Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

[Kellindell]

This just in, another Dev admits to playing Sith...

 

I have a level 45 Sith Sorcrerer that I’m playing right now and I’m really enjoying it.

 

http://www.dualshockers.com/2012/01/26/interview-biowares-cory-butler-and-the-future-of-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

 

He also admits to doing WZs. I bet he farmed Illum... you would think as the developer of a game you would want to see it succeed enough that you would play the under dog faction yourself to lessen the pop imbalance problems.

[SajPl]

So ... when is mortar volley going to get fixed ? Because somethig VERY useful for BH is nearly useless for troopers.

[MysticXombie]

So ... when is mortar volley going to get fixed ? Because somethig VERY useful for BH is nearly useless for troopers.

 

I wouldn't say its useless, but definitely not as good. Same with Full Auto compared to Unload. I slightly noticed the difference when playing my Vanguard after leveling my Mercenary to lvl 30, but just either didn't think it was that big a deal or didn't care. After leveling my Vanguard 30 somethin lvls, I read this thread and realized how much the difference actually affected me. Makes me wanna just start over and make a Powertech, since I like the Powertech/Vanguard playstyle more than the Merc/Commando.

[Trykon]

Got to bump this thread up! I wont let you have it bowels of oblivion!

[gryhmr]

So I'm not a fancy developer from a failed MMO like Warhammer, but it seems to me that when you try to make mirror classes you make them actual mirrors.

 

-same talent trees

-same abilities

-same weapons

-same dps

 

where you have them be different is only one thing:

 

-animations (not how long they take but how they look)

 

WOW NOW YOU HAVE FACTION BALANCE!

 

Instead. you guys made the SAME EXACT MISTAKE that was made in Warhammer where you decided to mess around with balance by making things different slightly for no reason.

 

- Consular versus Inquisitor is a joke since Inquisitor animations are faster. People have a full 2 seconds to react to Project when a Consular uses it.

 

- Sniper versus Gunsliger, why would you include a miss mechanic on offhand shots?! there is no Auto attack so there is no reason.

 

- Sith Warrior versus Jedi Knight, Why would the warrior get a move that knocks down and stuns. The knock down ads a full second to the duration...

 

- Bounty Hunter versus Trooper, why does the bounty hunter have a full 4% more resource and have moves that dont require that resource when a trooper does?

 

There are more but I dont have all day.

 

It was so simple and yet you guys messed it up again. Why would you put the people who just bombed a PVP centric MMO in charge of PVP for your 500 Million dollar Star Wars game?! Its baffling.

[Sylaurin]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but here's one that favors Republic.

 

Trooper - HIB is instant

 

BH - Rail Shot has a half second 'charge' time

[Kellindell]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but here's one that favors Republic.

 

Trooper - HIB is instant

 

BH - Rail Shot has a half second 'charge' time

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/gHOfwK1/rail-shot

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/egiqnSx/high-impact-bolt

 

They appear to be exactly the same to me, so I will need you to elaborate, or show some video footage. Ive never played a BH so I have no personal experience here. This is also the first ive heard of this.

[Zyillo]

Throwing all of the mirrors out of the window, in the end the person who is going to win is the person who knows how to play better. Done.

 

I killed a Marauder.

 

I'm 1-0

 

His two friends show up.

 

I CC one and burst the other.

 

I'm 2-0.

 

Intense fight with an Imperial Sniper.

 

Full rotation. Proc. Crit.

 

He casts Snipe at the very moment I cast Project.

 

His cast bar completes. Killing me.

 

Project flies through the air, killing him seconds after I die.

 

I was denied my victory 3-0. It would have been a great feat. Something I could have felt accomplished with. I could have logged out feeling like the weeks spent gear grinding and leveling and PvP'ing would have gone to something incredible.

 

Instead, I felt cheated. I felt robbed. I look back at it and LOL, but something like that could have been avoided at the character selection screen - and that's just not balanced.

[shelique]

*********** fix pvp

[Kellindell]

Hypothetical or not, that was an amazing example/illustration.

 

Thank you.

 

 

I killed a Marauder.

 

I'm 1-0

 

His two friends show up.

 

I CC one and burst the other.

 

I'm 2-0.

 

Intense fight with an Imperial Sniper.

 

Full rotation. Proc. Crit.

 

He casts Snipe at the very moment I cast Project.

 

His cast bar completes. Killing me.

 

Project flies through the air, killing him seconds after I die.

 

I was denied my victory 3-0. It would have been a great feat. Something I could have felt accomplished with. I could have logged out feeling like the weeks spent gear grinding and leveling and PvP'ing would have gone to something incredible.

 

Instead, I felt cheated. I felt robbed. I look back at it and LOL, but something like that could have been avoided at the character selection screen - and that's just not balanced.

[Kelticfury]

Do you realize that everything you wrote is driven by assumption?

 

Same goes for everything you have said in this thread.

 

Blatant paranoia and deliberately ignoring the obvious.

 

o m g all the devs play imps!?!?!111

 

Look at the videos on the media page, for every bioware dude that plays an imp there is one that plays a repub. But that must just be clever manipulation and misdirection on bioware's part.

 

I don't have the time to go through and shoot down every single argument you make, but there is a counter for each one. Good job only seeing what you want to see though.

 

have a good one, carry on with your crusade.

[nitaant]

I killed a Marauder.

 

I'm 1-0

 

His two friends show up.

 

I CC one and burst the other.

 

I'm 2-0.

 

Intense fight with an Imperial Sniper.

 

Full rotation. Proc. Crit.

 

He casts Snipe at the very moment I cast Project.

 

His cast bar completes. Killing me.

 

Project flies through the air, killing him seconds after I die.

 

I was denied my victory 3-0. It would have been a great feat. Something I could have felt accomplished with. I could have logged out feeling like the weeks spent gear grinding and leveling and PvP'ing would have gone to something incredible.

 

Instead, I felt cheated. I felt robbed. I look back at it and LOL, but something like that could have been avoided at the character selection screen - and that's just not balanced.

 

You wern't denied anything. Thats how your class is. For the delay in project you get extra damage. Learn to use it. You don't get to say 'hey look at that guy, hes supposed to be me, and he can do it! I want to too!'. They are clearly not intended to be perfect mirrors. How about the imp guy who says "we were both at the same health, we both did instant casts, I expected him to die, but he killed me and I couldn't kill him! Shock needs to be mirrored properly, increase my damage!".

 

Give it time, learn the mechanics, learn your class. They are not fools and have spent time behind this game. They could have made it cater to hardcore SW fans and made a ton of money by making a crappy mmo aimed exclusively at SW fans, but they chose to try and make a good game that appeals to MMO players as well.

[savionen]

You wern't denied anything. Thats how your class is. For the delay in project you get extra damage. Learn to use it. You don't get to say 'hey look at that guy, hes supposed to be me, and he can do it! I want to too!'. They are clearly not intended to be perfect mirrors. How about the imp guy who says "we were both at the same health, we both did instant casts, I expected him to die, but he killed me and I couldn't kill him! Shock needs to be mirrored properly, increase my damage!".

 

Give it time, learn the mechanics, learn your class. They are not fools and have spent time behind this game. They could have made it cater to hardcore SW fans and made a ton of money by making a crappy mmo aimed exclusively at SW fans, but they chose to try and make a good game that appeals to MMO players as well.

 

How does Project do extra damage?

 

You can literally STEALTH 1 second after the cast and not get hurt because of the delay.

 

If they're not intended to be mirrors then why do 9/10 mirror issues favor Empire? There used to even be skills that one would have a 60 second cooldown and the other 90 seconds, even though it's fundamentally the same skill.

[Neovag]

I'm Sith and agree with what was said about the 30 sec CD difference between IA's and smugglers. This thing about project having a 1.5 second CD being purely disadvantageous is a bit weak, though. Think about it. If I were to vanish and get shocked simultaneously, I'd take the damage but be able to get away. if I were to vanish and get projected simultaneously, I'd take the damage after vanishing and therefore have it broken, thus making it useful against stealthers. That therefore theoretically gives consulars a slim advantage over inquisitors, when facing that particular playstyle.

 

It's not necessarily logical to periodically state that it is this collection of (probably unintended) advantages in class design, that has solely caused the imbalance between factions on many servers. One simply cannot underestimate the following insightful nugget: 13 year olds love red lightsabers and evilness. There is no greater cause of imbalance than the sheer stupidity of your team mates. Some tool with any variation of Vader/Maul/Sidious in his name screaming 'lololololol I haz redsaber look at meeeeeee' is far less likely to win games than his jedi counterpart; 'I'm a peaceful protector of the galaxy and will heal my fallen comrades'. Personally, I rolled a sith because I liked the idea of having a character with a non-horrifically stereotypical english accent, for a change (people who ever rolled a Worgen on WoW will know what I mean).

 

It's not an indefensible position to claim that the jedi classes especially, have the worst of it in terms of gear, in comparison to sith. But then, that's not really the fault of the game designers, that's just Star Wars. The sith characters are far less easily identifiable, meaning the artists had more space in which to work. The Jedi are far more recognisable, due to them having far more exposure in the films, etc. Someone rolling a jedi expects to be wearing brown robes. His sith counterpart won't have the same sort of expectation of what his character will look like, due to the lack of clarity over a what a sith actually looks like, other than 'evil'.

 

TL;DR - There's no greater imbalance than the numerous immature morons who roll sith, nerfing teamwork time and time again.

[Blue]

this needs to get fixed asap

[Blue]

I killed a Marauder.

 

I'm 1-0

 

His two friends show up.

 

I CC one and burst the other.

 

I'm 2-0.

 

Intense fight with an Imperial Sniper.

 

Full rotation. Proc. Crit.

 

He casts Snipe at the very moment I cast Project.

 

His cast bar completes. Killing me.

 

Project flies through the air, killing him seconds after I die.

 

I was denied my victory 3-0. It would have been a great feat. Something I could have felt accomplished with. I could have logged out feeling like the weeks spent gear grinding and leveling and PvP'ing would have gone to something incredible.

 

Instead, I felt cheated. I felt robbed. I look back at it and LOL, but something like that could have been avoided at the character selection screen - and that's just not balanced.

 

excellent example. Sorry for your loss!

[Dhagaz]

I killed a Marauder.

 

I'm 1-0

 

His two friends show up.

 

I CC one and burst the other.

 

I'm 2-0.

 

Intense fight with an Imperial Sniper.

 

Full rotation. Proc. Crit.

 

He casts Snipe at the very moment I cast Project.

 

His cast bar completes. Killing me.

 

Project flies through the air, killing him seconds after I die.

 

I was denied my victory 3-0. It would have been a great feat. Something I could have felt accomplished with. I could have logged out feeling like the weeks spent gear grinding and leveling and PvP'ing would have gone to something incredible.

 

Instead, I felt cheated. I felt robbed. I look back at it and LOL, but something like that could have been avoided at the character selection screen - and that's just not balanced.

 

So you went 3 vs 1... killed all 3 and you feel cheated cause you died also? o.0

 

Please think about that... you went 3 vs 1 and killed all three! If you had been able to use a Medpac you would've done it and survived. Maybe the lesson here is carry Medpacs and PvP Medstims. Use them before your killing blow.

 

Honestly if people a complaining because they can't survive a 3 vs 1 encounter this is bull. Not to mention that most of the time Project seems to do more damage than Shock the SI ability every one seems to be comparing it to.

[Ganjiang]

Dhagaz, I think he's complaining more about the damage delay than actually dying. Had he been an imp instead of a repub, he would have killed all 3 and survived. Edited January 29, 2012 by Ganjiang

[Kellindell]

You wern't denied anything. Thats how your class is. For the delay in project you get extra damage. Learn to use it. You don't get to say 'hey look at that guy, hes supposed to be me, and he can do it! I want to too!'. They are clearly not intended to be perfect mirrors. How about the imp guy who says "we were both at the same health, we both did instant casts, I expected him to die, but he killed me and I couldn't kill him! Shock needs to be mirrored properly, increase my damage!".

 

Give it time, learn the mechanics, learn your class. They are not fools and have spent time behind this game. They could have made it cater to hardcore SW fans and made a ton of money by making a crappy mmo aimed exclusively at SW fans, but they chose to try and make a good game that appeals to MMO players as well.

 

You keep saying project does extra damage but where is your evidence?

 

Here is mine that they dont.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/f3D45Gn/shock

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/3aA49qz/project

 

Top end, 2199 on both.

 

If you want a hilarious read, look at the 9 comments under project.

 

You keep saying it does more damage, you are either trolling, flat out wrong or you are basing your judgement off different people, in different gear, with different ACs, in different specs.

[Kellindell]

I'm Sith and agree with what was said about the 30 sec CD difference between IA's and smugglers. This thing about project having a 1.5 second CD being purely disadvantageous is a bit weak, though. Think about it. If I were to vanish and get shocked simultaneously, I'd take the damage but be able to get away. if I were to vanish and get projected simultaneously, I'd take the damage after vanishing and therefore have it broken, thus making it useful against stealthers.

 

 

You are wrong. In theory that is how it should work, currently if you stealth while the project is in the air not only do you not get pulled out of stealth, you dont even take the project at all. So if the guy is low health and vanishes with the project mid air, he will live and get away and not die or be broken out of stealth.

 

Theoretically it should work that way, which would give project a different flavor, but in application it doesnt work that way. It is inferior in everyway.

[shadowAI]

You are wrong. In theory that is how it should work, currently if you stealth while the project is in the air not only do you not get pulled out of stealth, you dont even take the project at all. So if the guy is low health and vanishes with the project mid air, he will live and get away and not die or be broken out of stealth.

 

Theoretically it should work that way, which would give project a different flavor, but in application it doesnt work that way. It is inferior in everyway.

 

Agreed, tested this. The stone just dissappears in midair/flight and does 0 damage. Strange considering it would still fly to someone who was dead from other damage sources, but wont fly to someone who entered stealth.

Edited January 29, 2012 by shadowAI

[Dhagaz]

Dhagaz, I think he's complaining more about the damage delay than actually dying. Had he been an imp instead of a repub, he would have killed all 3 and survived.

 

I'm looking at what you guys are posting simply because if it's true I would hope that BW would correct these issues. The big problem, (maybe this could be solved by a Pub on Space Slug getting a hold of me), is that in my personal experience as a level 50 / 52 Valor Mercenary (PyroTech Spec) I've not noticed any significance differences.

 

When I meet a poorly played Conselar / Inquisitor (Sage, Sorc, Assasin, and whatever the Jedi vesrion is called) I've always rocked'em. If I met one that was played well then more often than not in a 1 vs 1 Situation I lose simply cause they can heal (Sage / Sorc) or they can just stealth away and leave the situation (Assassin, Jedi version).

 

When I meet a Imp Agent or a Smuggler whether it's the melee version or the ranged version I get stunned or kited the same. They each seem to have the same chance to kill me and I them. If they are played better than I play my Merc they win. If I play better I win.

 

Point being; it seems to follow logically that if there truly was some sort of deficiency then I would be winning consistently and regularly versus one of these classes. I do not. Now before people cry "Then L2P Noob!" I'll point out that while I am not Samuss, Kitty, or any of the other great Imperial Players I do consistently score in the top 5 per WarZone in DPS, and Goal Points. So while I do not see myself as a Leet PvPer or even in the same category of Taugrim / Faction I do believe that I am skilled enough that if a particular class was a utterly gimped as many of you seem to claim I would be able to wtfpwn it on a regular basis.

 

I'm more inclined to think that these issues stem more from us all as players not fully understanding how our classes are to be played. Perfect example is the Sith Marauder. I can't even begin to count the people that complain about how broken and weak this class is. Yet I've met several Marauders that have actually taken the extra time needed to study and understand that class, and they absolutely rock! I mean Tru (Marauder from Space Slug) consistently tops the DPS charts of any WarZone he enters. He never seems to have issues with closing, and staying in melee to kill / significantly harm his target.

 

Lastly I would like to point out my ignorance of how we are all supposed to be mirrored. By that I mean could someone please post a link to a site that has a BioWare Official Listing of what abilities are supposed to be mirrored and by what. I'm not a kid so I'm willing to admit I could be way off base. I would just like to know if BW has an Official Mirror abilities list as opposed to one made by a tester / gamer that could be incorrect.

 

In the end I do hope this issue gets cleared up. It will only hurt this game if we can't get more people to play as Republic.

[Marisblood]

Imps, if you dont like your side go Republic. I wonder after that what will u say. This game have too much bugs for Republic and none (or few) for imps, so, are Devs playing siths all of them? I think we all know the answer.

Remember wow, one of devs son liked warlok to play. Devs do everithing posible and warlok was OP for a whole 1 year. After that year they told in public they did warlok OP because one of devs son was playing that class and it was his Bday on that year and that was the present they ofer for him.

 

So, where is the profesionalism for doing your job, Devs?

Your sons play Imps too?

[xtreemgamer]

bump cause devs are being arrogant again

[Kellindell]

Those are great points, but have no bearing on this topic.

 

First off, one persons experience cannot disprove something, or for that matter prove it. You are fighting different opponents, of different levels, with different gear on different days in different matches. So many factors are involved. The only way your experience would mean anything from your PoV vs any particular class would be fighting the same player at the same computer with the same gear using the mirror of each class in a 1v1 fight against you. And to test out chance, RNG and other human factors you would have to run the fights over and over and over to get anything statistically significant.

 

The other problem is, you are looking at this from your PoV. Try playing both classes, and feel the experience for your self. See how annoying it is when you project someone and they vanish or round a corner and dont take damage VS the instant gratification that is shock.

 

Also, I dont see how you can relate these issues to any sort of skill factor involved. The statements you made about the Sent/Mar class are correct. Alot of underskilled players try to play a skill based class and complain when they see BHs spamming tracer missiles and wracking up damage and kills.

 

But if you take a skilled player, and an unskilled player and have them both player a consular, Project still has a delay and shock doesnt.

 

Your example would be if someone picked an apple, and bit into it and it was rotten, and you said "Well you dont know how to pick apples..." that apple was rotten regardless, no matter how skilled of an apple picker you are, that apple rotted.

 

The issues exist, mutually exclusive of the skill level of anyone, and we have proof of that. How you can make the intuitive steps to denying it based off player skill or lack of knowledge in a class is beyond me. The facts and data are their, these problems exist.

 

And...what could player skill have to possibly do with something like turrets in Alderaan ticking faster for sith? In what world does player skill affect that?

 

 

QUOTE=Dhagaz;2294222]I'm looking at what you guys are posting simply because if it's true I would hope that BW would correct these issues. The big problem, (maybe this could be solved by a Pub on Space Slug getting a hold of me), is that in my personal experience as a level 50 / 52 Valor Mercenary (PyroTech Spec) I've not noticed any significance differences.

 

When I meet a poorly played Conselar / Inquisitor (Sage, Sorc, Assasin, and whatever the Jedi vesrion is called) I've always rocked'em. If I met one that was played well then more often than not in a 1 vs 1 Situation I lose simply cause they can heal (Sage / Sorc) or they can just stealth away and leave the situation (Assassin, Jedi version).

 

When I meet a Imp Agent or a Smuggler whether it's the melee version or the ranged version I get stunned or kited the same. They each seem to have the same chance to kill me and I them. If they are played better than I play my Merc they win. If I play better I win.

 

Point being; it seems to follow logically that if there truly was some sort of deficiency then I would be winning consistently and regularly versus one of these classes. I do not. Now before people cry "Then L2P Noob!" I'll point out that while I am not Samuss, Kitty, or any of the other great Imperial Players I do consistently score in the top 5 per WarZone in DPS, and Goal Points. So while I do not see myself as a Leet PvPer or even in the same category of Taugrim / Faction I do believe that I am skilled enough that if a particular class was a utterly gimped as many of you seem to claim I would be able to wtfpwn it on a regular basis.

 

I'm more inclined to think that these issues stem more from us all as players not fully understanding how our classes are to be played. Perfect example is the Sith Marauder. I can't even begin to count the people that complain about how broken and weak this class is. Yet I've met several Marauders that have actually taken the extra time needed to study and understand that class, and they absolutely rock! I mean Tru (Marauder from Space Slug) consistently tops the DPS charts of any WarZone he enters. He never seems to have issues with closing, and staying in melee to kill / significantly harm his target.

 

Lastly I would like to point out my ignorance of how we are all supposed to be mirrored. By that I mean could someone please post a link to a site that has a BioWare Official Listing of what abilities are supposed to be mirrored and by what. I'm not a kid so I'm willing to admit I could be way off base. I would just like to know if BW has an Official Mirror abilities list as opposed to one made by a tester / gamer that could be incorrect.

 

In the end I do hope this issue gets cleared up. It will only hurt this game if we can't get more people to play as Republic.