Unassembled Components in 6.0

[Metthew]

I also thought about arguing for a flat bolster that allocated set stats to each AC (better if it was a set of base stats with a certain amount of universal/tertiary stats that players could allocate as they saw fit and store it the way we story appearances, which can be edited in rest areas). but no. that's asking way more than the current crew working on this game can cost effectively do...assuming they could do it at all (even with a much larger overhead, this game was horrible at balance and reacted very slowly to such issues).

They COULD do it. Or even better, they could just have a screen with a fixed stat base + an pool you can allocate between different stats, and enforce those stats in Warzones / Arenas. That sort of thing CANNOT be that hard to program.

 

They are adamant about having gear progression in pvp too. Only a few months ago they made that plainly clear in a post to us. It’s why I am trying to find a middle ground that will fit their philosophy of needing gear progression and our needs for skill vs skill pvp.

We might as well not acquiesce while we're brainstorming about our ideal method in gearing. Edited February 28, 2019 by Metthew

[Akevv]

Y'all lost your minds with 5.10. Whomever thought that going back to Ossus over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over an over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over was a good idea, is a moron. Its not fun, and it has nothing at all to do with the system that existed before it. IF 252 items drop from crates, its at a rate so low that they may as well not. We've been playing 5.10 for months now, and I've yet to get a single 252 item from a crate.

 

Gearing isn't difficult. If EA absolutely insists that random chance for gear is 'fun', then please for the love of god, make a system that the duplicates can be turned in for stuff we actually need. Gated progression is fine. Getting the same **** over again, with no way to get the correct items, isn't. Also, locking items to a specific piece of gear (a mod only fitting into a leg piece for instance) is a dick move.

[Going]

I feel like main income for any currency to obtain pvp gear should be obtained via pvp content.

[Storm-Cutter]

I feel like main income for any currency to obtain pvp gear should be obtained via pvp content.

 

Exactly this.

 

UCs is fine. BiS bought with UCs is fine, unless you fix bolster to be = BiS, and make sure it works completely evenly.

 

We certainly don't need any new currency in the game. We really don't need a new gear level either. Just make your next content more challenging for the current level of gear. FGS.

 

I think I can speak for most of us when I say that RNG boxes is a horrible way to gear up. It's certainly not exciting to get your once-a-week PvE third BoP earpiece in a row, it makes most of us want to log off, cancel sub and switch games.

 

Now that GC is dead, just give us a companion gift every time we re-hit rank 300. - Since most of us are just wasting time disintegrating everything else.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Storm-Cutter

[merovejec]

I still don't understand why you guys insist that there should be a gear grind

 

The thing here is that we are still in a MMO. The Devs will always insist on a certain grind in order to keep the player busy. The time when the PVPers had the LEAST grind was in 3.3 this is when Devs realized what was going on.

 

The price changes in 3.3 were probably the best thing that happened to PVP since the game came out. It was really easy to get ranked gear for your main, alts and multiple specs and any kind of combinations of stats, but it DID require you to play. I really am for this to come back. That would require PVP gear however.

[HaoZhao]

What is this elusive 6.0 you are speaking of ?

 

Let me spin this around, how would you want to see gear acquired via PvP in a large future update, such as an expansion? Should it be via a commendation system (UCs, PvP tokens, etc)? Should it be drops from boxes? Mission rewards? Yes?

 

As I said in another thread, discussion are actively on going on not only what new gear will look like, but how it will be acquired. So weigh in on how you see UCs in the future, if at all.

 

-eric

 

I usually don't mind a good grind at all, but the current Ossus based grind is not fun. Go back to pure galactic command where you can just gear up from doing whatever activities you like best. Also, I know you guys have been pushing crafting hard, but you have failed. Crafting is not fun or interesting. Crafting will never be fun or interesting. Please stop trying to make crafting part of the gearing up process.

 

I also wouldn't mind going back to the old expertise system, but if you go back down that road, you really need to change our characters so we can actually equip two sets of gear at once and quickly change between them. No one liked having an inventory row filled up with PVP gear that had to be switched out for operation gear.

Edited February 28, 2019 by HaoZhao

[EmanoWanga]

The time when the PVPers had the LEAST grind was in 3.3 this is when Devs realized what was going on.

 

The price changes in 3.3 were probably the best thing that happened to PVP since the game came out. It was really easy to get ranked gear for your main, alts and multiple specs and any kind of combinations of stats, but it DID require you to play. I really am for this to come back. That would require PVP gear however.

 

4000 coms to buy pvp gear and another 16000 coms to upgrade to ranked gear! That was great, fair and also kept you busy for a while till you got the coms! This would be the best way.

[HaoZhao]

I still don't understand why you guys insist that there should be a gear grind

 

It's an MMO. If there's no grind or progression, then the game is over. There's nothing left to do other than kill time. People need to have goals to work toward or the game becomes boring. Grinding is a fundamental part of any stable MMO in the long-term.

[EmanoWanga]

I appreciate the question, Eric.

 

There are three types of people in MMOs.

 

- Pure PvE people that want to do nothing but kill e-monsters for stuff

- Pure PvP people that want to kill pixelated people for fame (and stuff)

- Hybrids that dabble in a bit of both

 

In SWTOR, there is a grindy system for PvE gear. Back in the old days, there was a grindy system for PvP gear. That PvP grind was necessary because the balance team understood that each side needed their own shiney baulbel to chase. Then, at some point while I was away, that got taken away and a universal grind was introduced, on top of PvE content, for gear.

 

I can't speak for everyone so I'll speak for myself. I want to earn gear via PvP and PvP alone. I don't want my PvP gear to allow me to gear jump the pure PvE players. I want to hack and slash and pew pew my way into PvP only gear and I want that process to have multiple sets so that I can strive for, attain, and show off my (no joke) l33t skillz.

 

Pixel gear, in MMOs, is about recognition, pride, and bragging rights. In the current system, you've catered to one side of the fence. I get the "why". But, and I'm again not speaking for everyone, I don't want to have to play Starfighter to get currency to get gear that is both PvP and PvE. I don't want to run Ops and 4 man instances for currency to buy gear that is both PvP and PvE. I want to PvP for gear that:

 

- makes me a better PvP player

- make me equal to a player in greens for PvE

- isn't a step below PvE players in PvE gear that are playing PvP (why do they get the edge?)

 

You're gearing system should be built so that e-monster killers get the most out of what they enjoy the most. You're gearing system should let hybrids do both and be semi-sort of ok in their mix of mish mash gear, knowing full well that "grey" isn't a good choice but accepting that they'll get by. You're gearing system should let PvPers focus on their arena (PUN!!!) without muddying up the water - do you know how much it sucks to retool key bindings to switch between the two environments?

 

Two gearing systems is perfect and, really, the 1.0 gearing system for PvP was a dream because it was all inclusive for everyone that played the game AND it still kept PvPers out of hard core PvE content, because having Expertise on gear was a stat drawback and the set bonuses did nothing to enhance the ability to kill e-monsters.

 

Personally, this is what I would do:

 

#1 - Build two sets of armor and let PvPers go back to buying gear with warzone accommodations

#2 - Bolster DOWN to a gear level slightly below max PvE (ie, 252 or whatever); PvE players are in our arena and shouldn't have an edge in stats

#3 - Keep the Warzone Expertise buff but reduce it

#4 - Add Expertise back to PvP gear but at a rate that wouldn't exceed the current Expertise buff (when combined with the buff and gear)

#5 - Unhook PvP from all other aspects of the game BUT introduce mass amounts of achievement fluff (titles, pets, mounts, "apartment gear", etc.)

 

Please listen to this person! He is absolutely right!

[nepochop]

As the people here already mentioned getting back to PVP gear is mandatory in order to get a reasonable system for PVP gearing. You simply NEED to have a seperate way to get PVP and PVE gear.

 

People have pointed out that now you need to play Ops, GSF and PVE to get PVP gear! Its maybe a good idea to integrate all players, but still, this is not in favor of the PVPers. I know the Devs see the numbers and they maybe see that the number of PVE players went down, so in order for Ossus to appear populated they had to force PVP people to go there too. However this is not what the PvPers like to do.....

 

People mention patch 3.3 when Bioware clearly said that the grind for ranked gear was too long and only 2% of the players actually had ranked gear! They reduced the costs and then came the best time for PVPers.

[HaoZhao]

To be honest, the old 3.3 system wasn't ideal, either. I would fill up on commendations in lowbies and mids, and by the time I reached max level, I had enough commendations to go right to max ranked gear. If you're going right to max gear from the moment you hit the level cap, then that gear is just a waste of time. There's no progression, which defeats the point of having a multi-tiered gear system.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

To be honest, the old 3.3 system wasn't ideal, either. I would fill up on commendations in lowbies and mids, and by the time I reached max level, I had enough commendations to go right to max ranked gear. If you're going right to max gear from the moment you hit the level cap, then that gear is just a waste of time. There's no progression, which defeats the point of having a multi-tiered gear system.

 

PvP isn’t about gear progression, it’s about skill progression.

[HaoZhao]

PvP isn’t about gear progression, it’s about skill progression.

 

Saying this doesn't make it true. PVP isn't anymore about skill progression than anything else in the game. You think PVP requires you to learn skills and nightmare operations don't or something? In any case, like I said before, grinding and progression are a mandatory part of the game because this game is an MMO. If you want to play a game where gear is a big waste of time and just fills your inventory for the sake of it, try Anthem or something. I hear BioWare desperately needs the sales, you'd be killing two birds with one stone.

Edited February 28, 2019 by HaoZhao

[Morteficare]

Hi all. First i wana say my english isent good so dont focus on that.

I like the current way to gain gear when it comes to how you can get it by chosing pvp or pve.

What i would like to se is that every daily and weekly has a valu to gain currency to bye gear.

I would also like to see that the currency we get is legacy and not carater bound.

 

You should still be able to gain items or currency when you kill things as it is now.

I dont wana se a diffrence in gear for pvp or pve.

[Morteficare]

Ohh forgot one thing.

I liked the light vs dark event just becous we had to do almost all that the game could offer to finich it.

 

PS

Dont ad anythhing to the game that dosent work as it suposed to do like the world bosses on Ossus or the flying thing (i hate it)

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Saying this doesn't make it true. PVP isn't anymore about skill progression than anything else in the game. You think PVP requires you to learn skills and nightmare operations don't or something? In any case, like I said before, grinding and progression are a mandatory part of the game because this game is an MMO. If you want to play a game where gear is a big waste of time and just fills your inventory for the sake of it, try Anthem or something. I hear BioWare desperately needs the sales, you'd be killing two birds with one stone.

 

Me saying it doesn’t make it true. The fact that leaderboards exist does. Ranked is the end game for PvP in the way that Operations are the end game for PvE. PvE operations are built with Gear checks in mind. PvP is built with skill in mind. More skilled players climb the leaderboard ladder. It has nothing to do with gear at all. You could take all gear away and PvP would still be about who could out maneuver the enemy best. If you took all gear away from PvE, you literally couldn’t complete the operation gear checks.

 

Just because YOU claim that that’s not how it works doesn’t make it so, I can apply the same logic you did in reverse. As far as this being an MMO, what’s your point? I can point to various MMOs which have a gear grind for PvE and NO gear grind for PvP, in fact, some even opt to just equalize stats so that PvPers can purely focus on the skill portion of PvP.

 

 

And by skill progression, I mean this. Anyone can do NiM operations with enough time learning mechanics. It’s literally a scripted set of fights with gear checks.

 

PvP is dynamic, it’s not scripted and players vastly more skilled than you will make you look like a fool. The only way to get better at PvP is to literally improve your mechanical and technical skills. All you need to know to pass an operation is the scripted mechanics and your rotation.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[HaoZhao]

Me saying it doesn’t make it true. The fact that leaderboards exist does. Ranked is the end game for PvP in the way that Operations are the end game for PvE. PvE operations are built with Gear checks in mind. PvP is built with skill in mind. More skilled players climb the leaderboard ladder. It has nothing to do with gear at all. You could take all gear away and PvP would still be about who could out maneuver the enemy best. If you took all gear away from PvE, you literally couldn’t complete the operation gear checks.

 

Just because YOU claim that that’s not how it works doesn’t make it so, I can apply the same logic you did in reverse. As far as this being an MMO, what’s your point? I can point to various MMOs which have a gear grind for PvE and NO gear grind for PvP, in fact, some even opt to just equalize stats so that PvPers can purely focus on the skill portion of PvP.

 

You are objectively wrong. The fact that a gear grind objectively exists in the game, right now, proves that you are wrong. It's not a hypothetical. You can log into the game and clearly see that the developers intentionally implemented a gear grind into PVP. My views are based on objective facts. Yours are based on feelings. Don't take this post as disrespect because that's not my intention. Take it as an opportunity to reflect on your thoughts.

 

You're asking me to ignore the plain facts and reality of the game. I'm asking you to acknowledge the intentional design choices made for Star Wars: The Old Republic. See the difference?

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

You are objectively wrong. The fact that a gear grind objectively exists in the game, right now, proves that you are wrong. It's not a hypothetical. You can log into the game and clearly see that the developers intentionally implemented a gear grind into PVP. My views are based on objective facts. Yours are based on feelings. Don't take this post as disrespect because that's not my intention. Take it as an opportunity to reflect on your thoughts.

 

You're asking me to ignore the plain facts and reality of the game. I'm asking you to acknowledge the intentional design choices made for Star Wars: The Old Republic. See the difference?

 

The question of this thread is LITERALLY: How would you guys like for us to improve gearing for PvP?

 

That very premise implies that there may be a better way to gear for PvP than what currently exists. So stating that “this is how it is in game now, so that’s how they want it” is moot, when they are literally asking how they can change the system for PvPers.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[HaoZhao]

The question of this thread is LITERALLY: How would you guys like for us to improve gearing for PvP?

 

That very premise implies that there may be a better way to gear for PvP than what currently exists. So stating that “this is how it is in game now, so that’s how they want it” is moot, when they are literally asking how they can change the system for PvPers.

 

Your claim is that PVP is built around skill and not gear. I'm telling you that it's both, that gear was always an intentionally designed part of the PVP experience, and that the proof of this is in the game.

 

When you said that PVP was built around skill alone and I responded by telling you saying that doesn't make it true, I was telling you that all evidence on the subject points to you being wrong.

Edited February 28, 2019 by HaoZhao

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Your claim is that PVP is built around skill and not gear. I'm telling you that it's both, that gear was always an intentionally designed part of the PVP experience, and that the proof of this is in the game.

 

When you said that PVP was built around gear alone and I responded by telling you saying that doesn't make it true, I was telling you that all evidence on the subject points to you being wrong.

 

If you want proof that PvP has nothing to do with gear, it’s pretty easy. Duel someone of the same spec and advanced class, you using 258s and the enemy, preferably a top 96 player using 248 or 242 gear. Let’s see how relevant gear is in the outcome where there’s a skill disparity.

 

Now let’s do the same experiment with PvE. Put you and someone else of the same advanced class and spec in the same team in a NiM operation, you wearing 258 and your opponent, preferably a top player from Failure or any other end game guild in 242s. No matter how much skill they have over you, they won’t meet the simple dps checks because their gear LITERALLY doesn’t provide enough stats to pass the gear check for a NiM op.

 

However in PvP, the actual max DPS that gear provides doesn’t matter relative to the skill of someone when knowing how to place a stun at the right time. How to manage your enemy’s resolve bar. How to kite and LoS to mitigate damage while doing damage. How to bait out DCDs and force the enemy into certain spots on the map.

 

It’s two entirely different types of content with two entirely different requirements for success. I have to assume that you are not an end game PvP player because the fact that this is even debatable is self evident. Even BioWare has stated that they want the focus to be on getting better in warzones and not on grinding gear, check the 3.3 dev blog.

 

But if you want to keep having this circular argument, that’s fine too. I’m not even trying to argue or offend, but I’m coming from the perspective of a previous NiM raider as well as end game ranked PvPer. I know both sides so I know for a fact that they aren’t even in the same ball park when it comes to requirements to excel.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[varietasplus]

I am against bringing expertise system back and making PVP gear inferior to PVE gear for several reasons.

 

1. As a PVPer, I don't need an edge over PVE players in open world PVP, but neither do I want to be at a disadvantage. Top tier gear is a top tier gear, no matter which path you chose to get it.

 

2. Every once in a while we get new storyline. I don't want to struggle completing it because my PVP gear with base stats and expertise is worse in PVE environment than a former middle tier PVE gear.

 

3. I hate Bolster ever since it was introduced because it has always been injust and overcomplicated. Instead of bolstering slots to a given tier with flat numbers regardless of current gear equipped, it has given absurd results all the time. PVE gear bolstered better than a former set of PVP gear, 230 purple relic bolstered better than a 246, or even empty slots were bolstered higher than most gear. It is stupid, simplify Bolster or reintroduce Recruit PVP gear.

 

4. Finally, you need to understand that PVE and PVP requires different set bonuses. It was extremely stupid to unify it. Even a PVPer felt happy when they got their 1st, 2nd and 3rd set bonus on their gear, because those weren't marginal and served as real incentive to get. To the matter of fact, they need different utilities as well, but that is a different topic.

 

5. PVP section should not serve PVE gear progression at all. Ever since launch has there never been this ammount of noobs/terribads in warzones, arenas and GSF. 50-60% of players in every battle are totally clueless and makes everyone frustrated. This is not the way to introduce players to new type of content. And this is a developer failuire both in term of gear grind and the lack of tutorial.

 

6. On a final note: there should be a secondary reward system for both PVEr doing PVP stuff or PVPer doing PVE content occasionaly. They won't get enough tokens to make a good use of from these rare occasions, so let them exchange those for credits at a fleet vendor. But not for PVE/PVP tokens! Only exception would be GSF: that should contribute to PVP gear progression.

Edited February 28, 2019 by varietasplus

[merovejec]

Your claim is that PVP is built around skill and not gear. I'm telling you that it's both, that gear was always an intentionally designed part of the PVP experience, and that the proof of this is in the game.

 

When you said that PVP was built around skill alone and I responded by telling you saying that doesn't make it true, I was telling you that all evidence on the subject points to you being wrong.

 

I am sorry to say but you will not win this battle. PVE fights have specific mechanics, which can even be tricked. There are dps checks where you simply need a gear rating to be able to do it, cause the class and spec simply does not manage more dps output, its not possible, no matter how skilled you are (unless you trick it somehow).

 

In PVP you can have more stats (gear) than you enemy but if you do not have the skill you will fail. If you cannot manage you cc breaker, offheal, kite, LoS, burst when needed etc, you will lose. For example using stuns in PVE is totally minimal, but in PVP its a key element. That also goes for the cc breaker, lift/sleep and so on.

 

What people in PVP have been trying to achieve from start is that there is no gear in PVP and everyone is equal so it only comes down to skill. That situation hasnt been here till now I think. The devs do not want this cause they think (i think it too) that PVP would get boring over time to the players. They however say otherwise, but we simply dunno.

 

The fact still remains that PVP is completely different than PVE. The enemy player does not simply follow a dps rotation everytime he engages someone, there are many ways on how he can approach a fight, based on the enemies class, spec and even how he guesses his skill.

[TUXs]

Your claim is that PVP is built around skill and not gear. I'm telling you that it's both, that gear was always an intentionally designed part of the PVP experience, and that the proof of this is in the game.

 

When you said that PVP was built around skill alone and I responded by telling you saying that doesn't make it true, I was telling you that all evidence on the subject points to you being wrong.

Absolutely true! Which is why they need to have PvP reward the same gear that PvE does.

[xMaranathax]

I agree with your 3 points but this.

 

Why do we need 3 sets of pvp gear? In the past we had 2 sets of pvp gear and it worked perfectly.

 

All we need is 2 sets and for basic pve gear to bolster to a reasonable lvl while people gear up to the first pvp set.

 

3 tiers of PvP gear taking into account the "Recruit-like" gear that you can buy with credits. It wouldn't be a true tier, just something with expertise. The first true gear would be the unranked tier, then on top of that, the ranked gear.

[Banderal]

Absolutely true! Which is why they need to have PvP reward the same gear that PvE does.

 

Personally, I think the equation is simple... *IF* we use the same gear for PvP and PvE, then *BOTH* PvP and PvE should award the gear, and with equal effort for equal gear.

 

I know that ranked PvP rewards the rep needed to buy top gear, but that also makes no sense to me. If I'm only interested in PvP, and ranked PvP - then I have to do ranked PvP in order to gear up to be competitive in ranked PvP. You can say "MMOs are about a gear grind" all you want (which I don't agree is a necessity, but I'm not going to argue that in general), but, IMO, *ranked* PvP, at least, should have no possible gear discrepancy at all.