplay experiences, the same way I've previously enjoyed playing different but similar classes in other games (e.g. a swashbuckler and an assassin in EQ2, which used a similar system - both specialised classes within the overall rogue archetype, the same way merc and PT are specialised classes within the BH archetype.)

 

So I sure hope they don't decide to change the entire basis of the current class system and make it possible to switch between Advanced Classes, cos it would make one of my characters absolete.

[Sigmundr]

Well I'm currently playing both a mercenary (lvl 38) and a powertech (lvl 25). I enjoy playing them both because they are completely different gameplay experiences, the same way I've previously enjoyed playing different but similar classes in other games (e.g. a swashbuckler and an assassin in EQ2, which used a similar system - both specialised classes within the overall rogue archetype, the same way merc and PT are specialised classes within the BH archetype.)

 

So I sure hope they don't decide to change the entire basis of the current class system and make it possible to switch between Advanced Classes, cos it would make one of my characters absolete.

 

I definitely agree that the different advanced classes play differently. However, it's my opinion that the overall difference between these Advanced Classes are too small to consider them completely different classes. Instead, I see them like specializations. You're still a X class at the end of the day, using 60% of X classes' abilities, and even sharing one of their talent trees. To use the hated WoW reference; A holy Paladin plays differently from a protection Paladin, but at the end of the day, it's still a Paladin. Continuing on with that reference; You're able to switch between a retribution Paladin for DPS, a holy Paladin for healing, and a protection Paladin for tanking at will. No one is asking to change from a Jedi Knight to a Trooper here. The only thing that's been asked is the possibility of completely respecing your base class.

 

My main point has been, throughout several posts, that the information provided when you select an advanced class is insufficient. Someone who's new to an MMO may not know what they want to do, role wise. They might go with whatever sounds appealing based on what little insight into the class is shown at the selection screen. There's no way to actually try that spec to it's fullest extent, and therefore that leaves the possibility that it isn't going to be what you're after. The issue with that is this; You won't know until late game, much like my situation.

 

What I don't understand is why some people are so vehemently opposed to a feature which by all means wouldn't really effect them. Noone said it'd be avaliable all the time, or would be free of any negative consequences. To my knowledge, people just want the OPTION to change without having to re-roll a character.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Sigmundr

[Vinge]

I definitely agree that the different advanced classes play differently. However, it's my opinion that the overall difference between these Advanced Classes are too small to consider them completely different classes. Instead, I see them like specializations. You're still a X class at the end of the day, using 60% of X classes' abilities, and even sharing one of their talent trees.

 

My main point has been, throughout several posts, that the information provided when you select an advanced class is insufficient. Someone who's new to an MMO may not know what they want to do, role wise. They might go with whatever sounds appealing based on what little insight into the class is shown at the selection screen. There's no way to actually try that spec to it's fullest extent, and therefore that leaves the possibility that it isn't going to be what you're after. The issue with that is this; You won't know until late game, much like my situation.

 

What I don't understand is why some people are so vehemently opposed to a feature which by all means wouldn't really effect them. Noone said it'd be avaliable all the time, or would be free of any negative consequences. To my knowledge, people just want the OPTION to change without having to re-roll a character.

 

The trouble with that argument is that this situation is no different to the majority of other class-based MMOs that have been around in recent years - in pretty much all of them the same has true, that you never really knew how a particular class would actually play until you got fairly high level. Yet other class-based games have never allowed people to change classes if they did get high level and decide it wasnt the class for them.

 

And allowing switching between ACs would affect me, as I've already said - it would make one of my characters redundant and mean I'd wasted time levelling both a merc and a PT.

 

Having said all that, I do think that having something like a one-time-only way to switch ACs, perhaps involving a long questline and/or massive expense, would be a reasonable idea.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Vinge

[Sigmundr]

The trouble with that argument is that this situation is no different to the majority of other class-based MMOs that have been around in recent years - in pretty much all of them the same has true, that you never really knew how a particular class would actually play until you got fairly high level. Yet other class-based games have never allowed people to change classes if they did get high level and decide it wasnt the class for them.

 

And allowing switching between ACs would affect me, as I've already said - it would make one of my characters redundant and mean I'd wasted time levelling both a merc and a PT.

 

Having said all that, I do think that having something like a one-time-only way to switch ACs, perhaps involving a long questline and/or massive expense, would be a reasonable idea.

 

I edited my post to account for this before I saw this post, but I'll put it here, too.

 

"To use the hated WoW reference; A holy Paladin plays differently from a protection Paladin, but at the end of the day, it's still a Paladin. Continuing on with that reference; You're able to switch between a retribution Paladin for DPS, a holy Paladin for healing, and a protection Paladin for tanking at will. No one is asking to change from a Jedi Knight to a Trooper here. The only thing that's been asked is the possibility of completely respecing your base class."

 

Also, I understand that it would indeed affect you, in which one of your characters would become pretty useless. On my end of things, without it, my gameplay experience is somewhat ruined, as I don't have the time to dedicate to leveling multiple characters. I do agree with your solution, though. As I said before, It's not something that I think should be available at all times, like a change on the fly system, but rather as a system to improve gameplay for people who did come across the same issue as me, or for the level 50 who wants to experience the other side of their class without having to re-roll and go through the same story again for a change in specialization.

 

Edit: I've also got to thank you, it's very refreshing to have a reasonable, civilized discussion in which both sides have points which are acknowledged rather than ignored.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Sigmundr

[Velr]

You seem to mainly have 2 points in your "argument".. Which I hardly would call an "argument":

 

Your first point ins answered really simple:

Stop bringing up Paladins (and Druids), there is no Heal/Tank/DPS hybrid in SWTOR. Don't bring them up. You can bring up Shamans, Priests and DK's if you want which can fill 2 roles as most SWTOR classes can. I never saw people seriously complain about DK's not being able to Heal or Shamans not being able to Tank... let alone Priests, for many it was allready to much that they can do good DPS .

 

Your second point:

Yes, you don't know how a class will play later, you don't know that at lvl 10 and you don't know that at lvl 30... You will never know this until you hit the Endgame. That's just how it is, it's like that in basically every game ever. Be it an MMO, FPS or racing Game. While "leveling" you won't know which mechanic in the end will dominate your class... You'll get "hints" during play but your never sure.

Hell, as an operative I got my "opener" stealth-attack at lvl 36... You get stealth at lvl 10! I would argue that this is a pretty class defining ability yet you don't get to play with it until pretty late.

 

Your problem is:

You rolled a class and after some time found out, that you don't like it's mechanics/graphics/whatever. Well, that’s too bad for you. But I don't see how this is the Class-Systems fault and I don't see how making you able to change the advanced class would fix that. What If the other AC is also not for you? Do you demand a way to become a Sith-Assassin then?

 

 

I have a lvl 18 Sniper which I don't play anymore because the cover system feels stale to me and only being able to DPS forever seemed a little one dimensional ---> So I rerolled something Different.

Now I have a lvl 18 Mercenary which I don't play anymore because I did not like the rockets, I wanted to shoot blasters ---> So I rerolled something Different.

Now I have a lvl 38 Operative and I'm happy with it and it for sure will be my first 50.

 

Before I bought the game I never ever even considered operative (well, I did not consider much at all because it was a very spontaneous purchase)

[Sigmundr]

Pretentiousness in condensed form.

 

Die.

 

Your first point ins answered really simple:

Stop bringing up Paladins (and Druids), there is no Heal/Tank/DPS hybrid in SWTOR. Don't bring them up. You can bring up Shamans, Priests and DK's if you want which can fill 2 roles as most SWTOR classes can. I never saw people seriously complain about DK's not being able to Heal or Shamans not being able to Tank... let alone Priests, for many it was allready to much that they can do good DPS .

 

I only bring up the WoW references, because it's quite literally all you people throw around, almost as if WoW is the be all, end all of MMOs. My point is you can switch between specs in WoW, nothing more. With Advanced classes being so absolutely far from being the 'unique' snowflake that you try to make them out to be, I just don't see why we can't experience both sides of a class without having to sit through 30 hours of the same story. Like I've said before, not everyone can dedicate the time to level several characters.

 

Your second point:

Yes, you don't know how a class will play later, you don't know that at lvl 10 and you don't know that at lvl 30... You will never know this until you hit the Endgame. That's just how it is, it's like that in basically every game ever. Be it an MMO, FPS or racing Game. While "leveling" you won't know which mechanic in the end will dominate your class... You'll get "hints" during play but your never sure.

Hell, as an operative I got my "opener" stealth-attack at lvl 36... You get stealth at lvl 10! I would argue that this is a pretty class defining ability yet you don't get to play with it until pretty late.

 

Then people really have to stop acting like the paragraph description that's presented at the advanced class selection window is some sort of massively helpful thing. It doesn't really give you much insight into the class, and therefore it is a fallacy to say "Well lol should've read the class description derp derp derp".

 

 

Your problem is:

You rolled a class and after some time found out, that you don't like it's mechanics/graphics/whatever. Well, that’s too bad for you. But I don't see how this is the Class-Systems fault and I don't see how making you able to change the advanced class would fix that. What If the other AC is also not for you? Do you demand a way to become a Sith-Assassin then?

 

This is another thing people really have to stop doing. ACs are nothing more than specializations. It is NOT even remotely similar to asking to change from a Bounty Hunter to a Sith Inquisitor. I never said the switch shouldn't have consequences either; I figure an AC switch should be a one time thing, that's massively expensive. So if you still aren't having fun, then you're out of the money, and out of luck. But to answer your question; I've got a friend who's got a PowerTech at level 50, and they were kind enough to let me play it for a few hours the last time I was over at their house. I found it to be vastly more enjoyable than my Mercenary.

 

 

I have a lvl 18 Sniper which I don't play anymore because the cover system feels stale to me and only being able to DPS forever seemed a little one dimensional ---> So I rerolled something Different.

Now I have a lvl 18 Mercenary which I don't play anymore because I did not like the rockets, I wanted to shoot blasters ---> So I rerolled something Different.

Now I have a lvl 38 Operative and I'm happy with it and it for sure will be my first 50.

 

See, here's the issue. I'm level 40, and have already put in a lot of time to get this character to where it is. It's easy to re-roll at level 18, because that took a grand total of maybe 5 - 7 hours. I'm taking this character to level 50, because I want to experience the rest of the story line regardless of how I feel about PvP, and Endgame content with this spec. I still won't enjoy those things. That's why I want the option to explore the other AC. It would be easy to implement a system where you can do a one-time AC change at level 50. That's what I'm asking for, not a "lol I feel like tanking today, healing tomorrow, and DPSing all of next week" change at any time deal, like WoW.

 

Also, yeah. All you do is spam tracer missile, and that's just the worst thing ever.

 

Before I bought the game I never ever even considered operative (well, I did not consider much at all because it was a very spontaneous purchase)

 

Operatives are f*cking excellent.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Sigmundr

[VanorDM]

ACs are nothing more than specializations.

 

You are completely and totally wrong about that. They are classes, they are completely different from each other.

 

The difference between a Seer and Shadow is much bigger then the difference between a Warrior and Paladin, so stop trying to claim something that is simply untrue.

 

Even the shared trees aren't really the same thing, they function differently because the two classes function differently.

[Dinoviking]

It's hardly like the paragraph description is the only definition of the classes that you get. There are a number of methods to know what the classes are all about.

 

1. In your Codex, under the Game Rules section, there is a fairly well written description of the difference between the 2 ACs and what they are designed for.

 

2. The NPC that sends you to the trainer gives you a brief rundown of the ACs and what they are for.

 

3. There is that descriptive paragraph that the trainer gives you.

 

4. You can always come here to the official website and look them up. Decent information here too.

 

5. The class forums on the site are also a good source of information

 

6. There are a number of third party sites, as well as Youtube videos, that can give a ton of details to those willing to take the time.

 

7. Before choosing an advanced class the trainer allows you to see ALL FIVE TALENT TREES IN THEIR ENTIRETY. That would seem to be a pretty good indication of how a class works.

 

And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. Basically, if you are either unwilling or incapable of making an informed decision about your advanced class, that's your own fault, and you should not be rewarded for it. Laziness, stupidity, obstinance, and a childish sense of entitlement are not a valid reason to change such a fundamental part of the game. Choices should have consequences.

 

You are asking the developers to hold your hand and baby you. You are asking them to tell you that you can do whatever you want, and, if you end up not liking it, they will just push a button and fix it for you. You are asking for there to be no consequences for choices made. If they were to cave to this kind of nonsense, eventually every decision made in game will be undoable, nothing will ever have any consequences, and nothing will matter anymore. What you are asking for is the first step to making the game meaningless.

 

And, since you continually insist on bringing up WoW, I will say that it is this exact ame attitude that has that game in the sorry state it is today. I love WoW, and will always love WoW, but I just can't play it anymore because of whiney, childish, entitlement junkies like you. I don't want to see that happen here.

 

TL;DR - The game is fine. The choice is fine. The information is there and easy to get. It is you that has failed.

[PainOfDemise]

Just another whiner that wants things to go his way after screwing up after "much consideration".

 

You're the one who messed up. Don't blame other people, just blame yourself. It's amazing how many people just cannot live up to their own mistakes.

[Baklap]

I've been playing the Imperial Agent for a few days now. At level 10, after much consideration, I decided to go operative over sniper because it seemed like a cool class that snuck around and then stabbed people. However, after awhile I decided that operative was much too slow and had pitiful damage output, so I just thought to myself "well I tried out operative and didn't like it, I should probably go sniper". That's when I found out that YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE YOUR ADVANCED CLASS. Why wouldn't Bioware let players change their advanced class. At this point I was level 18 and if I wanted to go sniper I would have to repeat about 3 days of work. I have loved this game so far, but this is the first major issue that I have run into. I hate myself for saying this, but WoW did it better.

 

I play operative at level 50 and am always first, the burst damage and dmg output is massive. I beat every class in 1 on 1, so no worries about the class sucking. Sniper is superslow and immobile so, u got it all wrong.