6.0 Play your way is a pipe dream

[DarthSpuds]

Do the majority of subscribers participate in NiM OPs?

 

Do the majority of subs participate in Ranked arenas?

 

(Honest question).

 

Because they would be only ones motivated by such a decision. Everyone else would instead be irritated by it.

 

Bioware have already admitted that a very tiny minority of players do Nim OPs. IIRC it was less than 10%.

 

In the MMORPG industry as a whole only, approx, 25% of players "raid" and 25% of players engage in PvP - AND crucially there's a roughly 50% crossover between those two groups.

 

Meaning hardest tier end-game group PvE and ranked PvP together only really account for 37% of total players.

 

 

All The Best

[Lhancelot]

Meaning hardest tier end-game group PvE and ranked PvP together only really account for 37% of total players.

 

Even if this math is 100% correct, 37% is a large portion of the population. I don't think people realize how significant that is. But I don't need math to prove what I already know.

 

By making PVP less enjoyable and not bothering to cultivate the once thriving culture of PVP on this game by minimalizing the worth of lowbies/mids queues for PVP they have essentially crippled a portion of the game.

 

Math isn't needed to recognize the state of the game now, compared to 3-6 years ago.

[DarthSpuds]

Even if this math is 100% correct, 37% is a large portion of the population. I don't think people realize how significant that is. But I don't need math to prove what I already know.

 

By making PVP less enjoyable and not bothering to cultivate the once thriving culture of PVP on this game by minimalizing the worth of lowbies/mids queues for PVP they have essentially crippled a portion of the game.

 

Math isn't needed to recognize the state of the game now, compared to 3-6 years ago.

 

37% means roughly two-times as many players don't engage as do engage.

 

That is NOT a large portion of the population, it IS a minority - a significant one, but still a minority - you are correct, we don't need maths to prove that.

 

And I am not saying ignore those players, and their needs and wishes for the game.

 

I am saying don't over emphasize how important they are to the game - they are a minority.

 

I have been subbed to SWTOR for roughly 80% of the time the game has been running.

I also purchase CC now and then when I want something specific.

I have never once done a NiM OPs; in fact I think I've only ever done three or four OPs total.

I have only engaged with PvP enough times to unlock the Companion in Knights Of.... (whichever one it was).

 

 

Why is it my financial contribution to the game should be rewarded less than that of other players?

 

All The Best

[Lakemine]

EXACTLY

The way I read his post, "people who work 40 hours a week and are more sufficient at their job deserve the same amount of money that people who work 20 hours hours of week make" Its ludacris

 

The way I understood it as, the guy who worked 40 hours gets the item week one, where as the guy who worked 20 hours cant get for another 2-3 weeks. Seems fine to me.

 

And remember, were talking about gear or tac items, those should be available to EVERYONE. Titles, achievements, mounts and the challenge, that should stay where they are.

 

Ie: Someone does a NIM op and they get full BiS gear in 1-2 weeks. For someone else who doesn't do NIM, it takes them 4-6 weeks to get the same level of gear. But the NIM person got achievements, mounts and titles, that the other person will never get, unless they go and do NIM also. That seems fair and balanced to me.

[Lakemine]

That is beside the point. If some play modes get unique rewards, then it isn't "play your way", however much they may or may not deserve having unique rewards. Different discussion entirely. Your use of the word "Elitist" instead of Elite set the tone for your post nicely

 

(And greater usually means more, not better. We can be pretty sure ranked and NiM will have greater rewards, and apparently better as well.)

 

I think "play your way" is about gear acquisition, not specifically rewards. Gear should be able to be gotten for every player, either through OPs, fps, pvp, ranked, heroics or crafting. But rewards for those specific content, should stay that way. ie: the 244s that drop in NIM, should be able to be got (at a vendor or crafted) by every player, but the titles should only be gotten by the people who actually play the content.

 

I think that is a good concept.

[Lakemine]

I didnt quote my self and yes, SWTOR is a video game but psychological factors play into video games just like real life. If you want better things in real life, you have to work hard for them. Your not going to afford a big house or an expensive car unless you invest time into things. This ideology will work in video games as well. I dont see the problem with rewarding players who participate and work harder in "more difficult and time consuming content" recieving better rewards. lol

 

Rewards =/= gear.

 

Agreed that people who play harder content should have "better" shinys, but not gear. Tac items are gear.

[Lakemine]

This "Elitist versus Casual" theme is common in many MMOs, and has been prominent in SWTOR many times in the past.

 

Each group obviously wants access to the best items, because, well, that's the whole point of the game. It basically comes down to a few things:

 

1. Who deserves the items?

 

Do "elite" players deserve better gear? This common fallacy makes me laugh. This would be the case for progression where top gear is needed for MM raid completion. However, if the only place to get top gear IS in the MM raid, then obviously you don't need it to beat it. Elite players need to be honest. I want the gear because I want it, not because I need it.

 

Do casual players deserve to be at top combat rating? It depends on whether you want them as paying customers to feel they've reached the "goal" or not. No one feels great having the "Pretty Good" gear. So not getting it eventually/ever is a great way to get people to quit your game.

 

2. Does not having the best items result in a non-enjoyable or negative gaming experience?

 

In PVE, this would arise if people are kicked out/kept out of content due to not having the best gear. I haven't experienced this in SWTOR PVE personally, and with a friendly guild, there are options for playing OPs on SM and MM without top gear.

 

In PVP, it's hard to say. The current iteration of PVP doesn't really seem to affect you if you don't have top gear significantly. The gap isn't huge, so skill can bridge it (except where ranked premades ruining regs is concerned.) However, in the past, this was not the case. Does anyone remember PVP grinding on new toons 3 or 4 years ago? The point is, percentage based stats on Tacs may provide a slight advantage or a HUGE game-breaking advantage when used together with teammates, we don't know yet. Queues prove that getting stomped just means dead queues.

 

3. What is the financial mindset behind the items?

 

Does obtaining the items by keeping them locked behind the highest-skill level content benefit the game financially?

 

This may be the case if it drives a large portion of people to keep playing and playing to get geared up. On the other hand, if it makes a majority of your playerbase say, uh, why am I even trying to get 262 if it's only second best and I'm never going to be able to get 270 anyway? then there may be a financial problem.

 

Only the devs really have the answers.

 

I agree. And it is saddening to me that when I started pointing this out (in multiple games, I had only been playing online games for about 2 years, been playing online games for about a decade now), people would scream, yell, insult or kick me from discords, vents, teamspeaks, groups and even guilds because I asked a question.

[Collec]

for me its a pitty, that long time players have no advantage. I played this game hard, since 8 years, i did each hard quest to get items to earn advantages. but allways the new ones get bolstered , and u think; uhhh we have to care about new player

 

If we are talking about pvp alone, gear shouldn't matter. You already have advantage over new players, knowing your class and other classes. New players have to learn those. Ok some might know something from YoTube videos or some streams...but it's one thing just watching, another is playing it.

 

And you do need to think of new players, becaue vets of this game are so jaded with it already. For new players I'd even say that this is a great game. Tons of stuff to do and everything is new to them. Every story,fp,operation,heroic,wz,arena,gsf, space pew pew on rail missions.

 

It would totally ruin game for new players,if they were let's say in gear 204 vs your 248 or even 258. Again for pvp gear should be equal playground. For PVE they should work for it, but even if they get close to best gear or whatever I have no problem with it.

 

It would be cool, if we also get news on what is going to happen to Command Crates, Command Packs (green,blue,purple), Unassembled Components and Command Tokens. Either let us know,they won't matter and use them before 6.0 or keep them and play the rng like we did with Ossus gear. Or if we have Command Crates,Command Packs and all that...will we lose them with 6.0 or what.

[Lhancelot]

37% means roughly two-times as many players don't engage as do engage.

 

That is NOT a large portion of the population, it IS a minority - a significant one, but still a minority - you are correct, we don't need maths to prove that.

 

And I am not saying ignore those players, and their needs and wishes for the game.

 

I am saying don't over emphasize how important they are to the game - they are a minority.

 

I have been subbed to SWTOR for roughly 80% of the time the game has been running.

I also purchase CC now and then when I want something specific.

I have never once done a NiM OPs; in fact I think I've only ever done three or four OPs total.

I have only engaged with PvP enough times to unlock the Companion in Knights Of.... (whichever one it was).

 

 

Why is it my financial contribution to the game should be rewarded less than that of other players?

 

All The Best

 

If by minority you mean the smaller population compared to the PVE perhaps true, that doesn't minimalize the impact of the "minority" being **** on for 3+ years.

 

Game shows the results no need for me to hash over what you and me both know.

[TrixxieTriss]

By making PVP less enjoyable and not bothering to cultivate the once thriving culture of PVP on this game by minimalizing the worth of lowbies/mids queues for PVP they have essentially crippled a portion of the game.

 

This sums up the pvp issue in a heart beat. Good post Lhance

[robertthebard]

If by minority you mean the smaller population compared to the PVE perhaps true, that doesn't minimalize the impact of the "minority" being **** on for 3+ years.

 

Game shows the results no need for me to hash over what you and me both know.

 

While the population may indeed be an issue, looking at the numbers, and considering that PvP only accounts for around half of the given statistics, I'd say it's not as impactful as you're trying to claim. PvP servers were the first casualties in the "merge wars", because they were ghost towns, even a week after a merge. It's why we don't have a pure PvP server now, it wasn't worth the money to keep one running.

 

Queue times have been an issue for as long as I've been here, it's not like long queues, or no queues are a new problem. Fleet chat has had "queue for xxxx" spam for as long as I've been here, and I've seen the same person/people spamming it for hours, since I've been here. These factors tell me one thing: PvP was never as popular as the people that do play it would like to believe. There are people who enjoy it, to be sure, but it's not something that, if BW were to divert all their attention to it, foregoing everything else, would keep the game running.

[TrixxieTriss]

Bioware have already admitted that a very tiny minority of players do Nim OPs. IIRC it was less than 10%.

 

In the MMORPG industry as a whole only, approx, 25% of players "raid" and 25% of players engage in PvP - AND crucially there's a roughly 50% crossover between those two groups.

 

Meaning hardest tier end-game group PvE and ranked PvP together only really account for 37% of total players.

 

 

All The Best

 

Only one question here. How do you know they are swtors figures? I’ve seen no Bioware source say that is the case in swtor. I’m not say it isn’t, but you are assuming a lot with those numbers and no hard facts.

 

I remember a Bioware dev or Musco, sorry can’t remember which, who said the pvp community in swtor was the most permanent part of the players base.

While other people would come and go based on new content being released, pvpers stayed between those periods and kept playing without unsubbing. At least that was the situation before 5.x.

If I had to guess, I doubt that’s still the same because Bioware have systematically devolved pvp and driven players away since 5.0 was released.

[DarthSpuds]

If by minority you mean the smaller population compared to the PVE perhaps true, that doesn't minimalize the impact of the "minority" being **** on for 3+ years.

 

Game shows the results no need for me to hash over what you and me both know.

 

But you are not using logic there.

OK, so PvP and "Raids" has been underwhelming, affecting approximately a third of the population.

PvE has been pretty damned underwhelming too, affecting approximately two-thirds of the population.

Which has the greater effect?

 

Yes game population is down, and from what I see still declining.

Player happiness (apart from recent enthusiasm about Onslaught) is low.

This affects "casuals" just as much as the 37% who do PvP and NiM-OPs.

 

You think only PvP players have been **** on for three years?

 

The last 24 months have seen normal, non instance PvE nerfed through the floor just to balance PvP for the minority that complain the most, about almost anything.

 

For them (you) to now claim they have had it so hard so everyone else must suffer through Onslaught is as misguided as it is entitled.

 

I want everyone to get something worthwhile out of Onslaught - but as a casual, primarily solo player (and I am very, very far from alone in being so) I see almost nothing for me and my kind except more Grind than everyone else, and more RNG than everyone else.

 

Meanwhile PvP and NiM-OPs players get the short-cut to everything again, because apparently they don't have the skills to grind it out like I do and need "welfare assistance" to gear up for end game.

 

All The Best

 

All The Best

[sharkfishman]

The way I understood it as, the guy who worked 40 hours gets the item week one, where as the guy who worked 20 hours cant get for another 2-3 weeks. Seems fine to me.

 

And remember, were talking about gear or tac items, those should be available to EVERYONE. Titles, achievements, mounts and the challenge, that should stay where they are.

 

Ie: Someone does a NIM op and they get full BiS gear in 1-2 weeks. For someone else who doesn't do NIM, it takes them 4-6 weeks to get the same level of gear. But the NIM person got achievements, mounts and titles, that the other person will never get, unless they go and do NIM also. That seems fair and balanced to me.

 

This is a very reasonable ratio, IMO.

[Delani]

Only one question here. How do you know they are swtors figures? I’ve seen no Bioware source say that is the case in swtor. I’m not say it isn’t, but you are assuming a lot with those numbers and no hard facts.

 

I remember a Bioware dev or Musco, sorry can’t remember which, who said the pvp community in swtor was the most permanent part of the players base.

While other people would come and go based on new content being released, pvpers stayed between those periods and kept playing without unsubbing. At least that was the situation before 5.x.

If I had to guess, I doubt that’s still the same because Bioware have systematically devolved pvp and driven players away since 5.0 was released.

 

Biowares population is at an all time low because they cater to story players too much. Majority of the PVPers and PVers quit the game and the few that are left have been permanent. Which baffles me because why would you invest all your resources into a story that only requires one months sub rather than trying to build the permanent part of the player base? Its sad and yea that guy is most likely just making up numbers.

[DarthSpuds]

Only one question here. How do you know they are swtors figures? I’ve seen no Bioware source say that is the case in swtor. I’m not say it isn’t, but you are assuming a lot with those numbers and no hard facts.

 

The numbers come from a "industry survey" that Turbine carried out when decided where to invest what little development funds they had for LOTRO.

 

They contacted many different game companies and anonymised the data to get an industry average.

 

I am reasonably certain one Bioware poster mentioned just how few players play NiM-OPs content, and it was IIRC below 10%.

 

All The Best

[DarthElation]

The numbers come from a "industry survey" that Turbine carried out when decided where to invest what little development funds they had for LOTRO.

 

They contacted many different game companies and anonymised the data to get an industry average.

 

I am reasonably certain one Bioware poster mentioned just how few players play NiM-OPs content, and it was IIRC below 10%.

 

All The Best

 

Could be many reasons for that. How many concurrent players do nim ops v.s. current totals? How many players are capable of doing nim ops vs people that aren’t?

 

For players that stay subscribing vs people that don’t- what % of both groups are actual raiders? For people that play the game hardcore v.s. people that don’t- what % are raiders from each group?

 

What’s the % of people that run NIM content vs those that haven’t run NIM content that want to?

 

Are nim ops player numbers the way they are because content has been so stale? And if so, how do these numbers compare to games that are as content stale vs those that aren’t?

 

Do games with the highest hardcore raider counts also have the largest of populations? Do games with low raider populations also have low overall server populations? What about just the current raider % populations in a game like WoW.

 

How much money & development time went into raid development v.s. other areas of the game? How does this data compare to how other mmo’s prioritize content development?

 

What about an MMO gameplay structure with no raids. How do those server populations fare compared to SWTOR?

 

I work with metrics every day and you have to consider everything. Rarely something “is” or “isn’t” behind the “justification” of a blanket statement.

 

In reality swtor is very hard to compare to other games because the game is so different from others. Most of it’s development focus ‘overall’ went into the story & voice acting which isn’t common for others in the industry. Metrics are more of a guidepost.

Edited June 2, 2019 by DarthElation

[DarthSpuds]

Could be many reasons for that. How many concurrent players do nim ops v.s. current totals? How many players are capable of doing nim ops vs people that aren’t?

 

For players that stay subscribing vs people that don’t- what % of both groups are actual raiders? For people that play the game hardcore v.s. people that don’t- what % are raiders from each group?

 

What’s the % of people that run NIM content vs those that haven’t run NIM content that want to?

 

Are nim ops player numbers the way they are because content has been so stale? And if so, how do these numbers compare to games that are as content stale vs those that aren’t?

 

Do games with the highest hardcore raider counts also have the largest of populations? Do games with low raider populations also have low overall server populations? What about just the current raider % populations in a game like WoW.

 

How much money & development time went into raid development v.s. other areas of the game? How does this data compare to how other mmo’s prioritize content development?

 

What about an MMO gameplay structure with no raids. How do those server populations fare compared to SWTOR?

 

I work with metrics every day and you have to consider everything. Rarely something “is” or “isn’t” behind the “justification” of a blanket statement.

 

In reality swtor is very hard to compare to other games because the game is so different from others. Most of it’s development focus ‘overall’ went into the story & voice acting which isn’t common for others in the industry. Metrics are more of a guidepost.

 

Well if, as you claim, you work with metrics everyday you'll know what an average is.

 

Which is why I never claimed anything specific about SWTOR in relation to those averages.

 

 

 

 

All The Best

[Joonbeams]

Bioware have already admitted that a very tiny minority of players do Nim OPs. IIRC it was less than 10%.

 

In the MMORPG industry as a whole only, approx, 25% of players "raid" and 25% of players engage in PvP - AND crucially there's a roughly 50% crossover between those two groups.

 

Meaning hardest tier end-game group PvE and ranked PvP together only really account for 37% of total players.

 

 

All The Best

 

I'll assume the numbers above are accurate for the purposes of this response (they seem high, but I trust DS ). If these numbers are in fact accurate, I assure you that 37% of a the base is a very large and meaningful number. Alone, 37% is such a substantial number that any business would be insane not to allocate a robust array of resources to serving that population, whether it's clothing sales, TV content, fast food, etc.

 

But even moreso, a business, studio, content creator, etc. wouldn't just look at 63% vs. 37% in the abstract. If 37% of the population is engaging in the "stickiest" and "most lucrative" type of content, then that's an additional reason to focus resources toward that group (even if that content is more expensive to produce). For example, if these groups (the 37%) are more likely to keep long term subs, buy microtransaction items, publish guides, run guilds, provide dev feedback, log in more, play longer, etc. then they are likely to be more lucrative/value-added to the business than any other group. They are literally driving revenue to the venture in so many different ways, more than justifying the investment.

 

Lastly, it is also quite likely that the 63% would pay their money for a wide variety of different types of options, so long as some basic needs were met. If the 63% are likely to pay regardless, but the 37% is only likely to pay if the game delivers the content they are looking for, then this is another reason (additional to, but also separate from the above) to focus substantial resources here. If you have an opportunity to capture 63% regardless of what you put out, then from a business perspective, it really only makes sense to focus resources on capturing that remaining third of population (again, even if it's at a higher customer acquisition cost)...

[sharkfishman]

I'll assume the numbers above are accurate for the purposes of this response (they seem high, but I trust DS ). If these numbers are in fact accurate, I assure you that 37% of a the base is a very large and meaningful number. Alone, 37% is such a substantial number that any business would be insane not to allocate a robust array of resources to serving that population, whether it's clothing sales, TV content, fast food, etc.

 

But even moreso, a business, studio, content creator, etc. wouldn't just look at 63% vs. 37% in the abstract. If 37% of the population is engaging in the "stickiest" and "most lucrative" type of content, then that's an additional reason to focus resources toward that group (even if that content is more expensive to produce). For example, if these groups (the 37%) are more likely to keep long term subs, buy microtransaction items, publish guides, run guilds, provide dev feedback, log in more, play longer, etc. then they are likely to be more lucrative/value-added to the business than any other group. They are literally driving revenue to the venture in so many different ways, more than justifying the investment.

 

Lastly, it is also quite likely that the 63% would pay their money for a wide variety of different types of options, so long as some basic needs were met. If the 63% are likely to pay regardless, but the 37% is only likely to pay if the game delivers the content they are looking for, then this is another reason (additional to, but also separate from the above) to focus substantial resources here. If you have an opportunity to capture 63% regardless of what you put out, then from a business perspective, it really only makes sense to focus resources on capturing that remaining third of population (again, even if it's at a higher customer acquisition cost)...

 

Lol. That's a lot of suppositions.

 

At any rate, the devs have the data, and we never will.

[TrixxieTriss]

The numbers come from a "industry survey" that Turbine carried out when decided where to invest what little development funds they had for LOTRO.

 

They contacted many different game companies and anonymised the data to get an industry average.

 

I am reasonably certain one Bioware poster mentioned just how few players play NiM-OPs content, and it was IIRC below 10%.

 

All The Best

 

Ok, but youve thrown pvpers into that mix too. Where is that info coming from?

[Costello]

I want to believe this is going to work.

 

I want to believe they are going to say screw balancing. We will allow you to play your way, customise your gear how you like, we will bring back more options with character builds through expertise, bring in racial abilities and really allow you to build your character how you want! We all know certain games do approach character builds more like this with a wide range of abilities and passives you can use.

 

I want this to be the case, I also want lots of content and meaningful story and my companions coming back in a big way.

 

But sadly, seen too many of these style posts where in theory it looks good and then in practice its implemented horribly, barely doing a fraction of what it sets out to do and generally screwing things up further. Where you create a culture of further elitism, where outside the 'desired' content of ranked and master mode ops you have to use Charles points as everything else drops 2% chance for increased crafting node by 1. While nobody wants you in the group unless you have that must have tactical, there is even less customisation and the Charles point conversion is so bad its either a full time grind (all over again) or just sad so it go and play something else. Which most people have said sod it play something else.

 

Will there be enough new content to facilitate this new grind or even playing your way is it 10% new content 90% rerunning dailes, and old flashpoints, and old operations and old warzones which we all ran add infinitum to get characters to 300 galactic command which is now being wiped.

 

How many times can you think you can get people to run the same old content for the next fraction of a carrot to possibly converted into the must have gear to be considered viable.

[Costello]

The numbers come from a "industry survey" that Turbine carried out when decided where to invest what little development funds they had for LOTRO.

 

They contacted many different game companies and anonymised the data to get an industry average.

 

I am reasonably certain one Bioware poster mentioned just how few players play NiM-OPs content, and it was IIRC below 10%.

 

All The Best

 

I remember Charles and Eric both stating in live streams that a very small percentage of players do the NiM content, at one point it was not considered viable to add the GotM NIM because simply not enough people bothered with that content. It was Keith who reversed the decision to get rid of it as stated by Matt, who said that the only reason it was being worked on was Keith, which suggests it wasn't because over whelming demand by the player base and financial sense.

 

As for PvP I know Cryptic said of Star Trek Online, if they lost every single PvPer then it would make no difference to their profits. Now its a different game and I am sure other games would fold if they lost every PvPer (i.e. battle royal style games).

 

So they have to look at what draws people to the game. Is it that its Star Wars, then is it the lore and the story or is it teaming up with the opposing faction to play Hutt Ball that sells Star Wars. Is it the story and the dialogue system, if so is getting in a pug and working through trial and error to complete mechanics on a boss fight what draws people in.

 

They have the metrics, did the summer of PvP bring in more players than Kotet? Did more players play through Ossus story or NIM Gotm. And at this point what will bring people back and get them to invest in that new mount, saber and outfit. I can't help feel that if you are looking to bring people back you don't want to focus on the top tier content, cause if you have quit and gone elsewhere even if that appeals you can't just jump into it you need to re-gear up , possibly find a guild and learn the new mechanics or tactics.

[Noerra]

...

 

For example, if these groups (the 37%) are more likely to keep long term subs, buy microtransaction items, publish guides, run guilds, provide dev feedback, log in more, play longer, etc. then they are likely to be more lucrative/value-added to the business than any other group. They are literally driving revenue to the venture in so many different ways, more than justifying the investment.

 

Lastly, it is also quite likely that the 63% would pay their money for a wide variety of different types of options, so long as some basic needs were met. If the 63% are likely to pay regardless, but the 37% is only likely to pay if the game delivers the content they are looking for, then this is another reason (additional to, but also separate from the above) to focus substantial resources here. If you have an opportunity to capture 63% regardless of what you put out, then from a business perspective, it really only makes sense to focus resources on capturing that remaining third of population (again, even if it's at a higher customer acquisition cost)...

 

This has already been tested by Carbine on Wildstar, where that 63% was left rotting with "basics" and focus was on making that top end content. That game went down faster than you can say "literally driving revenue". Crashed and burned.

 

Those 63% are not some silent humble group of nobodies keeping the game funded for those who want to do top end content. They also have long term subs, make guides, give dev feedback, run guilds and buy microtransactions as much as your average raider does (who knows, maybe even more?). Those are the people whose money is needed to keep the game running at all and they should never be treaten as "happy with basics, let's focus on high end" second class citizens. Unless you want to tank your game on purpose.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I don't know about these made up statistics. 58% of people reading this now agree.

 

I think it comes down to: do you endgame or not? With endgame being an activity that requires -- or prefers -- you to be max level. If so, what sorts of endgame activities do you participate in? I think you'll find there are a lot of crossovers. Very few people participate in only 1 piece of endgame.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller