Why is Bioware so silent on major gear issues from 5.10?

[olagatonjedi]

I'm still convinced that they did that to drive players out before Christmas. For whatever reason.

 

I mean .... can they really be that stupid? They have been told a thousand times that most do not want to grind. It's clear that it has to be. It's the same in every MMOPRG. But instead of reducing it, at least a little bit, it will increase.

The question is, if they do the extra to get rid of the people or if they have been hit with the shovel on their heads.

True, interested gamers will stay. The nomadic players will come and go as normal. Ultimately its unlikely to affect their bottom line.

[Sareeph]

Do you remember that PvP and PvE gear used to be kept separate? Making PvE gear restricted to NM ops had no impact on the ability to PvP.

 

Had a new 258 tier of gear been added with 5.10 that could ONLY be obtained by NM ops, and were PvP bolster made to 258, I imagine that there wouldn't be as much negative feedback.

 

Do you remember how the 5.0 gearing method REMOVED gearing by doing NM content and replaced it with an RNG madhouse of "what gear am I going to destroy today? It took months and months before they finally improved the gearing to something more palatable with 5.6.

 

And going back further, do you remember how 4.0 made the two easiest HM operations drop better gear when they were "featured" than the most difficult NM operation? On what planet was that a good decision?

 

My point being that with 4.0, 5.0 and now with 5.10, we've seen the developers doing weird things with gearing.

 

They're getting push back from players because their implementations are illogical and don't result in something that's actually fun.

 

These recent changes seem to exist for the sole purpose of "give the hamsters something to do because 6.0 is a very very very long way off". This is, of course, just a guess. But I can say with certainty they weren't trying to make a "more fun game" with these changes.

 

I do remember these times which is why I brought them up. I also remember having enough coms to totally gear up 8 toons in BiS just from playing the game I came to play and without actual effort. I remember that the 4.0 Op of the week made gearing a joke for PvE. I know that people got used to that mistake and when it was taken away, they went ballistic. Absolutely some of the issues posted were legit. But to have to work towards gearing has been part of the game from the start. Gear progression is an intrinsic part of MMORPG's. 4.0 dissolved that and now that working towards gear has been reinstituted, people have been posting blowback. Gear has always been a reward for doing content. It also get's you ready for the next stage. I was proud to be walking around in BiS pre 4.0. So too were many of my friends. The I want it now fast food homogenized mochachino world has erased that. The weird things done for gearing was 4.0 imo. I don't have a problem with working for something. Been doing it all my life. I'm certainly not going to come in and insult the very people I want to try and convince to tweak the game. That's not a strategy, it's an exorcise in futility.

 

 

My guess is that they are trying to bring the game in to alignment with things that were demanded from players in these very forums. But as always, be careful what you wish for because you just may get it. And "it" is usually not as great as was first envisioned.

[Xina_LA]

Hopefully this time they'll update the GTN filters to work with the new gearing system.

[Sareeph]

Hopefully this time they'll update the GTN filters to work with the new gearing system.

 

A worthy aspiration.

[Syal]

it's look like that Bioware know that they made a mistake about tier 5 gear grind system. But not ready to say that they were wrong and are sorry for the inconvenient !

[olagatonjedi]

QFE. He does this every time there's a gameplay change people don't like.

if you are talking about me, every change is one that someone doesnt like, so your claim is poorly made.

[kodrac]

it's look like that Bioware know that they made a mistake about tier 5 gear grind system. But not ready to say that they were wrong and are sorry for the inconvenient !

 

There was no mistake about it. They knew exactly what they were doing. Just like 5.0 and GC. They spent a year "refining" it and that's exactly what this is meant to do too. They'll take the next year's worth of updates to "refine" it just in time for the next big update that they'll intentionally half-*** in order to waste more development time with. It's a holding pattern and a subscription sucker pure and simple.

[PennyAnn]

I do remember these times which is why I brought them up. I also remember having enough coms to totally gear up 8 toons in BiS just from playing the game I came to play and without actual effort. I remember that the 4.0 Op of the week made gearing a joke for PvE. I know that people got used to that mistake and when it was taken away, they went ballistic. Absolutely some of the issues posted were legit. But to have to work towards gearing has been part of the game from the start. Gear progression is an intrinsic part of MMORPG's. 4.0 dissolved that and now that working towards gear has been reinstituted, people have been posting blowback. Gear has always been a reward for doing content. It also get's you ready for the next stage. I was proud to be walking around in BiS pre 4.0. So too were many of my friends. The I want it now fast food homogenized mochachino world has erased that. The weird things done for gearing was 4.0 imo. I don't have a problem with working for something. Been doing it all my life. I'm certainly not going to come in and insult the very people I want to try and convince to tweak the game. That's not a strategy, it's an exorcise in futility.

 

 

My guess is that they are trying to bring the game in to alignment with things that were demanded from players in these very forums. But as always, be careful what you wish for because you just may get it. And "it" is usually not as great as was first envisioned.

 

I think that asking people to work for gear is valid. I think the points you make about gear being too easy to get at many points in time are also valid, for most classes. Tanks have been difficult since they changed stats around and put defense on everything, leaving endurance off relics, etc. But they keep making crazy RNG-only gearing then walking it back, crazy "can't swap mods/enhancements" or get B-varient mods changes that they will eventually also walk back (most likely). The biggest mistake was making gear a joke to acquire. But they did that and in all their attempts to un-do that they just frustrate and anger people. Mainly because they don't communicate.

 

How many of us would be happy to hear some honesty from them along the lines of: This is intentional, and here is why. When missing the second half of that sentence, there is a drastic difference in reception from even the most reasonable among us.

 

The other bottom line, in my opinion, is how MUCH grind or work for gear is too much? Now that they have combined PvE and PvP gear (another mistake, IMHO) that question has a different answer than it used to. That plus lack of communication is why they are receiving the amount of blowback they are getting. Calling the developers "idiots" is a step too far, but much of the criticism and questioning of these changes is warranted, and should be communicated.

 

Unfortunately, Bioware has only ever been good at promising it... and not very good at delivering. When I can name one single instance of "Wow, they really listened to the player base here" in 7 years (the addition to the Rishi stronghold that came from PTS feedback)... that's not exactly a stellar track record. Plus, it resulted in them not fixing many of the bugs that still plague the PvP set up in that stronghold, which was the very reason it was even created.

 

In this case, dropping a major gearing change that adds even more grind to a system intended to add grind instead of content with nothing more than "this is intended" and then taking off on a multi-week holiday is just a bad look. The fact that they are not likely reading these forums for the feedback that they asked for is also a shame. Yes, it is unfortunate that they have to wade through all the "developers are idiots" posts that provide no helpful feedback... but if it is like every other time they've asked for feedback, there will be little indication that they didn't just flat out ignore all of it.

 

.

[TerraStomper]

About the only role that are offered BiS gear are healers. Arguably they have the fastest path to get the best gear for their role.

 

DPS have to find replacement enhancements to offset too much accuracy and not enough alacrity or critical rating found in their gear rewards. Speed of BiS gearing for them is between healers and tanks.

 

Gear rewards for tanks have too much defense, no power, and not enough endurance. The unlettered Warding mod, Immunity and Sturdiness enhancements found in all rewarded tank gear are not BiS. They need to be replaced with Warding Bs, a few Lethal Bs, and Bastion and Bulwark enhancements. Most of their relic rewards are under-performing too. This makes tank gearing the slowest of all.

[olagatonjedi]

How many of us would be happy to hear some honesty from them along the lines of: This is intentional, and here is why. When missing the second half of that sentence, there is a drastic difference in reception from even the most reasonable among us.

having played MMOs for decades now, and seeing the same behavior from nearly every MMO company at some point in their histories, i am a firm believer that nearly EVERY change that is made with some element of testing in it, and even LIVE iterations have that element, even when there is a test server available.

 

Every change is subject to evaluation of its efficacy, its public reception, its balance, its effect on long term plans, etc. All aspects are taken into account, but not weighted evenly across the board. Player feedback has a part to play, but is by no means the deciding factor that many players (the vocal ones moreso) believe it to be.

 

In addition, there is an old saying that "it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission." This ties directly into drastic changes that completely blindside a playerbase. If they are going to shake things up and implement a widely negative/drastic change that will inevitably receive negative feedback, but its a change the company feels is necessary for game longevity, then they are best suited to make the full change and walk back small parts of the change over time. In terms of collateral damage, they lose less players with the big change and small rollbacks than with multiple small negative changes. There are tons of examples of people adhering to this behavior in life, and it follows suit in the mentality if long term gaming as well.

[Toraak]

About the only role that are offered BiS gear are healers. Arguably they have the fastest path to get the best gear for their role.

 

DPS have to find replacement enhancements to offset too much accuracy and not enough alacrity or critical rating found in their gear rewards. Speed of BiS gearing for them is between healers and tanks.

 

Gear rewards for tanks have too much defense, no power, and not enough endurance. The unlettered Warding mod, Immunity and Sturdiness enhancements found in all rewarded tank gear are not BiS. They need to be replaced with Warding Bs, a few Lethal Bs, and Bastion and Bulwark enhancements. Most of their relic rewards are under-performing too. This makes tank gearing the slowest of all.

 

Some would say DPS have a quicker path as well. 746 is the lowest Accuracy needed for DPS when hitting the Accuracy cap. Yes some theorycrafters are saying to use 5 Augments for Acc, however that doesn't hit cap (yes 1 point short, is still short, and Interuppts can still miss in Operations because of it). So using the 2 Enhancements from gloves/boots, + a stim is the lowest Acc a DPS can get while going over the cap. (Especially for DPS classes using dual weapon's because of the OH)

 

I'd admit perhaps pure PvP DPS players would still need to replace enhancements, since they do not live by the 110% Accuracy cap that PvE players do.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Toraak

[CarlGustaf]

About the only role that are offered BiS gear are healers. Arguably they have the fastest path to get the best gear for their role.

 

DPS have to find replacement enhancements to offset too much accuracy and not enough alacrity or critical rating found in their gear rewards. Speed of BiS gearing for them is between healers and tanks.

 

Gear rewards for tanks have too much defense, no power, and not enough endurance. The unlettered Warding mod, Immunity and Sturdiness enhancements found in all rewarded tank gear are not BiS. They need to be replaced with Warding Bs, a few Lethal Bs, and Bastion and Bulwark enhancements. Most of their relic rewards are under-performing too. This makes tank gearing the slowest of all.

 

I will take only the armoring for my tanks and call it a day.

For DPS specs, I take everything as offered and stick with a little too much accuracy (2 enhancement/ 1 stim) and take the healer chest. Less painful and much faster. It's a sh*tfest none the less.

[Vencentius]

I have been a long time and active supporter and of the game and I love so much about it. Usually I happily take things as they come in game and work with it, even if I might have done things differently.

 

I have never posted in the Dev Tracker Forums before, but the gearing issue has prompted me. It makes sense to me not to give gear away for nothing, but rather to work for the different pieces through the various methods available.

 

That said, binding the mods and enhancements is a difficult choice for players. As others have mentioned it limits our freedom to adapt our characters with the balance of stats we desire. Some of my main characters are balanced the way I want them with mods, enhancements, and augments. I am a professional and have other real life obligations, so I make do with the time I have to play. When a bound modification is thrown into the mix it is a point of frustration, because I cannot easily mix and match what I have for the right balance I want. Further, given the fact that the new crystal gear tokens only trickle in, this imbalance will persist for many more weeks on each character I have the time to play.

 

While I know you developers love the game too, sometimes it's decisions like this that could mistakenly give the impression that you do not play or at least that you have the luxury of not grinding like the rest of us. So overall, thank you for everything you have created in game for us including this awesome new planet, but I would encourage you to consider well the reasonability of bound gear mods.

[kirorx]

They were told about this on the PTS and ignored it then too. The only conclusion is they meant it to be this way to make the grind even harder and longer.

What they don’t realise is people are leaving because it’s a ******** decision and we are all sick of them ignoring overwhelming player feed back on BAD ideas.

 

I am certainly done logging in.

 

I am not mad, but I have been playing since launch and I feel like I have done the content.

 

I am down to running the new storylines with my 2 mains; 1 JK and 1 SW.

 

Now gearing with the new system has kept me logging in and playing my alts, because it was nice to get all my characters in some the best in slot gear, but now that the best gear is tied to such a boring grind on one planet, it leaves me with just the storyline stuff again; which is done at this point.

 

So, I am not going to cancel my sub because I want to be around for the next story updates, but gearing is no longer a part of my play and that leaves me with zero reason to play after running the short story updates.

[TrixxieTriss]

it's look like that Bioware know that they made a mistake about tier 5 gear grind system. But not ready to say that they were wrong and are sorry for the inconvenient !

 

Bioware will never ever admit they were wrong. Not in the history of the game have they said they made a mistake or apologised for anything. The cultural hubris at Bioware doesn’t allow them to even consider they ****ed up.

[Batwer]

it's look like that Bioware know that they made a mistake about tier 5 gear grind system. But not ready to say that they were wrong and are sorry for the inconvenient !

It was not a mistake, but intentional. She wanted us to work until 6.0. Unfortunately, they have exaggerated now. They do the same thing as always when something does not suit them. Silence. The holidays help them a lot. After all, you can now say that you can not do anything because of the holidays.

After the holidays, it takes a few weeks for the system to be set. Because they can't do it that easy...... *cough* It can also be that they can not change it, because there are any problems. 😒

[LordDarrack]

having played MMOs for decades now, and seeing the same behavior from nearly every MMO company at some point in their histories, i am a firm believer that nearly EVERY change that is made with some element of testing in it, and even LIVE iterations have that element, even when there is a test server available.

 

Every change is subject to evaluation of its efficacy, its public reception, its balance, its effect on long term plans, etc. All aspects are taken into account, but not weighted evenly across the board. Player feedback has a part to play, but is by no means the deciding factor that many players (the vocal ones moreso) believe it to be.

 

In addition, there is an old saying that "it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission." This ties directly into drastic changes that completely blindside a playerbase. If they are going to shake things up and implement a widely negative/drastic change that will inevitably receive negative feedback, but its a change the company feels is necessary for game longevity, then they are best suited to make the full change and walk back small parts of the change over time. In terms of collateral damage, they lose less players with the big change and small rollbacks than with multiple small negative changes. There are tons of examples of people adhering to this behavior in life, and it follows suit in the mentality if long term gaming as well.

 

You Sir have no idea what you are talking about.

But on a positive note at least we have now found the person who will turn out the lights once we are all gone.

 

Be safe

[Seterade]

Bioware will never ever admit they were wrong. Not in the history of the game have they said they made a mistake or apologised for anything. The cultural hubris at Bioware doesn’t allow them to even consider they ****ed up.

 

I actually cant believe how blind you are at times. keiths return to 3.0 pve gearing system was literaly him admiting and EA letting him that cxp was a stupid idea and they were sorry. but I guess that doesnt fit into your whole "this new system sucks and theres nothing good about it! IM UNSUBBING!"

[kodrac]

I actually cant believe how blind you are at times. keiths return to 3.0 pve gearing system was literaly him admiting and EA letting him that cxp was a stupid idea and they were sorry. but I guess that doesnt fit into your whole "this new system sucks and theres nothing good about it! IM UNSUBBING!"

 

Literally? Really?

[Seterade]

yes, for those who havent noticed outside of getting a free 252 every once in awhile there is no longer anything of value in cxp crates.

 

bolster in wzs is 252 and even for pve story mode is easy enough for most and you can gear from there. people are looking at cxp crates as the way to get 252. its not. that is just a bonus thrown in. you can and should freely disintergrate everything in crates, including the galatic tokenns... well I mean if your new to 5.x you kinda need them for pve gearing? maybe?

 

I personaly have been saving the tokens, cause I like to buy iokath recombinators (sometimes to sell them back to the vendor for credits) but the point is you can disintergrate them without really losing sleep.

 

the thing about 5.10 gearing is all Im hearing is tears. and salt. no one talks about how for the first time in 2 years wzs are skill v skill again.. and dammit Im having fun! no one talks about how it takes 6 hours of tuesday to max your weekly rep.. they just cry about having to do pve. no one talks about how MMORPGs are an eternal gear grind, from start to finish in all endgames.. they just cry that it isnt 6.0. dont like it? dont come back till 6.0, but dont spend 2 weeks on the forums telling everyone your going to unsub and everyone else should too

Edited December 24, 2018 by Seterade

[Batwer]

I have mentioned several times that I actually like Ossus very well. The story is great, even the planet. So they can continue quietly. The only thing that pissed off is the equipment system. I personally like to grind and that is also part of every MMOPRG. BUT here they overdo it.

 

I would not mind if:

1. The mods and enhancements would not be tied.

2. The 252-gear would not drop all leap years out of the pits.

3. It would give more crystals for our efforts.

We still have to grind, but it would be limited. Many players have dozens of twinks. But the system ensures we can / want to 1. equip ourselves. Because everything else would take too long.

[DavidAtkinson]

yes, for those who havent noticed outside of getting a free 252 every once in awhile there is no longer anything of value in cxp crates.

 

bolster in wzs is 252 and even for pve story mode is easy enough for most and you can gear from there. people are looking at cxp crates as the way to get 252. its not. that is just a bonus thrown in. you can and should freely disintergrate everything in crates, including the galatic tokenns... well I mean if your new to 5.x you kinda need them for pve gearing? maybe?

 

I personaly have been saving the tokens, cause I like to buy iokath recombinators (sometimes to sell them back to the vendor for credits) but the point is you can disintergrate them without really losing sleep.

 

the thing about 5.10 gearing is all Im hearing is tears. and salt. no one talks about how for the first time in 2 years wzs are skill v skill again.. and dammit Im having fun! no one talks about how it takes 6 hours of tuesday to max your weekly rep.. they just cry about having to do pve. no one talks about how MMORPGs are an eternal gear grind, from start to finish in all endgames.. they just cry that it isnt 6.0. dont like it? dont come back till 6.0, but dont spend 2 weeks on the forums telling everyone your going to unsub and everyone else should too

 

Most of us knew very early on about 5.10 gearing... and yet still ppl wasted components to gear alts they hardly ever play. Now that 5.10 hit.. they are faced with the fact that it's gonna be a painful grind and getting UC's to properly gear in time will be more time consuming than getting possibly to 258 itself....

 

Yes everyone is 252 now and PVP is fun now... for the time being at least. A lot of ppl in my PVP-PVE are close to 252 some will buy their first 258 pieces next week and 5.10 has been out for how long ?

 

It is a a matter of doing whats needed to get to your goals in game. Doing 1 daily ossus every day on a single char. is really easy and I will hit Reputation cap on tomorrow's weekly reset just by spending tokens I earned on one alt only last week.

 

The biggest problem with this system is the bounded mods and broken set bonuses. But as usual.. crying and feeling entitled to be full blown 258 in one day without having to do anything for it.. is always easier.

 

That being set... Bolster should probably be 258 or 256 at least. PVP is better with small gear gaps. At least I know that I am killing someone on merit all the time. or get killed..

 

4.0 gearing you say ? I always had to farm lowbies to death to earn tokens to buy gear for other alts.. and that was sometimes painful as I didn't feel like doing lowbies all the time to gear up other chars. You still had to frickin' grind... maybe not as much as today.. but it was still there.

 

Also.. people expecting to gear from crates in 5.10: Don't waste your time. farm Ossus , farm team ranked solo ranked.. and you will hit legend title faster and gear up in the meantime.

Edited December 24, 2018 by DavidAtkinson

[TrixxieTriss]

I actually cant believe how blind you are at times. keiths return to 3.0 pve gearing system was literaly him admiting and EA letting him that cxp was a stupid idea and they were sorry. but I guess that doesnt fit into your whole "this new system sucks and theres nothing good about it! IM UNSUBBING!"

 

Cant say I’ve ever seen any posts by any Bioware employee, especially Keith, saying they were sorry for anything or that they’ve made mistakes.

 

I also can’t remember ever hearing it on a stream or pod cast either.

 

But I am blind (literally) so I may have missed it. Please post me a link so I can get my wife to read it for me.

Edited December 24, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Ocho-Quatro]

1 - This is an intended change.

-eric

 

Patch 5.10: When Min/Max became Min/Meh?

[kodrac]

yes, for those who havent noticed outside of getting a free 252 every once in awhile there is no longer anything of value in cxp crates.

 

Seems you've missed the point. Yes, GC and crates are obsolete now and that's cool and all, but what's got people in an uproar is the mods and enhancements being tied down now. 3.0 didn't make you have to swap accuracy for accuracy. You could mix and match. There's no mod and enhancement vendors anymore either. You also weren't throttled to a singular reputation on a singular daily zone. And, no, Keith and Co. didn't literally apologize by adding more grind to the game.